TRPG General Chat

doppelgreener

00:00

Yeah I just find the Pathfinder rules really hard to understand sometimes, so I was wanting for someone to spell it out. :(

I didn't understand why there would be any replacement, implied or otherwise.

I made an answer with what I think is the case, and if it isn't I'm happy to have it downvoted, but then I'll be back to being confused.

Tridus

@BESW Probably, but I can't really contribute much to "what is an RPG?" I already said my piece on that on the other meta post

BESW

This isn't about "what is an RPG." It's about "how do we define our own scope?"

doppelgreener

I understand the 1.5x 2h strength bonus is instead of the 1x 1h bonus, at least, but that's just because the rules say: "if you're using a 1h weapon, you get this, if you're using a 2h weapon, you get this." If you're using a 2h weapon, you never got the 1h weapon bonus in the first place, so there's no replacement taking place. :)

BESW

It will, by its nature, include discussion of the nature of RPGs.

doppelgreener

@BESW Did The Forge dive into the philosophical question of what defines an RPG?

BESW

00:04

I have no idea.

I mean, I'm sure they did. It's just the kind of thing the Forge would do.

But I was never in the Forge.

doppelgreener

Me neither. Aren't the results supposed to become publicly available at some point?

BESW

[shrug]

Tweets to Campaign By presents a nifty device.

2

Cow shoes used by Moonshiners in the Prohibition days to disguise their footprints, 1922 http://t.co/uHo1ZE01MC

Tweeted by HistoricalPics on October 8, 2013 at 8:12 PM

doppelgreener

Impending: a story of a Faun, Moonshiners with strange shoes, and a lot of confusion on behalf of police and the populace.

BESW

Sounds like one of Carey's Three Investigators plots.

(The Three Investigators was a series of Young Boys' Mysteries in the vein of the Hardy Boys but much smarter. They often encountered apparently-supernatural events which were later explained a clever hoaxes. Like the Hardy Boys it was ghost-written by a number of different authors, and one of those authors, M.V. Carey, had a penchant for leaving the supernatural partially unexplained and heavily implying that something really was out there.)

agradine

00:25

@BESW I've been thinking there's a bit more gray area when it comes to some MU__'s, but I also wonder if such a discussion is particularly necessary

BESW

Not something I'm really familiar with.

doppelgreener

@agradine What is MU__ meant to be?

BESW

But what little I know... yeah, a curious intersection.

agradine

MUDs, MUCKs, etc.

doppelgreener

@agradine MUDs and MUCKs are video games, aren't they?

agradine

00:26

MUDs are essentially text-based MMORPGs, so I can understand their exclusion

I've seen some MUCKs (or maybe some other acronym starting with MU) that were essentially LARPing in a chat room

BESW

MU*

MU* is a shorthand to refer collectively to a family of text-based multi-user virtual world servers comprising: * TinyMUD * MUSH * MOO * TinyMUCK * and related, less-notable types; see the TinyMUD family tree for more Another term for these servers is the Tiny family. The asterisk is often used in computer programming languages to represent a wildcard (any number of arbitrary characters), which suggests a usage that encompasses MUDs in general. However, confusingly, MU* is often used in a manner exclusive of services specifically described as MUDs, with the MU* term meant to distance th...

agradine

And if LARPing is an acceptable topic, and using online tools for PnP games is an acceptable topic, why not those MUCKs (I think I'm talking about MUSH's, now that you post that list), which serve as the intersection of those?

doppelgreener

Oh, right. Well: if it's a question about a MUCK/MUD as a video game, it's for Gaming. If it's about a roleplaying platform: we aren't a site about roleplaying, we're a site about roleplaying games. If someone's playing a roleplaying game within that roleplaying platform, e.g. some kind of LARP or using some rule set, then it's something they can ask about here.

agradine

Again, I'm not sure how worthwhile finding the line here is, because like LARPing we don't really get questions about those anyway

Tridus

"However, confusingly, MU* is often used in a manner exclusive of services specifically described as MUDs, with the MU* term meant to distance the TinyMUD family of "social MUDs" from "combat-oriented" MUDs." Of course, because nothing makes a good shorthand than using a convention to mean the exact opposite of what everyone is going to read it as.

doppelgreener

00:28

One of the simple definitions of a game is that it is a set of activities plus rules around those activities, and objectives.

