The Upper Room

Peter Turner

00:58

theregister.co.uk/2019/10/01/stack_exchange_controversy

@El'endiaStarman I don't feel much like saying, I'm staying, to hell with solidarity. But I can't imagine not being demodded at some point in the next couple of weeks or months just for being myself.

Caleb

10:10

I wish I'd had time and energy to do this before it got 12k views and was the most voted on post on our meta, but I just gave my resignation some serious copy editing. If anybody sees bits that need work let me know.

Caleb

12:28

@PeterTurner I don't have a hard time imagining you getting the boot, sir ;-) Honestly even without the moderator image to worry about any more I'm still probably working myself towards a suspension if they enforce that CoC on users as well as mods.

By the way if I take it too far talking about the ups and downs of mod life feel free to take me aside.

@Caleb your actions feel openly hostile. If you claim to bear is no hostility then retract your statement refusing to acknowledge our identities. — bruglesco 1 hour ago

@bruglesco In your view of things is there anything I could say that would not be considered "hostile" short of fundamentally changing my beliefs or agreeing to lie about them? — Caleb 1 hour ago

@Caleb You can start by refraining from making light of, and practically ridiculing, things that are important to us. You could even go so far as to edit and rephrase: In light of all the things we went through just to open this site much less make it work, the touch-stone issue is almost comical. Pronouns. No seriously, pronouns. — bruglesco 46 mins ago

@bruglesco And if I did that? I'm really more concerned with where it would end. In my experience when perception is only defined by the beholder there are no lengths great enough to actually please. At the end of the day it isn't anything I say that is offensive; to many, that I even think the way I do is an offense. Besides, can you not grant a little levity and see things from another angle? We wrestled through purgatory and out again to come up with a site scope that didn't constant incite flame wars! Pronouns are serious business but grammatically they play second fiddle. — Caleb 34 mins ago

@Caleb When someone makes light of the positions of people they are dialectically opposed to then it isn't levity, it is ridicule. But fundamentally I think you are right, I doubt I am likely to think of anyone who openly considers me heretical and an abomination as not hostile towards me. — bruglesco 25 mins ago

@bruglesco Not one but two of my co-mods on C.SE held (past tense because I am not a mod, not because they renounced their beliefs) views that I consider to be heretical and defined Biblically as abominations. One follows a group that has anathematized me (that's serious), the other that calls my beliefs "perverse Satanic deceptions". None of this once stopped us from doing our jobs in regard to the site, or even from being friends. I'll miss working with them as mods. True inclusivity involves knowing how you disagree and allowing the other their own identity and expression. — Caleb 7 mins ago

Peter Turner

15:41

Well, it looks like you made up near the end. That's good, most of the time people willing to do some discourse are willing to be level headed on this subject.

I don't think others are aware of their inherent Christophobia (eg. not wanting a link to your post on a featured post) which would be fruitless to try to explain.

I would be apt to bring up the compelled speech argument on MSO when this is public. Is that just a Republican/Jordan Petersen talking point? I think it's a big deal nonetheless

Peter Turner

16:13

Either there's an uptick in community bot activity as of late or people are really not posting much.

@Caleb I forgot to say it earlier, but you are really an inspiration to me, I never quite understood what you were doing but I assumed it was the Lord's work (as well as grunt computer work). so good luck in everything.

fredsbend

19:31

@PeterTurner and @El'endiaStarman I see you're still mods. That's good. I know I've been out a while, but if you need help (i.e. hit up the review queues, etc.) I'd be happy to lend some time.

Peter Turner

@fredsbend Thank you! It might not come as a surprise to anyone, but Caleb and Nathaniel did the lions share of the moderation on the site. So we're going to need some help. Comments on what you're thinking on NAA's would be very handy since I don't understand a ton of protestant doctrine. (i.e. millenial vs amillenial; baptist vs anabaptist)

fredsbend

K. NP. I'll try and hit the reviews once a day for a while.

anongoodnurse

19:52

@PeterTurner - Why is using the gender-neutral they offensive to you as a Christian? I'm a Christian myself, but see no sin in it.

Peter Turner

@anongoodnurse away vile temptress, I'll not be ensnared in your hornets nest.

JK, JK, I dunno

anongoodnurse

@PeterTurner Are you serious?

Oh, please don't scare me like that.

@PeterTurner You left a strong comment under a meta post. I didn't want to comment there. But it was so strong that I thought you had a rational explanation for it.

Maybe you just don't want to go into it, that I can understand.

Just one Christian left wondering.

Ping me if you decide to answer. :) Thanks.

