TRPG General Chat

doppelgreener

10:00

@BESW And that's why I like Fate.

"This makes no sense." "Oh, I meant it to work this way." "Okay."

trogdor

lol

BESW

Should I include the "dictation" idea in the comments into the question itself?

I thought it was self-evident, but maybe not.

doppelgreener

Yeah, you could, given the situation

Alex P

I would.

Inbar Rose

10:16

@BESW RAW/RAI ?

BESW

Rules As Written vs Rules As Intended

Inbar Rose

Ah, cool. :)

Hence the phrase "The DM is always right"

BESW

[shudder] That gets arguments going, too.

Inbar Rose

Well - its interpretation (quite ironically) is that any disputes about rules should be handled by the DM.

BESW

Many RPG communities have taken to calling it "Rule 0," and treating it as if it were a Rule Of RPGs rather than a system or table rule.

Metool

10:21

So I got a ruling.

BESW

And it's often used to justify the most heinous abuses of GM power.

Metool

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. Unless it's just a spell-like ability that mimics a duck, as is the case with Chill Touch.

BESW

28

Q: Is there a limit to Rule 0?

Rule Zero: All other rules can be changed by the GM. I appreciate that there is a massive amount of work that goes into be a GM and the last thing that any GM wants or deserves is to have his players constantly questioning everything they do. However, a group I am currently playing with has ...

doppelgreener

Rule 0 implies the GM can and is right to say "No, it's this way and that's final" to his players, regardless of how they feel.

Inbar Rose

Obviously, if players disagree... they just wont play.

doppelgreener

10:27

It would be right sometimes, but the GM should not be the game's dictator.

@InbarRose And that is precisely why it is a problem!

Inbar Rose

exactly.

the GM is just one of the players.

His job is just much bigger

BESW

There's something very unsettling about "If you don't like the way the GM does it, your only recourse is to put up or leave."

Inbar Rose

All decisions should be a collaboration of everyone in the game.

doppelgreener

@InbarRose Something D&D doesn't say. The community has somehow come to the understanding that the DM can be above the players, and tell them how it is without working it out with them.

BESW

But that's the way a lot of groups think, and I find that Rule 0 enables that kind of attitude.

doppelgreener

10:28

Or at least, some parts of it.

Inbar Rose

Its like most games, (not just RPG's) that have a simple phrase along the lines of "if there are any disputes, the game's owner has the final say" like monopoly or something

There needs to be some way to determine problems, and it should be written somewhere in the games rules - else any dispute becomes an argument and nothing ever gets done.

It might not be the a great way to handle it.. but its probably the "best" so far.

BESW

> You’re the Chairman, Not God Approach your position as arbiter of the rules by thinking of yourself as “first among equals” in a committee, rather than as an absolute authority. (Fate Core System 181)

Inbar Rose

yes - but there are also aspects beyond the game..

BESW

> [snip] Your job is really to have the “last word” on any rules-related subject, rather than to dictate from your chair. Keep that in mind.

Inbar Rose

Usually the DM (or gm, or st, or whatever) is the one who also organizes the game and the players, and its usually played at their house.. and they usually decide on the other players, and on when the games are....

BESW

10:32

From what I've seen, Rule 0 arose from early gaming issues to do with poorly constructed mechanics and the feeling that the role of GM was a "chore."

Metool

(the general term is game master from what I've seen)

Inbar Rose

:)

doppelgreener

Storyteller and dungeon master are more system-specific terms, yeah

In Fate, for instance, the GM is most assuredly not the storyteller

Game master is nice and neutral so far as I've seen.

BESW

So in order to encourage people to GM, and to provide quick arbitration of the rules' vagaries, the roles of the GM that had been casually common (choosing the participants, being the most knowledgeable of the rules, etc) were codified into being rules themselves.

Inbar Rose

I like Adventure.. where the whole approach to the game is that its a movie....

The GM is the "Director" and the players are "Actors"

BESW

10:34

There is no reason that a GM must be the rules expert, but D&D explicitly says he should be.

Inbar Rose

they control their characters in the "movie" and if they want to make changes to the "script" they can do so by using "inspiration" points.