BESW

We do get LARP questions on a sparse but regular basis.

agradine

I see a question about using a MUSH to essentially LARP online being as valid as a question about using NWN to run an online D&D campaign

doppelgreener

@agradine Yes, because they're asking about LARPs and running D&D campaigns.

agradine

NWN being an example used in one of the answers to the "what can we talk about" meta question

But the same answer simply sweeps all MU*'s under the "no way" category

doppelgreener

I've noticed that RPGs themselves tend to be platform independent. You can play AD&D 2e on the tabletop, or in a video game (Baldur's Gate). An RPG rules question can be asked independently of whether the RPG system exists within a video game or a tabletop game. The same extends to LARPs somewhat, but since they're very much designed for physical activity, it's not quite as interchangeable there.

@agradine In what way should MU*'s be OK for our site?

agradine

00:35

@JonathanHobbs In the way I just described; when they're used as a platform to port a typing role-playing game experience online (like a MUSH for online LARPing game)

BESW

A MUSH is appropriate for the site if it's being used as a play-by-chat RPG.

Like Hobbs says, it's not about medium, it's about content.

agradine

I agree

The main answer to the "What kind of questions can I ask here?" doesn't seem to

Which is why I brought it up in the first place

doppelgreener

@agradine If so (I haven't read it, and won't at the moment) it's worth re-discussing then.

agradine

Although re-reading the comments there seems to be discussions about what kinds of exceptions to make

doppelgreener

Now that this site is actually a few years old - and more mature than it was when that question was asked - we probably have a different answer to what's on topic here.

Alex P

00:40

So are you saying that MU* questions are basically in scope if they're more-or-less exact analogues of tabletop issues, and out of scope otherwise?

agradine

@AlexP That's where I run into some confusion

doppelgreener

@AlexP We accept questions about various RPG tools (e.g. Roll20) so long as they directly relate to people playing an RPG.

If a MUCK is asked about the same way, that seems like it should be OK.

You'll be told to go to Arqade if you're asking about video gamey parts of the video game, but if the content of your question is truly about the LARP/RPG part, I imagine it would be on topic.

BESW

See also: LARP questions, which are about people playing an RPG and thus are in scope.

doppelgreener

Like "How do I configure the sound volume?" for something that can incidentally be used to play RPGs is not on topic. But "How can we keep track of AOEs in [MUCK being used to play D&D]?" might be.

agradine

01:01

Errk, never designed a 3.5 template before

I suppose I could just make a few tweaks to the Celestial template and call it a day

BESW

What are you templating?

agradine

My Druid player wants to take the Holy Liberator prestige class, which is a Terrible Idea

So one of the suggestions (I think from Tridus) was to find a more Druid-friendly PrC and have it give up some of its toys to kill the Holy Liberator and steal its fluff and a few relevant abilities (like the Celestial companion)

Since my Druid is from a heavily fae-themed plane (and part of a fae-aligned druidic sect) I was going to change the Celestial Companion to a Fae Companion

doppelgreener

Check with her which one she wants. :)

BESW

You might consider the Anarchic template from the Planar Handbook.

agradine

Hmm, that could work

I'll have to look it up when I get home

BESW

01:15

Smite Law 1/day, darkvision 60 ft., fast healing if more than 4 HD, DR if more than 12, resist 5 acid/cold/electricity/fire/sonic, immune to petrification and polymorph.

If animal/vermin, becomes magical beast. If on the material plane, extraplanar.

Int increased to 3 if lower. Alignment always chaotic.

agradine

that's pretty much what I'm looking for

is the DR -/magic?

BESW

Yes.

agradine

I was thinking of using Cold Iron instead

BESW

That'd be a power boost.

agradine

I'd figured as much

But I'm not sure as to how much and how to go about re-balancing

BESW

01:24

That way lies madness, I'm afraid.

agradine

sigh

I remember when I just used to make crap up as I went along as a DM and cared not for its ideas of "balance"

Simpler times

BESW

And in 3.5, that's usually just as good.

agradine

I might just cut the DR in half and wash my hands of it

This is all still theoretical anyway

BESW

Well, it's just DR 1/magic at 12 HD and above. Pretty lame.

agradine

Oh wow

BESW

01:27

DR 1/cold iron probably isn't going to be even noticed at those levels.

agradine

That's way weaker than the Celestial template

BESW

Mhm.

The fast healing goes up to 5.

My suggestion is that you use Axiomatic as inspiration for modifying the Celestial template.

agradine

The fast healing probably makes up the difference

BESW

M'rr. It's all so very very contextual.

Fast healing means you don't waste healing resources outside of fights.

But it's rarely enough to keep you alive more than maybe one extra attack in a fight.

