TRPG General Chat

BESW

15:00

If the lockup room is tampered with while the boss is in room four, the boss engages in the hallway--without the benefit of his home base advantages, but likely with the element of surprise.

Naturally, no plan is going to survive first contact with the players, but that's the basic idea.

Introduce them to combat first, because 3.5 is about combat first and foremost. Then give them a trap, a bit of tactics and RP, a meaningful choice, and a rousing endgame fight.

You've given them a quick but complete story, a sense that the world holds together on its own and makes sense and that they can make a difference in it.

(Obviously I don't expect you to take that all verbatim and do exactly as I'm saying, but that's the kind of structure you can use. Keep it tight and deliberate.)

(And if there's a room without something interesting to do, why's it there?)

Oh, and give the place some class. Not some yawn-inducing grey stone walls and torches with nasty bits on the floor.

Think Indiana Jones meets National Geographic. Deep Aztec-style engravings on the walls and floors with multicolored tiles in geometric patterns; a natural cave with crystals and glowing moss and dripping water that makes music in the puddles; a horrible crypt with walls, ceiling, and floor actually tiled with the bones of the desecrated dead, and a chilly breeze echoes like faint sighs even though there's no ventilation.

Make that world sing in their ears when you describe it, hook 'em and they'll RP their little hearts out.

[is all poetical and junk]

Aaron

15:18

@BESW Just a comment on this it makes it more realistic in my opinion. I mean how often can you go into a ruin/dungeon and find something in every single room? Plus it gives a moment of respite.

BESW

@Aaron If realism is your goal then go for it.

Zachiel

D&D characters never need to go to the bathroom

BESW

Myself, I have no interest in PC potty breaks, and no interest in wasting time at the table with stuff that's not at least interesting.

My players set aside a certain amount of time out of their busy schedules to play the game, and I feel it's my duty not to ask them to do busywork when they show up.

Aaron

I like to throw in a useless room here and there. I have been watching a youtuber who plays a lot of horror games and one of the things I noted was there were a lot of useless rooms. They had junk in them but nothing the player could use. It actually adds to the emersion of the game.

That is just my opinion though :)

BESW

Especially if the system is such that they then spend ten minutes of table time rolling for traps and secret doors, and other things that aren't there.

James J. Regan IV

15:21

Yea, I agree with that...my DM likes to spends a lot of time on pointless travel when nothing happens.

Aaron

I wont wast any more then a few minutes in the room at most.

Waste*

BESW

Most of my players, when given a dead end, are going to assume there's something they're missing.

Aaron

Crap forgot about the edit button.

I will tell them after a little bit there is nothing there. I would assume the same thing for the first few minutes.

Zachiel

Having to roll and spend time to look for secret doors is a bad feature of the game IMHO

BESW

3.5 doesn't do scoping well, so it's jarring to say "and you searched five rooms that contained nothing except goblin potty breaks" after spending most of the session running every detail of every action.

Players don't want a moment of respite if there's nothing in it. Change what's going on, don't just go cold.

Your group is there to do stuff. If you must have empty rooms to appeal to your sense of realism, do your players a favor and tell them they find an empty room.

Don't ask them to make a single roll that is incapable of producing an interesting result. 3.5 makes enough of their rolls pointless without us GMs adding to it.

If you want, roll your own d% when they walk into the room, pretend to consult a table, and then tell them it's empty.

Alex P

15:27

If you're going for realism, though, NO TORCHES ON THE WALLS. They look cool in movies but aren't at all a reasonable device.

BESW

Aye, but if you want realism you'll have a pile of torches at the front end of the cave and somebody'll have to juggle them during combat or the darkvision critters will eat you whole.

Alex P

I think empty rooms are fine if you flag them as empty so people don't waste time on them. Another good use of them is to provide a fall-back point if another fight goes bad. You could also consider a (mechanically-empty) room that has a simple story element in it -- a fresco or tapestry that communicates something about the dungeon, a few books they can look at, &c. -- as a breather. It beats "this is all cobwebs and garbage."

BESW

Yup. Again, something interesting.

Alex P

@BESW Enh, stick a sunrod in your hat.

