TRPG General Chat

Julix

00:14

hello

BESW

Hey.

Julix

I'm currently having fun making up characters for the hell of it

and I just discovered the ratfolks - and how they can both be in the same square and be considered flanking an enemy

now I was wondering when two ratfolks share a medium sized mount they're in the same square but conceptually they can't be flanking the way I imagine they would on the ground

"Swarming: Ratfolk are used to living and fighting communally, and are adept at swarming foes for their own gain and their foes' detriment. Up to two ratfolk can share the same square at the same time. If two ratfolk in the same square attack the same foe, they are considered to be flanking that foe as if they were in two opposite squares."

any thoughts?

d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-ratfolk

BESW

Not really--the system you're using wants to advocate realism and common sense intuition in order to resolve these things, but it's actually built as a mechanics-first procedural system with a thin realism enamel.

Julix

right, but that's where GM'ing comes in - would you allow this or is that cheese?

BESW

By putting two ratlings on a horse you've chipped the enamel, and now you have to decide: You can patch it up and use "common sense" to determine what is possible, but that opens you up to being persuaded to allow really silly things if the person who benefits from them is sufficiently eloquent; or you can rely on the mechanics, trusting that the developers know what they're doing in terms of system balance and when unrealistic are technically possible there's a good reason for it.

Neither of these is an acceptable policy, because I could name a half-dozen instances where the devs obviously have no idea what's best for their game; but if you rely on what "makes sense" instead of the on the mechanics, then ALL the d20 mechanics quickly get thrown out the window because none of them really make sense together.

Julix

00:23

I'm not sure I trust the developers on this one, as they have another conceptually exploitable rat trait: "Cornered Fury: Ratfolk can fight viciously when cut off from friends and allies. Whenever a ratfolk with this racial trait is reduced to half or fewer of his hit points, and has no conscious ally within 30 feet, he gains a +2 racial bonus on melee attack rolls and to Armor Class. This racial trait replaces swarming." A sniper hiding 30 ft away from his party is in no way "cornered".

Or make a rat berserker with earplugs and some kind of goggles that give a penalty to perception so he can't ever know if his friends are down, but instead has tunnel vision on the enemy in front. :D - after every successful battle he is so relieved and surprised when his friends are still alive... hahahha

BESW

So as a GM in 3.5 (which is sufficiently PF-like that I think this is still useful), my policy on "cheese" was: "Anything you can break, NPCs can break better. But they won't until you do."

@Julix Here's the thing about that kind of power: the mechanics don't say anything about being cornered.

Julix

Right, only the fluff does

BESW

The name of the power is not part of the rules which describe how the power works.

Julix

if I refluff it, it could be a rat that was always an outsider and doesn't like sharing with the other rats

or was distracted by the chaotic nature of rats behaviour - and thus works best a bit away from everyone else

BESW

"has no conscious ally within 30 feet" doesn't say anything about whether the rat knows if his allies are there. Which is silly given the apparent intent, but by the exact wording of the rules...

Phil

00:28

Every time a discussion like this about Pathfinder/3.5/etc comes up it reaffirms why I never touch any of them with a barge-pole :o)

Julix

@Phil :D

BESW

One reason I abandoned 3.5 is that the rules and mechanics are not carefully written, but the game encourages a culture of careful reading.

4

Julix

@BESW right - the berserker was the fluff interpretation - the sniper the mechanical one

BESW

Your group has to decide where they stand on two scales: Literal reading of the rules vs interpretive reading of the rules, and fluff influencing mechanics vs fluff divorced from mechanics.

Julix

I hate fluff divorced from mechanics - makes me feel like the world makes less sense... ;-)

BESW

00:32

Then I'm afraid you'll be increasingly miserable in your chosen system.

Julix

Hm... Wasn't it you that said "Besides, Pathfinder is the perfect system, it can do any kind of game you want unless your GM sucks. " I don't agree necessarily, just noticed it.

BESW

@Julix Yes. I was being facetious; there is NO system which can do anything you want, and the idea that a "good GM" can FORCE a system to do whatever you want is a disservice to GMs everywhere.