BESW

Making the GM the social leader by virtue of game mechanics is unhealthy.

Inbar Rose

But its natural....

BESW

I'm sorry, but it's not. It may be common, but it's not natural.

Inbar Rose

okay..

think about this for a moment...

BESW

10:35

It is a product of the way early RPGs developed, and has been codified to the point where a GM is now assumed to have those roles.

I didn't start my first D&D game; I was roped into GMing it through social pressure from the rest of the group.

Inbar Rose

A bunch of friends want to play a game... who decides? lets say they all decide... and they decide to play a roleplaying game. Okay - which roleplaying game? lets say they all decide on one....

Now - for arguments sake. lets say its D&D.

That means one player becomes the GM

BESW

My groups have regularly been held at other players' houses, not the house of the GM, when they're not held at neutral third-party locations.

Avner Shahar-Kashtan

Hey-ho.

Inbar Rose

Now - anytime there is a dispute about the game.. what happens?

BESW

@InbarRose In D&D, they look at the book and the book says the DM is the final arbiter.

Inbar Rose

10:38

they all decide how it should end up.. lets say.. well - what if the player who is the DM doesn't like it? They could have decided to be the DM because they wanted to play a certain way..

BESW

That doesn't mean it's natural for the GM to be the final arbiter; it means the book told them that's they way to do it.

Inbar Rose

yeah - but if the DM doesn't like something... the game gets pretty much ruined

Since they can control everythingh

doppelgreener

@InbarRose And what if a player doesn't?

Metool

Up to a point.

doppelgreener

Honestly, the DM could suck it up and go with their way of doing it.

Inbar Rose

10:39

I am aware of that

BESW

@InbarRose What? The GM is chosen because he's willing to make the extra effort, or he's better at helping tell stories, or any of a number of other reasons that don't make everyone equally able to do so.

Inbar Rose

I said earlier - a game should ultimately be a collaberative decision. I am playing devils advocate for a moment - specifically showing how I totally understand the problem, and it is the best solution (imo) so far.

doppelgreener

Yeah there is no correlation between "the GM doesn't get his way" and "the game is ruined and the GM is unwilling to play". That sounds like a control freak GM who can't handle when things don't go his way. :/

Inbar Rose

no no

listen

Metool

excuse me while I bash my head against a table

doppelgreener

10:40

I am actually! Quite patiently. o:

Inbar Rose

If a player decides that his mcguffin should do X and the GM wants it to do Y... the GM will just go around and do things he wants anyway in a different way.. and it just becomes frustrating

BESW

What point are you specifically trying to make?

Avner Shahar-Kashtan

This reminds me of an old Knights of the Dinner Table strip.

doppelgreener

@InbarRose You are describing a GM who is not an easy person to deal with.

Inbar Rose

What I am saying, is that the DM should always agree with how the game should be played, else he will just play it his way anyway... (obviously - everythign should agree) but all things being equal (which they arent) the DM should always be right.. else the game will just break.

doppelgreener

10:41

If I were that GM, I would talk with my players until they were happy with it going my way, or until I understood why they wanted it their way, and then we'd go along with whichever way we could be happy with by consensus.

@InbarRose No he won't. That's a bad and pretty immature GM you're describing.

Inbar Rose

no kiddingh

but I am talking about the concept

doppelgreener

The GM you are describing is not a typical GM.

BESW

It sounds like you're arguing from the assumption that Rule 0 is the default state of an RPG, and effort must be made to move away from it.

Inbar Rose

the GM should always be on the side of the decisions

no

argh

doppelgreener

You are giving us bad examples of an immature GM and saying that's the way it works. :P

Inbar Rose

10:42

You are not understanding me at all

... brb

BESW

Maybe you should try saying what point you're trying to make before you start playing devil's advocate to prove it.

Metool

It's frustrating wanting to talk about something lighter than an argument such as this, but realizing that because this is an argument about table dynamics it'll get 15x as much interest as a notice I'm looking for a story... person for a campaign.

doppelgreener

@InbarRose There's a communication breakdown here then. I am trying to take you at your word, really! But you're describing very high-concept situations - nothing concrete for me to deal with at all, are we talking about how a plot-critical NPC behaves, or how a plot-critical mechanic behaves, or are we talking about how opportunity attacks work? - and telling me the GM can and will handle it with very little maturity.

