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12:03 AM
I'm beginning to think that Fate is a game that only really works with intermediate/experienced players.
12:15 AM
Does anybody think that there will be any further 3.5 premium reprints?
*DnD 3.5
12:39 AM
@Emracool What do you mean?
As far as I've seen, Fate falls into a finite category of RPGs which attempts to address the fundamental question of: what defines humanity?
And for someone who's not used to the concepts of roleplaying, it can be a somewhat tricky question to grasp.
@Emracool Yeah, you're gonna have to break that down for me a bit more. What is it about Fate which focuses on that question?
Hrrrm. Let me think about this a minute. My logic is probably going to have to be long to be comprehensive.
Is it about high concepts and troubles?
12:43 AM
Well... yes and no. Aspects as a whole.
I think the best place to start is with a fundamental question: why do people play RPGs?
For contrast, let me say that I look at Fate as trying to answer the question "What makes characters interesting to tell stories about?"
I honestly think people who play RPGs want to address some fundamental question(s) about humanity as a whole. It's not necessarily the same set of questions for everyone, nor the same lens or focus, though.
@BESW That ties into this - I'd rephrase your question as "What makes people interesting to tell stories about?"
@Emracool How is that different from why we watch Doctor Who, or read Twilight, or listen to Night Vale?
(Or play Riven?)
12:47 AM
It isn't different.
I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say that all good stories are about exploring general human nature through a specific set of people.
Doctor Who, Twilight, Night Vale, Riven - these are all mediums which contain different approaches to answering fundamental questions of humanity.
That's fair, and I agree.
When I say that Fate explores the boundaries of the definition of humanity, I mean in the psychological sense.
(It wouldn't be a good game if it didn't explore multiple questions, so/and I think your question still holds true.)
12:50 AM
I guess I'd attempt to counter your question with, what makes RPGs different from Catan?
So far as I know (I've never played Catan), Catan isn't telling a story about individuals.
I look at Fate, and I see it says "people are interesting to tell stories about when they have a strong central identity which moves them to action, but is regularly opposed by some force which needs to be overcome." And then it invites us to explore the implications of that statement, how far it can be stretched and whether/where it falls apart.
But my stumbling block is where you say that people who don't have experience with RPGs will have trouble with exploring these ideas.
(I think I have an answer to why D&D is so popular, along the same vein as the rest of this conversation)
Well, I'll draw a comparison.
Let's take a first-year linear algebra student. They advance through their mathematics degree over three years, and by the time they graduate are pretty dern good at linear algebra.
But at the beginning of their first year, they probably wouldn't even know how to begin thinking about matrices and matrix properties.
12:55 AM
It would be incorrect to say that they are incapable of conceiving of these concepts, but it would be correct to say that they don't have the experience required to explore them through the lens of linear algebra.
We look around us and see, in every medium, stories about people with high concepts and troubles and secondary aspects, who get compelled and then spend their Fate points later to win. The Iron Man movies are a great example.
I agree - but there's a certain level of metacognition required for people to actively recognize that during their daily lives.
Fate tries to tell stories in ways that are already familiar to us, once it's pointed out.
And playing D&D isn't going to help recognise it; studying storytelling will.
But it also tries to answer questions which are difficult to think about if one has less practice doing so.
Fate studies storytelling.
12:59 AM
After playing Fate enough, one gets a pretty good idea of how Fate expresses critical storytelling concepts, and how it relates back to the world.
But the person who hasn't thought about the art of storytelling much might have some difficulty breaking through to the concepts expressed and explored in Fate.
@Emracool I'll agree with that.
But I'm still struggling with the idea that "for someone who's not used to the concepts of roleplaying, it can be a somewhat tricky question to grasp."
Hmm... how so?
I don't think RPGs have cornered the market on thinking about storytelling, and I do think a lot of RPGs have no interest in thinking about storytelling at all.
For example, take an accountant who's played D&D 3.5 and an actor who's played no RPGs at all. Which is going to feel more comfortable in Fate?
Yeah. Perhaps that statement makes more sense as s/concepts of roleplaying/concepts of storytelling/
1:04 AM
Yeah, I'll agree. An actor likely has a very good conception of what it means to tell an interesting story.
