@BESW Relevant.

@Tanath Hi!

Has anyone here done a murder mystery dinner?

I've got a cousin who used to work in a theatre that hosted them, but that's the closest I've come.

We've been wanting to try one for a while, but the biggest thing that bums me out about them is the fact that you can really only do it once.

After that, you know what's going to happen for that particular set.

You mean you'd have to come up with a totally new plot each time?

Yeah.

ie: buy a new set

Unless you make one from scratch

But it got me thinking, there has to be a way to develop a system to quickly make murder mystery games, easily skinned to whatever theme you wanted, and still fun, yet no one knows who are the bad guys until the end. If that makes any sense

[Googles]

freeformgames.com: "Our murder mystery games put YOU in the middle of the action. We don't give you a predetermined script to read out, we don't drip feed your background to you – we don't even know how the game will end."

Hmm

A lot of these links seem to be dead, or not what you want, but some of them might still be useful.

I feel like someone who DM's frequently should be able to come up with a nice theme to get things started, let people come up with their own characters, and then have some underlying system that makes things fresh each time.

Have you ever played a game called The Resistance?

Nope.

It's a really simple game, players are split into Resistance members, and government spies trying to bring down the movement from within.

The goal of the game for Resistance members is to try and deduce who the spies are, and the spies goal is to remain secret and fail enough missions before they are discovered.

It's played over 5 missions, and so there isn't a lot of time to discover who the spies are. It's insanely fun, and we've played it probably 50-60 times since we bought it a few months ago.

Despite it being relatively the same setup it's still fun to try and work out who is the spy, criticize everyone's actions, and make an argument for why you aren't a spy. I feel if you could someone transfer that idea to a murder mystery dinner party, or some other themed party, then you would have a nice system on your hands.

Something played over so many rounds over the course of the night, allowing people plenty of time to mingle and potentially forget crucial details between rounds, etc..

I dunno. I feel like if it could've been done, someone would've done it by now. But then again, selling each one time use kit for $20-50 probably makes a ton more money.

@KyleSykes $20 is kind of a steal compared to just the cost of doing the dinner itself. Especially if folks decide to make it a cosplay kind of thing, too.

A fair point

I mean, you could always do it using LARP tricks.

But that involves more acting/roleplaying than what I understand is typical for the boxed kind.

Where the reveal-in-stages structure keeps you from, erm, "screwing it up."

May I suggest that you consider games like Clue and Shadow over Camelot?

They use a randomization element to make the same basic story work out differently each time.

Perhaps a variation on randomized character/motive/role would work.

Maybe. I just hate paying for a game that I'll play once. It would be nice to be able to replay a certain theme if we particularly enjoyed it, instead of hoping there's another box set with a similar theme.

I guess the concept of paying for something for a one time use isn't unheard of, it just feels like there should be a nice way to redo these sorts of things. Also potentially expand it from murder mystery dinners to other themes with perhaps several villains who are working towards some common goal but don't want to arouse suspicion among the other players.

I've significantly re-worked my question about aspectless compels to place more focus on what I'm actually asking about. All the answers were focusing on a specific example I'd given rather than the concept it was an (apparently poor) example of, so it's removed and I've gone into more detail on why I'm asking about this in particular.

(It saddens me that if I don't explain in excruciating detail exactly WHY I want to do a thing a particular way in Fate, all I get are answers telling me that I shouldn't do it that way.)

@KyleSykes It does seem like something that lends itself to a bit of kinda-random generation. Not necessarily pure random but something like pulling leading questions that change how you play your character and drive who is the culprit.

(I'm also considering a meta post asking how I can provide examples in questions without getting answers that only talk about the examples instead of what they're examples of.)

I think I'm envisioning it's an event with two teams(probably unevenly balanced), with loyalty cards drawn randomly at the beginning. Then there is a common goal that everyone should be striving for, and then the "bad guys" attempt to thwart these goals without drawing attention to themselves. Perhaps each round is a step towards the goal.

@KyleSykes That's kinda Shadows Over Camelot. It's also the BSG game.

We have BSG as well

I haven't played SoC, but I have heard of it before.

@KyleSykes Tara Strong, Wil Wheaton, and the Penny Arcade Guys play Shadows over Camelot.

So I mean, there are underlying systems to games that have similar gameplay elements(namely the above games). I just want to expand it into something that can make planning your own themed dinner parties without too much hassle.

