The Upper Room

Lee Woofenden

03:48

@Eagel Do you consider yourself to be a Messianic Jew? Just curious.

Mr. Bultitude

04:37

@curiousdannii Where did Eagel (or Judaism) say that "your level of blessings are set for the year based on prior behaviour"? That's not rhetorical, I'm wondering if I missed something.

@Eagel What do you do with Col 2, which says, "Do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ"? Or Gal 4, where Paul laments that his readers are returning to the law and says, "You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you."

curiousdannii

04:58

> Tradition teaches that on Rosh Hashanah, each person is written down for a good or a poor year, based on their actions in the previous one, and their sincere efforts at atoning for mistakes or harm. On Yom Kippur, that fate is "sealed." (Wikipedia)

Eagel

07:44

@LeeWoofenden No

@curiousdannii Christians don

t talk about that stuff?You will reap what you sow.If you give,it will be given to you.Off course,in rains on everyone.God gives to everyone and is good to everyone.But what are you saying,that there is no consequence for how we live?That God will bless your life,whatever you do,because Jesus died for you sins? 1.I have never said that we are to celebrate these days(However Paul Did celebrate the feats of tabernacles,so it can

t be that stupid or false)

But these days tells us about Jesus. He his the Temple so to study the temple,the feat within and laws can explain many things about How God judge,heals,saves.But the temple is Jesus ,everything is in Jesus,created for him and by him

(feast of tabernacle ,not feats of tabernacle)

(feast not feat)

Eagel

08:10

@Mr.Bultitude Hey! Well I don`t do anything with it.Everything is in Jesus,it all points to Jesus.But not to understand these days and talk about them ,I think is good.It is scripture that points to Jesus and if it points to Jesus we can learn from them.The same way Paul is talking about other stuff from scripture that points to Jesus.Only Jesus saves.Paul also says:

4Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God

Paul did celebrate the feast of tabenacles,still He understands that The reality is iin Christ

Acts 18:21,

I must by all means keep this coming feast in Jerusalem; but I will return again to you, God willing.

(.But not to understand these days and talk about them?I think its good to understand and talk about them)

I really think If more christians would understand more of judaism and the feasts,there would be less problems in the church.We would agree on what Love is

Eagel

08:43

@Mr.Bultitude( I have heard someone explain That you can celebrate them But let no one judge on How you celebrate them! But I must admit ,not sure about these feasts) Another thing that is interesting Paul says "Lords is able to make him stand" ,then I think It seems some days can help you, make you stand,give you a stronger faith? But not sure about this

Eagel

09:02

@Mr.Bultitude And another thing I would like to add,That the book of revelation looks very much like in many ways two feasts:Feast of trumphets/rosh hashana and Yom Kippur. The trumphets and the opening of the books.Many messianic jews Think that Jesus will return on Rosh Hashana.

curiousdannii

12:34

@Eagel Your writing is rather hard to read sometimes... Also, you should stop using back ticks instead of apostrophes, that will stop it from turning into code formatting

@Eagel I didn't at all say that there are no consequences for how we live. But any kind of karma principle, that the blessings we receive in this life correspond to the good we do is completely against the gospel.

@Eagel Yes I would agree that the Jewish law is about Jesus, including the sacrificial system and the feasts. This is why we read and study the Old Testament. But you are not just saying that, but that we should also study Jewish books written after the New Testament by people who overtly rejected the claims of Jesus. How are we going to learn how the Feast of Tabernacles is about Jesus from people who think that the Feast of Tabernacles is absolutely not about Jesus in any way?

Eagel

@curiousdannii funny,I see that my writing seems crazy at times.But if you are able to read my "code " one might find it interesting.

curiousdannii

@Eagel It's just hard to read because you leave out spaces all the time. And sometimes put the spaces on the wrong side of the punctuation.

Eagel

If some smart man writes a book about Laws and nature,both created by God And this man can

t seems to agree that Jesus is the messiah,his writings are still interesting.Just as we see the old testament not the same way as many jews,still it is very close.One great reson why Jews don

t think Jesus is the Messiah is because,they are not looking for a high priest.For us Jesus is the high priest

curiousdannii

The people who wrote the Talmud had effectively as much cultural separation from the times of the patriarchs or the times of the exodus as we do now. Millennia had already passed and truth and tradition and legend had all been thoroughly mixed together. They knew the Hebrew language only slightly better than we do now, and not enough to clear up many of the mysteries of the Hebrew Bible, or else they would've written them down, and we would have their answers to rely on now.

@Eagel Please stop using the ` character instead of '

The ancient Jewish books like the Talmud are useful resources, and Christian scholars use them a lot. Pick up any Protestant technical commentary on the book of the OT and there will be lots of references to the Talmud etc. They are not neglected, but neither are they great fountains of knowledge and insight. They can give you academic knowledge, but they won't help you become closer to God or increase your faith

Eagel

"The people who wrote the Talmud had effectively as much cultural separation from the times of the patriarchs or the times of the exodus as we do now." Not the same,there is an oral tradition,people have been telling storys,explaning the Torah every year to the jews,strong tradition that was later written down.

Another point,this has to do with doctrine,if you dont agree ,that there is a spiritual world and angels and stuff.And that the moon and the sun has to do with seasons and feasts ,you would not think Talmud is very important

curiousdannii

12:52

@Eagel I do think that there is a spiritual world, angels and "stuff", and I think the sun and moon are for seasons. I do think the feasts are an important topic in the Bible.

Eagel

@curiousdannii If you go to a pentacostal meeting you can see crazy stuff,very hard to find in the bibel,still millions of pentacostals do this spiritual stuff all the time.Well you can find it in the Talmud.There are storys told from what was happening in the Temple duriing worship and feasts.This is super important to understand this.

