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Bob
12:07 AM
!!info
 
@Bob I awoke on Wed, 17 Jan 2018 20:15:16 GMT (that's about 1 day ago), got invoked 5 times
 
12:56 AM
Anyone else have Windows 10 touchpad issues recently? Mine just lost all sensitivity for a few days, went back to normal for about a day, and now is back to low sensitivity.
 
Bob
> This is the first release of v1.0.0 and probably the last release of v1.0.0.
> Release v1.0.1
 
1:28 AM
lol
Threadripper in Micro-ATX: anandtech.com/show/12325/…
 
1:48 AM
@bwDraco that's really cool
 
Three PCIe slots, all x16, and three M.2 slots.
Memory capability suffers a bit, with four slots available.
(though we note that performance suffers in 2DPC configurations because of lower maximum memory speed)
> ASRock categorically stated that with a socket this big, mini-ITX is impossible without some major compromises such as two DRAM slots.
 
Bob
I wonder if you could even fit a standard HSF in there
 
Bob
GOD DAMMIT SYMANTEC GO DIE IN THE DEEPEST PITS OF HELL
3
@allquixotic does it fix your packet loss? :P
 
erm. Symantec is the deepest pit of hell
 
1:54 AM
@bwDraco the three x16 slot thing on Micro ATX is a big reason I've long been tempted to go to an enthusiast platform (mainly Intel, though now AMD is in the running). the most x16 slots I've seen in a standard board like a Z370M is two (with one or two extra x1 slots, ugh)
 
Bob
@JourneymanGeek well, if it'd just go ahead and die in there I'd be happy
 
@allquixotic ATX and EATX Threadripper boards are typically configured with two x16 and two x8 (physically x16) slots.
 
I don't want the extra x8 or x16 slots for SLI; I want them for things like addon I/O cards (RAID...) and newer USB or Tbolt controllers
 
Bob
@allquixotic it's trivial to get a riser (or mod the slot) so a x1 will fit a x16 card. The problem isn't the slots, it's the lanes
 
I personally wish I had the PC building experience the other regulars had :(
 
Bob
1:56 AM
@bwDraco ...x8 slots? surely you mean x8 lanes on a x16 slot?
I think the only common physical slots are x1, x4 and x16
 
@Bob Actually, yes.
 
@Bob true that, but I'm not a fan of risers... and even with my current hardware I can't use a board without at least one x16 (slot width) and one x8 or wider slot
and I might want some more x4 or x8 cards in the future for I/O
 
(same can be said for dedicated servers, ZFS, and stuff)
 
@Bob no no, the point of hell is punishment and Symantec is the punishment for using Symantec.
2
 
I feel like I've wasted so much of my life.
 
Bob
1:57 AM
@JourneymanGeek does that mean @bwDraco is a masochist? being a willing norton user and all...
 
@Bob lol
What Symantec product?
 
Bob
(also that wasted life message couldn't have come at a better time :D)
@bwDraco SEP
 
@bwDraco how old are you?
 
Bleh. Enterprise solutions are clunkier than most.
 
@Bob I'll refrain from comment. I do admit to barooing whenever I see nice things said about Syantec products....
 
1:58 AM
25.
 
I've still not forgiven them for altaris SVS
 
lol, you're 7 years younger than me... you have 7 years less experience and more credentials
 
Bob
@bwDraco ha, my current one (~Jan 2017) is my first self-built box...
 
@bwDraco at that age, I've erm.... dropped out of uni twice? ;p
 
Because just earlier today, Norton managed to block a malicious redirect.
 
1:58 AM
I wasn't even working a full-time salaried job until I was 26, just internships prior to that
 
Wow.
I'm currently a part-time sports photographer, on the hunt for some experience (perhaps in the form of an internship) to enter the IT world.
 