Shadows only has 0-1 traitors in a game, IIRC (or 0-2?). From what I've read of it, being the traitor is kinda gentler -- some people say it's too subtle, to the point that it's a bit useless, though that's not the most common opinion -- since you're mostly just trying to spend resources suboptimally without it being obvious.

@BESW, I haven't watched that episode yet! I will now that I know it's SoC. I knew the PA guys did one, but didn't really pay attention to what game

So, IIRC, most of the murder-mystery dinners don't tell you you are the klller.

@AlexP, I think it just varies based on the publisher. The one BESW posted earlier actually does let you know up front, but one my sister in law went to didn't. I could see pros and cons for each way

I feel the overwhelming need to link to The Case of the Mystery Weekend.

Ah well. We're going to buy a boxed set and play it anyways. It just occurred to me tonight while playing the Resistance that it should be extendable to these sort of parties. Maybe if I have time to sit down and try to hammer something out in the future it'll be on my list of things to do

You could ask a question here or on Board & Card Games (not sure where fits better) about reusable murder-mystery dinner games.

Possibly. Maybe I'll try to draft a question sometime

If I had more experience with them so I understood their structure... I've got some ideas but lack the knowledge to really do anything with them, or even articulate them usefully.

That's sort of what I'm hoping to get out of playing a boxed set actually.

I'd say get one of the most highly-recommend sets, play it once, and keep it around as a text to analyze and learn from.

That's not a bad investment.

Right.

I own RPGs like that and I really can't say it wasn't worth it.

I own RPGs that I've played 0-1 times but find valuable as texts to learn from. So they are worth the money.

Aye.

@BESW Consider the serious downside of wiring all kinds of story events into the "Fate point economy": Czege Principle issues.

That's conflating players and characters in ways Fate doesn't.

No, not at all.

That's an author-level statement about players at the table.

Then I have no idea what you mean.

So, when the GM just narrates a thing, that's the GM creating a thing.

And I have no idea what it has to do with aspectless compels that wouldn't also apply to regular compels.

When the GM offers me a Fate point to accept a thing, now I'm the one who's essentially setting it down in the fiction.

So you're saying that compels are, as a general rule, a tool for making the story boring?

@BESW Well, my opinion is that regular compels work way better when it's "GM gives you a point to create a problem that the other players will then solve, most likely."

Okay, but that's not what you're saying.

You're just asking me to "consider the serious downside" of using compels.

Of using compels without any set parameters to their scope or applicability.

That's an important bit of context.

One way to look at compelling aspects is that I'm taking parts of my character and giving them to you, to push and pull and wiggle, to create adversity. And the Fate point is a bribe and a window in which I can veto something if I think your pushing and pulling is messing with the rest of "my" character too much.

So you're saying that compels are inherently in danger of making story boring, and their restrictions are necessary to keep that danger to a minimum?

I think so.

That seems legit, provided that the Czege Principle is accepted.

So, let's say my guy is a Drunk. I know that's kind of a boring aspect, but you get the idea. I think by making that a big obvious target for compels, I've essentially "given away" that aspect of character. Externalized it a bit to be a plot point other players can use to hammer my character, to create cool stuff!

I don't think the "take a Fate point or veto" thing is about you asking me permission to play with my character being a Drunk. I think it's a safety valve to stop my character being a Drunk from overtaking everything else.

Unfortunately, unless there's existing discussion of this elsewhere, it's not a proper answer to my site question. I had to remove the bullet point that might have allowed it, because the point was too vague and opened up "any answer is valid" problems.

Well, yeah, you've turned your question into "What books or blogs discuss this?"

I couldn't figure out any way to ask more generally without making it a Bad SE Question.

That's fair.

Which is why I am talking in chat.

Appreciated.

"Is it okay if there are orcs now?" asks the GM.

@AlexP Hmm. I've never thought of compels in that way before.

I mean, in your experience, how often do players veto the compel?

Perhaps because I don't have much experience as a player.

It's really not 1:1 or anything close, right?

Maybe 1:2.

My GMing experience is still pretty low and I've only recently learned how to set difficulties properly, so my players have historically had a glut of Fate points.

I mean, this stuff is tricky and open to many interpretations. But my reaction to the "Why not just make everything a compel?" is that, as a player, I really don't want to have to explicitly give my permission all the time, even if it's as simple as making a tick mark on my sheet or reaching my hand for a poker chip.

Ummm.

With aspects (both character and game aspects) you're already kinda spotlighting the aspect anyway narratively, so I don't think it's as much of a disruption to do the little mechanical jog that goes along with it.