Julix

haha, part of me figured, since I had talked with you before :D

BESW

Context was discussing the question about doing a low-magic game in Pathfinder.

Julix

hahaha, yeah that is possible... but it'll take staying on your GM feet and not taking anything for granted. don't use encounter tables carelessly, or anything like that at all...

BESW

00:36

We get a lot of questions about how to modify big-name, high-sunk-cost, systems to do things which are so outside their purview that you wind up basically inventing a new system to nestle inside the gutted shell of your previous system.

Julix

But wouldn't it be cool if you could? :-P

BESW

@Julix More than that, it destroys basic assumptions about the game both mechanically and in terms of setting.

Julix

If pathfinder was just the operating system...

BESW

@Julix Not really. If you want to make a new system, just make a new system that doesn't have to kow-tow to the now-obsolete assumptions of a system that wasn't designed to do what you're after.

And if you don't want to invent a new system, just find a different game that does what you're looking for.

Julix

Right...

Phil

00:38

The trouble is, ANY system you use has a set of rules, and those rules are designed with a particular gaming experience in mind.

BESW

Otherwise you're taking the most painful parts of both options.

Phil

Some are more flexible than others, but even the most flexible will still favour a particular type of game

BESW

A truly good system will admit that there are kinds of experiences it can't effectively support, and tell you what its goals actually are.

6

Phil

@BESW this

Julix

We talked about that last time, how D&D can't admit it's nieche because they need people to wrongly assume that they're the best system for their needs, to keep up sales and not get shut down

Phil

00:40

and its incredibly frustrating

because you see many new people assume its the only way to roleplay, and then bounce off of it when they find it doesn't do what they want it to

BESW

My starred comment about Pathfinder is made in the voice of one of the poor souls who have been fooled by the system's deluded insistence (which it inherited from D&D and others games like GURPS) that it's not only possible to have a Single Unified RPG System, but that Pathfinder is that System.

Julix

Do you think a SUS RPG is possible?

BESW

No.

Phil

SUS?

BESW

Single Unified System.

Julix

00:42

single unified system

Phil

Absolutely not

Every design decision, every rule makes a decision about how a system will play, and implicitly favours certain types/aspects of play

2

BESW

If a SUS were possible, it'd be so diluted, so inane, that its virtue would be in its inability to support any particular kind of play, thereby freeing the players to play anything they wanted without hinderance.

IE, the SUS exists, and it is called "free-form RPG."

Julix

hahahah :-)

Phil

heh, you got there first

faster typer than me

BESW

@Phil You'll have the edge when I'm on my tablet.

Phil

00:44

I blame it being quarter to one in the morning :op

Julix

So to get around assumptions at the beginning of play when starting a campaign, could I call my game a free-form RPG inspired by pathfinder?

Phil

O_o

Julix

no, because that wouldn't be free-form really

and assumptions are necessary for being on the same page

hurmpf

Phil

a homebrew system based on pathfinder?

so its still effectively d20

Julix

that's a much better name. :-)

BESW

00:46

Hmm.

Phil

depends on just how many rules changes you're making I guess

Julix

and then whenever I make changes I'd have to be sure to document them so I can present the homebrew rules to newbies

BESW

Here's an idea that I should probably take into meta, but I'll run it past out here first.

Julix

alright?

Phil

why don't you just choose a different system that fits your needs better? O_o

much less work

much more fun

BESW

00:47

Would the following kind of question be acceptable for this site?

Julix

@Phil cause I don't know of any that are free

Phil

Fate

Julix

I've been pointed towards Legends and I got bored after a few paragraphs

is it d20?

Phil

I'm sure there are others but I can't recall them off hand

not even close

BESW

> My group used the Same Page Tool and came up with these answers: <insert answers here>. We have X number players, our sessions last about Y hours, and we like Z kind of genre for our games. What game system should we use?

Phil

00:48

@BESW Hmmmm

Really tough one

BESW

What kind of game is Fate?

