The Upper Room

@sidran32 it sort of is an oxymoron, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist...

Q: Is Christian mysticism an oxymoron or is it a legitimate path for a Christian?

I know there are many on both sides of the fence. So question here we go :P

0

I've been in a debate online with another Christian of a different tradition (I'm Catholic, he is Baptist, I think) regarding mysticism, specifically Christian mysticism. He stated that mysticism is inherently pagan and non-Christian, and attempts to use the term Christian mysticism are essential...

We'll see. :P First question ever posted...

Not sure about the tags though...

Is that number under my avatar and name to the left the sum total rep across all SE sites?

1:41 AM

@sidran32 'tis

Aha

@waxeagle Was curious because I absolutely don't have 2.6k rep on any site individually :P

yeah. I don't have
whatever
it
says
under

my name...

XD

my max is a bit under 3500 on RPG.SE

I'm only truly active here and on SU. SU has 1.5k or something, and it's only because I happened to write one good answer on a question that got on the front page, and got tons of votes...

Not sure if it's because it was some obscure knowledge (though it shouldn't be). Wasn't even drawing from my computer body of knowledge XD

1:44 AM

@sidran32 gotcha....what question was it?

A: Purpose of a 'mystery key' on IBM PC 3270 keyboard

@waxeagle This one...

118

I do know the symbol on the bottom right key as being the symbol typically used when proofreading written documents. It is a delete. When you write that over a letter or word in a paper, it indicates that it is unneeded and should be removed. Seeing as how this is an older keyboard, the users of ...

I was honestly surprised it got so many votes. :P

@sidran32 nice. my best question anywhere has 11 upvotes...

My next one after that has only 9 upvotes... :P

ooh actually its 12 :). my prayer question here must have gotten another vote...

Nice :P

2:04 AM

@Caleb As far as those scriptures I would say that matter is eternal (cannot be created) and Adam and Eve were organized from matter into physical beings. Also we believe that there are two parts to an 'individual' mainly the physical being which is mortal and can become immortal through resurrection and the spiritual being which is eternal.

@KronoS What about those of us who believe that all souls are immortal?

doesn't know what the debate was about

@waxeagle what is your definition of soul?

Physics clearly shows that matter is not eternal... in the sense that matter can be converted into energy, and vice versa.

wasn't so much a debate but rather a clarification of beliefs

Although if you mean matter/energy as a single sort of thing... then perhaps an argument can be made that those are eternal

2:07 AM

@KronoS the being of a person that is attached to a body while on earth. Its the part of us that continues after we have died. Its also what makes us different from animals.

@Flimzy pretty sure thats a logical extension of the concept.

it also might be the image of God that is imparted to us, but I'm not clear on that.

@waxeagle Then would it be different than our "spirit" (I know, can of worms...)

@waxeagle so your definition of 'soul' would be considered the same as my 'spiritual body'

so yes that is eternal

I'm not entirely sure. It would make sense if we are tri-part beings (spirit, soul, body), but I'm not sold on that particular construct being useful.

@Flimzy in essence that's the basic idea... I guess... my assumption is that we haven't dicovered everything about the physical world, and eventually when we get down to it, then we'll see that there's something there that eternal

no. I think a spiritual body is actually a corporeal entity. We get those after the renewal.

2:10 AM

@waxeagle I'm tempted to bring up a "animals don't have souls" debate right now...

@waxeagle I see it as body+spirit = soul

@KronoS Is that a scripturally sound definition? I've never seen anyone use "soul" like that.

brb. I have to restart my machine. I look forward to continuing this in a minute.

I think it also may discount our bodily reality (that series on Theology of the Body actually goes into interesting detail regarding "angelism vs animalism")

Gah... I'm tired. Why am I doing this right now? :P

@sidran32 Here's a list of scriptures found with the definition... I'm talking about term (2) there

lds.org/scriptures/gs/soul?lang=eng

2:14 AM

Hmm

They all come from LDS-only scripture though?

@Flimzy It seems so

@KronoS Those supporting passages come from LDS only books.

@Flimzy I would say so... that's why it appears to be exclusive to the LDS doctrine

One thing, I did not realize that was an element of LDS doctrine. Interesting.

@sidran32 what do you mean?

