The Upper Room

curiousdannii

00:38

@Eagel Lots of Christians have written very helpful books and commentaries that help us understand the Bible and how we should live. Why would you turn to a product of an anti-Jesus movement that both rejects the person of Jesus, the son of God, and all of the God inspired scriptures of the New Testament?

2

Raju

09:41

cv-pls off topic looking for a soulmate - peter - 2016-04-17 09:21:32Z

Flimzy

11:04

@Raju That's more than off-topic... it's spam.

Eagel

11:28

@curiousdannii I think that is a great mistake. 1.Jesus is talking about the temple like it is his own body,Why would we not listen to what the rabbis has to say about the Temple and all there knowledge,great blessing.2.Jesus fulfilled the law,the law is full of feasts,understanding the feast ans old storys about what happen during the feasts

.Storys told by rabbis,of miracles and angels.The Paul says that Jesus is the living image of God.Great knowledge to understand what the great rabbis are teaching about the law and feasts and scripture,Jesus says:you search the scripture,but they are talking about me

When we read the old teatstament we see Jesus,and when you read the Talmud you can also see Jesus the same way BUT they do not see it that way ,the same way they do not see Jesus in the old testament.Talmud is not SCRIPTURE,so there is alot of stuff there that is way off.But there is also alot of great stuff!That would help us in a great way.

I don

t care if there is an anti Jesus movment,there eyes are not open.Still Jesus is in the scripture right there,they read about Jesus everyday ,but still the many Jews don

t see that its Jesus Christ they are reading about.And there are resons for this and I wont explain why,takes to much time.

There are storys in the Talmud that would be a great blessing for Christians.Like storys about Just after Jesus died.The Temple Doors did open, and the priest was scared! The most holy place on earth,and everyday the doors was suddenly open,they did not understand what was going on,even after they cloesed the doors at night,they where open next morning.For a christian this is not hard to understand,Now It is open for everyone!

The Talmud is not a work of an anti Jesus movment,that is a great mistake.Is is like closing the door to deep knowledge of God and humans.Here many church fathers have hurt us.But we do not read it the same way like many Jews does.And its not scripture but a comment on it.If you dont need a comment on scripture good for you,but I would say many church fathers are more anti Jesus then most jews

Every anti- movment or protestant movement becomes blind.Today the protestant church forget basic scripture.

When your not christian ,they say,don`t read the bibel.When you become christian ,some say only read the bibel.And if your in some churches they say only read the new testament and in some churches, only read Paul ,because Jesus was talking to the Jews and not us gentiles.

To say that everything in the Talmud is wrong is like to say that everyone that is not christian,all they say is wrong.They search to understand the same scripture as we ,they just do not agree with the great rabbis that form the new testament,the great rabbi Jesus and priest,the living image of God and son of God and later in rabbi Sheoul(known as Paul) who gives light to the scripture or old testament

(I would like to add there are many Rabbis in israel,great jews,leaders,understand scripture,kabbalah,talmud and son on.They know Jesus is the Messiah.But they don`t want to say it because it will destroy there lives inside there community.

Eagel

13:33

@Flimzy Is it expensive to live in holland,food and stuff?

Flimzy

@Eagel I suppose that's relative. It's more expensive than living in Mexico. About the same as living in Wichita, Kansas.

Eagel

@Flimzy Well I would say low price country then in Europe.Bread in Scandinavia can cost 5 dollars.

@Flimzy Have you been to many European countrys?

Flimzy

Yes.

Eagel

Who do you think is the "best"?

Crazy question, but more like.. nice people,nice price,good resturants,city,nature and so on.

Flimzy

I don't understand your question.

Which country do I think is best?

Eagel

13:47

Your favourite?

Flimzy

My favorite country is probably Mexico.

Eagel

I was thinking in Europe,but OK

Flimzy

My favorite European country... I don't know

In general, I don't have favorite countries.

I have favorite things about countries.

Eagel

I was thinking about a cheap way to travel around europe. Live at a friends house is smart,but I don`t know people all over europe.Would be cool to travel anyway.But everywhere is expensive now

Flimzy

Traveling isn't expensive.

The way I travel, it's usually cheaper than staying home.

Eagel

13:55

How do you travel?

Flimzy

Smartly. I don't take packaged tours. I don't stay in expensive hotels, or go to expensive restaurants.

Eagel

I love expensive resturants and culture,best things about Europe,but if your not rich,you can`t live like that for a loong time

Flimzy

I love culture.

But you don't learn about culture by going to expensive restaurants.

