TRPG General Chat

BESW

16:07

Mmm. Cornflakes.

Joshua Aslan Smith

16:37

Anyone know what pages of SR5 core book are actually useful for character creation vs. world background and fluff? Im like 50 pages in and still nothing.

Problematic

The mechanics should start around there.

BESW

No, you fool! You'll give him hope!

Problematic

.... I mean, there are no mechanics in that book. Sorry, try again next time.

Alex P

@Zachiel Was thinking about your earlier comment about AP vs. campaign journals. I definitely value AP more. When I read purely in-character stuff sometimes I kinda find myself wondering, like, how it came about in play. Because I could see "good story" come out of a pretty miserable session, you know?

BESW

@AlexP I've found that it's very useful to have both for the Enchanted Forest game.

But yes, given a choice of only one, AP every time.

Alex P

16:51

@BESW I don't think I've ever played a character that would actually keep a journal in-character.

BESW

Oh, that's not what I mean.

Alex P

My current BW character has now officially written two lines of text in her entire life. Clumsily. Five if you count dictating.

BESW

Just a narrative of the game's events without the meta, not necessarily from any given viewpoint.

Omniscient third-person is typical.

Alex P

@BESW I can see how they're fun just like any other kind of fiction. I don't especially read written fiction these days. Also, like I said, I get that weirdness about "This is the artifact but what was the game??" when I read other people's.

BESW

Aye.

Ours are basically cut-and-pasting the "narrate what happens" part of our PbC sessions.

And I make sure they always have a link to the actual session.

Joshua Aslan Smith

16:56

@Problematic NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I like fluff, but I hate fluff info dumps, i think the Darksun source book for 4e had the same problem

Alex P

I like Dark Sun a lot. Because I never read most of the source books but the original art for it was wicked-cool.

So about all I know is "Magical wasteland Sorcerer Kings everybody is sooooo metal (and more than a little S&M-y, because Brom art)!"

Well, I probably know more than that but I never bother to remember the rest.

Joshua Aslan Smith

yes dark sun is basically Dune with d&d flavor

which drew me to it

BESW

[yawn] I'm not gonna be able to stay up for the next part of this computer thing. I'll let it sit until morning.

Goodnight.

Joshua Aslan Smith

Basically I uphold everything to the cyberpunk 2020 rulebook which while is messy in how the rules get laid out, manages to peicemeal fluff throughout the book

Alex P

@BESW See ya.

The Oracle

17:38

1

Q: Would it make sense to have tags deadlands-classic and deadlands-reloaded?

Deadlands is a scenario / world / plot point that is available for several different game systems, including Savage Worlds, d20, and GURPS. Recently, there was a question about how the "history" of the world evolved from Deadlands "classic" (the original game, with a narrative up to 1878) and D...

Joshua Aslan Smith

@Problematic do you know of any guides/tools/forums I should look at for sr5 char creation. Just trying to familiarize myself if this gets off the ground.

Problematic

@JoshuaAslanSmith Not yet. I just have the SR5 PDF and that's about it.

I'll see what I can dig up.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@problematic gotcha

@problematic yeah Im looking its just a game line Im not familiarized with.

1

Q: What character creation tools & guides are available for Shadowrun 5e?

I'm a totally new player to Shadowrun 5e. My experiences are largely with D&D 4e, Savage Worlds, and Cyberpunk 2020. I'm just seeing if their are any unofficial (but very helpful) guides or tools to creating and managing Shadowrun 5e characters. I've been able to find a bunch for 4e, but not for ...

character-creation tools shadowrun-sr5

LitheOhm

18:12

Plot-development! rpg.stackexchange.com/q/27362/4089

wax eagle

oh, you want to know how to write a batman gambit? you want @Magician

May 23 at 6:16, by Magician

@BESW as someone who's had an npc successfully pull an honest Batman Gambit on the party, I can challenge that statement :)

honestly, in most campaigns, you just hire them.