2:18 AM

@KronoS I mean that definition of "soul" is not something I've found elsewhere, and since the supporting passages appear to be LDS-only (book of Mormon, right?), it would be an element of LDS doctrine (or is this your interpretation?).

It's just one element of LDS doctrine that i hadn't heard of before, so I find that interesting. :P

@sidran32 oh got it :P Yes I believe it is doctrine but let me make sure of that first... Also half of the passages came from the Book of Mormon, and the other half the Doctrine and Covenants

@KronoS Is the Doctrine and Convenants separate from the Old and New Testament too? Or is it a subset of it, categorized with that name?

@sidran32 I think it's sort of like the Catechism of the LDS church

@Flimzy Ah, got it.

In that it explains the doctrines the church holds to, as backed by scripture

2:21 AM

@Flimzy Right, us Catholics have a Catechism too, so I know what they are. :P

@sidran32 the Doctrine and Covenants is a collection of revalations from modern day prophets (mainly Joesph Smith)

Maybe I was wrong then :)

@KronoS Ah, I see. Why would that not be included in your Bible?

It does contain prophetic writings, after all, in the Old Testament, anyway.

o_O not sure I understand @sidran32... the D&C, BofM, New and Old Testament are considered to be the canonized scripture....

@KronoS I c. Most protestant traditions go Spirit, Soul, Body or Soul, Body. I hadn't seen spirit+body = soul.

2:26 AM

Also I can't currently find (but will continue to look) that it's official doctrine with body+sprit = soul so let's take that as my opinion until I can fully back it up

@KronoS I guess that makes sense but if he's a prophet, like Moses was a prophet, or Elijah was a prophet, I'm curious why that wouldn't mean candidacy for scripture. Though this goes into another general question I guess...

Since we don't often have modern day stuff go into the Bible anyway, even if it is good.

@KronoS That's cool.

@sidran32 since we believe in modern day revlation and prophets our canonized scripture is considered to be the holy scriptures (old and new testament, BofM, and D&C) as well as the revelation of the current prophet

so right now Thomas S. Monson

I'm now starting to wonder if it's because while the apostles' writings got into the New Testament as that was the establishment of the Christian church at the time, and of course they were 1st generation Christians, the anno domini period sees that every member of the church has direct communion with God and therefore may be a prophet in their own right, if God desires it, so special differentiation or scriptural inclusion may be unnecessary and likely lead to a lot of duplication...

Ah, @KronoS. I didn't know there was a concept of the "current prophet" either... as you can see, I have interacted little with Mormons. :P Only know some of the stories from the BoM.

@sidran32 I don't understand fully... you're saying that since the first apostles every member is considered a 'prophet'?

Interestingly, when I went to Washington D.C. a couple years ago, they had a Bible from the Gideons in there, and a Book of Mormon, which was a first for me. :P

@KronoS Prophesy is a spiritual gift that any Christian is able to receive, is what I mean.

2:31 AM

@sidran32 Well now you know one! You can ask anything anytime... I've heard it all :)

@KronoS Indeed. :P Though I've met others, I never really talked with them before.

@sidran32 it was probably a Marriott hotel (they're owned by a mormon)

Just sort of ran by them on forums :P

@KronoS It was! That makes sense. I didn't know that. :o

But anyways, this concept of prophets as it relates to spiritual gifts in the modern church is now an interesting topic I must ponder some more...

@sidran32 AH! I see what you mean... we believe that every individual can receive revelation however we also believe that there is a need to receive revelation for the entire church

@KronoS Aha, I see. That's similar, but has a very slight difference... interesting.

2:35 AM

what is it that you believe?

Us Catholics have a Pope, who can speak ex cathedra, but it's not really the same as having special revelation for the entire church, since it's more just used for clarifications and isn't much different than what any other church members could do, though of course lay people aren't part of the magisterium so we don't have the same teaching authority.

I suppose the conduit is different... instead of having one person, it can be any person (for us), but filtered through the magisterium.

Or, passed down... not sure how to word that correctly.

so you don't believe in new modern revelation? simply clarification of the scriptures?

@KronoS that is a belief very few traditions embrace.

I believe that any modern revelation would be clarification, except for certain specific revelations that may be useful for particular people (like the three secrets of Fatima, or anything we gain via prayer). But nothing radically new.

we don't really have anything radically new... just more tailored toward modern day problems...

2:40 AM

At least, nothing radically new that would be a teaching for the Church as a whole.