You learn about culture by meeting people.

Eagel

food is also culture,i have eaten to many hamburgers in my life

Flimzy

Sure, but you don't need to spend a lot of money on food to experience the culture of food.

In fact, the most cultural food is usually the cheapest.

Eagel

14:09

Well just saying,If you travel up north,everything is expensive.Food ,hotels,whatever

Eagel

14:20

@Flimzy What do you think about the American dream?Become rich and great.Become a Star.Is that a good dream or does it make you crazy.Is it a "christian" dream?

Flimzy

Well first, I'd say you've completely mis-characterized the "American dream"

Eagel

oh?

What is the American Dream?
The term "American Dream" first was used by the American historian James Truslow Adams in his book "The Epic of America" published in 19311. At that time the United States were suffering under the Great Depression2. Adams used the term to describe the complex beliefs, religious promises and political and social expectations.

@Flimzy I just read this: "The American Dream" has become a widespread term to describe the American Way of Life3 in general, but it is by far not that easy." The American Dream" always has something individual. That is, why till today no on…

Flimzy

To distill the "American dream" to a sentence, I'd say it is: The dream of rising above the level of individual or familial economic sustainability.

It's not about being rich or famous. It's about not being a slave to the 9-5.

It's about having the freedom to go on vacation if you want to. The freedom to choose who you marry. The freedom to choose which neighborhood you live in.

Eagel

And what do you think that looks like?

Flimzy

What do I think what looks like?

Going on vacation?

Eagel

14:29

I did not read the last part

it came later on my screen

I read "9-5"And then my comment

Flimzy

ah

Eagel

interesting how we look at freedom,everyone has there way.But in anyway or anykind of freedom of life or dream ,there must be responsibility and understanding.

Lee Woofenden

14:57

@Eagel Is the Talmud online? Can you post a link here to where this story about the Temple doors opening up is told? I would be interested to read it. Thanks.

@Eagel Part of the American Dream is being responsible for oneself, and able to support oneself through one's own efforts, and having the satisfaction of doing something in life that is uniquely one's own, and not dependent upon charity or beholden to government entities. That dream has gotten weaker here in recent decades as government has grown steadily bigger and more pervasive in American life. But it is still the aspiration of many Americans, both American-born and immigrant.

Eagel

15:42

@LeeWoofenden I don`t know the talmud as well as the bibel.I this i have just heard,But If you want to see Jesus in the talmud you should listen to the Messianic Jews.They see stuff we ""other" christians do not see,because the culture we have is not the same as the biblical "hebrew culture"

@LeeWoofenden I think Mark Biltz was(el shaddai ministries) talking about it.The man has alot of knowledge about the talmud and where Jesus is in it

WHat is major interesting Is that Christianity comes from the jews and We think the only humans have a soul,in judaism everything has a soul! Where did the soul of the rest of the universe go? Why did christianity change that?

@LeeWoofenden Much of the Talmud is online,maybe all of it.

@LeeWoofenden chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/692875/jewish/…

@LeeWoofenden This site is of major value on many topics

Flimzy

17:00

My American dream is to buy cheap clothes on Amazon.com whenever I visit the USA. :P

Eagel

@LeeWoofenden I forgot that in the conversation we where talking about repentance:,i forgot to talk about the month Elul,rosh hashana to yom kippur,where the jews have faith in that God makes it easyer to repent,the heavens gates are open,just like a gift to help us. A season for repenting.The sun and moon are created for seasons.Christians never talk about this stuff.

Lee Woofenden

@Eagel Some Christians never talk about this stuff. But growing up in the Swedenborgian Church, I was taught the Old Testament in Sunday School just as much as the New Testament, if not more (since the Old Testament is longer). I actually did learn about the Day of Atonement and its spiritual meaning from a Christian perspective.

@Flimzy Is clothing expensive in the Netherlands?

Flimzy

@LeeWoofenden Compared to the US, I think clothes are expensive in the entire world.

Lee Woofenden

@Eagel Believe it or not, we even studied Leviticus, though certainly not at the level of detail with which it is studied in Judaism.

@Flimzy And yet, an awful lot of the clothing sold in the U.S. is made overseas.

Flimzy

As a small point of comparison, normal price for a pair of Levi 501s in .nl is €100. In the US, list price is $60.

@LeeWoofenden Right. But import laws vary drastically. Most other countries have import laws meant to protect local workers. The US has import laws meant to protect wealthy owners of manufacturing companies.