Bob
@allquixotic ya, my board is... I think it's two x16 (in x8 config if both used), three x1 and one x16 (in x4 config, or x2 config if the 3rd x1 is used)
 
what I'm trying to say is, you're super young, don't fret about not having experience... that's what being young means
signed, the grizzled (and slightly bitter) veteran
or one of several in here :D
 
lol
 
2:00 AM
I figured out why I couldn't get on gitter ._.
 
Bob
@bwDraco That's actually a really scary thought. That Norton is listening to which sites you're visiting. Which, in a HTTPS world, implies either digging into browser memory or HTTPS interception. Which is a HUUUUUUUUUGE !!NO
 
@Bob It wasn't HTTPS.
Also, you can still check DNS queries.
 
@Bob I'll know in 7 days, since I've been routinely experiencing the packet loss 7 days after the last reboot
if it doesn't fix my packet loss then I'd like to know what exact sort of system stability they think they're improving if it isn't, yanno, fixing a device-breaking bug
 
Bob
@bwDraco The last time I used Norton (~2010?) it was just as bad.
 
@allquixotic why not do a nightly reboot at odd times? ;p
 
Bob
2:02 AM
Let's see. Current gripes.
 
that's pretty standard on my overworked ex-work routers
 
Bob
Known bug. Caused by Spectre patches.
 
lol
 
Bob
Which raises the question: hooooooooooooow? What kind of crazy shit is Symantec doing for this to even happen?!
 
all of em
 
Bob
2:05 AM
Second gripe: every time any executable updates, I get a network/firewall prompt that it's changed and I need to allow/deny access again.
Which is especially fun when you're running nightly firefox & chrome.
 
@Bob Technically, AMD only supports liquid cooling on Threadripper.
 
Bob
Which, y'know, update nightly.
 
I still haven't had a chance to work on JS :(
 
Bob
As in, at least once a day. With several executables updates.
You see where I'm going with this?
 
(busy post-processing photos)
 
Bob
2:06 AM
Gripe 3: it's deleted mozregression-gui pretty much every time I've opened it
 
@Bob heh, sounds almost like what winpooch used to do
0_0
 
Bob
an older version, because it didn't have a good enough "reputation"
 
@Bob Consumer Norton solutions don't do this - they're supposed to be smart and automatically create firewall rules.
 
Bob
because noooooooo you can't use tools that don't have a million other users
fuck off symantec
3
 
Yeah. I've had false positives due to reputation.
It doesn't happen often, though.
 
Bob
2:07 AM
the current version, because its heuristics think it's a trojan
symtantec. you are more of a trojan than any mozilla tool will ever be
 
@Bob, how did you get your job as a web developer?
 
@Bob to be fair, local TLS interception, analysis, and re-signing of sites with a locally generated CA is reasonably common in modern virus products. They do it in Bitdefender and it's on by default (until I turn it off)
 
Bob
@allquixotic it's also terrible for security
 
just because it's common doesn't make it good, but at least it's not just Symantec doing it
 
Bob
browsers, by and large, get their TLS imlpementations right. and do certificate validation properly.
 
2:08 AM
the worst part is that their re-signed cert doesn't check OCSP or CRLs AFAIK
 
Bob
antivirus vendors? I've lost count of the number of beginner mistakes they've made
shipping a globally-shared private key to every install
broken-ass TLS implementations (which forced the TLS 1.3 spec to invent a new versioning scheme)
not checking revocation
not checking the certificate chain at all
 
oh and I think Bitdefender was allowing one of my sites as apparently a valid https domain (it was resigning it with a valid cert) despite the site having an objectively invalid (per Mozilla/Microsoft/Apple/Google) StartSSL cert with SHAAAAAAAA weakness (or maybe it was after they killed StartSSL)
 
@Bob tbh, outside badly laid out regulatory reasons, not quite sure a sensible modern system actually benefits from all that.
 
Bob
not being updated in millenia (so, bye bye client-side BEAST mitigations etc)
not being updated in millenia (I'm sure lots still don't support SCSV, and/or still support SSL 3.0, and probably still support the even more broken SSL 2.0)
@JourneymanGeek benefits from what?
 
well, the sort of paranoidish stuff a lot of AV has...
 