@KronoS Ah, see, we believe that what we have is capable of being tailored towards modern day problems, but we just have to figure out how it applies. Often this means going more to the heart of the message and picking out the deeper meanings as opposed to just reading the surface.

Most of the time, it does. Nothing is new under the sun, as they say. :P

Or, I would say, all of the time (in my opinion). :P

(Interestingly, "Nothing is new under the sun" comes out of the Bible: Ecclesiastes 1:9 -- random interesting tidbit)

@sidran32 Whoa! didn't know that...

@KronoS Lots of things like that out there. Much more than most people realize. :P Like the term "scapegoat"...

on another topic... what's your belief on the priesthood?

(Leviticus 16:8 -- "scapegoat")

@KronoS What about the priesthood? Broad topic. :P

I believe in priesthood!

2:45 AM

@Flimzy Me too! :P

@sidran32 Well mainly does all (male) individuals have the ability to hold it?

All Christians are priests.

Which probably disagrees with both Catholics and LDS

but that's the view most/all protestants hold

Although there's still a distinction between that concept of "priesthood," and which Christians ought to be in a leadership or teaching position over others.

Many protestants believe women should never teach men

@KronoS Sure, the Bible does say that all Christians are priests in a sense (if I recall correctly...), though Catholic priests hold a different office in the sense that they are considered priests as was Melchizedek (if I interpret the prayer they state at ordination, correctly). They are like the modern day apostles, as they are given the authority to forgive sins in Jesus' name and the like. They are supposed to imitate Christ.

@Flimzy leadership and teaching position are held by both men and women, but the actual priesthood is different in our view

I'm probably explaining this horribly... sorry :P

2:50 AM

@sidran32: Aren't all Christians supposed to imitate Christ? :)

That's kind of what the word "Christian" means, isn't it? :)

@Flimzy Yes, though it's a different office. Like I said, horrible explanation. :P

Truth be told, it'd probably be better for me to link a website or something (but I'd have to find one). I'm not a priest so it's not a topic I've researched as in depth as others. :P

hehe, not that bad

@sidran32 no it's fine... it takes a lifetime to even somewhat become an expert in these things.. there's no way to understand and be able to expain it all

@KronoS Well, we can't all be experts in everything, so we focus on what's necessary and go from there. :P

In general, Catholics and protestants would agree with that, although they use different terminology, and they have slightly different criteria

I believe 1 Timothy talks about some of the criteria for a "spiritual leader/teacher"

and other places do, too.

2:51 AM

@Flimzy Catholic priests and Protestant ministers are similar but different, ya.

I think both Catholics and Protestants agree in the "priesthood of all believers"...

Ya.

@Flimzy Ah! I think you're talking about the traits of a good 'bishop' to be specific

but it goes for everyone ;)

In the OT, a priest was the only way for normal people to "be in touch with God"

After Pentecost, the Holy Spirit indwells all Christians...

thus the "priesthood of all believers"

Catholic priests are able to offer the sacraments, which is their main difference from a lay person (in most cases... there are criteria where a lay person may give someone the sacrament of baptism and the like, for instance)

2:53 AM

There's no longer a need for an intermediary

of course Catholics hold a slightly different view than protestants...

since they still use Priests for confessions, etc

Protestants still agree it's good to confess sins to each other... there's a verse that says that, I don't recall the reference. But protestants don't hold to the idea that they must be confessed to a Priest

Yes, though there also is a reconciliation by intent... so there's no real gotchas.

And although Protestants agree with confession of sin... they often don't do it.

So that's one thing I appreciate about Catholics... even though I don't agree that confessing to a priest is necessary... confessing to someone is a good idea

And Catholics do that more than protestants :)

@Flimzy It is a wonderful thing to have. :)

Anyway... the point is... the "priesthood of all believers" is different than saying who should hold the title of "Priest" (which is really quite a separate matter all together)

Interesting sidenote, I remember back when I was younger on an overnight retreat at a friend's Baptist church, they did a thing where they had a wooden cross and we'd "nail" our sins (written on notecards) to the cross, sort of a symbolic confession.

Symbolizing how Jesus took on our sins in His sacrifice. It was neat.

2:56 AM

Or in some Protestant churches, they're called a Pastor or Minister instead of a Priest

Yup.

@sidran32: I've participated in that sort of thing before, too.