Peter Turner

@anongoodnurse sorry to leave you hanging, had a conversation that needed 100% attention, not 30% like most things are getting recently. You're right I don't very much want to say anything that'll get me canned.

I couldn't call myself a Catholic and class anything but the standard man+women with openness to children sort of relations as anything but the norm.

And calling it sinful because it isn't the norm may not be right

sinful means "to miss the mark", which is obviously the ideal.

I don't think there is anything offensive in using a gender-neutral term (except it) to refer to a person you don't know over the Internet. And I don't mind calling people what they want to be called, but I'll try to remain ignorant of the circumstances around their preferred pronouns to avoid the near occasion of sin.

El'endia Starman

21:30

@fredsbend Definitely going to need help. I'm not used to keeping watch since Caleb and Nathaniel did like 90% of the work. Also, I've been meaning to write a Mets post about my non-resignation.

@anongoodnurse For what it's worth, I see no problem with the nontraditional genders, but I am also definitely not a mainstream Christian, so...

anongoodnurse

@PeterTurner Understood, and we all have a pretty good reason to fear that, with what has happened!

@PeterTurner That's good enough for me (and for SE, though I am not 'on their side'.) I'm a physician, and before that, a molecular biologist. God made two sexes, but he also made mutable DNA. Sex is genetically determined, but it's not a simple affair. For example, a baby is sometimes born a hermaphrodite (both sexes). We know this is not due to the baby's sin (maybe Original Sin), nor that of the parents (the fallen tower.)

Shortly after birth, a surgeon usually makes a decision as to which sex they will surgically 'keep' (usually they choose to 'make' the baby a female.) If this person experiences gender dysphoria, one can easily understand.

I suspect with more genetic study, we will find genetic mutations that cause gender dysphoria. But we believe (all of us) what we believe. Thanks for answering! :)

@El'endiaStarman Aye, I used to be a fundamentalist! Now I'm a liberal Democrat, see how far I've fallen! ;)

fredsbend

21:50

@anongoodnurse If you're not already familiar with Peter, any individual comment from him can be jarring.

@anongoodnurse This is a pretty big leap, "gender dysphoria likely has genetic links" from "intersex conditions demonstrate that life is not neat and pretty". I think they call that begging the question.

The fact is that most people claiming or diagnosed with gender dysphoria are otherwise typical and healthy people. Using the quite rare intersex conditions as a proxy for understanding gender dysphoria does not follow at all.

@El'endiaStarman I just cleared out the review queue, so that's a start.

El'endia Starman

22:12

@fredsbend Thank you! I tend to avoid doing stuff in the review queues but I might have to step in more, even though that'd be with a bigger hammer.

@anongoodnurse Lol, I went through a similar transition. I would hesitate to call myself a liberal Democrat. Rather, out of the two parties in the US, I identify more closely with the aims of the Democrats than those of the Republicans. (Especially the far-right attitudes that dominate today.)

fredsbend

22:48

If Democrats didn't abscond with the word "liberal" and somehow convince a large chunk of people that "right politics" is racist, I might call myself a right-side liberal.

curiousdannii

@anongoodnurse I'll let Peter speak for himself, but I suspect for many Christians it's because they believe that identity is God-given not self-determined

I believe that too, but I also believe that we shouldn't do anything to exacerbate someone's gender dysphoria. And I believe people should be free to work out their treatment plan with their pyschologist etc.

@fredsbend There's been research that there's a link with ASD. That's a topic I'll be watching for further research

fredsbend

@curiousdannii The only place I've heard that was on a TERF reddit. That's "Trans-Exclusive Radical Feminist", so not really the place to get facts on the issue, lol.

But it was a fun dive into the rabbit hole.

curiousdannii

@fredsbend It's in mainstream journals, for example: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30920347

fredsbend

23:05

@curiousdannii Crazy. I honestly thought they were just being nasty.

I must say, however, I think ASD is a suspect diagnosis in the first place. The idea that it's a "spectrum" implies that everyone is "on it" or exposed to it. I think it's quite over-diagnosed.

curiousdannii

@fredsbend But at this stage it's only a correlation, not a causation. Much more research is needed. And indeed, the correlation could be disproved through more studies.

fredsbend

Yes, now that I know there's actual study on it, I'll be watching for future studies and conclusions as well.

anongoodnurse

23:58

@fredsbend How much genetics do you know? I'm not trying to be snotty, but seriously, how much genetics do you know? I said, I suspect. And I do suspect it even if you don't. I'm not begging anything since there's no real argument on the table.

@fredsbend oh, my, now look who's doing the leaping...

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