Or a writer, or someone who watches a lot of Star Trek.
Ahh, that's a little trickier
I think there's a distinction between consuming a medium and participating in it
Yes, but even the passive consumption of stories, given enough saturation, imparts an instinct about storytelling which a structure like Fate can take advantage of.
Good point.
1:08 AM
Though I don't know how high the transfer rate is. I know several people who have read hundreds of books and, no offence to them, really can't tell interesting or involving stories.
That's where the structure part comes in.
Instead of saying "What makes a character interesting?" Fate says "having a recurring obstacle to their goals makes a character interesting. What obstacle regularly blocks your character from achieving her goals?"
And simultaneously addresses the question: "In what ways does a recurring obstacle model humanity, and in what ways does it lead to interesting stories?"
That's really interesting, @BESW. You mentioned a bit earlier that certain RPGs don't actually explore storytelling as a whole.
I'm curious...?
1:14 AM
Well, even Fate doesn't. Fate says "Here is one model of storytelling. Let's see what it can do."
But other systems don't care about story at all, really. D&D is a great example.
D&D provides little-to-nothing in terms of structure or insight into story. It's built on vignettes, the connecting of which it leaves as an exercise to the user.
And for characterisation, it again provides nothing in terms of conflict, motive, or growth.
The most you get is alignment, which is --in addition to being confusing and badly designed-- static.
Fate does, in that it explores a facet of it that it cuts. D&D I think also actually does - it provides a framework to explore grand and powerful stories.
A huge chunk of D&D is dedicated to players going out and doing insane things for a greater purpose (or not).
But it provides no support for those stories; D&D defines growth purely in terms of capability, not characterisation.
It leaves the actual burden of storytelling entirely in the hands of the group.
That doesn't necessarily preclude it from exploring facets of storytelling, though, does it?
Well, yes, I think it does.
It doesn't keep the players of the game from exploring those facets, but they do so without meaningful input from the system.
1:20 AM
That's because by the time players sit down to play the game, the system has already input what it can.
This goes back to the old "If the GM can fix it, it's not broken" adage.
In that, the 'meaningful' input of D&D comes from the scenarios it sets up and encourages the GM to develop.
That has an effect on the story the players create.
I think that's kind of like saying that the size of your budget has an effect on the kind of TV show you can make.
(To tie back into the earlier discussion: I think one of the major questions D&D attempts to answer is, "what happens to people when they acquire too much power?" - and it's a question people like to answer. A lot.)
1:23 AM
@BESW I'm not entirely sure I agree... how so?
@Emracool I think there's a difference between questions you can explore in a system and questions the system is designed to explore--for example, the "too much power" question doesn't really come into play as much in 4e.
@Emracool All the scenario-based input D&D has to offer is "combat and traps in an enclosed space."
@BESW I haven't played 4e, honestly. The time I played it, I'm not sure I liked it as much. But that would actually explain, at least anecdotally, why certain people I know like 3.5e but not 4e.
I think that second statement is a bit of an exaggeration, though.
I'm going to have to walk away from this for a bit. I'm sick and have things I really need to do in spite of that, and it'll require all my brainpower.
No worries! My apologies.
1:30 AM
Thank you for the discussion, and do feel better!
Here's a quick thing that popped into my head: Many games/films/novels inadvertently create environments, or questions, or answers, which can be read as being about storytelling or the nature of humanity, without having any intent or conscious knowledge of doing so.
That doesn't make the insights an audience might glean any less useful to that audience, but it almost always means that the environments/questions/answers are incomplete, contradictory, or otherwise muddled so that three different audiences will have three totally different and incompatible experiences from interacting with the work.
Fate has ideas it's trying to explore, a thesis it's testing, and it creates an environment for doing so. D&D 3.5 (for example) has stuff it thinks is cool, or necessary, for its franchise experience. An environment of inadvertent questions and answers rose from the environment, rather than the environment being created as a crucible for questions and answers.
That's what I mean when I say D&D isn't interested in examining storytelling or characterisation or the nature of humanity: any questions it asks about such things are unpredictable, accidental results of its primary goals.
[stumbles away again, honking into a hanky]
@BESW "a collection of inadvertent questions and answers rose from the environment," I mean to say.