LitheOhm

hm

I desire something more

I want my players to feel betrayed, not cheated

wax eagle

@LitheOhm ah, then you need a relationship. maybe an extended working relationship or get them personally attached somehow.

but they've also got to have strong hints that the dude is bad news IMO

LitheOhm

I like this personal attachment thing. Last jerk NPC I ran had my wife (only player at the time) need to take a smoke break after the encounter. I'm a sucker for char-dev

@waxeagle yeah, or at least catch more and more hints later on

wax eagle

@LitheOhm I'm not a big fan of the all out blindside, too many stories around here of that kind of thing ruining relationships

LitheOhm

18:22

I am digging this trope @waxeagle

fair enough, I'll take that into consideration

lol Xanatos Speed Chess

very nice. I've gotta hit that site more often

wax eagle

uh oh, you've succumbed. You'll never escape

LitheOhm

haha

:)

Already I see Plenty of Capital Letters almost everywhere. I daresay that's from how the trope site uses them?

wax eagle

@LitheOhm I dunno, I don't actually hit that site very often, partly because I know it's a black hole from whence I won't return

riding herd on C.SE already takes up way to much of my time at work

LitheOhm

Heh. Most I know of that site I learn from this one.

How is the C.SE doing? Read that there was some sort of subjective answer issue?

or something of the like

wax eagle

same here actually. links to that site in the mod room are almost required to carry a "warning tv tropes" message

LitheOhm

18:29

lol

wax eagle

@LitheOhm pretty well, we're having our first election, in fat the primary starts in half an hour

LitheOhm

kickass!

wax eagle

yep. we'll be fully in graduated status as soon as we have actual elected mods.

LitheOhm

I've tried other SEs - I just can't hold my own in most of the others.

:) sweet

do you have tags for denomination?

wax eagle

same here actually. I really need to get the hang of SO...I've got decent rep in a few places, C.SE, Gardening, Sports.

@LitheOhm yes, though not all 40k of them

LitheOhm

18:32

Yeah. It's really nice that rep transfers at a certain point. I may know only elementary philosophy but because of my time over here, I can join their chat

Can imagine.

wax eagle

@LitheOhm well chat is any 20 rep account anywhere so you'd be ok regardless. But yeah getting 101 rep anywhere you go once you get to 200 on one site is really nice

LitheOhm

yep

ah, didn't realize that

Do you hit Area 51 a lot?

wax eagle

@LitheOhm intermittently

LitheOhm

yeah. A lot of the projects are 'hurry up and wait.' Either that or spam your friends with the link over and over. The one time I prefer hurrying to wait

Metool

Greetings.

LitheOhm

18:40

@Metool yo

Sorry we don't have a very big Legend following, on here. How it seems to me at least

wax eagle

@LitheOhm yeah, unless you've already got a ready made audience for something that you have access to it's hard to get a proposal going. I've tried a few times and failed.

LitheOhm

yeah

wax eagle

things that have wide interest, but I don't have access to the expert bases

speaking of which, commit to beer: area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/48905/beer

LitheOhm

Haha... I'm a hard liquor person myself. However, I do know of someone who might

wax eagle

@LitheOhm area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/41543/whisky in that case :)

LitheOhm

18:46

lol. There's an SE.. Exclusively.. For whisky. Or at least the makings of one. Why not hard liquor - that's way narrow

ever played A Bard's Tale for PS2?

wax eagle

area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/49291/alcoholic-beverages is also in the works

I have a feeling the 3 I just linked might get combined

LitheOhm

probably into the latter

wax eagle

@LitheOhm yep

LitheOhm

►

hehe

ack timing

how long have you been gaming @waxeagle

wax eagle

@LitheOhm about two and a half years

Alex P

18:56

I would like to complain about historical/realistic roleplaying for a second! Who wants to hear my rant?

wax eagle

almost entirely 4e

@AlexP be my guest, I'm a sympathetic ear if you want to rant

LitheOhm

nice. I have very little 4e xp

Alex P

Yay! Mini-rant mode time!

LitheOhm

@AlexP fire away

I got a 4e monster manual for xmas. I don't play it, though - hence my question about converting back to 3.5

don't play it yet. I did find a quickstarter.

Alex P

So, part of the joy of historical-ish gaming is kind of the small stuff. Which includes how conflicts are resolved differently. Less fight-to-the-death or find-the-treasure, for instance.

So "realism" isn't bad per se.

But sometimes I look at scenarios for this style of play and they seem so stupid. Like, there was a whole fan booklet of Harn adventures.

wax eagle

19:03

@LitheOhm pro-tip, buy the monster vaults, the rules compendium and a DDI sub. Don't buy anything else.