@Flimzy which I think is why a lot of traditions shy from the word priest and use pastor instead

@sidran32: It's very meaningful for some people

@waxeagle: Very likely

@Flimzy I can see why it would be.

2:57 AM

also pastor has a latin root in shepherd which is a common metaphor in the Bible.

@Flimzy What particular brand of Protestantism are you, if I may ask?

@sidran32: Well, I'm a member of a Mennonite Brethren church in the U.S. But right now I live in Mexico, and attend a Presbyterian church.

@Flimzy Aha. I've heard of the Mennonites, but don't know much about them either. Neat. :P

On the previous topic of Christian mysticism... I think my argument with my friend is locked in a stalemate. I clearly define something and he argues that it's wrong because it's something completely different than I defined. I see no progress.

@Flimzy no joke, do you know the Trotters? They are American missionaries working Guadelejara with the NPC of Mexico...

Somewhat exasperating thing is that he's using it as a preaching moment, too. Calling me out, as it were, though I think he's incorrect in assuming that I'm at all like what he's preaching against...

3:06 AM

@waxeagle: No, don't think I know them. What is NPC?

@Flimzy National Pres Church...

Ah

yeah, don't think I know them

I'm PCA and grew up in a church that supported them...

saw you were in Guadelejarra and attended as prez church and started to wonder..

We probably know some of the same people :)

Be back in a sec...

3:08 AM

@Flimzy likely...the world gets small quick if you get in the right circles

I went to a PCA college and you wouldn't believe the number of people I ran into at school that I had met/known at a previous point in my life growing up in a PCA church then being an MK...

Back. And I'm tired, so I think I'm gonna go. Night all.

PCA @waxeagle? Presbyterian Church USA, right?

@studiohack no. Presbyterian Chruch of America. That one is PCUSA...slightly different (PCA split in the 60s or 70s I think)

ah, confused for a sec @waxeagle - my grandfather is an evangelist for the Presbyterians, PCUSA

3:23 AM

@studiohack cool.

Christian and Missionary Alliance

@waxeagle personally, I'm Christian and Missionary Alliance

The Christian and Missionary Alliance (C&MA) is an evangelical Protestant denomination within Christianity. Founded by Rev. Albert Benjamin Simpson in 1887, the Christian & Missionary Alliance did not start off as a denomination, but rather began as two distinct parachurch organizations: The Christian Alliance which focused on the pursuit and promotion of the Higher Christian life and The Evangelical Missionary Alliance, which focused on mobilizing "consecrated" Christians in the work of foreign missionary efforts. These two groups amalgamated in 1897 to form The Christian and Missionar...

@studiohack Cool. We spent a bit of time going to one of those in Costa Rica.

@waxeagle yeah? how was that?

@studiohack It was good. Fairly small church, but friendly and there were a few english speakers in the congregation. We were in country learning Spanish so I wasn't entirely sure what was going on all the time :).

@waxeagle I know the feeling very well :) (of not knowing what's going on all the time)

7:04 AM

@KronoS No matter can be created? So Mormons don't believe in ex-nihilo at all? If all mater is eternal and just got assembled by God into various shapes, in what sense is God a "creator" at all? And doesn't that elevate matter to a plane equal with God himself -- if matter exists outside of God, is likewise eternal, etc?

@Caleb we don't believe ex-nihilo that's for sure... as far as placing matter on the same plane as god, that's not exactly right... they both may be eternal (having no beginning or end, but God is definitely different... he's eternal, all knowing, and all powerfull

8:23 AM

@Caleb, you think the people i.e. 10k BC had knowledge of your christian god?

11:39 AM

@BeatMe Yes absolutely. For as long as there have been men (since Adam) there has been a knowledge of the God we worship today.

Q: What drives Christians to condemn homosexuality / gay marriage?

12:47 PM

@waxeagle @Caleb @mods The question bellow. Should it be closed or just edited heavily?

2

Here is a little background info. I'm 17 years old, and was raised a Latter Day Saint. I'm gay and ever since I can remember I had liked boys and would have crushes on boys. I was always a good kid. My GPA (even today) is a 4.0, I would pray every night, and I would attend church every Sunday. I ...

bible sin god sexuality marriage

and of course most people are getting ready for church ...

1:27 PM

@CRoss This looks like a perfect example of what the concern was here: meta.christianity.stackexchange.com/q/255/30

off to church myself

@CRoss Just got back myself.