DR scales with the number of attacks that hit you, and fast healing doesn't.

agradine

True

BESW

01:30

So... it's a wash, really.

There is no formula. It's an art, not a science, and accuracy requires knowing the rest of the team and the kind of challenges they're going to face.

agradine

Yeah, this whole "an art not a science" is what I'm learning the more I try to stictly follow the rules

I've already given up on balancing encounters though ELs and CRs and have already had slightly better luck

BESW

Yeah.

Once you've got some experience under your belt it's better to just eyeball it.

agradine

I still haven't put together anything that could be described as "challenging" for this party yet, but I've been missing closer

BESW

And fudging numbers mid-combat is your friend.

agradine

Yeah, I fudge quite a bit

BESW

01:35

Mysterious +5 bonus to hit out of nowhere!

"...eh, okay, he's dead FINALLY let's just move on."

agradine

Yeah, I threw a CR6 Gaunt at the party when they were level 3; I doubled its HP mid-fight and it still was the easiest encounter they'd had yet

That's when I learned by lesson about solo bosses

BESW

There's a very good reason that 4e's post-MM3 paradigm gives all boss monsters some way to easily shrug off conditions.

And not just +5 to saves, because that just teaches players to stack non-save effects.

afk

Metool

04:31

the good news: if i play it up, this cold will keep people off my back no sweat

BESW

04:57

I'm liking the new Skin Horse story line. It's so quotable! "drag me to coffee. now."

(Or maybe I just love grumpy!Sweetheart.)

javafueled

am I missing something about the SE interface that sets the view on the main page. sometimes I get a "long view" that includes a summary. Sometimes I get "short view" that is more like a list.

it seems random.

BESW

You go to the main page?

I just log in at /questions.

Anyway, business time at a Place with No Internet. ta!

javafueled

i'm logged in over OAuth from Google. I usually approach from vanilla bookmark.

i'm actually working too... code release.

sorted it out I think.

/questions is a long view with summary, / (root) is short form list.

Avner Shahar-Kashtan

06:16

I love this line from the latest OOTS. Sums up my attitude towards combat in D&D.

4

BESW

Heheh.

Magician

06:40

Mornin'

I'm still trying to come up with a decent name for my website, slowly moving away from the "use it for everything including future projects" concept, and to a "personal blog" concept. For that, Magician's Musings has a ring to it. Except there's a magiciansmusings.blogspot . com, with something like 3 posts from 2 years ago. Very disappointing. Serves me right for having a nickname that is a regular word.

And what've you been up to, chat denizens?

BESW

5

Q: Our Tour page is wrong. Help us fix it!

I don't know how many Meta regulars have looked at our Tour (aka About) lately or ever, but this question and the confusion prompting it made me go looking for why it might have been asked. Apparently, our Tour is horribly inaccurate about what our topic scope is. It's very good at making it cle...

Magician

I do wonder how many users actually looked at that page.

doppelgreener

06:56

I dun gone added an answer to that

Also I need to start a dev blog for this fate tabletop thing

Magician

Ooh, I bet you need to come up with a name for it.

BESW

Fate Core Online: the Bloggening.

Trajan

Hi

doppelgreener

07:23

@Magician I do XD

For the blog

@BESW this is p. good actually

Avner Shahar-Kashtan

Though I'd go for "Fate: The Bloggening" to keep closer to the original structure.

doppelgreener

@AvnerShahar-Kashtan but this is not Fate's bloggening

BESW

"Fate Core Online" is the working title of the online tabletop app he's working on, and which the dev blog would be a blog about.

Avner Shahar-Kashtan

1) Oh, I see. Cool. 2) The full name is still a bit clunky. Maybe FCO: The Bloggening?

BESW

@user30653 Hi!

doppelgreener

07:29

At some point I'll need to pick up a name for non-Core Fate games, since it's hopefully eventually going to expand to include a couple of classics like Dresden Files

BESW

@user30653 You're welcome to hang out here until you've got the 20+ rep needed to chat.

@JonathanHobbs Hm. Fate Online is apparently an MMO or something.

doppelgreener

@BESW There seems to be a thing called Fate but no Fate Online really...

BESW

There's a belabored "Core/slice" metaphor in there somewhere.

Like Fate Core is the core of the apple and DFRPG, StoC, etc., are slices of the apple.

doppelgreener

x)

I hadn't thought of that angle

BESW

fruitoffate.com

doppelgreener

07:39

I will shortlist that but there's probably better xD

BESW

fatefruit.com?