3

Alex P

And they were all like, "You think there's a witch but it turns out the town is just drinking bad water" (in the most boring no-mystery-to-solve way possible).

wax eagle

and really, only buy the monster vaults for the tokens

Alex P

Or "You meet a crazy guy in the street, ranting some prophecy. Turns out there is absolutely nothing to it and he is just crazy. Also roll for communicable diseases."

And all of the adventures are like that. There is one magic item in the whole 100-page book, and one actual adventure involving sorcerers (this is for a setting with rare but present magic).

wax eagle

@AlexP that's a level of abstraction that would bore me to tears. It's one thing for those kinds of details to be in a crpg, but they aren't generally necessary to an RPG

shatterspike1

So a whole lot of dead-ends and nothing to do

Alex P

19:06

The one I remember most clearly is there's, like, a roadside shrine with a sword poking out. It's a rusty and beat up sword. And then four paragraphs describing how the nearby villagers will react depending on how flagrant you are about having stolen the sword when you visit them. How many days in the stocks? How big of a fine? Do they run you out of town or not?

@shatterspike1 Yes! 100+ pages of one-page adventure seeds where maybe three of them actually involve achieving anything.

shatterspike1

I get that it's trying to be simulationist, but if there's nothing to do, why are we even here?

Alex P

Or I remember a sample adventure for TRoS which was basically "You are traveling in the woods. Maybe you fight some wolves. The end." Which also struck me as weird because how often do wolves attack an entire group of people, srsly??

wax eagle

@shatterspike1 so much this

Alex P

@shatterspike1 EXACTLY.

You don't need 100 pages of "murderhoboes just get screwed continuously in this game." you need 100 pages of adventures written for non-murderhoboes.

wax eagle

I mean real live medieval simulation is all about not catching the plague, shoveling poo and stuff..that's not exactly what adventures are made of...

shatterspike1

19:09

There's a famine. Figure out a way to feed the village.

At least that has an objective.

wax eagle

@shatterspike1 see, that's a good open to either a game of bureaucracy, or a quest to go find food at the last stocked grainery on the island.

Alex P

My wife's a big medieval-history fan. After I met her I went back to those adventures and noticed they had basically zero actual interesting elements of the dark-ages stuff they were trying to channel.

And it just shocked me that that was, like, all the community wanted to produce. "We hate murderhoboes." :/

@shatterspike1 I saw a good AP that was very simulatnionist in outlook once. RQ used for real-world Celts, I think. Someone's not-super-familiar-with-RP mother-in-law getting really into the daily life and social conflicts of a person from a period she found enjoyable.

Okay, rant done.

shatterspike1

See, that sounds alright

Alex P

@shatterspike1 Exactly.

It's okay to hate rootless vagabonds. But don't keep writing "adventures" for them, then.

Ditto I feel like a game that doesn't want people to just make standard D&D-ish adventurers should give you some support in character creation. My relationships ought to matter? Help me write the right kind (whether mechanically or not).

LitheOhm

19:30

@waxeagle got it

wax eagle

if you really want some books the heroes of adjective noun series are pretty good, but honestly with a DDI sub just about everything else is a waste of money

LitheOhm

I got the monster manual with Lolth in it, maybe 2

3.5 is going out of style in the stores. SRD is still up and running though

Am working on migrating to White Wolf.

Alex P

@LitheOhm What do you actually want out of your games? Like, structurally? There are so many great options these days!

LitheOhm

@AlexP That's one of the things about published adventures/stuff. What I see as pertinent to a DM will doubtlessly be different than what someone else does. Others might see my value as a waste of space, and vice-versa

@AlexP Options, mostly. At least at present. I haven't played many build-point systems. Honestly the biggest hurdle right now is attainability. When I had a great job, funding a gaming habit was nothing. On a college budget it's a different story. I've raided DriveThruRPG at least twice in the past few months

I'd love to have a GURPS library. That's gotta wait for now

@AlexP how about you?

Alex P

@LitheOhm For maximum enjoyment, I need a game that forces a focus on my character's motivation in some way. But also I like traditional-ish (though not really level-based) character advancement, because I like the feeling of earning stuff.

LitheOhm

19:43

character's personal agenda, or something else?

also - the build point system I played the longest, we worked our asses off for what few points we got lol

sadly it's not open game though

Alex P

I like games where you don't really "optimize" per se. Like straight-up buy-things-with-points tends to create conflicts between interesting characters and effective ones, to me.