@CRoss Possibly with a rewrite for just the question it could be a matter of a duplicate with one of the other questions like "does the bible say homosexuality is a sin", but I think it needs to be closed pronto in its current form.

1:39 PM

@Caleb yeah, we should probably build a collection of resources to comment and insta-close questions like this.

@CRoss took a look and vtc'd it. Like Caleb said with some work it could be a dupe, but its not one we should be comfortable fielding. Going to link to hope line unless there is somewhere better.

It's getting replies already.

@dori @Shog9 @MarcGravell anybody here to do a quick close?

Jenny's comment there is also disconcerting.

@Caleb agreed. But she is a troll.

1:56 PM

@waxeagle Hmm, seems you're right. Somehow I missed that. There is so much content going by it's hard to keep track of everybody.

In other news, first downvote on this today. I'm actually surprised, I expected to get beat up a lot worse for sticking my neck out there.

I'm meant what I said, but there is also a sense in which it was a trial. I'm still trying to get my head around what needs to go into POV/representation disclaimers in posts. The general lack of them is driving me crazy but I'm not entirely sure how to recommend people do it.

2:09 PM

@Caleb she isn't too awful (i.e. not bannable as of yet), but she obviously isn't here to learn more about her faith...

Q: Can we stop calling each other by religious view?

2:50 PM

Hey @waxeagle did you know we have our own deity all to ourselves?

I have no idea what do with that. Flag it? Ignore it? Quote half of İsaiah about the Majesty of the living God so as to render no confusion about who is deity and that he belongs to no-one?

Also I'm not the only one working on POV posts for meta:

-1

I don't think it's appropriate to refer to each other as Atheist, Christian, Secular Humanist, Creationist, etc. The site is about Christianity, and question about this religion are acceptable (and should have exactly the same answers), no matter what the author believes. Also for answers--they...

discussion

@Caleb trippy....

@Caleb best to just ignore. Maybe at most a comment about not realizing us calvinist believed in a different god...

3:12 PM

You don't think the book of Isaiah would fit in the comment box? <ye of little faith>

@Caleb lol. 500 chars at a time :)

it'd be like twitter, just almost 3 times as fast

Let's see, 183695 characters (ESV text, no verse numbers) would be 367 plus a few for not splitting a word across messages, so roughly 375 comments.

@Caleb sounds like a plan :). Wonder how many comments you would get to before some kind of ban would kick in...

3:33 PM

I'm sure somewhere there is a troll that knows the answer to that question -- but they are frozen in time.

Q: How to discover mistakes in faith?

3:43 PM

0

There are many possibilities how to "spoil" the faith like assumptions, prejudices, misinterpretation, unintentional deception, projecting wishes... How to discover it?

faith

? huh?

4:10 PM

@waxeagle Come to think of it, I don't know. It's possible I had something specific in mind already when I figured up the answer box because looking at the question it's neither well written nor precise enough to catch more than a general drift.

Shog9

@Caleb Well, that post is closed, and Jenny is suspended. Now I have places to be, so if it blows up while I'm gone... Have fun!

@Shog9 Thanks man. Sunday morning seems to be a great time for trolls and off-topicers to get their two cents out there.

4:42 PM

@Caleb yeah, my wife and I were talking about that this morning

we've already taken to calling it "Troll Time"

@CRoss Things were pretty quiet around here after you took off :)

I see a couple of questions/answer/comment threads where the original post and first ten or so comments are atheists and trolls making hay with each other while the sun ~~shines~~ doesn't shine.

@Caleb with each other is the interesting part ...

5:03 PM

@waxeagle: I guess this explains my other comment earlier but there must be a point of diminishing return for bold emphasis.

@Caleb blinks ...I think you may be right. :P

Actually reminds me of those web pages by random evangelical people that mix italics, bold, colors, and a variety of font sizes...and as such, they're annoying to read. >.>

@ElendiaStarman Evangelicals are hardly the only guilty party in the world of bad web typography.

@Caleb Yes, but those are the only cases I've seen so far. I tend to trawl higher-quality web pages... :P

The OP is clearly passionate about his ideas, but I'm not sure where they come from. I just found a post of his that espouses the idea that God evolved into being loving. I've been around the block but that's a first to my ears.