Jul 24 '13 at 7:43, 22 minutes total – 43 messages, 5 users, 0 stars

Bookmarked Aug 26 '13 at 15:00 by BESW

Phil

how much would answers still be down to individual opinions about different systems?

BESW

Also, re: Fate being free-form:

An excerpt on Fate

May 27 '13 at 12:39, 3 minutes total – 11 messages, 3 users, 0 stars

Bookmarked May 27 '13 at 12:44 by Jonathan Hobbs

Julix

:D nice, thanks. - but you mentioned sunk cost. I've read so much stuff now on pathfinder rules... sunk costs are really high :D

Phil

but if the experience you are having sucks, then it may be a fair trade off

me? I'm more than happy with Savage Worlds where you can pick up the core rules for less than $10 :o)

BESW

00:50

@Julix Sunk cost is a fallacy. A massive black hole of a fallacy that I really do understand is hard to get out of, but a fallacy none-the-less. If Pathfinder isn't working, no further amount of dedication to it will recoup the sunk costs; it'll just add to the costs without reward.

4

Phil

The ultimate thing to ask is why do you roleplay? For me its a thing I do in my spare time to have fun, and if what I'm doing is not fun then something is seriously wrong.

BESW

@Phil I think that the SPT results would provide a solid 10+ bullet point list that the answers would have to objectively (and through personal experience) address.

Phil

@BESW That's a fair point

On further thought, I don't see that much difference between your SPT question and a well formed sys-rec

BESW

Because that's the weak point in the SPT, for me: "We've got this list of what we want, but now we have to dredge through hundreds of unsorted options to find what fits our list!"

RedRiderX

Welp got S1 of Sherlock finished.

Phil

00:54

yeah. not used it myself, but I can see that being a problem

Julix

I actually sometimes enjoy the fluff/crunch issues in Pathfinder... while they're futile and pointless problems, resolving them somehow can be sort of entertaining... the arguing about evolution with a religious person kind of entertaining, but sometimes that's what I need... - for actually playing I never really run into problems ingame since the people I play with aren't munchkins and sofar I haven't let my munchkin side get into the game as GM

Phil

@Julix well then if you're having fun doing it then its cool :o)

@RedRiderX Good innit?

RedRiderX

Oh yeah

mollyhooper.co.uk/blog/30march

This site is amazing.

There isn't too much on those sites but what is there is great.

BESW

@Julix Fair enough. Worth mentioning, though, that one thing I value about Fate is that its "stunts and extras" system lets each player define their own level of crunch independent of the other PCs and without significant disruption of the party's balance.

Julix

@Phil i'm sort of having fun with it, but also judging myself harshly for the waste-of-time nature of that fun ;-) especially when there's stuff I ought to be doing, and much more "effective" ways to entertain.

Phil

00:57

@Julix slaps @Julix on the wrist

Julix

@BESW whaaaat? that sounds amazing :O - so one player can be low crunch and another high?

Phil

If you're having fun then there's no waste of time :op

@Julix exactly

BESW

@Julix yup! Each player gets a set of "game currency" that can either be used to create his own crunch rules (with the input of the rest of the group), or he can keep it to spend in-game for bonuses and effects on the fly using the game's (very simple) core rules.

Phil

Massively flexible system, although its narrative driven nature is a poles apart from d20

Julix

there sort of is... what's the point of fun? -- the good kind satisfies. at the end you feel recharged, somehow. -- the bad just makes bad feelings go away by focusing you really hard, but when it's over then you're left with an empty feeling of something missing until you continue the behaviour :-P

BESW

01:00

However, Fate doesn't really support the "lonely play" that you seem to enjoy.