@AlexP That's a pretty extreme place you've come to, from "Sometimes can a compel might not have an aspect to justify it?" to "Every narrative shift will be a compel, forever."

@VarunDotCuDotCc Hi!

The point of aspects seems to vary a lot from Fate-based game to Fate-based game, though (see my example of Diaspora's ship rules) and group to group. So YMMV and all that.

@BESW Sure, but what I'm reading into your answer (maybe unfairly) is "Oh, crap, I'm playing hardball. Shouldn't I be mitigating that with Fate points somehow?"

Yeah, I don't think that's actually in there at all.

You can always try it. Use aspect-less compels. I recommend keeping detailed track of when you do that and then see what the pattern is. I.e. whether these are actual "game aspects" your are discovering in play.

Yes, well, we'll see.

I've only had it come up once so far.

I might've been able to modify an aspect to justify it (and call it revealing a concealed part of that aspect). Maybe.

@BESW So it was kinda like your natural impulse is to play a compel here, but you feel like finding a matching aspect was a bit forced?

Pretty much.

Ok, I see where you're coming from.

Also I've gotta go to sleep.

Good night.

The compel made sense in the narrative, it introduced complication in a natural-feeling and dramatic way.

Goodnight.

@BESW I think Gomad might actually have the right idea here.

You as the GM can complicate matters. You could go and make it rain. Then compel to make that a problem.

From your previously-featured examples...

He's right about the example I gave, which is why the example no longer exists: it was a bad example.

Things that can open doors: first make them clever, then compel them.

Things can't get any worse: just make them worse.

Judge being a personal enemy: that's an interesting situation, but not necessarily a compel situation. Create a situational aspect you might be able to compel.

> You don't need a player's permission to make life complicated or hard or dramatic - that's your job as a GM. That's what adventures are - hard, dramatic, complex situations.

And I think this quote universally applies to those situations.

> Compels take narrative control of a character away from a player in exchange for Fate points. They make a PC's life dramatic or complicated by forcing certain actions, decisions, or conditions on the character.

Compels make someone's life complex, but that doesn't mean that making someone's life complex has to be done via compel.

Duly noted. But what if I want to do it that way?

Heck, you make their life complex just by presenting the adventure.

I suppose you could just offer them a fate point. "What if the judge hates you?"

That's my question. Not "should I?" or "Is this a good idea?" but "if I want to do this, is there any precedent for it?"

Ok

I guess you're getting the "don't do that" answers

I just added that explicitly.

[face/palm] When the bullet-pointed questions aren't about if a thing is a good idea, how do you get nothing but answers about whether it's a good idea?

I guess when people see where you're going but think it's not a good idea

That's still a bad answer. A good answer would discuss precedent (there probably isn't any), and then lecture me about my bad ideas.

Even when I had a really vague bullet point that would've justified nearly any answer, they were basically just saying "Stupid question, why are you asking it?"

Ok, I guess so Dx

This must be frustrating for you :P

Mmm.

I can't find the right balance between explaining enough that people know what I'm asking, and explaining so much that they get caught up in the tangentials.

Oh, look, the Cadance of Cloudsdale cycle has a new installment. [reads ponies]

I found myself re-editing myself on that edit I just made (to your FATE question @BESW) many, many times.

Thank you.

Hey, guys, I want examples of a TV or film character who uses humility and self-effacement as a tool to manipulate people.

Luther, from Luther.

Haven't seen it. Got an example, maybe a YT clip?

lemme see....

Another example is Jauxter the mighty from Xena/Hercules (I think that's how you spell his name)

I often try to find a pop culture figure whose voice I'll keep in mind when I'm running the NPC. I'm not good enough to make them sound anything like the person, but it keeps the voice and character more consistent. This is what I'm looking for a voice on:

> He is filled with the false humility of one who is so utterly confident in his position that he can afford to deprecate it. He is honeyed words and keen ears, prodding with compliments and self-effacement to provoke his peers into unfortunate admissions of weakness.

:)

Luther.

Try this.

One of the other NPCs in this scenario is going to be BRIAN BLESSED in a loincloth

Because I love my player, and only want the best for him.

@InbarRose I'm dealing with an ant problem right now, will look at it shortly.

Another full scene. Very nice. youtube.com/watch?v=-AB_znetvII

This is what I dislike most about the rainy season: the ants all come indoors.