BESW

Because we're very confused.

It sounds like you're saying that although the GM should work with his players, if that means that things go in a direction he doesn't like then he'll ignore the players and keep doing what he wants.

Besides which, I can't tell if you're talking about in-game or out-of-game decision making, since you earlier said that one reason Rule 0 should be implemented is that the GM is the social host.

Avner Shahar-Kashtan

Dammit. No searchable KODT archive available.

The gist of it was the party protesting the "game master" moniker, preferring a less dominant title, like Game Custodian or Game Trustee. "I like Game Trustee. It denotes responsability without suggesting authority"

Inbar Rose

10:49

Okay - I will try to start again.....

BESW

@AvnerShahar-Kashtan "Game Counsellor."

Inbar Rose

First of all.... When a bunch of players get together to play a game... there are going to be disagreements. There must be a solution to this problem. And it should be as simple as possible as to remove continuous arguments from the game to a final decision.

There are many possible ways to solve this

A vote, a random roll, or a single person who decides - are just examples.

Any type of game could be better solved by different methods.. Some games have online forums for erreta's or dispute solving...

I am saying that games that specifically have a "GM" role, should always be solved by that player (not because it is always going to be good, etc.. but because it is the best way to deal with it out of the other options)

The reasoning behind this....

a GM role is in control of the game, and has power to do whatever he wants in the game.

If someone doesn't like something and a dispute comes out.... and lets say it is solved by a vote.. and teh GM loses... he can still do whatever he wants

Thus - any dispute should end with teh GM being "correct" because he will be anyway... and this solves the problem faster, and easier, than voting or arguing.

OBVIOUSLY - if people don't like it.. they will just stop playing....

But in order for any game that has a GM to work.. the GM should always be right.

BESW

Okay, two things I strongly disagree with based on personal and anecdotal experience.

Metool

[sigh]

BESW

First: I have great faith in players to be able to figure out differences without needing to immediately resort to final arbitration, although it is useful to be able to say "We'll do it this way for now and make a final decision later, so the game can continue."

Inbar Rose

10:55

A P.S. to what I said: As mentioned before, MY OPINION is that all decisions should be decided by everyone. But this translates to - the player who is the GM will eventually agree with everything...

BESW

Second: The GM is not in control of the game, and does not have the power to do whatever he wants in it. Quite aside from various systems which make that untrue, I can tell you horror stories about GMs who are socially manipulated into doing whatever the players want, regardless of mechanics, story, or friendship.

The GM has just as much control as the group gives him, regardless of what the mechanics say.

Inbar Rose

Indeed.

I am totally against this dictatorship

BESW

On the one hand, this means the group can leave. On the other hand, it means the group can abuse the GM just as much as the GM can abuse the group.

Inbar Rose

I am just saying that this is the so-far best solution to the problem (as far as being included as a rule)

BESW

Rule 0 solves none of these problems, and if they aren't problems... then Rule 0 isn't needed.

Inbar Rose

10:57

Much like the phrase "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others"

BESW

Rule 0 worked for older game systems, in the infancy of the medium.

We've learned new strategies, gained new understanding, and moved past it.

Inbar Rose

It is a horrible solution, but it is necessary, and it is probably the simplest way to solve the general problem of disputes.

BESW

I have never found it necessary.

Inbar Rose

Whenever there is a dispute - people are going to be unhappy... at least this way.. the game mostly gets to continue on....

I would say this is a solution that has proved itself (by the sheer fact it is so prevalent - much like evolution) to be the best solution so far...

BESW

There are plenty of other ways to resolve disputes, and many of them do not leave people unhappy. Rule 0 is quick, yes, but if it's necessary than this indicates that the group dynamic is already unhealthy.

2

@InbarRose Many things are common which are not best.

Inbar Rose

11:00

best in this case is a subjective term.. So lets not use it.. I would instead use "most successful"

BESW

Rule 0 (in this context) is trying to solve social problems with game mechanics.

That's bad.

Inbar Rose

I agree

But they have to be solved somehow

BESW

There are better, more successful ways to do it.