2 hours later…
4:06 AM
4:38 AM
hey folks
@Emracool Counterpoint: what if we just sit down with Fate to play superheroes, or Leverage, or something. Pure genre emulation based on a super-familiar set of tropes that we're bringing into the aspects. Where's the "humanity?"
We have the ability to cover that ground in our roleplaying, sure, but we've pretty much channeled the system into "be our storage locker for tropes and dramatic beats."
Which, I think, is largely what Fate intends to be.
I had a nightmare today, in which I was running a 13th Age game for my regular players, but they refused to ever fight anything. They'd run away or find peaceful solutions. Which is awesome, but caused me unending frustration, as we shouldn't have been using that system for such game. When asked what they were doing, they'd just shrug. I believe having GM stress-related nightmares is a new level of geekery even for me.
Yesterday I had a dream about going blind from my eyes filling up with solar radiance from the inside out or something. And then I woke up and realized I fell asleep in a sunbeam. :/
@Magician I think you're having GM-stress nightmares that are also RPG-theory nightmares, lol.
@AlexP Dreams that reflect waking world are fun to puzzle over after you wake up.
@AlexP Yeah... It's very disconcerting in a way. I think it was mostly the feeling of "you're doing it wrong and I can't do anything to change that".
@Magician That is, like, every dream ever.
On the subject of nightmares, this is my favorite description of one, from Fallen London: "You are looking out through a window at night. Candlelight near you allows you to see your reflection. You watch as your teeth begin to elongate: slowly, rather comfortably, like the growth of a tree-branch in spring."
5:04 AM
@AlexP Tropes in culture are (often) a reflection/exaggeration of already-existing cultural values or ideals.
I'd argue that a game based solely on trope is actually more so an analysis of humanity - just one which has been rehashed so many times it's become an exaggerated satire.
@BESW I'm not actually entirely sure that's true... I think part of it actually fundamentally is, "What happens when people run into too much power?" - as a result, the D&D franchise grows.
It's a question that people find fun, entertaining, and appealing to answer in as many ways as possible. ==> People like experiencing supernatural power.
@BlueBug Hi! I like your avatar.
hi man!
ty! my friend made it for me hehehehe.
5:10 AM
Your avatar is a shiny dargon.
Oh? That's awesome! :D
me from gd.se(gamedev), the room title caught my attention. You guys have funny/interesting stars. Reading through them.
ahaha yeah, the star record for this room is a wonderful read
Ack what happened.
-5 4 hours ago removed User was removed
Oh no! A user was forcibly terminated by a murderator!
5:21 AM
I lost 5 rep because "User was removed"
@BlueBug [wave] Hi!
o/ hey man! :D
I'm glad we're entertaining. Do you have any tabletop-type RPG experience?
@BESW yes yes I do! back when RPG was not a thing I used to to TRPG online chat
*was not a thing, like no computer RPG.
5:35 AM
I was something like 13, or 15. (me 21 now)
Yeah, our focus is on RPGs that don't need/require a computer to adjudicate action.
dat's sweet. I was sad when TRPG sorta got dead(it sorta died when computer RPG came, from where I am from, and now completely dead). Pleased to know that there are people keeping it.
Tabletop RPGs are actually experiencing a kind of renaissance!
If you're still interested, DarkMyst is experiencing actual growth right now.
I've been there a few times. There aren't too many adopters of modern games, but y'know, RPGs don't really expire.
5:39 AM
You'll find a lot of (A)D&D, WoD, &c. players.
I feel like the creative sparkle inside me is a bit dead now though :(. I don't think I will be able to come up with "conversation " when I play
Online publishing makes it easier for small publishers to reach wider audiences, and the lessons learned by the giants like D&D and White Wolf's Noun: The Descriptor series are being built on by a lot of other publishers.
@BlueBug Maybe it's time to turn on the gas :]
hurhurhur do you guys have like SE TRPG "game room" chat?
@BlueBug Don't worry about that too much; it'll come, or you'll find games like Microscope which don't rely on it as much, or you'll discover a third-person-narrative style of RP that suits you.
5:42 AM
@BlueBug People do play on and off in other rooms. There are chat logs of various games littered about. I haven't been here relatively long, but I haven't seen something regular yet.