BESW

Interesting doesn't have to mean combat, but it means more than rolls that cannot possibly produce results.

Zachiel

15:31

@AlexP Enchant your hat with eternal flame

Alex P

Also, my feeling is that if players make a roll in a reasonable environment, they should get something for it. "I Search the room!" "You find nothing." Nothing, really?

BESW

@AlexP Once you reach that point, just pitch in the gold for a handful of rocks with light spells made permanent.

Or eternal flame, same smell.

shatterspike1

donjon: If you succeed your roll to find a secret door, you find one... even if it wasn't originally there

BESW

Pitch 'em through the doorway from cover, drop 'em down shafts, cover 'em up to turn 'em off.

And while you're at it, do the same with at least one rock and the darkness spell.

Hold it covered in your hand as a deadman switch to turn off the lights if someone gets the drop on you.

(3.5 is so silly.)

Alex P

Or if you hate playing a game about light tricks, just put consistent magical-ish lightsources around the dungeon. Or, you know, gaps in the ceiling and it is daytime. ;)

BESW

15:35

My 4e dungeons and caves always had fun light sources.

Alex P

Just saying: the modern impulse to put torches everywhere is ridiculous. Don't do it just because "realism." ;)

Zachiel

@AlexP non-removable ones, possibly.

Alex P

@Zachiel Weird fungus or magic paint or whatever work just fine, yeah.

BESW

Glow-worms on the ceiling; elaborate mirror constructs beaming sunlight in from outside; enchanted torches in funky disco colours that you can take down from the sconces, but the instant you put one down and look away, it vanishes...

Aaron

I was going to use a moss that is talked about in the dm guide that glows. It can be used as food to.

BESW

15:41

Glowing moss is classic.

I prefer atmosphere to realism, but they can serve each other.

Example: you're using moss. Moss likes the damp.

So that means you've got the sound of dripping water, slippery patches on the ground, a water source for your enemies right inside the cave, and some right dank smells.

Food gotta be kept tight or it molds and rots. One of the guards may have a cough from the damp.

This is one of your key tools: take a thing you gotta have mechanically (light source), give it a narrative justification (glowing moss) and then see what other narrative things that implies. As appropriate, bring the mechanics back in.

But remember, it's all gotta go back to serving your primary goals.

If something doesn't serve the primary goals, it probably shouldn't call attention to itself if it's gonna exist at all.

Aaron

Thanks for the help :) It is helping me a lot.

BESW

No problem.

I did a lot of learning early on, still am.

And I've walked some other GMs through things in the past (Hobbs here in the chat, in particular).

My first time GMing, I walked in with a massive stack of prepwork.

Threw out most of it half an hour in, because the players went in a direction I didn't expect, but because I'd done the prepwork I had a world they could wander through.

Zachiel

(trying to get rid of annoying new message notification)

BESW

Since then, I've focused more on the world and the people in it than on the plot.

Often, I don't even have a plot anymore. Just a setting, and NPCs with goals, plans, and backups and contingencies depending on how smart and resourceful they are.

Aaron

@BESW I try to set that up and prepare for a free roam with goals. Much like skyrim has.

BESW

15:51

Then I let the PCs roll through like a lopsided bowling ball knocking down the NPCs' pins, catching attention from various personalities. What the players pay attention to, pays attention right back.

Aaron

But almost every time they find something I didn't think of.

BESW

The stuff the players aren't interested in, I let fade.

Zachiel

@Aaron If you want some literature on the very concept of no-plot games I can suggest you some gaming systems that are built around the idea. Even if you're not using them you can see how it's done

BESW

Aye, you always gotta be ready to roll with the punches and make junk up. Never be afraid to call a "what do I do now?" break, AKA "snack break."

Aaron

Lol.

Ok. I will make another dungeon crawl once I get another lul in work and post it again.

BESW

15:53

If your group is half decent, they'll know when they've thrown you a curve and be happy to give you a moment to figure out how to respond. They know you'll come up with something better that way.

And also never be afraid to ask them for ideas or opinions. Clear paths of communication are great.