LitheOhm

I agree that optimization can detract from maximum enjoyment.

Alex P

Compare to, say, lifepaths, or "choose three stats to put 5, 4, and 3 in it respectively" or whatever. More structure.

@LitheOhm Yeah, personal agenda mostly. I mean, it also depends on the game. Burning Wheel (what we're currently playing) is very heavy on personal agenda. I've played other games that emphasized, say, beliefs more so than goals.

LitheOhm

hm. Yeah, char creation in Vampire: The Masquerade involves the "1, 2, 3, and 4" choices. Coming from 3.5 mostly, I looked at that and said "wha..?"

@AlexP Nice! Another point for Burning Wheel. I dig personal agenda. As a DM I prefer to have my own, but it's nice once the "story" resolves and the players can paint the world how they want to

Sandbox games aren't much fun for me as DM but I enjoy them as a player. Probably stems back to that agenda thing

I like to view RPGs as a lot more akin to chess than anything else.

Got my BBEG, who may or may not be the king, then there's all this other stuff to maneuver, and give the players ample leeway. See if they'll be creative in looking for checkmate, otherwise build up a dramatic checkmate (in their favor) on my own.

Way more fun than being a passive DM

It's a collaborative story, not a computer game

Alex P

I don't like traditional sandbox but I like games where there isn't a super-definite main plot that's all set up.

LitheOhm

19:53

@AlexP Definitely agreed. It's best not to make events that go one way, instead making challenges that can go in at least a couple different directions

I really like the Spyro the Dragon games, which started on PSX. Something I really dislike about them is their invisible walls. Strictly linear DMing can be likened to those walls.

"You're a dragon! You can fly! Really really high - nope, not that way. Dragon!"

Hm, I'm chatty today. Sorry for rambling.

wax eagle

@LitheOhm its "chat" there is no problem with this

Alex P

@waxeagle Amen!

It's kinda cool to have a game with no set antagonist, where you have clearly motivated PCs and then their biggest opposition emerges naturally from their actions.

LitheOhm

cool

@AlexP hm

The few times I tried that one, my players didn't respond well

will have to try it again

The NPC in the party can spoil a lot, fun-wise. Especially if you're using them as a feed for the main quest

Alex P

The Riddle of Steel thing with the wolves annoyed me a lot. It's like, "Fight for your beliefs!" "Or fight some wolves for the opportunity to maybe fight for your beliefs at a later date." In a system where you were like 10x more likely to die any time you were not fighting for your beliefs, to boot!

LitheOhm

there was a question on here about that

Alex P

20:03

@LitheOhm Wait, what?

LitheOhm

way to give quests - grant the party an NPC with 'contacts' = precarious

@AlexP damn

what 'beliefs' are you referring to? Right/wrong, good/evil, law/chaos?

Alex P

@LitheOhm In TRoS it was "Spiritual Attributes," which can be kinda anything and you pick 'em. Generally a lot of them were "Passions," IIRC, which is basically "I want to help/hurt person X" msotly.

You could also have generic moral beliefs like justice or your faith in a god or something.

LitheOhm

k

Alex P

And they were like a big static bonus to actions when you were following your goals.

Which means you are amurder-machine when doing that and rather fragile (realistic-ish combat system) when you're not.

LitheOhm

Ah, k. Encountered a system that has something similar

Alex P

20:09

Burning Wheel does it opposite-style: achieving your goals and such gives you points you can spend on any roll.

LitheOhm

Minimus does that as well.

points spent = how much of a bonus?

Alex P

@LitheOhm In TRoS, you have "spiritual attributes" for your motivations rated like 0-5, which are raised as you do stuff, and then they are a bonus to everything you do related to it. But you have to spend those points down to advance your other stats.

@LitheOhm In BW, there are several different fate-point-ish currencies that do slightly different things, but basically it's "spend some points to improve a roll"

There are several because many small acts != one big act.

LitheOhm

k

Alex P

So the idea is that I get a consistent trickle of useful resources from getting into trouble, pursuing my goals, &c., but COMPLETING your goals or, even better, doing big notable things that are greater than yourself and involve some sacrifice and suffering on your part, are worth more in a qualitative sense.