Julix

I don't ever really get around to lonely play - but having all this hard crunch at my finger tips allows for mind experiments like simulating a battle given certain situation+characters w/o players

I also find the rules give constraints that can give me a push creatively - but I really haven't given non-constraining games a fair chance

Phil

@Julix Fate has rules, but they just push the game in a different direction

Julix

actually I might use pathfinder to generate crazy characters etc. and fate to actually use them -- if I ever get around to using them. ---- I always feel so busy that I don't end up starting a game (despite having access to many potential players via a quite large university club), but then I feel RPG deprived so I end up wasting time thinking about RPGs - like with making that snake headed goblin character and the image for it

BESW

From 6th Ed. Call of Cthulhu:

> The purpose of horror roleplaying is to have a good time [...] Call of Cthulhu is a vehicle for alternately scaring and then reassuring players. [...] Whether or not investigators cooperate, players should. [...M]ost of the entertainment of roleplaying is in the perceivable ingenuity of players' roleplaying.

Julix

it's true! when running the We Be Goblins one shot, as a GM I really loved it when the players where being creative.

Phil

01:12

@Julix Do you play in any games rather than GM?

@Julix For me, creative players are the best to GM for

They suit my GM style perfectly

Julix

I used to, but it was a beginning GM and we caused one another quite a lot of stress

Phil

Maybe try running pre-written adventures to get you going?

Julix

Yeah, that's what I was doing as GM sofar, and enjoyed it

Phil

so you get in the habit of running games rather than just thinking about it

I have a block about running adventures I write. I find it really tough

Julix

I do run games, but sofar just one shots because I don't have committed players because I haven't advertized running campaign games because I keep thinking I'm too busy to be a committed GM

Phil

01:14

how often do you run games?

Julix

I've run WBG perhaps 3 times since summer

Phil

And how long do you spend thinking about running games and creating characters etc? :o)

Julix

In the last few weeks quite a lot. in the months before that barely at all

it's connected to my activity on rpg SE :-P

correlated anyways, when A then B

Phil

in that case, I can see why you're unsure whether you have the time to commit

maybe try a 3-4 session campaign to test the water?

Julix

it's not just as simple as "will I spend that time on RPG either way" - because if that is the case perhaps I ought to spend it on therapy or something instead, if I'm that compulsive :-P --- it's more about given the course load I have, and that I have other clubs with higher priority (like salsa dancing soo excited!) can I afford to?

Phil

01:18

ah, fair enough

Julix

also those clubs haven't started yet this semester, so it's fairly likely once they'll do my RPG mind will take a rest.

BESW

Another reason I moved away from D&D-type games is the out-of-session prep time it required.

Phil

I'll shut up then :o)

BESW

With my current life I'm much happier in low-prep games.

Phil

@BESW s'what I love about Savage Worlds

Julix

01:19

The only way it doesn't is if you're super comfortable with improvizing

Phil

low prep =/= improvising

(necessarily)

BESW

@Phil Agreed.

Julix

you can force pathfinder to be low-prep effort, I think... but maybe only after a while (i.e. when you're already familiar with certain aspects) -- and at that point the sunk cost goes up ;-)

Well a pre-made module is less prep - but you still have to read it.

Improvising takes 0 prep

BESW

@Julix Low-prep only necessarily equates to improvising in high-fiddly-bits systems.

Phil

If that's too much then you want 0 prep :op

Julix

01:21

improv takes 0 - if you know what you're doing

BESW

In a system like Fate, I can make an NPC like this:

Phil

NPC creation seems to be the timesink for prep in a lot of games

BESW

Angry Goblin Peon
Good at (+2): Stabbing things, cowering subserviently
Bad at (-2): Improvising, keeping out of trouble

Julix

probably. - but it's also a part that I enjoy quite a bit (at least currently)

BESW

Add the default two boxes of mental stress, say three boxes of physical stress because I want him to stay in the game a little longer, and I'm done.

Julix

01:23

@BESW less than a few minutes for the crunch impressive

Phil

so are we all agreed that @Lord_Gareth smells? ;op

BESW

@Julix Because the crunch and the fluff are the same thing.

Julix

@BESW yeah, I noticed. - that does seem advantageous.

BESW

I want a stabby, cowardly, uninventive goblin who can't stay out of trouble, and that's what I get.

Julix

In D&D there's very few moments where it's the case that fluff=crunch, and in those moments it's not clear if it's on purpose or not :D

BESW

01:25

Oh, and the name, "Angry Goblin Peon," is also a mechanic.