GamerJosh

Agree--I've been known to ask my players what they think would happen next. They have always seemed to enjoyed that.

wax eagle

@Zachiel hit escape

Zachiel

@waxeagle thank you

BESW

Some systems formalize it, but asking "How do you think the vault is secured?" and "Who do you think put Sparky Sparky Boom Man on your trail?" can get your own ideas flowing even if you don't use theirs.

(It also makes me feel more free to throw in stuff I can't explain yet.)

Zachiel

@BESW I'd call him "Explosion man"

BESW

15:55

@Zachiel I believe his formal title was "Combustion Man."

Zachiel

@BESW dang! I never remember one punchline right

KRyan

so, is the FAQ question supposed to get closed?

3

Q: How does all the various Stack Exchange functionality work?

The FAQ If you want to know how asking/answering, tagging, voting, bounties, or whatever works, all the answers are linked from the Meta Stack Exchange master FAQ question: FAQ for Stack Exchange sites. For some weird reason there's no link to that FAQ in our FAQ (and we can only edit the first...

3 Close votes, but I have to imagine if it was intended to be closed, @mxyzplk would have done so

I mean, it is an answer not a question

but it might be a special case

I don't know who Donald Featherstone is, but nice run, dude. [re: Feed item “RIP Donald Featherstone (1918-2013)”]

BESW

16:23

Can I get opinions on this answer? I'm not sure if it's coherent.

@KRyan Does look like a case of "shouldn't this have been a self-Q&A instead of just a Q?"

BESW

16:34

@Zimul8r Hi!

The Oracle

16:51

1

Q: Is it ever appropriate to revert someone's edit to their own question?

Related to the recent question about edited questions obsolescing answers. In that case, there was a clarification added to the question that nullified my answer; it was deleted (and I probably should have done so myself). That’s fine. But I have seen cases where an edit to the question doesn’t ...

discussion editing

Zimul8r

@BESW hey there

BESW

What's new?

Zimul8r

Your answer seems coherent to me. Not a FATE player, but from what little I know of Cortex+, I understood what you were trying to relate.

Just killing a few minutes till I go back to work.

BESW

Thanks.

@CloudiDust Hi!

There are actually a wide number of RPGs that play up characters' weaknesses for the sake of telling more interesting stories, but it's certainly true that most of the really visible, frontline RPGs aren't as concerned about it.

For example: Characters in Do: Temple of the Flying Pilgrims have only two mechanical features describing their character: How they help people and how they get in trouble.

Any time they try to help someone they automatically succeed at it, but any time the game mechanics come up "trouble," they automatically get into trouble too. (And then they have to help themselves out of that trouble when next they can, if someone else doesn't first.)

CloudiDust

Hi~

BESW

17:07

Hey.

wax eagle

hiya

@KRyan oh don't bring that thing up, it just makes me angry

CloudiDust

Sorry that I type slowly as English is not my native language and it's midnight here. So I must go to bed. @BESW Thanks for your answer and the information on the chat room and Do. I would check Do out someday. Next time I hope we will have a chat. Good night everyone!

BESW

No problem!

It's 3am over here. Bed soon for me, too.

Joshua Aslan Smith

back whats up

shatterspike1

@AlexP I'd say Risus is deep in the sense that it allows for quite a few choices, but it doesn't really provide a strong framework for those choices either. Append that definition to "A lot of meaningful choices within the system".

Metool

17:19

Whoa, I'm second last in the chat lineup.

Or was.

wax eagle

now you're second :P

Metool

No, you!

shatterspike1

This is silly. Also, now wax eagle is third.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@shatterspike1 maybe add your discussion of deep vs complex in response to me as part of your question? I dont really have an answer as I go for the grid all the time, but I thought it might help you get better, more on topic answers

shatterspike1

It's actually a thing better defined in some circles and quite a bit off topic to my original question; essentially, mechanically heavy in tabletop RPGs = complex

Joshua Aslan Smith

17:23

I mean, you question your call, its just you used those terms in the question as a description about what you are looking for is all, I can understand how it could be distracting though

shatterspike1

If your system only has two rules but allows you to do a million things with said rules, that system is deep

I think I heard a few definitions from both David Sirlin (board game designer) and Extra Credits (video game design show) that were fairly similar, so I was under the impression the terms were fairly well defined. Should I link to those?