2:11 AM
> Supports DFS channels 20 MHz, 40 MHz, and 80 MHz.
 
Bob
@allquixotic yea, that's part of never being updated
 
I'm honestly not sure what that's supposed to do (in my latest R9000 update)
wonder if any devices support it :P
 
Bob
antivirus HTTPS interception is an utter joke and do more damage to your security and privacy than lack of antivirus will in the vast, vast majority of cases
 
do I need my AV to check my mail? (eh, my provider does that) Do I need it sniffing my traffic? hell no.
DLP? I end up running a side copy of some browser sans their shitty, often broken plugin, since I'm IT....
 
Bob
don't run suspicious crap. keep your OS and browser up to date.
 
2:13 AM
@JourneymanGeek - I allowed AVG to scan my emails within Outlook.
 
Bob
do that and you're probably safer than any antivirus can ever make you
 
@Bob On the other hand, isn't it fairly sane if, rather than your AV vendor, your browser would do some kind of validation (on the page? on the domain? on the content?) for maliciousness after successfully establishing the tunnel and transferring the data but before rendering? (kinda like what an adblocker does, but designed to prevent attacks)
 
AVG ended up adding signatures to every email, and it did so poorly, and corrupted thousands of emails
I would NEVER allow an AV to scan my emails
 
Bob
@JourneymanGeek email is an interesting exception, since it's push (you can get mail from all kinds of untrusted sources) and many local clients have more bugs and less testing/updates than browsers
@allquixotic they do...
well, chrome & firefox do
 
@Ramhound Norton scans all my emails and has caught viruses in the past.
It doesn't inject signatures or anything.
 
2:14 AM
@Bob but a suspecious attachment can be caught at the email provider and between download and execution...
 
AVG added "scanned by AVG ..." to every email
it corrupted every email that had an attachtment
 
I lost pictures of my animal that later passed away.
 
My backup stragegy back then was poor
If i am going to scan an email. Do it on the server
 
Bob
2:15 AM
@allquixotic safebrowsing.google.com Chrome and Firefox both check domains against this
which I'm pretty sure is more complete than Norton/Symantec will ever be
 
that's what I said
 
But I don't ever open attachments from anyone except myself :$
 
(also, I think we based web clients make a lot of sense except for archival purposes)
 
Sep 29 '16 at 0:09, by bwDraco
Norton initially did not detect this, but several days after submitting the malware sample to Symantec, a full system scan identified and quarantined the rogue JS file from within the ZIP file.
 
Why are you opening up random .zip files?
Would be my question. Anyways is Firefox ESR based on Firefox 52 or 56?
Cause their chart is clear as dirt.
 
2:17 AM
Start here:
 
Sep 14 '16 at 20:21, by bwDraco
Hey folks, got a malware sample on my machine. It's in a ZIP attachment.
Sep 14 '16 at 20:39, by bwDraco
Spam email, purporting to be a girl wanting a date. Filename suggests an image but the ZIP file actually contains JS code.
 
Bob
@bwDraco Those are a dime a dozen
 
....
 
Bob
they're only interesting when the email is particularly amusingly worded
then you can screenshot it and post it up here for a laugh
 
2:18 AM
Sep 14 '16 at 20:55, by bwDraco
That's pretty scary. It's a ransomware downloader.
I don't think I have it anymore...
 
I am not sure if UPS/FedEx/Internet Girl sending you an email is a huge deal, they are all scams, oh and the African prince is a scam too btw
 
(the attachment itself has been secured, but I don't know if I still have the message proper)
 
Bob
pretty sure "js in a zip like a billion other spam emails" doesn't count as particularly interesting
 
I attempted to order a Kinect xbox s adapter from a fake store.
...Waiting to feel that pain on that one
 
Bob
but maybe that's just because I have an old email address that gets 12 of them a day
 
2:20 AM
@Bob - Or you learned in your many years alive that all emails except from people you know is a scam
:-)
 
Bob
not even kidding, it's been accumulating them for about a decade now
at this point I don't use that address anymore... it's just sitting there to see how long it takes to fill the gmail storage :P
@Ramhound unfortunately, online shopping means I do get a fair few from people I don't know
 
@Bob - So what did Symantec do to you?
 