@curiousdannii Here you see the temple doors are open every morning,no man did open them,this is after jesus died. Talmud:books.google.co.il/

@curiousdannii They say about Jesus that He said stuff that was not written down,and off course other saints have said things.Many great rabbis did explain how the law works way back! And told them about angels.Talmud is not what most christians think it is.And many things there are wrong and thats ok

@When they talk about Angels,what they are and who they are,why is this false?No reson to think they would know less then us

books.google.co.il/…

I think this link will work

Eagel

13:19

@LeeWoofenden You know when the jews pray and meditat ,they move arround while they stands still,this is because of what the priest did in the temple and while meditating and the Ruach Hakodesh came over them and gave them wisdom.Meeting where the Ruach Hakodesh comes over people,sound like a pentacostal meeting.y

Lee Woofenden

14:44

@Eagel Do you identify with any particular religious group, perspective, or movement?

Lee Woofenden

15:06

@Eagel FYI, I am not like many traditional Christians who believe that there is no value in other religions, and that Christianity is the only path to God. Though I myself am strongly Christian, I believe that God is present and active in all religions, and that the various religions are provided by God for the spiritual life of the particular nations and cultures in which those religions exist.

That's not to say that I agree with all of their teachings, and think that every "truth" is equal to every other "truth." But I believe that people of various religions who live good lives as their religion teaches them to do are on the path to heaven just as much as Christians are.

So although I personally don't follow Pentecostal or Jewish prayer practices, I believe that if those practices help Pentecostalists and Jews to feel closer to God, and inspire them to live a good life, then all is well.

I wrote an article about this viewpoint that continues to be the overall most heavily read article on my site, and continues to draw many comments: If there's One God, Why All the Different Religions?

Eagel

15:32

@LeeWoofenden Just Christian.Strong faith in that everything is created for him and by him as Paul says

@LeeWoofenden Off course there is value in other religions,even the Magi found God,but everyone has to enter in by the door Jesus

"But I believe that people of various religions who live good lives as their religion teaches them to do are on the path to heaven just as much as Christians are."I have no faith in this.I think everyone whoever that seeks God with a pure heart will find him and He is close to everyone.But as the scripture says,God wants everyone to be saved,And the Son of man is the savior,Jesus

@LeeWoofenden And whoever enters in another way is a thif,as the scripture says.

@LeeWoofenden But very interesting that the Jews consider the Laws of Noah to be a set a of rules for the rest of the world,and they who follow it has a part in olam haba(the world to come) But I dunno how that works with christianity

Lee Woofenden

@Eagel The fallacy in the usual traditional Christian interpretation of this is that we are required to intellectually believe in Jesus in order for Jesus to save us. Yes, Jesus is the only door. But Jesus provides that doorway to all people, of every religion, who follow their religion and their conscience and live a good life. I believe that Jesus is the savior of all people who have faith and kindness in their life, not only of professed Christians.

@Eagel I expressed this viewpoint more fully here: Is Jesus Christ the Only Way to Heaven?

@Eagel And even more starkly here: Do Atheists Go to Heaven?

@Eagel What is the source of your strong interest in the Talmud?

@Eagel And incidentally, in saying that Jesus provides a gate to heaven for people of all religions who live according to their conscience, I'm simply repeating and expanding upon what Paul said 2,000 years ago in Romans 2:12-16.

@Eagel And see also Romans 2:9-11:

> There will be anguish and distress for everyone who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality.

Jews and Greeks are not Christians. Paul explicitly states that non-Christians, too, will be judged for eternal life or eternal death based on whether they do evil or do good.

The rest of Romans, and the rest of Paul's letters, must be read in that context. Those who believe that Paul limited salvation to Christians are badly mistaken.

Christianity has gotten badly off track in its belief that salvation is exclusive to Christians.

Eagel

15:55

@LeeWoofenden Well the storys is,I became suddenly christian when i was 18,a man prayed for me,then suddenly I had faith in Jesus as the son of God.Without any church I started to study teh bibel,the after two years I when to a church and nothing that I was reading about did happen In that church.I was praying a lot about meeting men of God and wisdom.After many years of studying and praying.Dreams that have come true.Revalation and so on.

@LeeWoofenden Something deep inside said:,study Israel and study the offering. And later I found out That much of the questions I had about angels and spiritual stuff,was found in the Talmud.

Lee Woofenden

@Eagel Do you have any Jewish ancestry?

Eagel

@LeeWoofenden But also bad stuff is in the Talmud.You eat only what is good for you

Lee Woofenden

@Eagel Yes, I understand.

@Eagel Jesus had already said the same thing: that people of all nations will be judged for eternal life or eternal punishment based on their love and service to the neighbor, or lack thereof. He really couldn't have expressed this any more clearly than he did in Matthew 25:31-46.

Christians who believe that only Christians are saved are ignoring and denying the plain teachings of both Jesus and Paul.

"All the nations" (Matthew 25:32) means all the nations, not just the Christian nations.

Eagel

@LeeWoofenden I don`t know,but I have gipsy blood I found that out some years ago.Som say the gipsys are connected to "Lost tribe of Israel"

Lee Woofenden

@Eagel I'm just wondering if you had a Jewish background, or came to your interest in the Talmud independently. Either way is fine. I'm just seeking information.