It could give you a solid visual rhetoric for the site.

doppelgreener

I'm not super attracted to fruit as a site emblem :(

or whatever you'd call it

BESW

Fate fruit core

doppelgreener

08:00

@BESW clever x)

I'm iffy about that as a motif though. The slices metaphor is right on, but I don't associate this site with fruit and can't get a feel for that.

BESW

Okay, what else has a core?

Magician

atoms

BESW

The earth, a nuclear reactor...

optical fibre, electric magnets

Avner Shahar-Kashtan

CPUs.

doppelgreener

there's also the Fate thing. Books and other equally majestic stuff. The Fates, the Oracles, Tarot and Divination in all its forms.

Avner Shahar-Kashtan

08:12

You could skip the whole core/slice thing and just call it Destiny.

BESW

You know, the noun "lot" means "group," "random selection," "luck/fate/destiny," and "a plot of land with a specific use."

doppelgreener

@AvnerShahar-Kashtan That too... :O

@BESW Why do you bring that up?

BESW

Because the concurrent concepts of "destiny," "group," and "set aside for particular use" join together nicely.

If you're going for a "destiny" theme, then the word "lot" could come into play somehow. Either in the name of the site, or as a term for some part of it.

Although I don't think we'll ever come up with better terms than the fiddlewith and the fiddlebits.

doppelgreener

08:31

I agree x)

doppelgreener

08:53

Cooking is underwaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyy

There's also the simple stuff like fatesystem or fatesys or fatesim or fate-tabletop or tableoffate or i dunno

Fateism

Fateisy xD

FATE AR PEE GEE ON LINES

fateapp

fate board

Magician

Fatalisim

Avner Shahar-Kashtan

Destiny Heart Connected

doppelgreener

that does sound neat if I pronounce it like: Fatali Sim

@AvnerShahar-Kashtan Dang there are a lot of things called destiny heart on the googles

I do like the idea of giving it a related nickname like Destiny: the Fate tabletop simulator

But a lot of those words might be taken already

I bet destiny is a dating site

Seems to be something like that

Avner Shahar-Kashtan

Kismet Kernel Networked.

I've got a thesaurus and I'm not afraid to use it.

doppelgreener

Hahahaha you might be drifting a bit too far from sanity there

The Parcae, the Roman Fates: Nona, Decima and Morta.

The Moirai, the Greek Fates: Clotho, Lachesis and Atropos

Magician

09:11

Crossposting from G+, because why not. Reading Eclipse Phase I've had an idea for one of those indie-rpg one-shot games. Each player is a seed AI undergoing hard take-off singularity (becoming god-like through iterated self-improvement) by learning about the civilization that created it, and then deciding its fate.

As much as it would be a game about self-discovery, it would also be a game about exploring the alien mindset: the parent civilization is non-human, which is what makes the exploration process interesting.

doppelgreener

If I call it Moira - one of the names for the Greek Fates - Moira.com may be obtainable

Magician

Doubtful

doppelgreener

@Magician That sounds amazing.

Magician

@JonathanHobbs Thank you! I occasionally have interesting ideas. Implementing them, now that's another matter.

doppelgreener

Domain name availability: the main reason coming up with good names for sites is hard.

doppelgreener

10:03

@Magician That just sunk in. Was that a play on Fatalism? :)

Magician

@JonathanHobbs Ayup :D

doppelgreener

Aha ;D

Metool

10:15

They'll tear you apart, bone by bone, and build with you a human throne.
Their buck-toothed king will sit upon what once was you but now is gone.
This key unlocks the gates of Hell. Steady traveler, use it well.

Old creepy signs with old creepy keys are something to be wary of.

BESW

Eeee, Cat posted a question!

Metool

@BESW ?

BESW

Cat

1.7k 5 30

dnd-3.5e gm-techniques pathfinder system-agnostic roleplaying new-players game-recommendation

She was active in chat for a while a few months ago and then vanished.

Metool

10:35

Ahhhh.

BESW

She was in the "Enchanted Forest" Fate game we ran some time back, and her character influenced a lot of other PCs and a big chunk of the plot even after she'd left.

Tridus

11:33

Morning

BESW

Hey.

Phil

Afternoon

doppelgreener

Huh...

[suddenly curious]

Jonathan Hobbs

8.2k 3 26 65

dnd-4e powers pathfinder dnd-3.5e gm-techniques feats magic-items

Phil

Afternoon

doppelgreener

I was not expecting Pathfinder and D&D 3.5e to be in my top tags.

Hi Phil!