Inbar Rose

I am sure there are

but do you have any that work globally? and so simply?

That can be included in most games that have GM roles?

doppelgreener

@InbarRose Best by what criteria?

BESW

11:01

Rule 0 is not best, nor is it global. It is quick, efficient, and almost guaranteed to suppress social problems and make them fester.

Inbar Rose

I am talking specifically of rules-dispute solutions for games that include a GM.

doppelgreener

"Resolves things fastest" is not the a good criteria. You know what solves things faster? Any player who has a disagreement with the GM gets shot in the face. With a real gun and real bullets. You will have one, maybe two disagreements ever.

And all of them get resolved in about five seconds.

You don't even need to talk about it!

BESW

There is cleanup.

Inbar Rose

:)

doppelgreener

That's post-game stuff.

Inbar Rose

11:03

If "the GM is always right" is not a good solution, what is?

BESW

It depends on the group!

Inbar Rose

Please - give me an example. You keep saying that there are "better" ways.

doppelgreener

And the dispute.

BESW

There is no universal solution, including Rule 0.

Inbar Rose

That is what I am saying

Every problem has its own best way to be solved.

doppelgreener

11:03

I'd be happy to give an example. Should I?

BESW

But there are plenty of things to try.

Please!

doppelgreener

2

Q: Staff of Knives

Staff of Knives - Level 2+ This steel-gray wooden staff transforms into a steel-hard wooden dagger on command. Lvl 2 [+1] 510gp Lvl 7 [+2] 2,600gp Lvl 12 [+3] 13,000gp Lvl 17 [+4] 65,000gp Lvl 22 [+5] 325,000gp Lvl 27 [+6] 1,625,000gp Implement (Staff) Enh...

dnd-4e magic-items

Inbar Rose

Yes... but when writing a game.. you need to include something to solve disputes.. this "rule 0" seems to be the most accepted, successful, solution to solving rules disputes.

Metool

I'm going to take a nap, someone try to leave a reminder that I want to ask a question (not the kind that would go on main site)

BESW

Almost all solutions to these problems must be engineered at the social level, not the game level, though, because it's not a game problem. It's a social problem.

Inbar Rose

11:04

Yes... but the game needs to include a method for solving these problems.

BESW

@InbarRose Why?

doppelgreener

Player says it still counts as a staff in knife form. GM says it should count as a knife only. The group talks about the ambiguous wording. The player who owns this staff tells the group it'd be cooler and funner for them all. They all generally agree, and the player casts his wizard spell with his staff-dagger.

Note the above does not include a GM ruling. Just involves the players talking it out and coming to an agreement.

BESW

We don't need rules for deciding what movie to see with our friends.

Inbar Rose

No kidding

Metool

@InbarRose no, the game can suggest one, but ultimately the group decides how to do it

Inbar Rose

11:06

@Metool YES!

doppelgreener

@Inbar What kind of point are you trying to make exactly..?

Inbar Rose

In fact... screw Rule 0 what about rule -1 "feel free to change any rules however you want"

doppelgreener

It seems like you're arguing that this is anything but good and people can do whatever they want but it's the best way despite the fact you don't like it.

Inbar Rose

yes

doppelgreener

... how is it the best way if you don't even like it?

it is not the optimal way by any criteria, nor even by a meeting point of criteria.

Inbar Rose

11:07

Bureaucracy sucks. But its still the best way to run a country.

doppelgreener

It is low on social satisfaction, low on speed (arguments and the fact it encourages not listening), low on expertise (why not have the player who's actually the rules expert make the rulings?) etc.

Inbar Rose

No one likes it.. but without it.. there would be chaos..

Metool

the topic of group dynamics irritates and confuses me because what works in one case doesn't work in another

doppelgreener

@InbarRose We're not talking about a country, we're talking about a group of five people.

Inbar Rose

And yes - of course if a few people get together to solve a local problem of their own, they can ignore it. But for the general populate, it would be chaos without it.

Metool

11:08

[headache]

doppelgreener

@InbarRose You're making the "every group is dysfunctional and stupid except mine who can uniquely cope without this stuff" generalisation.

Yes, absolutely, no other group can cope and every other group would be in chaos without rule 0 to help them!