@Eagel It sounds like you came to that interest independently, without any Jewish background. Which, if anything, makes that interest more interesting. ;-)

Eagel

16:06

@LeeWoofenden independently,because I have been praying about spiritual revelation for years,crazy,no church leader I meet knows much about angels or demons or anything spiritual.But in judaism there is an answer for everything"almost"

@LeeWoofenden In the pentecostal church people speak about spiritual questions but there is so much feeling and no doctrine

@LeeWoofenden Still Paul says: We fight against powers in heavenly .... and not humans

Lee Woofenden

@Eagel Swedenborg wrote a whole book about angels, demons, and the spiritual world: Heaven and Hell. Ever since he published it, it has been far and away his most popular book. And it has had great influence on Western views of angels and heaven, as you can see here:

8

A: What is the source of the belief that the deceased become angels?

In Heaven: A History (1995: Yale University Press) the authors, Drs. Colleen McDannell and Bernhard Lang, state that Emanuel Swedenborg (1688-1772) had a pivotal role in bringing about a changed view of heaven, including the idea that angels are humans who have died and gone on to heaven, rather ...

Eagel

@LeeWoofenden There are thousands of books on spiritual stuff in the pentecostal church .. but ..there not as deep in my mind as The Talmud or kabbalah.Because there they talk about what a demon is .. or what an angel does.You know The word/name of angels in hebrew can also mean something like the Laws of nature And since angels are spirtual They can be created when we do good deeds.And some Rabbis say there are angels created only for one day

Nathaniel

@Eagel Have you seen the writings of J. Rodman Williams? He is a highly regarded Pentecostal theologian, and has written a thick systematic theology from that perspective.

Eagel

16:21

@Nathaniel No I have not.I know there are books.There are 2,1 christians,someone gotta know deep stuff.

@LeeWoofenden 1. example: The ninety-first psalm was composed by Moses as a sort of talisman or protection against demons whom he feared, when about to ascend Mount Sinai, as putting a stumbling block in his way. Agras, daughter of Machlas, is the name of a

female demon who commands a large number of associates or assistants, and there is one great demon whose name is קטב (Kative), in Hebrew 'Arrow.' The Psalmist alludes to this when he says, 'The arrow that flieth by day' (Ps. 91.). This terrible demon has

exceptional power between the first six and the last nine hours of the twenty-four. His power is greatest neither in the shade, nor in the sun, but in the condition betwixt sun and shade. His physiognomy is described as follows: head similar to that of a calf,

Nathaniel

@Eagel I haven't followed all your conversations here, so forgive me if you aren't interested in this, but Williams is probably your best bet for a true Pentecostal theology that is both orthodox (i.e., trinitarian, Christ-centered) and thorough.

Eagel

@Nathaniel I am sure He knows alot of stuff.I am more what you would call mystical.Why are humans created the way they are,Jesus is the temple,common christian doctrine.But the zohar(kabbalah)your brain is the ark of the covenant and eyes are the menorah that lights up the temple and you stomach is the offering place,learn about the temple ,then you know your body. (And the new testament says bring your body as an offering,and paul says:you body is for God

Nathaniel

Okay, fair enough

Eagel

@Nathaniel And also in Christianity we have a soul and body and spirit.In judaism Everything has a soul! Why did christians stop and think,hey! only humans has a soul?These are the questions I have .But Thank you I will read some j.Rodman

@LeeWoofenden By studying Talmud or whatever ,I dont care.Just to understand how we can heal people and understand how we can serve God in the spirit.

@LeeWoofenden But we need to understand and pray that the knowledge we seek is the truth and after Gods will for us to learn it

Eagel

17:38

@LeeWoofenden How did you become a swedenborgian?

Lee Woofenden

@Eagel I was born that way.

Eagel

@LeeWoofenden very deep answer

I just add that the example I have written above,is from Bereshit Rabba,not my own understanding

@LeeWoofenden I have been a million times in Sweden but I have never heard of Emanuell Swedenborg,looking at a video/preaching right now from some kinda swedenborgian church

@LeeWoofenden you dont eat meat or drink?

Lee Woofenden

17:58

@Eagel Haha. Well, Swedenborgianism goes back five or six generations in both my mother's and fathers patrilinear ancestry, and there have been at least half a dozen Swedenborgian ministers in my family. So the circumstances of my birth certainly had a lot to do with my being a Swedenborgian.

As a teenager, I did look into other churches and religions. But I didn't find anything that came anywhere near the clarity, depth, and power of what I already had. And as they say, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." :-)

Flimzy

@LeeWoofenden Is your wife a cradle Swedenborgian, too?

Lee Woofenden

@Eagel The Swedenborgian Church was never very big in Sweden. It started in England fifteen years after Swedenborg's death, and spread thinly around the globe from there. It comes in various flavors and permutations, from conservative to liberal.

@Flimzy No. She became a Swedenborgian in her mid-20s.

@Eagel I don't personally eat meat or drink alcohol. But that was my own decision, and is not particularly the teaching of Swedenborg or the Swedenborgian church. Most Swedenborgians live fairly conventionally.

Eagel

@LeeWoofenden I almost drink meat.I could not live without meat. So you are a priest of somekind?

Lee Woofenden

@Eagel What country do you come from, and what country do you live in now?

Eagel

Norway

Lee Woofenden

18:03

@Eagel I am an ordained Swedenborgian minister in what is probably the most liberal Swedenborgian denomination in the world: The Swedenborgian Church of North America. However, I'm no longer very active in the denomination. I did serve as pastor of a Swedenborgian church in Massachusetts for ten years.

@Eagel I'm aware that various religions have various dietary rules and strictures. Swedenborg focused on one's inner life and one's life of service to the neighbor and the community. Most Swedenborgians don't think diet, dress, and so on are all that important from a religious perspective. They're personal choices. My physical lifestyle choices mostly have to do with physical health rather than with any religious laws and strictures.

Flimzy

@LeeWoofenden: A completely off-the-wall question: How many languages do you speak (or read & write)? (Since I know you do translation work)

Lee Woofenden

@Eagel My wife and I would love to visit Sweden and Norway some day.