Phil

high aspect

BESW

I can spend game currency to give him bonuses when being an angry goblin peon is useful for him, and the players can spend their currency to complicate his life when being an angry goblin peon isn't good for him.

Julix

oh yeah, one last aspect to my D&D fixedness is having played Baldur's Gate so much. --- However I just recently learned that D&D 2nd ed was more fluff focused, do you find that to be the case?

Phil

never played it I'm afraid

BESW

If he turns out to be important to the story (because the players make him important through their actions), I might add a stunt like "Because I am a snivelling coward, I get +2 to rolls whenever I'm trying to create an advantage which lets me hide."

Julix

01:28

@BESW haha, sweet. what kind of dice do you roll?

Phil

Fate dice :o) (seriously)

can be done with d6s as well though

BESW

@Julix I haven't played it, but my understanding is that it's "fluff-focused" in the sense that it doesn't really give much in the way of rules for a lot of situations, and expects the GM to improvise mechanics for the described scenario.

@Julix They're called Fudge dice. Special d6s: two sides have +, two sides have -, and two sides are blank.

Phil

see the selected answer

BESW

You always roll exactly four of them, and you add the results together to get a total between +4 and -4.

Phil

34

Q: What can I use in place of Fudge Dice?

If someone doesn't have any fudge dice, what are the best methods to replace them and why? Term: Fudge Dice are six sided dice with two sides labeled with a +, two sides with a -, and two sides that are blank. They are usually rolled in groups of four, and the + and - sides are added together t...

BESW

01:31

(But the result is usually between +1 and -1, and hardly ever actually hits the fours, so the modifier on your roll is alway important.)

Julix

hehe, so not rock paper sisors, @Phil?

wax eagle

floor(d6/2 - 2) :)

Phil

that too

Julix

alright, I might look into fate. thanks for the recommendation! :-)

BESW

This AnyDice formula lets you examine the bell curve.

And this script makes d6s in the Fate chat room look like Fudge dice.

John Craven

01:45

okay, guys... what the fuck

4

Q: Can deaf people play RPG?

As a deaf person, I guess that I can't play RPG but I am not sure, as I have never played one. Generally speaking, I think there are two genres of RPG: Table RPG (such as D&D) and Performing RPG (such as games where players act like actors). Correct me if I am wrong. Deaf people cannot easily u...

accessibility

Phil

?

John Craven

I basically have two questions about this:

1. What the fuck?

2. What the fucking fuck?

Phil

errr?

BESW

Can you be a little more precise?

John Craven

If a non-deaf person asked this question, I feel like it would be taken down in approximately 3 seconds for being a bigoted piece of trash

this is on "how is babby formed" levels of dumbness, I'm sorry

Phil

01:47

why?

BESW

Welp, let that be a lesson to you: ignorance can look like bigotry, but it's very different.

Phil

its asking a practical question about a specific circumstance

BESW

It's a very reasonable question, honestly. "I don't know what RPGs are like, but I understand they involve a lot of rapid oral communication; is there a way a deaf person can be accommodated without ruining the experience for everyone?"

John Craven

OK, I will rewrite the question into that then.

Phil

I actually think its a very good, interesting question

Julix

01:48

I agree with BESW and Phil here.

Very relevant. - Imagine a GM had a deaf sibling and wanted to invite him along to play an RPG, but wasn't sure how that would be possible, it's still just as good a question. Doesn't really matter who's asking. How is it possible to accommodate deaf players? -- there's a few answers in the other question

BESW

@JohnCraven How isn't it that question already?

John Craven

There are a different number of words, the words used are different, and where the same words are used, they are used in a different order.

Phil

@JohnCraven may tactfully suggest you post on meta about your concerns?

Because if you make significant edits to that question I am likely to just roll them back :o)

John Craven

most of all, people who come to the site would not see "can deaf people play RPGs" when they come in

Phil

what is wrong with the question 'can deaf people play RPGs?'

given the likely number of practical issues, I think its a perfectly reasonable thing to ask

Julix

01:52

@Phil totally!