Inbar Rose

Rule 0 is there as a default.

And I think its probably the best default there is.

doppelgreener

No it's not :D

@InbarRose No you don't. You think it sucks.

BESW

Rule 0 is the first solution that the RPG community came up with.

Inbar Rose

In my opinion - the BEST solution is if all the players can agree together on something. (but this ultimately means that the GM is right.)

BESW

11:10

That's why it's prevalent, (that, and since it enforces the GM's position of power, it's a self-perpetuating meme).

doppelgreener

I am going to

stop having this conversation

because it is not something I can continue :D

Metool

THANK GOD

Inbar Rose

hehe

doppelgreener

@InbarRose There is huge conflict in the fact you keep saying it sucks and yet you're saying it's the best. You are making huge assumptions about other groups. This is not something I can work with. At all. On any level.

I would be happy to have any other conversation with you but this sucks. :(

Inbar Rose

I am sorry

That is not exactly what I am saying

But I understand your frustration

doppelgreener

11:12

It may not be what you are trying to express but unfortunately we still have to communicate with words.

And it is the words you are using that are saying this.

BESW

Small group dynamics are not national dynamics, prevalence does not imply value, there are many other options for groups and systems to consider, the role of the GM is often nothing like what you're describing, and Rule 0 eliminates the space for dialogue that is crucial to any functional social group. Okay, I'm done.

Inbar Rose

The point I am trying to make. (and I will end with this) is that ultimately, if the GM is not satisfied, the game will probably not be fun to play. In which case, it is best if the GM is "right" this could be by decree, or by a vote. But if a game has a GM, he should always be "right". (personally - I think this should be by a join decision by all the players - but even then, the GM is "right")

And - rule 0 is a shortcut to that end.

Avner Shahar-Kashtan

@InbarRose I think the major disagreement with you here is that an unsatisfied GM is more of a problem than an unsatisfied player. Both are as bad, and as destructive to the game.

3

Inbar Rose

I agree

BESW

Yeah, that seems to be the crux of it: "if only the GM or a player can be happy, keep the GM happy" implies the tyrannical GM who will take it out on the players when he doesn't get his way... even if he may not mean to.

Inbar Rose

11:16

A you mentioned earlier "the gm is first among equals"

Avner Shahar-Kashtan

I think an unhappy GM is easier to notice than an unsatisifed player, in many cases, but both are as pernicious, and both can make a game no fun for anyone.

Inbar Rose

I totally agree.

Avner Shahar-Kashtan

In that case, Rule 0 is destructive and counterproductive.

Because it gives you a way out of establishing concensus.

consensus? yes.

Inbar Rose

Lets give an example. Lets say there is a dispute about whether a player can tie a rope to a bunch of daggers to make a make-shift grappling hook.....

Metool

Currently there is no game for me at all at the rate I'm getting responses. But I'm way too bloody tired now.

Inbar Rose

11:18

there are no rules for that in the game, the GM could say "no you cant do that"

and the player would say "but I can do it in real life"

BESW

If a group needs to make decisions based on which of its members is able to make the biggest stink about not getting their way, no game rule can help them.

Inbar Rose

If we apply rule 0, it just doesn't happen.

If we vote, and the players decide that it should be allowed...

The upset GM can just say "well - you do it, you throw, it fails and you kill yourself"

Obiously that GM would be fired if that was his job... but you get my point

BESW

Not really. Rule 0 isn't going to keep that GM from running a horrible game nobody wants to be in.

Avner Shahar-Kashtan

@InbarRose But there is no rule, ever, that will prevent childish people from ruining things for everyone.

Inbar Rose

No kidding

Avner Shahar-Kashtan

11:19

So why establish this rule?

Inbar Rose

but if we apply rule 0, we never get to that point

the player would most likely be upset for a few minutes, but get over it..

Avner Shahar-Kashtan

Of course we will. Because by invoking Rule 0 and saying "You can't do that and that's final", you've ruined the game just as effectively as by your "you try and fail and die" scenario.

BESW

M'rr.

Inbar Rose

You know what?

Listen. lets end this discussion.

BESW

I've got some horror stories about GMs who ruin games through the use of Rule 0.