Bob
but usually it's pretty easy to tell
@Ramhound murdered my firstborn
 
lol
 
Bob
well, it probably will try to sometime
 
2:21 AM
@Bob - Thee people are sending you emails with attachments or just emails?
 
Bob
@Ramhound sometimes PDF invoices come through
that said, my default PDF viewer is now within a browser anyway, sooo
 
^^ good
 
Bob
it's not really the infection vector it was (half?) a decade ago
 
If you download a .PDF and open it, in an actually PDF program, it can get pretty bad. The browser pdf functionality amounts too "display page content, anything that isn't a text or image, .."
Respects the page orientation but yeah
Microsoft/Mozilla/Google isn't spending their time making PDF viewing better in 2018. you want that you got a huge sample size of PDF programs
Son of a gun
Firefox updated itself
grrrr
 
Bob
@Ramhound current ESR is 52; next ESR is 60
 
2:24 AM
But what version is it based on?
 
Bob
if your goal is to keep old addons, waterfox is probably the way to go
@Ramhound the same version :P
ESR 52 is Firefox 52
 
Bah
 
Bob
the minor versions are just security patches
 
I have this specific extension, session manager
it's the bomb
 
Bob
I don't think they even do bugfix patches, only security
(though large crash bugs might be an exception?)
@Ramhound eh... I used to use that, and tab mix plus, but somewhere along the line (starting in 10-something, much improved in 40-something?) I switched to the native session restore
is there anything in particular you need from it? multiple sessions?
 
2:27 AM
Well
I lost hundreds of sessions
 
Bob
idk
 
Firefox would just not restore the session
 
Bob
I'm the guy with >2.5k tabs open
 
Yeah... me too
 
Bob
carried over a year
I think the last time I had a large session loss might be 2014?
 
2:28 AM
IE11 would restore different sessions depending on how it felt
 
Bob
even then, I keep daily backups of my firefox profile dir so it's not too bad
 
I even have a question about that problem.
 
I got several saved sessions, just want to go through them, then I might upgrade.
 
Bob
huh, that was 30-something, not 40-something
@Ramhound yea, that's the biggest issue ... having multiple independent sessions
you could transfer them to bookmarks, I suppose
 
2:30 AM
I really wish they would allow a user to choose to allow a legacy extension
 
Bob
load session, right click => bookmark all tabs
 
I could also just go through them :-)
 
Bob
@Ramhound I think the issue is legacy extensions mostly only worked post-e10s because of the CPOW wrapper
but that wrapper caused a lot of issues too
 
I am not sure I need the session which includes a exam i was taking
 
Bob
and would have to be maintained to allow legacy going forward
 
2:32 AM
@Bob - So allow a preference override otherwise it's disabled :$
I mean hell I understand
 
Bob
@Ramhound which then breaks at some point in the next few releases because CPOW broke and no one wants to fix it?
 
Just annoying I am one of "Those users" who is complaing because my workflow is interrupted.
 
Bob
57 itself was a big enough change to break CPOW, I think
@Ramhound Oh, I fully understand the frustrations. I lost DTA in it :(
But I can also see why they want a clean extension API going forward
tbf the cutoff was a bit brutal
 
Well they didn't even bother making what was possible still possible. Session Manager can't be done because of the API.
 
Bob
@Ramhound btw, if you really want to, the unbranded builds also allow extensions: bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1414450
that's the toggle option you wanted :P
that said, I wouldn't be surprised if most extensions were actually (unintentionally) broken by 57 & 58
 
2:35 AM
I just disabled updates for now, barely use Firefox anymore, Edge ever failed to load a session
 
Bob
heh. I can say Firefox hasn't failed to load a session for me since before Edge was a thing :P
@bertieb had issues here recently but I think he was using an addon that got dropped
 
Bob
@Ramhound yea, they should've let the new APIs bake for another half year or so before switching
 
"It also supports SessionManager's session file (.session)." YEAH
I knew if I waited somebody would do it.
Now I get to update :-)
Of course I will keep a backup of my current profile.
 