Flimzy

@LeeWoofenden My wife and I will be taking my mother to both countries later this year.

Perhaps you'd like to join us :)

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy I speak only one language: English. I can read Swedenborg's Latin reasonably well, and work my way through Classical Latin with a dictionary. My knowledge of Hebrew and Greek is less than my knowledge of Latin, but once again, I can work through OT Hebrew and NT Greek with a dictionary. I've had a smattering of French, Spanish, and Italian, but not enough to do much with it.

@Flimzy My primary translation work is with Swedenborg's neo-classical Latin.

@Flimzy Would love to if work and finances permitted. My wife is hoping to be through with her very demanding retail management job within the next five years. At that point, if we're not poverty-stricken, we hope to do a bit of traveling. Scandinavia and Africa (particularly Nigeria and Zambia) are on the list.

@Flimzy I do have one translation in print: The Heavenly City: A Spiritual Guidebook, by Emanuel Swedenborg

Eagel

@LeeWoofenden@Flimzy Yeah ! Your welcome to scandinavia! I know both countrys well and speak both languages. But Norway is very expensive.

Flimzy

18:12

@Eagel: I'm not sure what that video is meant to be about... it's a bit entertaining, but I don't think it's very meaningful.

@LeeWoofenden If things go my way, within 5 years I'll be buying some property in either Mexico or Guatemala... but at that point, you're welcome to visit us there :)

Lee Woofenden

@Eagel I hear that a lot of Swedes get jobs in Norway, which has a freer economy and more wealth than the more heavily controlled and taxed Swedish economy.

Eagel

@Flimzy Just a stupid video,talking about how college students think about life.How education will form humans to think that everything is OK

Lee Woofenden

@Eagel My primary interest would be to visit the various sites associated with Swedenborg in Sweden. His garden house, in which he wrote many of his theological writings, is still preserved in a park in Sweden.

@Flimzy That would be another fun place to visit.

Flimzy

@Eagel College students are supposed to be stupid. That's why they're in college. :P

I was stupid at that age!

Eagel

@LeeWoofenden Sweden is a very good country to live in,just not as rich as Norway because we have so much oil. 5 million people and the gouverment has a 400 billion pluss budget

@LeeWoofenden 400 billion + every year

Lee Woofenden

18:17

Skansen open-air museum, Stockholm: Emanuel Swedenborg's summerhouse and the Rose Garden

Eagel

@LeeWoofenden But you cant give the money to the people so they buy streets in paris and stuff

@LeeWoofenden Stockholm is nice

Lee Woofenden

Better: The Swedenborg's summerhouse

@Flimzy Speak for yourself. I was an idiot!

And a little more about Swedenborg's garden: A Peek inside Swedenborg’s Garden

Flimzy

Was he a botanist as well? Or he just wrote in a garden?

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy He studied all of the sciences of his day, and wrote books about many of them--though botany was not one of the ones he wrote a book about.

@Flimzy Mostly, he was an avid gardener. His garden was well-known by the locals, and he often gave garden tours to visitors. He loved to import plants from other continents, especially from North America, and was able to get various "exotic" plants and flowers through his far-flung social and political connections.

Flimzy

In some ways, I wish I lived in a time when I could be considered an expert in "all the sciences."

On the other hand, specialization is also fun...

Lee Woofenden

18:29

@Flimzy Swedenborg was one of the last of the so-called Renaissance Men. After his time, it became impossible to cover all of the sciences in one brain and lifetime, because scientific knowledge exploded. We Swedenborgians think that was one of the results of the Last Judgment and Second Coming that Swedenborg believed took place in the spiritual world during his lifetime.

Flimzy

@LeeWoofenden Interesting.

Lee Woofenden

Swedenborg did write books about physics, cosmology, anatomy, physiology, chemistry, crystallography, psychology, and a few other scientific subjects, though he didn't publish all of them in his lifetime.

That was all before his spiritual awakening, when he turned his writing and publishing efforts to Bible exposition and theology. Though he did write and partially publish a fascinating transitional work called On the Worship and Love of God that is a fascinating fusion of poetry, philosophy, religion, and science.

Flimzy

@LeeWoofenden We still had a lot of sceintific "generalists" well into the 18th and 19th centuries. George Washington Carver, Thomas Edison, Benjamin Franklin. Not that they all had a "full understanding" of every area, but they generalized in ways that simply aren't possible today, if you hope to be an expert in anything.

Or maybe that is possible today, and we're just trained to think it isn't possible to do real science outside of a university or large corporation.

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy Yes. As scientific knowledge expanded, generalists moved to general areas of science and combinations of scientific disciplines rather than covering the whole of science, as Swedenborg and others during and before his time were able to do.

During Swedenborg's day it was still possible for someone with the time and money to read and digest all of the important scientific works in the various sciences. After his time that became impossible.

Flimzy

Now that you're not heavily involved in your denomination as a pastor, what is your trade?

Lee Woofenden

18:43

Of course, a lot of that science has since been superseded. And some of it became incorporated into Swedenborg's theological works—which has been the occasion of much debate among Swedenborgians of various stripes, given that we now know some of the scientific and cultural statements Swedenborg made in his theological works simply aren't true. That doesn't bother me. He never claimed to be omniscient and infallible. But it does bother some conservative Swedenborgians.

@Flimzy I work for the Swedenborg Foundation as Annotations Editor for the New Century Edition of Swedenborg's works, now in publication. Basically, I write and edit Swedenborg-related footnotes all day.

Flimzy

@LeeWoofenden I think we have to be careful to judge people according to their historical context, rather than our own norms. If we reject everyone who wrote things we would consider abhorrent today, we'd have to reject the US constitution, for example.