LitheOhm

k

Alex P

20:14

like 200 ways to do the same thing, and the results are surprisingly different

It's like game mechanics actually matter. ;)

LitheOhm

lol

I've taken a few peeks over at Burning Wheel. Will definitely be getting into that one, when feasible.

I'm half working on designing a build-point based system. A friend recommended I test out White Wolf, more specifically old World of Darkness, first.

but Burning Wheel definitely sounds fun

Alex P

@LitheOhm One thing to watch out for in OWoD: IIRC, there are weird gaps between how much things cost at chargen and then how much they cost later.

Which creates a weird thing sometimes where, like, going 5-1-1 in stats is better than 3-2-2, because it's cheaper to raise the former to 5-3-3 or whatever a good spread is.

LitheOhm

k. As in cheaper at chargen?

Alex P

Like something costs 1-2-3-4-5 build points at chargen and 1-3-6-10-15 XP when leveling.

Yeah, different scales and relative pricing.

LitheOhm

k

Alex P

20:19

That annoys some players heavily because they feel like they're forced to go for the more optimal approach (otherwise you feel like you're wasting XP, basically)

LitheOhm

So far I like that V:tM has more potential actions per round than 3.5

@AlexP yeah

The move/swift (or immediate)/standard type of combat is something I want to branch out from. Actions should be more broad/abstracted in my opinion. For instance - instead of moving what about casting another spell? Or whatever

How does BW handle rounds/actions?

Alex P

@LitheOhm You can do one-roll everything or you can use finer-grained systems for combat or argument. Those fine-grained systems are based on "scripting" three turns of actions, which adds an element of guesswork to it.

In the melee subsystem, positioning is abstract based on "advantage" for your weapon, and you're trying to time attacks, defenses, counterattacks, &c.

In the long-range subsystem, your team is trying to outmaneuver their team and whichever one wins gets to perform actions like shooting or establishing a good position.

The subsystems get kinda complicated. We don't always use them.

Probably the biggest difference from something like D&D is that combat isn't especially attrition-based. One good hit can end it. But in a way, it's not as lethal. Since the mechanics for being disabled or forced to give up or run away are much more present.

Alex P

20:46

So, my son starts crying from the kitchen. Me: "Did he hurt himself?" My wife: "No, he's emotionally overwhelmed from the fact that I won't let him play inside the fridge."

wax eagle

@AlexP you must have a 4 yr old :)

actually no that sounds a touch younger, 2 or 3 :)

Alex P

@waxeagle 1.5

We just kinda let him roam around.

Some days he gets some awful fixation like "I'm going to mess up all the cat food." Some days it's fine.

(At least he doesn't try to eat cat food anymore. I wouldn't care except that it's actively bad for you.)

wax eagle

@AlexP yeah we're the same with our 15 mo old. no sense containing him at this point. And the temper tantrums are starting to get to the hilarious stage

our cats are outside only, but when we go outside he makes a beeline for their food bowl

Zachiel

21:02

as in it's easier to raise low scores

oh ok, I didn't read all the chat.

so that was an obsolete reply to something way up in the chat

Alex P

@Zachiel Did I get that correctly?

Zachiel

@LitheOhm it was a reply to this.

You already covered it

@AlexP wasting XP... that's my issue with D&D 3.5

Alex P

@Zachiel Like taking a bum level? Or what?

Zachiel

Like having to build wacky characters to have divine power on a wizard instead of taking 7 levels of cleric.

Alex P

Oh, yeah. I'm not a fan of that whole "dig through five class books to figure out how to make a fighter who can fight" style.

Zachiel

21:15

is there such a thing?

Alex P

@Zachiel With enough ToB stuff? Maybe. I gave up on D&D before that book came out.

Metool

I wonder if I can block the feed popup...

Alex P

@Metool I was thinking that, too, like three weeks ago. >.>

Metool

Short answer?

Alex P

@Metool I don't think there is one, but we have a meta topic right now about setting up the feeds (currently at the propose-an-approach stage).

Zachiel

21:21

@AlexP I don't have access to ToB classes in none of the games I play. Plus several other restriction that make everyone trying to help me go mad (the usual sentence is "tell them their limitation s***s and change game"). I've sworn never to ask again in some places including this one.