Knock, Knock?
 
2:46 AM
Chicken Butt
 
Boo Hoo
I say: Boo Hoo
You say: Boo Hoo Who
I say: Stop that crying BI#$%
LOL
How's the love for RHEL over here these days? Too much love or what?
 
RHEL can burn in hell
 
How about CentOS 7?
 
Redhat refuses to address a problem in XSpice
 
Bob
@Ramhound I think Spice is also in my die in a fire list
 
2:54 AM
There is a bug where if you have a session open for 1,000,000 seconds it fails
 
Bob
mostly cause it's weird and doesn't work in Xorg on Windows/WSL
libvnc works fine :P
 
@TroubleMakerChatBroom I've had some pretty positive experiences with RHEL7 in pure server (headless) deployments, like running Bitbucket/Git server, Confluence, and a few other things on it. Like no major problems, and I was able to easily configure it to my needs... That said, I'm kinda eagerly awaiting RHEL8
 
The code has a comment and I quote "infinite session timeout?"
 
Bob
(but RDP will still be my favourite, where available)
 
Sep 21 '17 at 22:40, by bwDraco
I realize that extensions.legacy.enabled = true is not a supported configuration for Firefox 57, and legacy extensions can break without warning in future updates. I seriously need to see an update for Greasemonkey soon.
 
2:55 AM
I am going to at some point fix it myself
Just need to get off my left and right check and do it
 
Bob
I'm a deb/apt guy. rpm/yum has been ... weird
 
Oh and also find some way to duplicate a Windows VM talking to a Redhat Server talking to a mainframe ...
 
Bob
and whatever the replacement for yum is these days
 
dnf
 
yum can die in a fire
Way to hard to work with regards to version control
 
Bob
2:57 AM
@Ramhound it's better than dnf, in any case
dnf takes forever to fetch packages
@bwDraco thanks
 
My repositories are on mounted volumes
I would hope it would be fast :$
If I can ever get the engineer to my work site, I might be able to figure it out, want to win an award at work :)
Yeah Yeah, I know, horrible motivation reason
I am going to have to go back to work soon
 
@allquixotic So for so good for me with CentOS 7 but haven't messed with RHEL 7 but heard it's basically the same. I'm not doing any sophisticated mainframe or Xspice stuff either tho. Still learning Linux but I like it...
 
I am doing that by choice too
* cry me a river please *
My problem is how to replicate this particular bug. Million seconds is well over 10 days
 
@Ramhound is it only when a million seconds have elapsed, or when the difference between the start time and the present date is a million seconds? if the latter, do a clock discontinuity by setting the system clock forward by a bunch of days, stopping just a minute or so before the million second mark
 
You know I am not actually sure
 
3:03 AM
try it... if it's reproducible with the clock discontinuity at exactly a million seconds then you can include that in the bug report and use that to further diagnose
 
Difficult to test due to the environment it is
So I am going to have to recreate it by having a Windows VM xspice into a Redhat server sharing some program ( not sure what yet )
 
you can make sure the clock discontinuity itself isn't a problem by setting it to, like, 500,000 seconds ahead first and make sure it's stable
 
We assume the problem is Xspiceat this point, we also have a connection to the mainframe, so it could also be that particular module is the problem. But if we reconnect Xpsice connection daily it never disconnects so that's unlikely.
I appreciate the suggestion though
The problem is the Windows client is extremely locked down in the real environment, and group policy would break + other stuff, if I actually forced it on the real system
 
Bob
@Ramhound wait, is the buggy piece running on Windows?
 
A XSpice client is running on a Windows 7 VM, and is connected to a XSpice server installed on a RHEL 7.1 VM.
 