BESW

11:44

BESW, Guam

17.8k 2 55 110

dnd-4e gm-techniques dresden-files dnd-3.5e fate fate-core system-agnostic

...yeah, that sounds about right.

doppelgreener

Yup!

BESW

And lookkit all those bronze tag badges.

I think I'm a little chagrined by the 3.5 one.

Tridus

That's a neat list

BESW

Tridus, Canada

3.3k 8 31

dnd-3.5e gm-techniques pathfinder system-agnostic character-creation gm stealth

Tridus

Stealth? REally? That's funny

BESW

11:48

You've only got six tags with a total of 20+ votes each.

You start at 196 with 3.5, then drop to 50 for gm-techniques and go down from there. Definitely a specialist, you are.

Tridus

Yeah. Well I know what I play

BESW

So if they're going to list five tags, the ones toward the bottom aren't going to have actually seen much play.

Tridus

Yeah

So the mess created during my Monday night game is still growing

Along with my intense annoyance at permanent character death

BESW

I don't think I was here for the first round of that.

Tridus

I DM a 3.5 game on Mondays. Last session, the party got faced with a situation where due to an Oath, a LG NPC was going to let himself be killed by his fallen angel mistress, because he swore to protect her so long as she lived, blah blah blah

The party couldn't decide if they wanted to intervene or not.... so half the party tried to save him, and the other half watched

This was a fairly important NPC and a plot point of a fight, so things were not statted such that half the party could take it on and win.

(Oh yeah, the half that didn't jump in included a Paladin of Freedom and a Cleric of Rao, because WTF)

At any rate, two players died. Those two both don't like that resurrection exists in the game and think death should be permanent, so both have a DNR (Do Not Resurrect) order in place.

So, problem #1: WTF were the other players thinking? This was not morally ambiguous, it was your party members fighting a freaking Demon

Problem #2: With two characters gone, I get to throw out a bunch of plot that was specifically about them and start over. (This campaign has been going a year now, so there's a fair bit of plot going on.)

Problem #3: With two new characters coming in, I get to try and figure out how to integrate them into a plot that's already been going for a year in a way that makes any kind of sense.

That was yesterday

This morning I get problem #4: I only have to worry about one character, since one of the two players decided to quit after losing his character. Naturally he's the most skilled of the players in terms of actually solving things, so I also have to look at rebalancing everything to make up for the fact that they've lost his player knowledge

You know what would have been preferable to all that? They cast Raise Dead, the party hashes out their different opinions on if killing demons is good or not, and we move on. Permanent death is a horrifically awful thing when you have a long running story going, because it tends to blow holes in things real fast.

Phil

12:01

sounds like not much fun at all - I feel for you

Tridus

(Hell, I even encouraged that right back at the first session by houseruling out resurrection penalties. I hate those. I want you to keep playing a character you like.)

Trajan

@Tridus is there any loophole in their philosophy that you can exploit ? I don't know resurrection very well, a dead can keep livings from resurrecting him ?

Sven B.

@Trajan A soul has to be willing to be resurrected

Tridus

@Trajan It's the players. The players of the characters that died don't like that resurrection is a thing and want combat to be fatal. It's entirely self-enforced.

BESW

I'll have some things to say, but I'm kinda busy right now.

Tridus

12:07

(or maybe self-inflicted is a better word)

Resurrection is easy right now, as they have another character in the party capable of casting Raise Dead. They have the bodies, and the monetary capability to do it. The only thing stopping it is the players

Trajan

@SvenB. is that a PF/3.5 rule ?

Tridus

@Trajan Yeah, it's in the spell descriptions.

Trajan

@Tridus well, one of them quits, so you can resurrect his character, just end the plot more smoothly

@Tridus ah yes, I overlooked Raise Dead

Sven B.

@Trajan Pretty sure that it is mentioned in the 3.5 rule book.

Tridus

@Trajan Well, the overarching story has probably another year left in it, so keeping him around as an NPC isn't viable. I also don't have a way to explain why he's not dead when the rest of the party knows he doesn't want to be resurrected and so just had a funeral and buried him

I mean I could find a way to do it, but it would come off as really arbitrary

What I really want to do is convince the players that resurrection exists for this reason. It's there for people who are attached to a character and want to keep playing it even when something goes wrong.

He swears up and down that he's having fun in the game (and I believe him), so really things were fine until this death. It sucks

(On a more practical note, the overarching story has a bunch of quests in it of course, and in the current one they're about to reac hthe climax and fight a demon lord. I have absolutely no idea what to do with the balance of that fight now that the partry is out their strongest melee AND their best cleric)

BESW

12:15

> A soul cannot be returned to life if it does not wish to be. A soul knows the name, alignment, and patron deity (if any) of the character attempting to revive it and may refuse to return on that basis.