Lee Woofenden

17:07

@Flimzy And then, once it's been used here, a lot of it is bundled up into bales and sent to third world countries as aid to those countries. We see pictures of African kids wearing well-worn T-shirts with American slogans on them.

Flimzy

@LeeWoofenden Yes. It's a sad irony.

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy Perhaps that's what those laws are meant to do politically. But they do keep the price of clothing down here, which is not all bad.

Eagel

@LeeWoofenden And that is interesting ,because they say That the day of atonement,atone for the sins agains men and NOT the sins against God. Jesus atone for the sins against God.So we have peace with God.But the sins against men we need to repent of and so on.Very interesting

.But I want to study it more.Jesus says leave you offer at the altar if you have anything against someone. I HAVE a feeling that the preaching in general says:Jesus have taken all sins but you still need to be nice,because if you love God ,you are nice to others.Thats true,but not true in a way,very unclear

Flimzy

@LeeWoofenden It's great for consumers... But consumption is only half of the picture, when it comes to a healthy economy.

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy Personally, I believe there should be a modest flat tariff on all imports that has nothing to do with protectionism or favoring imports or exports, but simply is a sensible way of funding the federal government, one of whose legitimate functions is international relations. So it makes sense to me that international trade should help pay for it.

@Flimzy Well . . . I'm not aboard the protectionism and xenophobia train. When manufacturing jobs go overseas, it helps develop the economies of economically disadvantaged countries. And though there are horror stories, there were plenty of horror stories in the earlier development of the U.S. economy also.

Flimzy

17:13

@LeeWoofenden I don't think a flat import tariff is probably a good idea. I think imposing higher tariffs on certain goods makes perfect sense.

Eagel

@LeeWoofenden Hey Lee I asked the question on the MI Yodeya chat,because I mostly use that site.Here is The door answer from the Talmud:books.google.co.il/…

Lee Woofenden

Eventually, I hope, the various countries of the world will reach a much more level economic playing field simply by jobs going to where labor is cheaper until those economies are developed to a first-world level.

Flimzy

@LeeWoofenden Yes, there is that... Americans can afford to help foreign countries economies. But the harm goes both ways. Thanks to NAFTA, for instance, a huge number of Mexican corn farmers have gone bankrupt, because Mexico can no longer charge import tariffs on US corn. And due to US ethanol subsidies, US corn is far cheaper than fair market value.

Which in turn feeds the illegal immigration problem in the US... sigh

@LeeWoofenden For that to happen universally, the labor and economic laws across the world will have to be roughly equivalent. That's not likely to happen any time soon. (Unless a new dictator succeeds where Hitler failed... but that won't make things better... just "the same")

Lee Woofenden

@Eagel Fascinating. Thanks! From a Swedenborgian perspective, the world did go through a major spiritual transition at the time of Christ, and Judaism went through a major transition as part of that. Today, Judaism and Christianity are more like each other than Judaism is like the ancient Judaism of Temple times, when sacrificial worship in the Temple was the center of Jewish life and practice.

@Flimzy I'm opposed to government subsidies of all kinds. The intention might be good, but there are always destructive unintended consequences as the market is distorted and people are hurt as a result.

@Flimzy Another disastrous form of government "help" has been massive shipments of free or cheap American foodstuffs to third world countries. Once again, the intention is good. Unfortunately, it puts the local farmers out of business, and makes those countries even less able to feed themselves.

A much better form of American help is the micro-loans and micro-grants that many private charities are now doing to help the locals set up their own farms and businesses so that their economies can develop in a healthy and home-grown manner.

Flimzy

@LeeWoofenden I generally oppose all forms of government subsidies, as well. I say generally, because I'm not willing to say with certainty that there's never a time when a government subsidy might be appropriate.

@LeeWoofenden I question the value of micro-finance. It's been a few years since I looked into it, but at the time I could find no evidence that micro-finance actually helps end poverty. If you have some updated information that suggests it does, I'd love to see it!

Lee Woofenden

17:21

@Flimzy No, all world governments are not going to sing Kum-Ba-Yah together and magically make all their economic laws fair and equal across the board. But I believe that the stronger economies can make the needed changes unilaterally, even if it means some economic pain, in order to move the world in the right direction.

Eagel

@Flimzy@LeeWoofenden In scandinavia .The government subsidy is a normal part of life,almost everyone has it.The good thing about it is free education,almost free healthcare

Flimzy

I find it a bit odd/ironic that too much debt is considered the bane of American economics, but the savior of the developing world. Perhaps there's a logical explanation for this difference, but my seeking has yet to find it.

And now, I must go... time to go to the cinema with my wife. I'll be back in a few hours.