Inbar Rose

11:21

I think we can all agree that there are way too many ways to solve this, and that everyone has their own way

BESW

@Metool You can come back now.

Inbar Rose

Personally, when I encounter a dispute in the game with my groups, we all stop the game and discuss the situation until we all agree on how to continue.

Metool

Okay this is almost certainly bad for my health but I want to see how this resolves.

Ah.

Avner Shahar-Kashtan

I think the main bone of contention here can be found in your last comment, "the player would be upset for a few minutes but get over it". I think this isn't "getting over it", but shifting the tone of the game from a collaborative way to have fun to a confrontational arena between players and GM.

Inbar Rose

Probably

But I think we all know that this is headed nowhere.

@Metool has something he wants to ask.

BESW

11:23

My games have done it different ways depending on the group; generally they trust me to make decisions that are best for the immediate situation, with the understanding that we'll get out the books and have a talk about it when we aren't invested in a particular outcome later; my in-game decrees do not set precedent.

Metool

Yeah that was when I wasn't struggling to stay awake.

It'll have to wait.

Inbar Rose

Sorry.

Avner Shahar-Kashtan

@BESW We have a similar system. Whenever a dispute arises, we call PSD (Post Session Discussion) accept the first ruling (usually what the player wanted to do) and check it later.

Inbar Rose

Much like when playing a board game and finding out that something you were doing was being done wrong - you keep doing it for the remainder of the game to be consistent, but then subsequent games you use the proper rule. :)

Avner Shahar-Kashtan

...or just houserule it in. We had some houserules for Three Dragon Ante that we kept for years, until the expansion came in and changed it for us.

Metool

11:27

Ugh, found a trope page whose image portrays an iconic example of the trope but not an obvious example of the trope. A guy with a ridged forehead holding some strange metal thing that looks like you could maybe jab someone with the pointy end, for Proud Warrior Race Guy.

Avner Shahar-Kashtan

What, Klingons?

Metool

I guess, yeah.

Metool

11:46

Well I suppose I might as well ask now...

@BESW Basically, because one of my friends likes more grimdark stuff, I asked if they wanted to play in Equestria Divided, and they said yes, but I'm not sure what to do with it.

Inbar Rose

So, whats the question?

Where is the conflict?

Metool

I wanted to know if I could get general help.

Inbar Rose

I understand.. but with what?

" I'm not sure what to do with it." - do you want advice? What exactly is your concern? what is confusing you? what is the debate about?

BESW

Tone? Creature creation? How to use canon NPCs in a campaign?

Metool

Mostly some creative input, help interpreting the setting material where it's unclear, and pushing me to actually work on this.

Inbar Rose

11:57

You need to narrow this down

Pick a specific task, or problem, and request help with it

Metool

@InbarRose You're holding this to the standards of a stackexchange question but I'm actually looking for what you could call a co-GM.

BESW

I'd be happy to help if I can, but we don't know much about your context.

I don't know the system or the source material very well, for one thing.

I'm not sure how much experience you have with the system, or with running established settings in it.

Metool

I can handle all the mechanics aspects, quite easily, it's just that I keep second-guessing myself on things I really shouldn't.

Zachiel

Hello everypony

Metool

Given only the material presented and the word "loot" from the player, there is a bit of freedom I'm not sure what to do with.

trogdor

12:07

@Zachiel lol

hello as well

BESW

Okay, so this is an issue.

6

Q: Looking for a game that does not need anything but character sheets

I would like to run an RPG, but one of my players has a hard time sitting up for long periods of time. What sorts of games can I try running given that she needs to be lying in a hospital bed and would not be able to see any maps or minis if they were used? The group sits in chairs scattered al...

system-recommendation semi-diceless

I'm under the impression that each game should be suggested as a separate answer.

Inbar Rose

@BESW That seems reasonable.... But not practical.

I might have a few suggestions that I would put into the same answer and discuss their similarities, differences, and why one should be chosen over a nother.

BESW

If one should be chosen over another, only suggest that.

If each of them have different merits, then each should be allowed to stand on its own terms.

Otherwise you're giving the systems you're recommending a discussion that is discouraged for systems suggested by others.