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy However, over the next five years or so, my wife and I hope to transition to supporting ourselves through spiritual outreach to the public in various forms. Wish us luck! ;-)

El'endia Starman

@LeeWoofenden You're probably one of very few non-programmers who visit a Stack Exchange site during work. :P

Flimzy

@LeeWoofenden That sounds riveting! Now I know why you're so eager to pop on chat during work hours! ha

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy Yep. Some of the stuff about slavery in the U.S. constitution is pretty bad by today's standards.

@El'endiaStarman Haha! This is work! ;-)

El'endia Starman

18:47

@LeeWoofenden That was the other thing that came to mind, actually. :P

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy Yeah. Riveting one technical and theological rivet at a time.

Flimzy

@LeeWoofenden Actually, I can see how that would be quite interesting work... But of course it would have to be a subject matter I cared deeply about. And clearly you do about that subject.

Lee Woofenden

@El'endiaStarman Technically, it's not work work, because I don't get paid for it. But I consider everything I do along spiritual lines to be the work God put me here on earth to do.

Flimzy

My non-work work is my favorite work.

My work work allows me to do it. :)

(I love how in English, we repeat a word, with that emphasis, to indicate something is more true. I wonder if other languages do the same thing.)

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy Yes. Honestly, it does get tedious. But it also requires me to do very careful research into exactly what Swedenborg said on particular subjects, as compared to what various Swedenborgian theologians and traditions have built up over the years. And that adds to my overall stock and precision of knowledge on my primary subject of expertise and usefulness in this world.

El'endia Starman

18:50

Lemme go ask in The Nineteenth Byte. We have a lot of foreign language speakers (either as their first language or not).

Flimzy

@El'endiaStarman What is the Nineteenth Byte?

@LeeWoofenden Do you study other theologians? Clearly your work demands that you study minute details of Swedenborg, but on a personal level, do you study others?

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy Hebrew has a somewhat related idiom that indicates emphasis. It would come across in English as, for example, "Dying he shall die," which means, more idiomatically translated, "He shall certainly die." One of my brothers, who does various kinds of skilled labor for a living, was often heard to say, when he finished a project that he was particularly pleased with the results of, that it was "all nice nice."

El'endia Starman

@Flimzy This wonderful place:

The Nineteenth Byte

The Nineteenth Byte: General discussion for codegolf.stackexc...

10

3

Flimzy

code golf... cute.

I enjoy reading that site occasionally.

I have too much non-work work to do, to spend time asking or answering questions there, though :)

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy I study other theologians when I have to. But once again, honestly, I find most other theologians to be rather dark and turgid compared to the clarity of Swedenborg's theology. Occasionally I do find one that I enjoy. But mostly I find it laborious and unenlightening to read traditional Christian theologians.

I'm sorry if that steps on the toes of many people here. But that's how I experience it.

Flimzy

18:54

@LeeWoofenden Who else have you read and enjoyed, even if not as much?

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy I'm currently reading a book by Bart Ehrman that has some fascinating stuff in it--the one about forgeries in the Bible.

@Flimzy @DickHarfield recommended it to me here on C.SE.

Flimzy

Interesting. I have one of his books in my wish list. When Jesus Became God.

I find myself not reading theology so much as history of theology.

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy I read most of one of the Emergent Church books, by one of its leaders (Tony Jones, maybe), and though it was interesting, I got frustrated at his continual lack of conclusions about Christianity, theology, etc. I kept asking in my mind, "Yes, but what do you believe?!?"

Flimzy

heh

@LeeWoofenden I think that's how everyone felt after reading Rob Bell's "Love Wins"

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy What I love about Swedenborg is that his theology does completely revolve around love, but that focus on love is coupled with a very specific and detailed Christian theology. Too much fuzziness annoys and cloys me. I like some definite theological structure to wrap my mind around.

And I have very high standards in that regard due to my Swedenborgian background and upbringing. So far, nothing else really holds a candle to the depth and precision of Swedenborg's theology.

Flimzy

19:01

@LeeWoofenden I don't mind fuzziness in some areas. I think there's a lot the Bible doesn't tell us, and that's okay. It tells us what we need to know. I get frustrated when people try to put everything into tidy boxes. This is my complaint with Calvinism.

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy My mother, also a born, bred, and ardent Swedenborgian, used to say, "Once you've read Swedenborg, why would you want to read anyone else?"

Flimzy

Or with systematic theology in general.

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy The error, I believe, is in trying to over-simplify and over-systematize a reality that is, in fact, immensely complex and varied. Plus some of that stuff is just plain wrong, and even loopy, not to mention being unbiblical.

Flimzy

For a while I enjoyed reading Brian McLaren. Some of his books still rank as "favorites" of mine.

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy Swedenborg's theology is very clear, detailed, and specific, but it moves toward openness, inclusion, and broadness rather than toward narrowness and exclusivity, as many of the earlier hard-core Christian theologies do.

Flimzy

19:04

But he's not so much a theologian, either... more an apologists... who some now think is heretical. Maybe that's one reason I like him :P

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy I view Calvin as the very nadir of destruction of Christian theology, following right after Luther.

Predestination is a horrific doctrine.

Faith alone is only slightly less bad.

Both condemn the vast majority of humanity to eternal torment in hell through no fault of their own. But Calvinism is the absolute worst in that regard.

Flimzy

I think in the historical context, it makes sense though. The church had just emerged from centuries of authoritarian oppression. The natural reaction to "You must do as the Church says to be saved," would obviously be "Faith alone."

Lee Woofenden

I could never accept a theology based on such systemic injustice.

Flimzy

That doesn't make it right, mind you...