Joshua Aslan Smith

Complexity is generally well understood, but deep is a very subjective term when applied to anything that isnt talking about distance through liquids

BESW

@JoshuaAslanSmith Depth isn't limited to liquids. [pedant] It's just a different context for height, usually interior height: caves, boxes, trenches, trouble.

Metool

Height, Width, Depth?

Joshua Aslan Smith

@besw true, I was just thinking of the silliest way I could state the quantitative definition of depth vs the subjective qualitative depth

shatterspike1

17:30

In this particular case Depth = number of meaningful choices you can make within a system.

So if someone never takes a certain ability because that ability is strictly less useful than an alternative, having that ability increases complexity but not depth

BESW

Generally, as a metaphorical measure in RPGs, depth is going to be how significant a given element is, while breadth is many elements there are.

If you've got lots of mechanics, each with a single application, it's wide but not deep.

Joshua Aslan Smith

yeah I mean I was just getting at what he thinks it means

since it was his question

I do agree with chess being deep

BESW

If you've got a small handful of mechanics but between them they're going to address any situation you might run into, you've got depth without breadth.

shatterspike1

@BESW Well, it could potentially be deep, it's just got a nasty tradeoff complexity-wise.

BESW

Anyway, bedtime for me.

shatterspike1

17:33

Unless said element's single application is useless or trivial, in which case it's just an unnecessary increase in complexity.

Goodnight

Joshua Aslan Smith

gotcha good night

shatterspike1

Roll for shoes is an odd game in a paradigm like this though: it allows you to do potentially anything with one rule.

Alex P

17:57

@shatterspike1 Thanks for clarifying. Is there a way we could work that into the question a bit? I'm trying to think of the best phrasing...

Is it fair to say you want some, erm, tactical depth? But maybe not quite tactical in the D&D3/4 way?

shatterspike1

Yeah, that's closer to what I want, without the nitpicky positioning. More options...

The Oracle

19:04

0

Q: How can we encourage people to wait before accepting answers?

Increasingly, we are seeing question askers wait only a matter of hours before accepting an answer. My understanding is that it would be far preferable to wait at least a couple of days before doing so, as this gives others the opportunity to give what might be much better answers. How can we en...

discussion questions

Alex P

19:25

@shatterspike1 You might want to un-accept my answer. Might get you more views/responses. :D

shatterspike1

Ah, well.

It was up between you and Rolemaster, anyhow, given that I own Anima, which I understand to be a variant of Rolemaster

I might wait a bit then

Alex P

Your choice, really.

I think this is the kind of question where people will burst in with answers anyway.

Regardless of whether it's got an accepted one.

shatterspike1

If only The Riddle of Steel was still in print...

Alex P

I think there was some plan for a fan update.

Let me do some research.

Alex P

19:43

@shatterspike1 I found a derived fan game. Added a link to the post.

shatterspike1

Awesome

wax eagle

hey folks, keep your eyes open for spammers/nonsense posts

shatterspike1

What's going on?

wax eagle

some waves of cross site spammers have been hitting. We just got tapped though an SE staffer was in the middle of taking care of it so it was only on our site for a few minutes

shatterspike1

Ah. Will do.

wax eagle

19:53

cast a spam/not welcome in our community flag and post the link in here.

Joshua Aslan Smith

20:09

nize

BESW

21:07

Oh, man. Janelle Monáe's got a new album coming out! [bounce]

Zachiel

@BESW Is she the one that sang the refrain in We Are Young?

No, it wasn't the refrain, it was the special

Alex P

21:32

@BESW Neko Case also. Truly we live in a golden age.

BESW

22:48

@Zachiel Yes, not that you can really even tell.

I learned of her from Jeff and Shaenon's Top Five Sci-Fi Concept Albums and fell in love.

> In the dystopian world of The Metropolis Suite, an android is condemned to death for falling in love with a human and flees to the underground, where she becomes a prophet and heroine to the oppressed masses. While organizing a rebellion, she sends a duplicate, the Janelle Monae we know, back in time to the 21st century to inflame the people of the past with Rock.

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