BESW

I'll edit for style and clarity, but I'm not going to re-phrase the OP's question.

Lord_Gareth

It's certainly a challenge at the table top

Phil

@Lord_Gareth you have personal experience?

BESW

I really liked our "blind RPG players" question from a couple years back.

Lord_Gareth

@Phil Not with completely deaf people, but two of my players were deaf in opposite ears

Which made describing scenes and actions...

Fun

Phil

01:53

I bet table seating arrangements become rather important

Lord_Gareth

Liiiiiittle bit

BESW

I do find the grammar of this person's post fascinating; I'm guessing that it reflects the omission of connective tissue in sign language.

Phil

one of my regular players has issues with vision in one eye, and you'd be amazed how that has to be taken into consideration

Julix

I have some experience with people who are deaf talking on the bus, so I can imagine a complete set of deaf players and GM - the whole game run in sign language... and it's awesome. - But of course when it's mixed and due to not knowing sign language that isn't an option running a game would be difficult. -- looking forward to possible solutions!

BESW

I don't have experience with deaf RPG players, but I've participated in fluent conversations between deaf and non-deaf people where one non-deaf person knew sign language and acted as interpreter both ways.

Phil

01:57

I used to work with accessibility in a college for the physically disabled, and the whole area fascinates me

Julix

@BESW that would work of course, if you have a good translator - and the rest of the group accomodates appropriately by not going too fast, or talking over one another

BESW

@Julix Which groups shouldn't do anyway. Whenever my group got bigger than four players, I brought a stuffed animal to the table; if people were having trouble taking turns talking, the Hedgehog of Discourse was doled out. Only the player with the Hedgehog could talk.

2

Phil

@BESW brilliant :oD

BESW

(Stuffed animals can be thrown around without injuring players or breaking things.)

Lord_Gareth

@BESW We used a Nerf revolver for this

And shot people who would not shut the hell up

BESW

01:59

Heheh.

Lord_Gareth

People who wouldn't stay in character had ice water poured on them at random intervals

Phil

I must rule with an iron fist or something when I GM then, coz I don't tend to have that problem

BESW

I didn't want to encourage assault; the table got rowdy enough already.

@Phil It was usually only a problem when the group hit 7+.

Phil

Ah, I max out at 5

refuse to go any higher

Lord_Gareth

Nothing like watching a big fat guy get freezing cold water get poured down his plumber's crack. He leaps up from the table screaming, "I'LL STAY IC! I'LL STAY IC!" while he prances up and down in an effort to shake the ice cubes down his pant legs.

Phil

02:01

lol!

BESW

I want to add a line to the deaf-players question. It's something he's not asking for specifically but which the answers are addressing and I think it's important.

"Are accommodations necessary, and how much does it change the game?"

Thoughts?

Lord_Gareth

I approve.

Julix

It highly depends on the system being used, the other players etc.

Phil

Isn't that already implied in what's written though?

John Craven

to the subject line, please

or even morph it into "what accommodations are necessary to RPG with deaf people?"

Phil

02:04

anyways, I'll leave you to argue over this - bed time

nn all

BESW

@JohnCraven I'm usually very sensitive about this kind of thing, but I don't think it's necessary in this case --or even appropriate. The subject line is more accurate to the question than most titles we get, and all the answers are "yes."

John Craven

the phrasing of the question implies that "no" is a possible answer

and all of the questions don't so much answer "yes" but "absolutely, but...", which implies that they're answering a different question

BESW

....yes, otherwise the person wouldn't have had to ask the question.

That's why I added the elaboration to the body the question.

But the title of a question is never expected to be the complete question.

Lord_Gareth

02:50

@BESW i.imgur.com/8rR8255.jpg

BESW

@Lord_Gareth Meta Awareness: Because I am Deadpool, I can spend a Fate point to know something that my player knows, whether it makes sense for me to know it in game or not.

6

Lord_Gareth

@BESW ...Take me in a manly way.

doppelgreener

03:35

For your settings: Some beautiful abandoned locations

doppelgreener