But human history works more like a pendulum than an arrow...

swinging from extreme to extreme, before eventually settling on something basically right.

El'endia Starman

@Flimzy Indonesian (or whatever the actual name of the language is) uses reduplication for plurals. Finnish and German also have reduplication like English, but those may have been borrowed from English.

Flimzy

19:08

On a smaller scale, most church splits (at least the ones I've witnessed, or read enough about to comment on), have been over-reactions to actual errors.

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy I do understand why Luther did it. But it was a major blunder, and led to the complete doctrinal destruction of Christianity. At least Catholicism explicitly believed that the way you live is essential to your salvation, even if they had very mechanical and wrong notions about that in relation to church sacraments, behavioral requirements, indulgences, etc.

Flimzy

@El'endiaStarman Interesting. Thanks for checking :)

El'endia Starman

Also, there was a Vsauce video on it:

Is Cereal Soup?

►

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy Well, we view it a little differently. We see human history as divided into several major "churches," or spiritual eras, each of which started out in a state of relative goodness and integrity, but then steadily declined until there was nothing good and true in it, whereupon a new "church" or spiritual era supplanted the old one and began that cycle once again.

We view the history of Christianity in that light: it started out with goodness and integrity in the time of Jesus, his immediate followers, and those they directly touched. But within a few centuries it began a downward spiral into doctrinal and moral corruption. The Protestant Reformation did do some good in giving the Bible back to the people. But doctrinally it completed the destruction of the Christian Church with its doctrine of justification by faith alone.

It was then necessary for the existing Christian "church" or spiritual era to come to an end, and a new one to begin—which we believe occurred during Swedenborg's lifetime, although the effects of it will take centuries to work themselves out.

Flimzy

@LeeWoofenden The doctrine of Christianity was practically destroyed (in the west, anyway) prior to Luther, thanks to the monopoly on literacy. I think the biggest thing Luther did for the church was print the Bible in German. It would have happened sooner or later... so I don't necessarily credit Luther, personally, for that achievement. But I think that Christian doctrine had been largely hijacked by a corrupt church up until that point.

So whether Luther's theological contribution was positive or negative (or possibly some of each), I think is mostly beside the point... the existing church was corrupt and needed a reality check. And such reality checks are never peaceful, or tidy.

Lee Woofenden

19:14

@Flimzy Yes. We view making the Bible available to the people as a necessary precursor to the (spiritual) Last Judgment and Second Coming that took place a couple centuries later during Swedenborg's time and the Age of Enlightenment. So the Protestant Reformation wasn't for naught. It's just that its doctrines, from Luther and especially Calvin, dealt the final deathblow to Christian doctrine.

That, we believe, is what finally made it necessary for the Lord to provide a new revelation of genuine Christian doctrine, which, we believe, he accomplished through the agency of Swedenborg's theological writings. Now that Christian doctrine had been totally destroyed and falsified, it was necessary to provide a renewed understanding of Christian doctrine to the world, so that religion and Christianity would not altogether perish in atheism.

I believe that the great rise of atheism and agnosticism in the West is a direct result of an utterly corrupt, irrational, and unjust "Christian" doctrine that educated, thinking, and caring people can simply no longer accept when they examine it closely.

Flimzy

@LeeWoofenden I guess I don't think "doctrine" is so important.

Lee Woofenden

Swedenborg in fact predicted that the Christian doctrines dominant in his day would lead to atheism.

Flimzy

The fact that I don't think doctrine is so important is probably largely why I don't spend a lot of time reading "theology"... heh

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy I agree that the Protestant Reformation was a necessary counterbalance to and reaction against a "Christian" church that had become terribly corrupt. Everything happens under God's providence.

@Flimzy haha

Well, I do think that theology and doctrine are important. I believe the current widespread rejection of doctrine and theology is largely a result of false doctrine masquerading as Christian doctrine. People read works of systematic theology and say, "This stuff is nuts." So they throw away all theology because the theology we've had up to now is so bad.

Good and true doctrine provide needed direction and guidance for our lives. Without it, we're leaves blown in the wind, with no structure or principles by which to guide our lives, except a generalized "all you need is love" philosophy that really doesn't help much when you're facing a particular, difficult issue in your life.

Flimzy

When I say that I don't think "doctrine" is so important, what I mean is: God doesn't judge us on our doctrine. Our doctrine doesn't make us good people or bad people.

What ultimately matters, is how we live our lives.

doctrine matters insofar as it affects how we live our lives--I agree with you on that completely.

But doctrine isn't the end. It's a means.

And for many people, it's a means that simply doesn't matter.

Lee Woofenden

19:23

My wife and I titled our blog Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life because, Swedenborgians that we are, we believe that doctrine and teaching should provide direct, practical help to ordinary people in their everyday lives.

If it doesn't do that, what good is it?

Flimzy

If you're successfully "caring for the widows and orphans", and "doing unto the least of these," then debating about how many persons are in the Trinity, or whether predestination makes any logical sense, isn't necessary.

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy Yes. In Swedenborg's theology, doctrine is precisely a means by which love carries out its purposes. That's fundamental to his theology.

@Flimzy And I agree that doctrine, true or false, does not make us good people or bad people, nor does God judge us by our doctrine. So the whole idea that we are "justified by faith" is a complete non-starter for me.

@Flimzy Doctrine is what tells us that we should care for the widows and orphans, and do good for the least of these. And once again, if it doesn't do that, or the equivalent guidance toward love and service toward our fellow human beings in general, what good is it?

Flimzy

@LeeWoofenden That's fair... but I think most people don't necessarily need doctrine to tell them why. It's innate.

Doctrine is useful when that innate direction is lost or corrupted, of course.

Correct doctrine helps us stay on the "straight and narrow".