Regularly scheduled games don't usually work for a variety of reasons, but if we use a simple system like Roll For Shoes or Fate Accelerated, quick one-off games are very possible whenever two or more people have the time and interest.
We've got a dice bot in all rpg.se chat rooms, which helps.
wooha dice bot. Dat's something lamemage.com/microscope wow looks cul.
5:45 AM
Microscope's one of my favorite games.
@BlueBug I'm pretty sure it only does regular polyhedra, on the first post
5:46 AM
Use the format XdY, where X is the number of dice between 1 and 9, and Y is the number of faces on the dice. These dice are available: d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, and d20. The dice bot cannot add static modifiers, but it can roll multiple types of dice at once (2d4 3d6) and if you want to roll more than 9 of a particular kind of die you can just stack them up (9d6 2d6). If you leave off the X value, it assumes 1. If you leave off the Y value, it assumes 6.
@Metool That's hilarious.
5:48 AM
d d d d d
6:44 AM
Stupid bot.
Good Morning.
Dice Service is distressingly rational.
So you don't think "edi" would work?
i is not a rational number
6:47 AM
I'm imagining a cylindrical die with circumference e, which one rolls and then reads from the top.
"I rolled a 1.4895929348240982395482, what did you roll?"
OMG. Guys. Check this out: Storium - Storytelling Game - It's... It's.. Beautiful! (Link: https://storium.com/)
@InbarRose Starred because Ursula Vernon is doing one of its settings.
[is poor]
7:09 AM
Also, I worry that this question will get picked up as a Hot Network Question, where only its title will be shown:
Q: How can I murder people and lie about it?

Ben BrockaMy character is a Halfing Rogue specializing in lying and ranged sneak kills with a concealed crossbow. With the Childlike and Pass for Human feats plus max ranks in Bluff I'm crazy good at a believable lie if I act like a child and in theory I could eat the impossible bluff check with the -20, ...

It'd certainly bring attention.
Hey, Danny Smith has a cameo on Warehouse 13! Hi, Danny!
7:29 AM
@BESW Danny Smith?
@lisardggY Why does it worry you? :P [rolls eyes innocently]
@InbarRose Merton J. Dingle on Big Wolf on Campus.
I am being saddened and frustrated by a culture clash.
Q: Hey you. Yeah, you! Post your answers as answers, not comments

Jonathan HobbsThis is a public request to all Meta Stack Exchange users. There's a certain behaviour pattern that's... not great, but common, and this is basically a request to do this differently. More specifically: it's a request to use the system as it should be used, and as it's used by every other site on...

I am being downvoted for asking people to answer the question using answers instead of comments on Meta SE.
(where people will often just leave a one-liner in a comment answering the question, and an actual answer would be no more substantial)
Not helpful, but--shouldn't that be tagged [comments]?
Ah, yes.
Q: Why do some people answer in comments?

ripper234Why do some people post comments that are actually answers to the question? Wouldn't posting an answer be better?

screw it, I'm gonna delete my question and be annoyed at Meta SE being full of BS for a while.
and sarcastic lazy assholes >:l
@JonathanHobbs It's really annoying over on English.SE where people answer in comments, usually out of a "I can't be bothered to write up a proper answer, so here it is in half a sentence".
Not sure why did you remove that nice question. — hims056 5 mins ago
ok, one comment has made me feel a lot better about this.
@lisardggY and yeah, it happens a lot on Meta SE too. I'd like it to not.
it contains enough sensible people I'm hoping this request can gain some traction.
and maybe hopefully make the people doing it consider doing it differently. or if my question doesn't do it, maybe someone they respect agreeing with me will influence them.
or something like that.
8:08 AM
I upvoted your question, fwiw. It's worthy.
8:19 AM
People are actually worried that the lack of rep-gain on Meta.SO will decrease activity there? Good!.
rep gain
I got the amount of rep I have just cause I wanted to be able to talk in chat
other than that it really doesn't seem like that big a deal
@trogdor Well, you're more the exception, rather than the rule, for StackExchange users.
I suppose so
I totally understand participation in SE sites for the rep - that's why the system exists, so people will be motivated to contribute.