Close vote request: this topic is about video games

Back at so, whenever we wanted help closing a question we would just link it with: cv-pls LINK

So in your case it would be:

cv-pls rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/29383/…

And that way it takes up little space in the chat, and its easy to know at a glance what is going on

the tag cv-pls is made up.. and means "close vote please"

@InbarRose That's for the assistance of a plugin though isn't it?

I learned about this recently but people would have to have the plugin to benefit :P

No

No need for a plugin

It also makes it easier to search the chat

plus it conveys the meaning without needing to spell it out to everyone each time.

It's something to keep in mind, but close votes don't happen often enough here for it to really need to be standardized and made as efficient as possible.

Also, we have just enough turnover in the chat that a standard like that would probably have to be explained each time anyway, resulting in no net gain.

Valid points./

Seen the video(s) yet?

Yup.

And?

Convinced me to watch the series, but I didn't really see Luther being humble or self-effacing.

It's kind of hard to see from short vids, but he is.

He just says and does whatever he needs and often time this includes lying to people and/or playing/conning them.

Fair enough.

And soemtimes by simply using himself as "im so fucked up, how could i possible do that"

etc.

Let's put it this way. When you asked for that - he was the first thing I thought of.

But, the next one is (as I mentioned) the jauxter the mighter.

Joxer... Apparently is how it's spelled.

I don't get the impression Joxer is dissembling.

You don't know the shows Hercules and Xena?

Probably the best shows of my childhood

I'm aware of them, but I haven't watched them.

shame.

I didn't have cable, and never really felt the lack.

They aren't HBO quality or anything, but they are cult. :)

Let's just say they started a lot of tropes.

And Joxer is like.. the silliest character

he is a total noob

Imagine a level 1 peasant

who wants to be a hero

and thinks he is one.

And through his bravery (stupidity) and goodness (innocent) he is able to vanquish great evils

Mostly because of the people around him

Often times he is underestimated by the bad guys

Yeah, I'm looking for someone who deliberately undermines himself in order to get people to be overconfident.

Well then

False humility, complimenting others while denigrating himself.

In one of the seasons, they meet a character who (for some random reason I don't remember) looks exactly like Joxer, but he is actually a master thief, so he pretends to be Joxer and steals tons of stuff by pretending to be an idiot.. etc...

Another idea: Spoiler Alert The movie "The Usual suspects" . If you already know what I mean, I will stop, because I don't want to reveal any spoilers.

hello?

Good afternoon RPG SE

@Songtress @hi!

@Songtress hello!

You've caught us at a rather dull moment; half the world's still in the weekend and away from their computers, and the other half is asleep.

What's up?

Yep nothing much. Just checking in and see what's going on on the SE chat. At this point realizing that noone probably really plays Eclipse Phase.

Doesn't seem like it, no. I'll do a tag search and see what I can see.

Hm. Actually your chances look pretty good of getting it answered eventually.

Afternoon all -or whatever greeting-to-time zone is relevant where you live :)

We've got 20 questions, with a 5% unanswered rate overall. Looking at the names of the answerers, I'm seeing people I know are currently active on the site giving multiple answers with solid upvotes.

Like all tags, eclipse-phase has a stats page.

@KyleSykes not murder mystery, but theres...arkham mansion, which is pretty much a boxed set with re-draftable and ever changing adventures yet within a set frame, ala hero quest

failing that ever thought of card games? I hear android is a good spy vs evil corporation thing

@BESW you finalised your female royal yet out of curiosity? And any luck with your insincere humble one?

Sort of working on them all in a batch.

I've got a guy who's basically BRIAN BLESSED in a snazzy loincloth, a guy I'm modeling after a local judge, and I'm pretty confident I have Hatshepsut nailed down with Mirren's Prospera for inflection but Dench's speech patterns.

Btw...whos brian blessed!?!?! Googling now lol

Ah Lol him!! Ok thats awesome

A man famous for being loud.

urg in a snazzy loincloth!??! A rather large loincloth at that!

Hope he's a roudy larger than life conan-style older barbarian :D

A lovely white and blue loincloth with lots of geometric patterns in gold thread.

> The Cretan/Minoan ambassador is loud and pompous, dominating conversations and always bringing the topic back to himself and his island. He glories in the trappings of wealth: he and his surroundings are colourful and shiny, with baubles and trinkets.

> He is a large bearded man in his mid twenties, and built like a college footballer who has not played for years--muscle slowly giving way to fat. He wears an elaborate loincloth of blue and gold fabric, and a stole over his shoulders to indicate his rank, but nothing else except jewellery (rings, necklaces, and bracelets of bright-colored gems). He speaks like BRIAN BLESSED and has no concept of personal space.