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy Still, I do believe that there is an actual nature of God and salvation, and that if we misunderstand the true nature of God and salvation (to the extent that our finite human minds can understand them) it does vitiate our ability to be effective in walking our spiritual path and serving our fellow human beings.

Flimzy

@LeeWoofenden Sure. I also agree there is an actual nature of God and salvation. And understanding a correct form of that is far superior to believing a false form of it.

Lee Woofenden

19:31

@Flimzy I'm not so sure it is innate. Very few people have no values inculcated into them as they grow up. And those who truly do grow up without any teachings or values from caregivers and teachers don't necessarily develop them on their own.

Flimzy

If my doctrine tells me that the way to eternal reward is to strap a bomb to my chest and kill a bunch of school children... that matters.

If my doctrine tells me that the world will end within a generation, so it doesn't matter that my company pours toxic waste into the ocean... that matters.

Lee Woofenden

In Swedenborg's day there was a fascination with a few individuals who had apparently been abandoned in the forest at a very young age and grew up without human guidance and care. And there have been a few such instances since then. Being deprived of that human guidance in our formative years seems to cause parts of our "civilized" brain simply not to be wired, such that we cannot fully develop those areas, if at all, in later life.

@Flimzy Right. False doctrine can and does have serious consequences.

@Flimzy Well, that's what I've devoted my life to. I believe that a true and accurate understanding of God, the universe, and everything does matter greatly to people's ordinary, everyday lives, as well as to their eternal salvation. And I spend most of my waking ours doing my best to spread such understanding to as many people as will listen.

Flimzy

20:00

@LeeWoofenden: You mentioned earlier that you're part of the more liberal Swedenborgian churches... What are the issues that separate the liberal from conservative Swedenborgians?

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy Primarily the nature of Swedenborg's writings, the proper form of church polity, and the issue of separation from or engagement with the wider society.

Flimzy

@LeeWoofenden Are Swedenborgians traditionally isolationists, similar to the Amish or Quakers?

Lee Woofenden

The two main denominations in this country fall on opposite sides of these divides, and other Swedenborgian church organizations around the world tend to fall into one camp or the other.

@Flimzy The issue of isolationism vs. engagement is one of those major divides. My denomination believes in engaging with the wider world. We're a member of the National Council of Churches, and our local churches are generally quite engaged in their respective communities.

The other major branch in this country believes that the rest of Christianity is utterly corrupt, such that it's necessary to separate from them; so they form their own somewhat isolated communities, though many of them do have jobs out in the wider community, and do still believe, as we do, in serving the community and the world.

The other branch also runs its own parochial school system for as many of its children and teens as it can. In our branch, parents generally send their children through the regular public (or private) school systems in their towns.

Flimzy

@LeeWoofenden That does sound quite similar at least to the Amish I'm most familiar with in Kansas.

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy Doctrinally, the big split occurred in 1890, when a group of conservative Swedenborgians split off from our denomination and declared that Swedenborg's writings are the Third Testament of the Word of God—an idea that our denomination has always rejected. They also formed a hierarchical episcopal, clergy-run system of church government, whereas our denomination operates by a congregational polity with a mixed lay and clergy elected system of governance.

@Flimzy They're sort of high-tech Amish. They definitely don't reject modern science and technology. But they are quite clannish, and tend to marry within the church.

Flimzy

20:12

On the surface, it sounds not dissimilar from the Amish/Mennonite split

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy They're also fairly conservative politically and socially. They still don't ordain women (we started ordaining women in 1972), and they believe homosexuality is evil and sinful (we started ordaining openly gay and lesbian people in 1997).

@Flimzy It is our own Swedenborgian flavor of the divides that split many churches, communities, and nations into different camps.

Flimzy

Although of course Mennonites are far more numerous than the Amish today... and far more diverse, from very conservative groups, where men and women sit on separate sides of the church during Sunday worship... to the more liberal congregations, which also ordain women and gay and lesbian people

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy I don't know if it's still the case, but the more conservative denomination of Swedenborgians used to have separate schools for boys and girls from junior high onward. And they tend to be quite strict about dating, sex, and marriage.

Flimzy

But originally, Mennonites were isolationists... and the Amish split off as a more conservative schism of the group.

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy The very first Swedenborgian ministers were what later came to be known as "non-separatists." They believed in remaining in the denominations they were already in--mostly Anglican and Methodist, and spreading Swedenborg within those denominations.

And the very first major controversy among followers of Swedenborg was whether to separate from the existing churches and form a separate church. This all happened within two decades of Swedenborg's death back in the late 1700s.

The various Swedenborgian denominations around the world today are the heirs of the "separatist" movement among those early followers of Swedenborg.

Flimzy

20:19

@LeeWoofenden That particular decision was made easy for the Mennonites, by the fact that the existing churches decided to murder any Mennonites they could get their hands on. :P

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy Yes, that would tend to cause them to separate from the main body!

@Flimzy There was a fair amount of persecution of early Swedenborgians also, though I'm not aware that any of them were actually executed for their beliefs. They were simply run out of their university professorships and other jobs.

Flimzy

I should say Anabaptists... at that stage, the Mennonites had not yet emerged as a distinct group.

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy What time period did this take place in?

Flimzy

Menno Simons, the namesake of the Mennonites, lived 1496–1561

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy Did the Mennonites form during his lifetime?

Flimzy

20:22

Yes, although I'm not sure how soon they started using that name.

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy So this was during the early days of the Protestant Reformation. Swedenborg came along a couple of centuries later, when things had started to settle down a bit.

Flimzy

Yes. Much of the Anapatists' formation happened concurrently, and largely separately (but not entirely) from the Protestant Reformation.