But applying the same concept to a Meta site, which by definition is there to keep the Main site running smoothly, is silly.
@trogdor Whoa. Just noticed your rep count. Amazing.
8:28 AM
I also have to admit that most questions I would want to ask are asked by BESW anyway, and most answers I give are only ones I am sure are the exact correct ones
@trogdor So you're saying you're basically a symbiotic extension of BESW?
as far as SE, you have a wonderful case
as for physically, no
Hmpf. A likely story. I'll believe it when I see it.
welp, it seems unlikely :P
Hey, @trogdor, since you're on...
For the Knave Port campaign, I'm working on the lizardfolk and I figure I ought to have you be part of their design.
There are three tribes--hunters, farmers, and crafters--and I'm thinking each of them would look somewhat different. Ideas?
8:42 AM
@BESW Shouldn't this all be in your spoil lair?
Oh right- you don't want trogdor to see anything there :P
@InbarRose That would be the purpose of the Spoil Lair.
Yeah, I got it :)
I need a bit of time
watching something with my parents
8:57 AM
No rush.
Not like we're going to start it this weekend--we're going to Pågat and the cast party this weekend.
9:29 AM
I have concern for this question
Q: How can I be more descriptive about actions and events in my game?

Nameless NickWhenever I'm running or playing a game, I consistently run into an issue of setting atmosphere. I've realized the best way to do this is through more effective, engaging descriptions of settings, actions, and objects that the characters see and feel. As a player, I feel that my actions are gener...

It is great. There are nice answers - but it seems like a list question. There are too many good answers. And no absolutely right answer.
Also the OP missed a great chance for a name: Nearly Nameless Nick.
9:45 AM
Ahoy, @RRs_Ghost.
No, 315, tanks do not have the right of way.
10:04 AM
10:31 AM
@BESW mk
I do think it is quite an inspired idea to make them look different
not sure about your first 2 examples, but the spine ridges seem like a nice look for the hunters
of course, the crafters having more rounded non-spikey ridges is actually appealing too
Those are just variations to get ideas flowing.
my current thought on the farmers might be not having spines
yes I realize that
but my point being that, currently, I see one distinction between the 3 pictures that actually does grab me
Hey, @Trogdor. Long time no see.
I have kept forgetting to actually log on to see what was going on around here for a while
Aw. It got deleted before the chat caught it.
And my comment: "Sorry, this is a site for works of fiction. We aren't equipped to help with your real-life invisibility cloak problems."
Troll the trolls.
What? It's true. [innocent]
11:43 AM
Q: Should the [d20] tag be [d20-System] instead?

BESWThere's an infrequent but noticeable trend to use the d20 tag on questions about dice or critical hits or the like, despite the tag being clearly labelled as specific to the d20 System: The d20 system, developed alongside D&D 3e, forms the mechanical backbone for a variety of RPG's entirely d...

@TheOracle In Which I Ask A Banal Question.
12:00 PM
@C.Ross, @Lord_Gareth [wave]
12:29 PM
hey it said I lost 50 rep because "user was removed'
anyone know what that might mean
Happened to Metool too
@JoshuaAslanSmith I would guess the user deleted his account or was removed from the site for some reason.
shame lost rep over it
and also shame for loosing a user
Anyone on here ever ran a game on roll20?
@aaron totally
what questions do you have?
12:41 PM
@JoshuaAslanSmith Many. Right now though can I track initiative through roll20?
yes you can
one second Ill launch it up to make sure Im telling you no lies
@aaron first, this page is your new best friend, treasure it
and in your case, this page specifically wiki.roll20.net/Pathfinder
Just found out that there was a de-Amberized version of the Amber Diceless RPG released a few years back.
I wonder where my Amber Diceless book vanished off to.
@aaron so its called the turn tracker and you can launch the bubble for it by clicking on the little clock in your tool bar to the upper left
@aaron here is the page about how to use it
@JoshuaAslanSmith Cool. Got it.
There's a big RPG convention coming up in a few months (October), and a friend has started to organize a Games from the Attic spot, where people will run games using old systems that haven't been getting any love for years. I'm debating between running Amber Diceless or Castle Falkenstein. Or Gamma World 4th edition.
All games I haven't played in years.