3:09 AM
@TroubleMakerChatBroom depends on who you ask. RHEL and centos is pretty loved by sysadmin sorts. Devs seem to prefer ubuntu
for your own use... ehhhhhh
 
Gotcha.... I'm more a sys admin myself
 
centos is nice if you want a fairly boring outdated stable platform, especially if you're also using red hat for systems with support
 
Bob
@Ramhound which side do you think the bug is on?
 
I have looked at the code
 
Bob
if it's using timers I wonder if you can't shim that for testing
 
3:10 AM
@JourneymanGeek I'm using Centos.. I like it!
 
It appears to be in the server module. There is a comment and I kid you know, mention the million seconds, and it has a question mark at the end of the comment.
 
Bob
@JourneymanGeek debian is my boring platform :P
 
something along the lines of (million second timeout?)
 
Bob
@Ramhound make it 10 million!
 
@Bob debian is even more boring stable
 
3:11 AM
24/7/365 system
 
Bob
it's almost like Windows 95 all over again: cnet.com/news/windows-may-crash-after-49-7-days
 
but I think the big attraction of vanilla red hat is support
 
We are already rebooting the samba server daily.
@JourneymanGeek - Redhat support only works if they can remote in, LOL
Airgapped system = DUHHHHH>..
 
@Ramhound true
 
Of course VMWare isn't much better
 
3:14 AM
quite
 
So i disabled updates in my preference file. Which was ignored since Firefox went ahead and updated anyways, lol
Good thing I figured out my session problem.
Perhaps I didn't because this session manager is taking forever to load my session
 
Bob
I saw this in the HNQ and was afraid it was for pets.stackexchange.com for a sec. — Milo P 5 hours ago
 
Cool, never realized pets.stackexchange.com... just joined this beta community!!
 
3:27 AM
"Never run with your husky until they are 1 year old. Trust me I'm at a vetinary school at the moment." - I hope nobody uses this person as their vet.
 
Bob
4:18 AM
hi
 
4:34 AM
lo
 
Bob
5:04 AM
"I know that it is better for security to generate SSL certs on a separate machine, and not on the web server." — there's a bit of an implied "so I set up this epically insecure rube goldberg machine to do it instead"
 
 
5:21 AM
New Samsung SSDs coming: webcache.googleusercontent.com/…
> Warrantied TBW for 860 EVO: 150 TBW for 250 GB model, 300 TBW for 500 GB model, 600 TBW for 1 TB model, 1,200 TBW for 2 TB model and 2,400 TBW for 4 TB model.
Also, of interest to Linux users (previous Samsung SSDs had issues with queued trim):
> improved queued trim enhances Linux compatibility
...and it's not QLC NAND:
> NAND Type
Samsung V-NAND 3bit MLC
(Samsung 64-layer 3D TLC NAND)
Don't know pricing for the 4TB model yet (@allq). I hope it's better this time around.
 
5:38 AM
interesting
 
Fourth-generation Samsung 3D NAND, new controller and LPDDR4 memory for lower power consumption, higher endurance ratings. Looks like a natural evolution.
There's also a 860 PRO coming, which (presumably) will use 64-layer (2-bit) 3D MLC NAND rather than TLC along with the improved controller, for even higher endurance ratings.
 
5:52 AM
For all of the 860 EVO drive models, we're talking about ~0.33 DWPD of endurance here.
Endurance... is pretty much a solved problem with consumer SSDs.
Most users will not be writing 160 GB a day to a 500 GB SSD.
 
Bob
@allquixotic i feel like I'm drowning in snap
@bwDraco what was the 850 again?
 
@Bob 75 TBW for the 120 GB and 250 GB models. 150 TBW for the 500 GB and 1 TB models. 300 TBW for the 2 TB and 4 TB models.
 
Bob
hm
so a nice jump from there
btw, @bwDraco, this is how I learn :P
neck deep in snap and no idea what I'm doing
 
Snap?
 

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