Both the Catholics and Lutherans considered Anabaptists to be heretics... So they clearly were a separate branch of Christianity

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy There was an awful lot of internicine warfare among Christians in the first century or two of Reformation times. Of course, that had happened beforehand also, but it was more one-sided: the Catholic Church squashed any upstart groups and executed their leaders.

@Flimzy Do they subscribe to salvation/justification by faith alone? Penal substitution?

Flimzy

Many modern Mennonites (at least in America) do, by virtue of that being modern pop theology.

Traditionally, I'm not sure what their model of salvation looks like... I know it's down played.

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy What about their original theology?

@Flimzy Okay.

Flimzy

20:25

Mennonites were best known for their emphasis on service and pacifism.

Lee Woofenden

Just curious as to whether they are doctrinally Protestants, or something else.

Flimzy

Mennonite

The Mennonites are Christian groups belonging to the church communities of Anabaptist denominations named after Menno Simons (1496–1561) of Friesland in what is now the Netherlands. Through his writings, Simons articulated and formalized the teachings of earlier Swiss founders. The early teachings of the Mennonites were founded on the belief in both the mission and ministry of Jesus, which the original Anabaptist followers held to with great conviction despite persecution by the various Roman Catholic and Protestant states. Rather than fight, the majority of these followers survived by fleeing...

doesn't provide much detail

Lee Woofenden

Swedenborgians are sometimes loosely regarded as Protestants. And although our church polity and culture is largely Protestant simply because most of our original converts were Protestant, doctrinally we are not Protestant.

Flimzy

Early on, the thing that defined them was that they re-baptized adults, which was the "heracy" for which they were executed.

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy One of the things that strikes me about the many sects and divisions within Protestantism is how trivial many of the dividing lines are.

Flimzy

20:30

directionjournal.org/30/2/atonement-in-anabaptist-theology.html

Lee Woofenden

A lot of those divisions strike me as "the color of the bicycle shed" issues.

Flimzy

@LeeWoofenden I agree.

> The nickname “Anabaptist” was the dirtiest name a person could be called in sixteenth-century Christian Europe.

Wow.

> Anabaptists cannot be identified by any unifying creeds. So great was their insistence on the primacy of Scripture that, because of their human origin, they refused to subscribe to any creed.

I guess that helps explain why it's hard to find what the original anabaptists thought about salvation, or other doctrinal issues.

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy Upon quickly skimming parts of the article, it seems that Anabaptist atonement theory was a somewhat undefined mix of faith alone theology and a theology of atonement as the transformation of the person into a being in harmony with God—which latter is more harmonious with Swedenborgian atonement theology.

Flimzy

Growing up in a Mennonite church (since the age of 9 or so), I would say that's fairly consistent with what I learned.

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy My wife also grew up loosely Mennonite, in small-town Kansas.

Flimzy

20:36

Even if sometimes it's talked about in terms of "faith alone," the transformation is considered essential.

@LeeWoofenden I think I remember you mentioning that once... in Hesston was it?

Lee Woofenden

However, although her thinking was affected by what she heard in church, she never really subscribed to that theology. She drifted into the Swedenborgian church in San Francisco in her mid-20s, and was gradually hooked and convinced over a period of several years.

@Flimzy Inman.

Flimzy

Ahh... maybe we can't be friends now.

Inman was my highschool's rival :P

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy Haha! What town did you grow up in?

Flimzy

Goessel

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy Wow! You guys grew up right next door to each other! What years were you in Goessel?

Flimzy

20:41

My mother still lives in Goessel. My family moved there in 1989, and I left in 2003.

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy She was already gone by then. I guess you're a bit of a youngster. ;-)

Flimzy

Yeah, probably so. hehe

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy You were born there?

Flimzy

I graduated high school in 98

I was born in Oklahoma City

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy Oh. How old were you when you moved to Goessel?

@Flimzy So you were born in . . . 1980?

Flimzy

20:44

My father was a freelance writer... what we would now call a digital nomad, but in the days before everything was digital. So when we were looking for a place to move, my parents chose a church they liked (a Mennonite congregation in nearby Newton) first, then found an affordable house nearby.

I was born in 79.

I was 9 when we moved to Goessel.

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy Okay. Well, I think my wife graduated and left Inman around 1983 or 1984. Not sure exactly when. She wasn't involved in the local sports teams anyway, so you don't have to not like her. ;-)

Flimzy

We probably know a lot of the same people, then.

But I won't dislike her :)

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy Quite possibly. She mostly kept to herself. But of course, she did know the locals.

She did not have a happy childhood.

Flimzy

Well, it's late here... and tomorrow I have to work and prepare for my flight to your side of the globe.

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy Where are you headed? And is it for work?

Flimzy

20:50

I'll spend a week and a half in Seattle. Yes, for work.

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy Hmm. Been to Seattle many times. Nice city. Hope you have some time to enjoy it.

Flimzy

Yeah, I should have time over the weekend.

Lee Woofenden

Good night and safe journeys.

Flimzy

I've been there once for a conference, but didn't have a chance to explore.

So I'm looking forward to that this time.

Talk to you later.

Dick Harfield

21:18

@LeeWoofenden @LeeWoofenden Glad you are finding this fascinating.

Nathaniel

21:46

As some of you know, Latin.SE is now in public beta. It's time to get rid of the ugly community promotion ad we have right now. Should I replace that image with my new one? Or would it be better to post it as a new answer?

I don't think there's any doubt that my new ad is better, but perhaps I'm biased. Here's a link to it if you are interested. Feedback is welcome.

El'endia Starman

22:00

I'd say post it as a new answer.

Nathaniel

@El'endiaStarman Done; thanks.

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A: Community Promotion Ads - 2016

The Nineteenth Byte

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