Alex P

I do find RPG Bloggers kinda spammy, tbh. A lot of it seems to be product promo for stuff I don't care about.

Zachiel

Metool might remember something about the matter. Besw and Brian surely do, KRyan might as well.

Alex P

21:35

@Zachiel I think I remember a previous conversation about that. It made me sad.

Zachiel

@AlexP Pretty much every gaming group using play by chat D&D in Italy has the administration thinking that "you don't need all those classes to roleplay what you want to roleplay" - which might be true if you don't care about character efficiency. You want to play an archivist? Fine, play a wizard who keeps a library. "You want to be an archivist for mechanical reasons? You roll-player!"

Then, some offer more variety

but it ranges from "no ACF" to "no personalized items" (because yeah, no one wants to play with carried stones of continuous true strike)

some only use core

and nobody that I know allows ToB (one site I'm in allows feats from it)

The manual limitation is also an help to anybody willing to DM in those games. The more things get implemented, the more each DM has to know - classes using different mechanics are pretty bad for this

Alex P

21:53

@Zachiel The problem is that just-core rather sucks, and all-the-books sucks, and nobody can really agreee on what the perfect kitbashed fixed-up version is. So fixed-up D&D3 is like a magical unicorn.

2

Alex P

22:10

Here's something I like a lot about our BW one-on-one: I am actively excited for my character to be captured. And lose all my stuff. And, like, waste a year being someone's servant or whatever.

BESW

22:30

@Zachiel Wait, what do I remember?

@AlexP Balanced D&D 3.5

3

trogdor

as in, it doesn't exist

BESW

@trogdor Fluffle Puff's horn is a rolled-up sheet of pink paper, so... yes.

trogdor

even if it wasn't

BESW

23:04

M'rr. Windows isn't liking my fonts.

Alex P

@BESW Yes, exactly.

@BESW On the subject of that monsters-as-horror-PCs question: I don't think it actually has setting assumptions, as much as the examples all have an implicit setting (because the monstrous thing is the major element of the setting).

I'd still call it system-agnostic, though really horror-gaming is the tag that matters.

BESW

Mmm. Disagree.

Alex P

What's the setting assumption, then?

BESW

If he wants it to be system-agnostic, then he wants monsters that would be "interesting" dropped into any setting.

Alex P

@BESW You're conflating system and setting!

BESW

23:16

Systems do that.

Alex P

Well, yes.

But I think most of the system-agnostic questions on the site are still making some assumptions about things.

BESW

Mm. I may not have expressed myself well.

Alex P

I mean,

17

Q: Fantasy and magic in a primarily realistic setting

I'm running a game that's best described as "medieval fantasy," in the sense that we're actually trying to have the lives of people in the setting strongly resemble the historical Middle Ages. There aren't any dungeons in the classical sense; flying wizards shooting fireballs haven't replaced arm...

gm-techniques system-agnostic magic narrative-techniques

BESW

I'm pretty bugged out.

Alex P

No worries. This isn't a pressing discussion.

BESW

23:18

If any of these "how to fix your problem" threads matched anything I'm seeing on my screen....

Alex P

...?

BESW

I'm not familiar with Windows 7, and I'm just not finding the options in the places that these forums say I will.

[face/palm] I'm just going to have to hope my laptop survives with a new battery and nothing else, I guess, until I hit the end of this job.

BESW

23:41

That's it, from now on I'm doing my designs by hand on a drafting table and photographing them with a copy camera.

[distracts himself with FiM s4 spoilers from Comic Con]

LitheOhm

@AlexP nice

how about spending xp to make stuff? Never made sense to me

BESW

@LitheOhm I can see where it makes sense, I just think it's a bad idea.

LitheOhm

Would you explain it to me?

BESW

In D&D, power is determined by level and effective wealth. Effective wealth is capped by level.

So trading speed-of-leveling for --basically-- the ability to break through the wealth-by-level cap makes a certain amount of sense.

In a "we don't want you to actually have fun" kind of way.

"I'm not going to get to level 12 as quickly, but I'm going to get twice the effective wealth out of my level-11-capped gold."

It's basically levelling up through items instead of features.

LitheOhm

23:59

ah

makes sense. Very much in that "we don't want you to actually have fun" kind of way

BESW

I won't defend it as a good idea, but it makes sense in a twisted way, if you look at magic items as another form of feature advancement.

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