5:20 PM

@Caleb ...wow, that's new to me too.

When just bolding doesn't cut it, copy and paste your answer to a few different quetsions

@Caleb [tag:shakes head] I kinda want to flag those, but what reason would I give...?

I don't know I'm considering that myself.

@caleb, you believe adam was the first human?

@BeatMe Yup.

And Even the first woman. Flesh and blood the both of them.

5:31 PM

you're a creationist?

Yes.

That word may or may not mean what you think it does, but it's as good a moniker as any at this point.

do you believe anything different than jonathan?

I thought he was the only creationist on this site

No, he just happens to be outspoken. And I haven't actually read all of Jonathan's posts on creation issues because I didn't have the time to keep up with everything. We mostly (but not always) agree on other theology issues. The few I did scan looked like I agreed with some points, didn't with others, and had no knowledge one way or another on some specific issues.

did you read our discussion related to the age of earth?

5:47 PM

In chat? No I think I remember one going down but I had other things to focus on and couldn't follow.

Frankly the amount of content on Christianity.SE in just two weeks is daunting.

am I a troll?

Yeah. I actually haven't read most of this chat since public beta began simply because of sheer amount.

(and little time :P )

@BeatMe ...I feel like if you have to ask that question, you probably aren't one. :P

@BeatMe I've learned there seem to be two kinds of trolls: those that have no self awareness at all and those that self-proclaim and take pride in their trollishness. Your question clearly falls outside of those two possible scopes, so I'm going with no.

ok, maybe you're interested talking about your faith tomorrow in the other room ;)

6:10 PM

I'd be happy to do that as time permits. I'll be a bit in and out this whole week but I won't be straying too far.

6:39 PM

@Caleb, did you really just compare homosexuality with cancer?

@BeatMe ref?

Q: What drives Christians to condemn homosexuality / gay marriage?

9

Here is a little background info. I'm 17 years old, and was raised a Latter Day Saint. I'm gay and ever since I can remember I have liked boys and would have crushes on boys. I was always a good kid. My GPA (even today) is a 4.0, I would pray every night, and I would attend church every Sunday. I...

bible sin god sexuality marriage

comment to the question

@BeatMe No, I compared the action of a doctor offering healing to someone who is sick with offering release for somebody who is in bondage.

he is in "bondage" because of your bible, thats offering help to someone i just kidnapped

@BeatMe But I wouldn't hesitate to make the other comparison either. A doctor who pretends his patients aren't sick does them no favors.

6:42 PM

so you believe it's really a sickness

i apologize beforehand, but do you even have a remote sense of your own morality?

@BeatMe Not any more than any other sin, and the same cancer that I am receiving treatment for. The most significant difference when it comes to homosexuality is people often want it validated rather than cured.

why would you have something cured thats defining you?

oh come on, i realls just can't believe it

if god came to your dream and told you to murder some people the next day because he wants to, would you blindly follow his command?

just because your god said that and he must have a reason for that?

@BeatMe The reason Christians put so much emphasis on the Gospel (Good news) is that the good news is set opposed to the BAD news. The bad news is that there is a standard that we ALL have fallen short of.

@BeatMe My God would not say that and I can verify that from his Word to me. Anything I saw in a dream would need to be checked against that.

CiscoIPPhone

God has told people to kill their sons before...

how can you say he wouldn't say that? he did already to isaac according to your bible

CiscoIPPhone

6:47 PM

Ah that's it, I was trying to remember the name.

and don't tell me he just wanted to test him and he wouldn't allow him to do it

No, Abraham was all ready to go through with it but he still trusted the promise that he had heard the same way from the same God that many offspring would come through that son. I don't think he knew how it was going to happen but he knew God wasn't a promise breaker.