Lee Woofenden

@Flimzy It's not an area of special study for me. But I've read articles from time to time about private charities that provide micro-loans to small farmers and businesspeople in third world countries, and what they were able to achieve with a little help. It's not a cure-all. But I do believe it's a constructive part of the overall puzzle.

@Flimzy Enjoy the movie!

Flimzy

@LeeWoofenden I've read many anecdotes that suggest it's useful. But actual studies on a broader scale I have yet to find.

Eagel

Stupid thing in America I think is that you should pay a fortune for education,and a doctor,these things everyone should have !

Lee Woofenden

17:27

@Eagel Before the U.S. state and federal governments moved heavily into providing education a century or so ago, there actually was a fairly well-developed system of free and low-cost education in many parts of the country, mostly provided by various church organizations. However, competition from free government schools drove most free and low-cost private schools out of business.

My own church, as small as it was, used to support a number of free and low-cost schools in areas where we had churches. All of them are gone now.

Our schools were open to the public, not just for our own members' children.

Eagel

@LeeWoofenden This is interesting:crivoice.org/calendar.html There are seasons for everything,when to sow and give,blessings and so on. This might be a great blessing

@LeeWoofenden Of the half-tribe of Manasseh 18,000, who were designated by name to come and make David king. 32Of the sons of Issachar, men who understood the times, with knowledge of what Israel should do, their chiefs were two hundred; and all their kinsmen were at their command. (to know the times can be a blessing)

@LeeWoofenden Jesus says why do you not know the signs of the times,just after he talked about The heaven and how they knew when the rain came and then He said hypocrites

Flimzy

20:54

@LeeWoofenden I remember reading years ago (don't know references at this late date) that one of the reasons a public school system was so popular in the US, was to compel Catholics school children to attend schools run by protestants, as an indoctrination method.

MATHEMETICIAN

it's fine flimzy, i'm done

good nighy

Flimzy

@MATHEMETICIAN I really am interested in helping you form your questions.

I feel like at every turn you're arguing, and trying to prove how obstinate you can be.

If that's your goal, I guess I'll just vote to close your questions, instead of offering commentary on how to improve.

Mr. Bultitude

21:16

@Flimzy When you put it that way, I have a couple reactions: 1) That's not how I've heard it formulated in the past, but I think you're exactly right. 2) I've always thought that I wanted to live my life "in rebuke of the American dream" and that I was not captive to it, but I think I'm just as captive to it as my neighbors.

Flimzy

@Mr.Bultitude Heh... I'm surprised how much I've been asked about the "American dream" lately. It's actually come up more than twice in casual conversation with people at work or other social contexts. I guess I've been forced, therefore, to think about it more than I have in the past.

I'm not sure that I think the American dream is in need of rebuke. I don't think it's evil, per se. I think it's just the wrong focus.

Mr. Bultitude

21:40

@Flimzy I think I could have included that as a third reaction. That maybe it's not as bad as I thought it was, but still worthy of reflection.

@Flimzy Is it Dutch people who've asked about it?

Flimzy

@Mr.Bultitude Most recently it was a guy from the UK, actually... who's now living in the Netherlands.

His precise question was "Is the American dream dead?"

I think I settled on "It's mostly dead for people born in America, but for immigrants, it's not." That is to say, upward (economic) mobility, is very difficult for people born into American culture. But for transplants, its easier.

But that was just an off-the-cuff answer, to satisfy a curious onlooker, more than to really examine the situation :P

Mr. Bultitude

@Flimzy Fascinating nonetheless.

Flimzy

21:55

Well I'm off to bed.

g'nite

Eagel

22:06

I have just made a Pizza,im out

Does Elisha speak?

0

Q: Should [lucifer] really be a synonym of [satan]?

I realize that in popular culture, Satan, Lucifer, and The Devil are synonyms, but on a more theological level, they have distinct meanings, which may overlap to varying degrees, and in some belief systems, aren't even synonymous at all. Is it appropriate that the tags then are synonymous? I no...

curiousdannii

23:45

@Eagel Christians don't talk about that stuff because it isn't Biblical. The idea that your level of blessings are set for the year based on prior behaviour? That's karma, not the Biblical description of our God who loves to bless us, who sends rain on the just and unjust.

@Eagel What God did to make it easy to repent was to send his own son to us, to show us the error of our ways, and to carry our burdens. What he did to make it easy to repent is to send his spirit to us, to live and work within us, transforming us. If you focus on what Judaism teaches you will miss the wonderful truths of the Bible.

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