(PHB1 p171)

And Fate's two cents:

> most of the time, sudden character death is a pretty boring outcome when compared to putting the character through hell. On top of that, all the story threads that character was connected to just kind of stall with no resolution, and you have to expend a bunch of effort and time figuring out how to get a new character into play mid-stride.

> That doesn’t mean there’s no room for character death in the game, however. It is recommended that you save that possibility for conflicts that are extremely pivotal, dramatic, and meaningful for that character—in other words, conflicts in which that character would knowingly and willingly risk dying in order to win.

Rich Burlew on character vs player choices

Some observations and questions come to mind.

First, multi-year campaigns suffer player attrition and experience a changing of the guard. This is just a thing that happens.

If you're not planning with that possibility in mind, you're opening yourself up for pain.

Second, why is he leaving? Is it just because his character died and that's the only character he wants to play but he doesn't want to be resurrected?

Because that sounds mighty thin from where I'm sitting.

Third, I once had a lynchpin character leave suddenly because the player left island. I had an extra dilemma because the player left before we could play him out, so I had to get creative about the character's exit, but here's the result: the character's soul was melded with one of his magic items (a banner, in this case) and subsumed into a powerful artifact which helped the party face the next few challenges while being down a player.

Tridus

@BESW He says he's busy with the course he's taking this term, and maybe that's the case. But it wasn't any kind of issue before this death. I've been playing with him for quite a while, and he usually replaces characters fairly easily. I think he's taking this one harder but doesn't want to back down from his PoV on resurrection being a bad thing

I guess if he decides to come back in January, than it's okay

BESW

12:31

So, are you more interested now in examining what happened, trying to bring the guy back, or moving forward and rebalancing your next encounters?

Tridus

I've already talked to him about his options should he want to come back, including a way for him to keep the character without breaking his resurrection thing, or that he could bring in something new. Not sure there's much more to do there unless he decides he wants to keep playing.

Examining what happened would probably be useful because I was totally baffled by the reaction of the other players, and I'm kind of at a loss for how to move forward with the next encounter.

BESW

Have you read Making the Tough Decisions?

Tridus

Yes

just now

BESW

It sounds like some of the behaviors that essay talks about are in play here.

Making decisions based in character verisimilitude at the expense of player fun (including for oneself, apparently).

Tridus

Yeah

though that likely doesn't happen if the other players don't sit on the sidelines for reasons I don't understand

BESW

12:44

Well, that's part of it too.

They weren't exactly making decisions with the group's fun in mind either, were they?

Tridus

They weren't making decisions with their own characters thoughts in mind either

The thing in question is a fallen angel they'd agreed to help, because she said she was trying to be redeemed. She betrayed them later and dropped one of htem into a river of lava (which he barely survived). They were pissed and wanted to kill her.

BESW

It is a little puzzling.

Tridus

Then suddenly when their own allies go to defend the Knight, the people with the most reason to want to fight suddenly don't?

I'm used to unexpected decisions at this point, but this is so out of left field it's baffling. A Paladin and a Cleric who were just betrayed and nearly killed are okay to sit back and watch a demon kill their party members?

BESW

I've had players who didn't respond well to sticky moral plots because they wanted to feel no remorse about the monsters they beat up.

And I've had players whose previous Bad Experiences with double-crosses, or Sudden Unreasonable Death, made them gun-shy whenever the odds weren't obviously in their favor.

Was the resurrection ban a blanket effect, or just on the characters whose players wanted it?

Tridus

@BESW It's not an effect at all. Those players had their characters say "if I die, I do not want to be resurrected."

(Presumably they'll refuse one if someone casts it anyway, but I don't actually know that since when someone tells you to not do it you don't tend to spend the 5000g casting it)

BESW

12:52

It sounds like there's something going on that isn't obvious.

Whether it's being gun-shy, or nursing grudges in-character or out of character that you're not aware of, or what.

Tridus

Maybe. If there is, he's not telling me. I've tried

BESW

Well, the other players too.

It sounds like the real problem is poor communication among the group.

Tridus

Yes, that was certainly a problem in this mess.

BESW

But that's never something one's happy to hear, as it's one of the hardest problems to solve once it's festered and is probably the single greatest cause of the "just kick the guy out" slash-and-burn mentality.

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