@InbarRose haha xena&hercules ftw!! Lol it was played like ad nauseum in Italy :P

@BESW haha fits like a charm!! Hope hes got ala sean connery james bond chest hair, but more!

Naturally.

Then its win :D

as for your humble pie guy....ive got just the right person from a manga lol, but obviously no chat

My favorite BRIAN BLESSED moment is probably when Kng Ycarnos agrees to retreat:

i have a face of an actor of fame, but cannot recall the role...will have to tax my memory for that

Lol nice scene

what about bilbo baggins actor? Hes always humble etc. But pretty hardcore and sneaky

and small, kinda adds to it

There was a period in Doctor Who where they kept casting famous actors in random secondary-character roles to try boosting viewership. BRIAN BLESSED is one of the few that worked.

Well lol small in the film, that was a silly thing to say

haha he kinda works in everything, since they just work the part round him

Someone suggested Jack O'Neill, and that's an interesting option I hadn't considered.

I think my favorite BRIAN BLESSED moment was in Blackadder the First

although it could also have been when he was on that one talk show and was like I SAW A YETI I AM BRIAN BLESSED AND I SAW A YETI

Cant think of him as that kinda char, even though mcgyver is ultimate ftw

@JohnCraven damn cannot recall that black adder part!!

Well, O'Neill is almost always playing the fool, and it makes everyone underestimate him.

Even in stargate series? Didnt really watch him there but thought he was more badass team leader

well....i see your point, but hes always so badass, just cant see him as humble pie venom in the filling kinda guy

be back later peeps, need to clock some more hours on fallout new vegas!

Yeah, he's "military smart" most of the time--leadership, tactics, shootin', cussin', and blowin' things up.

But he's making jokes and getting everyone to explain the science in short words at the same time.

So it looks like he's got military-training smarts, but not much useful in his brain that the military didn't give him.

tretches I guess its odd to sort of want to find a game where peoplearen't sitting on piles of loot, an EP filled that void.

Nah, a lot of the people in chat, at least, are interested in something more than D&D is designed to provide effectively.

I'm personally enjoying Fate Core these days.

@Songtress I've played like 20 sessions of Burning Wheel and easily hit the game's equivalent of "mid-level" (there are no levels, but like stat-wise) and my character still can't afford real armor. ;)

I'm trying unsuccesfully to get a FATE group started where I live but in the meantime am enjoying pretty much strictly story games ATM

I finally found a good group I joined.

D&D-type games are still a majority, but these days it's largely just due to inertia.

He is running a custom game set in greek mythology.

We played a game last night called Montsegnur, which I have now played twice, and that game is so damn intense...

thoughtfulgames.com/montsegur1244

@Aaron Hey, grats!

@Songtress The citizens on this chat are a group that think Roll for Shoes is pretty cool, so no worries about us think you're odd for not playing D&D or any of its spawn.

@BESW Roll for Shoes is good for quick online games :)

It really is quite perfectly suited for flashgames (like flashmobs, but games).

Every game is good for something, it's just a matter of how broad the niche is, how the game represents that niche, and whether anyone's interested in the niche at all (I'm looking at you, FATAL).

@BESW FATAL?

@Aaron Oh, dear.

It's a bizarre, poorly-written, disjointed, profane, offensive, paranoid-schizophrenic conspiracy-theory nutjob thesis hacked together into the vague shape of an RPG.

And it's not even as interesting as that sounds. It's just nonsensical and rude.

@BESW ....

Avoid it all costs kinda game then

Yeah. I understand it's best used as a "how much of the introduction you can read?" dare.

@Tanath Hi.

I need a new game. I beat candy box and the dark room. Cookie clicker lost my interest long ago.

Any suggestions before I go to the great and all knowing google?

Free flash game type deal?

I've got a soft spot for the classics--mahjong, for example.

And there's some weird Myst-inspired clickthroughs out there.

But my job is clicking at dots on a screen, so my recreation leans more toward writing or reading.

I could suggest some quality webcomics or fanfic.

@Aaron Dragonfable? free flash rpg with a release every friday. kinda fun actually.

peers back in

Dragonfable?

Oh gosh why are we talking about FATAL?

Oh.. nevermind

Rawr.

@ReaperOscuro AHA! Buonaseeeeeraaaaa

@JohnCraven Ah, Montsegur 1244. Awesome game, indeed.

You don't simply rawr at FATAL, @Metool