12:46 PM
oh man
gamma world
have these cool power cards... just don't get too attached to them or your character....
@lisardggy I require that you use Hoops if you run gamma world
4th edition GW used simplified 2nd edition AD&D rules.
No power cards.
you sir are correct
I am associating 7th with 4th, in my head, because it uses d&d 4th mechanics
I had a GW campaign in highschool. I remember absolutely no details, but only that I had a lot of fun.
1:09 PM
@BESW I got sucked into youtube browsing how puzzles are done at exactly this point of the backlog and lost track of time and forgot to prepare lunch ._.
@Zachiel The internet diet! Find and browse interesting things on the internet and forget to eat! Loose pounds like never before!
@Aaron But mom didn't want to lose weight!
@Zachiel The internet diet! Loose weight willingly or not!
...and I didn't want to be told how lost I am
1:21 PM
My parents often tell me I seem to live in my own world
like last time it was me not knowing at what time shops close.
and it looks like in their mind this could all be solved by going outside more and spending less time browsing the internet
My idea is that I'd be pretty "lost" anyway, not noticing things that don't immediately concern me. Before the advent of the Internet my best chance for knowing if some shop was still open was to go looking in person, or just wait the next day and go there when I was sure it was open.
@Zachiel That is what I did.
@Zachiel being a roleplayer does not help
...like if every shop had the same closing times... >_>
@Zachiel there are tricks to awareness, and going outside can be a very good thing
@C.Ross I'm sure going outside is a very good thing - I'm also sure I'm growing disillusioned about the real utility of just aimlessly wandering around hoping I meet someone who actually wants to talk to me.
@zachiel you could be people watching to up your RP gaming abilities
1:28 PM
@Zachiel that's the wrong way to go about it. Just observe.
your in italy right? just sit at a cafe and sip on some delicious coffee beverage of y our choice
exactly what C.Ross said, even just viewing other people (in a legit, no creepy way) can make you feel more tied to your community.
@besw Desert Bluffs can't do anything right
You got me into nightvale right? maybe? Am I crazy? just listening to it now
sorry if I just shook you ot of something
Oh. I haven't actually listened to Night Vale, despite following its Twitter.
@JoshuaAslanSmith no, no they can't
1:34 PM
ooooh you totally should
Mm. Audio-only media is a struggle for me to process, so I don't do it much.
@besw you put nightvale in my mind and I guess it was @waxeagle and/or @JonathanHobbs who posted the youtube link
I was thinking something more along the lines "the desert rolls bluff to make you think there's an oasis just ahead."
lol nice
Desert Bluffs is the rival town near Night Vale
the announcer is always giving digs to them especially when sports are involved
@JoshuaAslanSmith yeah Desert Bluffs and Steve Karlsberg are his favorite whipping boys
he hates on them as much as he dreams about Carlos
1:41 PM
@JoshuaAslanSmith I'm stingy. Even supposing I liked coffee, I try not to buy things at cafe, pubs or similar places because it's just cheaper to get them in a shop. Which makes me the kind of guy that only goes to pubs when his friends are there, and guiltily orders something fried just for the owner to recognize you as a legit client and then guiltily think at how this is spending anyway and for a worse reason after all. <_<
I know, I'm sort of a lost case
Carlos with the perfect hair
@zachiel I'm just saying there is value both to you and to others for you to be in the world even in the smallest of ways such as people watching. You could got to a public space like a park or piazza and do the same for free, bring a book, or some music to listen to and just relax and take it in
Haha, I just realized one of the reasons I don't often go outside is that I fear my laptop would melt down if I were to chat or play or read from it in the sun.
sounds like a prison... FOR YOUR MIND
that obviously is just about being more out in the garden, not in the streets
1:45 PM
Having a hobby that consists in writing some wordy text taking 6-10 minutes turns might be a bad thing for me
6-10 minute turns?
thats crazy sauce
@lisardggY rpg.stackexchange.com/q/36885/5841 ? (You are a Ars Magica fan, maybe you know similar games)
@JoshuaAslanSmith Well that actually gets worse during combat, but it's not my problem. I'm not a fighter in that game XD
@aaron any other questions about roll20/
@InbarRose Yeah, I saw it, but it didn't ring a bell.
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