6

Q: Should omnibus answers be split?

In a comment to this question, I asked @aramis if he thought his answer should be split. He replied that he didn't want to. Instead of continuing the discussion in comments, I thought it was time to move this to meta. Because what I really started to wonder was if splitting answers like that (n...

discussion

5

Q: For a System Recommendation question, is it better to give one answer suggesting multiple systems or one answer per system?

I wrote three answers to Are there any good tabletop RPGs for young beginning players. I made it three answers instead of one so that they could be voted on individually. (I could swear that, at the time, I’d done that because it was recommended.) A couple of years later, someone combined my ans...

discussion

Zachiel

@BESW mmmmmhhhhhh tries to find the strength to do that

BESW

I seem to be in the minority on this one in terms of meta, though I know I've seen it suggested.

doppelgreener

12:20

It's tough to work out exactly but sometimes SE answers do need to address multiple points, and it doesn't work to put them all separately.

e.g. a stack overflow answer might say "try this or this or this" and then bring them together in the end and talk about them. It does not always work in such circumstance to suggest they say "try this" and "try this" and "try this" in separate answers, though sometimes it does.

There is a distinction between an answer which contains three solutions which would be equally useful posted separately, or an answer which presents three solutions together in such a way that they are greater than the sum of their parts. Probably such an answer contains discussion within some solutions which acknowledges the other solutions, or contains a discussion of the other solutions outside the solution itself.

49

A: How do I fix this plot hole?

Don't. This is something I started to do in my campaigns. When the players derail the plot, I build a new one for them to follow. If they want to focus on how the bad guys have tech that isn't public knowledge, they can. They're ignoring the larger problem of "oh crap, zombies" while doing so, h...

Would you tell this guy to split his answer into "Don't do it" and "If you must" parts?

Because we could have an answer saying "Don't", and an answer saying "Do it this way", but together they are not the same as an answer that says "You shouldn't, but if you really have to, do it this way, but you should be trying not to do this in the first place"

BESW

Aye, I get that.

And it's totally different from a set of unrelated bullet points like (sorry) @Zachiel's answer to the prone gaming question.

Inbar Rose

A list of suggestions is totally not an answer.

But if that list comes at the end of a good answer saying "here are some other options you could look at"

I think it is okay.

BESW

Zach's got a number of good answers, but they're unrelated to each other in any way which makes their inclusion in a single post useful. If the answer is that multiple posts would clutter the page or something, fine.

But I don't think that the arguments I'm hearing in chat apply to this kind of thing; you're both arguing to support a kind of answer format I'm not challenging.

As I understand it, the meta wisdom is currently that Zach's post should stay because it encourages the "I agree" or "I like" behaviours, rather than the "this is useful".

doppelgreener

@BESW Looking at it, yes, I agree. There's nothing making this a whole and complete answer other than the bold thing which doesn't really contribute much.

BESW

Which says nothing about the quality of the answer, and just says "Eh, keep them together so that they're less likely to attract clutter."

doppelgreener

12:33

Here is a crux: we could have three answers, each of which suggest three out of six systems, but a different set each time.

Which are all partial duplicates of each other.

At least if one has merits beyond the individual game suggestions it's good enough to keep on its own and call it a whole and complete and indivisible answer...

This is tough!

Zachiel

@BESW I think it's more of a forum-like answer and thus not adequate for a Q&A format

BESW

@Zachiel Sorry to be picking on your answer; it's a convenient example.

Zachiel

All the time I've spent looking for that the Duplex strip where Fang asks Eno to play basketball, I caould have separated my suggestions.

BESW

(And by the current meta/mod consensus, it's totally okay!)

Zachiel

@BESW I have no problems with that. I'm a lazy user today.

@BESW The problem is I agree with you.

BESW

13:37

Whut.

I have no response to that.

Inbar Rose

Awesome.

Wow -- it got better :)

BESW

Eeeh. He just moved the goalpost.

Inbar Rose

?

BESW

HP is equally meta.

Inbar Rose

Then only a computer-game lets you know the level and only if you hack. I did not mean joke. I generally play this kind and DM gives me exp penalty. — huseyin tugrul buyukisik 1 min ago

" I generally play this kind and DM gives me exp penalty" ...