'But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay [them] before me.' "Luke 19:27

And the way revelation works, we don't have to worry about God giving us anything contrary. How God communicated to Abraham pre-mosaic law AND pre-Christ was somewhat different than he communicates to us today. Its' not something we have to worry about.

there is no reason to debate if god would do that, I ask you what if

6:51 PM

@BeatMe .... is the end of a parable (clearly delineated as such in the text) that hints not at what God is telling men to do but what HE will do in the final judgement.

i asked you an easy question

would you do it or not

@BeatMe No you didn't, you asked an impossible contradiction. There is no need to hypothesize about what ifs when you have an unchanging God as a reference point. You might as well ask "what if God wok up one morning and decided to do something bad." Just not going to happen.

what if those people are going to commit a massaker? you can't know if something is right or wrong, as god is not completely understandable i thought ;)

CiscoIPPhone

I don't understand how it's an impossible contradiction, God himself commanded the destruction of entire cities in the Bible, so he could command you to kill people

@CiscoIPPhone Does not follow. The history of Israel and God's roll in it's wars (and actually a harder issue than the cities would be individuals sent on assassinations) and OT implementation of divine justice through men is way to big a topic for me to go into right now, my todo list is in pretty bad shape for the day already ... but I'm not going far so we can come back to this.

Or perhaps a specific question on the main site might be in order. Something like "Do we Christians today have any assurance that God won't send them on a random assasination mission?"

@BeatMe Not being able to completely understand God is no excuse for disregarding the bits he's been very clear about.

@CiscoIPPhone @BeatMe christianity.stackexchange.com/q/1373/30

8:01 PM

@Caleb This was sort of along the same lines. If you ask that question make sure it has a different angle. christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/544/…

ChaosGamer ΕΛ-Υ ēel-ū

8:18 PM

@Caleb you are talking to your self?

No, that was for cisco but I'd already pinged him once, that was just a follow up comment. The only way to connect a comment to something in the chat record is to reply to it, and when you do that it automatically pings yourself. It's just not quite smart enough.

ChaosGamer ΕΛ-Υ ēel-ū

8:30 PM

hmmm.... How about I ask for it in stack exchange meta? that would be a good feature request!

9:18 PM

@Caleb you're not supposed to reply yourself

@CRoss My shrink agrees.

@Caleb :-)

A: Add Markdown and/or OneBox support for BibleGateway

9:34 PM

Hi y'all!

I created a userscript that greatly simplifies copying Bible passages from BibleGateway.com

0

Userscript for generating Markdown from Biblegateway.com While we're waiting for a proper solution, I created a hacky userscript (my first ever). I've had it work on Firefox and Chrome. No warranty, etc. Download / Review source code The script inserts a textarea below the passage, looking so...

Please test if you feel like it, and upvote if you think it's useful, etc.

10:03 PM

@dancek Will do ... see my comment there.

@Caleb I first thought of a userscript embedded on Christianity.SE, too... but all the APIs I found looked like it'd be very hard to negotiate proper rights for using them

I think what I did will be legal in about any circumstances. A userscript here would be problematic with lots of use.

10:18 PM

I think there are ways we can do it, but the number of translations will be limited, that might be the hardest thing to manage. But I guess if you want something not provided you just have to do it yourself.

I'm going to keep going with the idea, but this is a great place to start.

BTW your text.replaces() don't seem to be working, not sure why at first glance.

And my brain is all foggy tonight ... not enough sleep for 2 weeks now, partly thanks to this site 'distraction'.

@Caleb well, I didn't test very thoroughly. works for me, I think...

@Caleb yeah, I reckon there are nice APIs for at least ESV and NET, but even of those ESV limits commercial use so the script couldn't be endorsed by SE.

and yeah, as long as it's not SE endorsed almost anything goes... you could just grab stuff from BibleGateway via XHR. I didn't do that because it would've been more difficult and I figured mostly you'll wanna search/preview first.

The API isn't a problem for any text we have the right to use and I can get my hands on ;)

@Caleb oh, if you mean there are <br />'s in the output, that's intentional.

@Caleb so you're setting up a server?

@dancek And font tags. I really think all html remnants should be cleaned up to make things easier to edit on the markdown side. You can use trailing double spaces on lines to act as a <br>

@Caleb trailing double spaces? didn't know that, I'll fix it... as for the font tags, I had them removed already but did it so that the content disappeared. Forgot to implement that correctly.

10:31 PM

@dancek Already wrote and host one :) The API returns plain or html formatted text in a json wrapper for verse or search queries in 8 or 9 versions. Most of those are Turkish translations though :)

@Caleb oh, nice :)

For my own purposes I was just going to add a "markdown" output version to that api formatted the way I liked.

Then later work on a plugin to use one of the other APIs out there for other versions ... or host an API that returns verses from SWORD modules specifically for the purpose.

But really my brain is threatening to kernel panic.

I think I spent too much effort feeding trolls today.

G'night all.