BESW

13:52

So he's just moved it from "knowing about levels in-game" to "knowing about HP in-game," and in fact has increased the level of meta knowledge required because you have to know the relationship between level and natural healing.

Inbar Rose

Anyway - I would downvote / flag as spam.

BESW

Mmm. I'm happy the site gave him time to make his case before the downvoting started.

Zachiel

I'm glad I saw that

Inbar Rose

14:17

:P

user1810077

Hi!

BESW

@user1810077 Hey, how's it going?

user1810077

Are in DnD4e, skill check require an action ( during battle)?

BESW

Depends on what's being done.

wax eagle

@user1810077 depends on context.

BESW

14:24

Usually if you look up the thing you're trying to do with the skill check in the PHB or Glossary, it'll tell you the kind of action required.

user1810077

Heal check for give to another player a savethrow

wax eagle

@user1810077 that's a standard

user1810077

Damn. My character so close to death =\ Thx

Zachiel

@BESW I guess it's going pretty bad, then.

BESW

Guess so. Sorry to hear it.

wax eagle

14:32

@user1810077 the have you spent your second wind yet?

if not, then a companion can make a DC 10 heal check (Still standard) to let you spend it, even if your KO'd

Alex P

Dang. Did I miss my chance to crap on Rule Zero?

Inbar Rose

@AlexP yes.

Alex P

Fine.

I'll find something else to crap on.

Zachiel

Don't worry, I missed it too.

BESW

14:50

In light of the impending news of the Twelfth Doctor casting, this seems appropriate:

►

user61230

15:41

Revealing the casting is downright stupid and I can't understand why he did it.

user61230

We basically know all of the 50th at this point. We know who's going to be in it, what the conflict is, how it's going to work out, and what happens to the Doctor at the end. Oh, and the biggest surprise of the show has been ruined.

user61230

He has basically given out a plot summary for the show. Might as well not brother watching.

user61230

</obligatory DW rant>

BESW

[blink]

50th has nothing to do with the casting of the 12th.

11 doesn't get put down until the Christmas special.

user61230

Did I get my spoilers mixed up?

user61230

15:50

Well crap. Angry rant partially retracted.

user61230

Still think it's a bad idea, though.

user61230

.....well this is embarrassing.

user61230

I'll uh. Just. Be on my way now.

BESW

16:28

Beware the Bat is pretty good, but Alfred just asked Batman "How will you get inside the manor?" during a lockdown. Seriously, Alfred? You're asking Batman how he's going to get into his own house?

a) He can. b) He's not going to tell you how.

Zachiel

mmmmh wouldn't that be "who will get you inside the manor?"?

BESW

Thanks, edit made.

Zachiel

Oh, it's how, not who, also?

BESW

My typos are more commonly "wrong word" than anything else.

Zachiel

Batman: "I'm Batman"

BESW

16:31

My fingers are great at typing words.... just not always the right ones.

So... conflicted... on the one hand, it turns out Batman didn't install a backdoor in his security lockdown of the manor, so he has to use a method anyone else could figure out too.

On the other hand, a motor-biking-riding ninja just used the Wilhelm Scream as he was pushed off a bridge.

Bonus points: upon using an exploding Bat-glider to enter the manor from the roof in a maneuver less than 30% likely to not kill him, Batman decides he needs a better security system.

Zachiel

17:30

@InbarRose the comment would serve to have you consider changing your question, if you agree with me on the "I don't care if Wikipedia uses the word acrobatics, it's not the same thing as D&D's acrobatics keyword"

Alex P

19:15

@BESW I have a particular problem with words that are just like another word I commonly use. Like I'll write "internet," "integer," "interface," "integral" enough that it's really hard to force my fingers to type "intra-" anything.

Alex P

21:30

So, we played Burning Wheel. My character got Hermetic symbols drawn on her to facilitate a magical ritual. Then that ritual went horribly wrong. So now I have burned-in Hermetic "tattoos" of sorts. Also I'm pretty sure I drank mercury.

Zachiel

22:34

@AlexP XD

Alex P

Was good times. I tried to save everybody but kinda failed.

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