The Upper Room

Thomas Jennings

00:36

This site is endlessly frustrating. I mean, really, honestly, truly. Four downvotes! Well, six actually, adding the two from my other question! After doing everything in my power today to create two questions that would (after a run of unloved questions) make me look a little wiser. What kind of questions does this site like, well, when I go to Heaven (hopefully) that will be (along witht the meaning of life) among the great riddles finally solved! AAAAGH!

Sorry to sound of my rage here- I was going to post a question on Meta but I don't fancy days of hearing back about this. I'll go back to the blackboard, pick up the chalk, and try and work out why everything I thought was the right thing to do was the wrong thing to do...hrrrmmm... In the meantime, I don't blame those who downvote me (obviously- that would be absurd) but, just for tonight (I'll love it in the morning) if this site were a face, I'd be finding it very hard to not punch it...

Anonymous

I don't get this part of Christianity. On one hand, Christianity has this near-obsessive need to convert people to Christianity at the cost of bringing in false converts and hypocrites. So, it may be useful to keep the numbers down. On the other hand, Christianity seems to have a motive to conquer the world, attempting to reform everybody's souls to the "one true faith".

I haven't a clue how Christians manage to figure that one out. Should Christians make Christianity a religion solely for persons born into the religion and work on the spiritual needs of those individuals, helping them live fuller, meaningful lives? Or should Christians proselytize everyone on the planet regardless of the quality of the person?

Thomas Jennings

00:54

They should just love God and via doing so, do what He wants them to do. To play nice!

Anonymous

@ThomasJennings Are you Anglican?

Thomas Jennings

Yep.

Anonymous

@ThomasJennings High-church Anglican or low-church Anglican?

Thomas Jennings

No idea what either of those things mean- I'm still learning the ropes! I don't believe in converting people. if they ask for help finding God, I'd give it to them. But God/Christ calls His followers, I'm better advised heeding His call myself rather than pretending to be the sheperd.

What's your belief?

Anonymous

@ThomasJennings Although I can empathize with the feeling of rejection, I would like to comment on the nature of your questions on this SE. Your questions lately have been largely truth questions and opinion-based questions. This website is not catered to those types of questions, so I would suggest that you find an appropriate Christian website/forum. There are lots out there, so help yourself. It may be helpful to find a discussion forum for like-minded Anglicans, so they can help you grow in faith.

High church

The term "High Church" refers to beliefs and practices of ecclesiology, liturgy and theology, generally with an emphasis on formality and resistance to "modernisation". Although used in connection with various Christian traditions, the term originated in and has been principally associated with the Anglican tradition, where it describes Anglican churches using a number of ritual practices associated in the popular mind with Roman Catholicism. The term's corresponding counterpart is low church. Contemporary media discussing Anglican churches tend to prefer "evangelical" to "low church", a...

Low church

Low church is a term of distinction in the Church of England or other Anglican churches initially designed to be pejorative (derogatory). During the series of doctrinal and ecclesiastic challenges to the established church in the 17th century, commentators and others began to refer to those groups favouring the theology, worship and hierarchical structure of Anglicanism (such as the episcopate) as the truest form of Christianity as 'high church'. In contrast, by the early 18th century those theologians and politicians who sought more reform in the English church and a greater liberalis...

@ThomasJennings A Christian who does not convert people is an oxymoron, because a Christian, by essence, is supposed to preach the gospel. The means of preaching the gospel may vary, from actively preaching door-to-door (Jehovah's Witness style) to simply living a righteous, humble lifestyle (Orthodox Christian style).

Approaches to evangelism

Throughout history, Christians have used many different approaches to spread Christianity via the practice of evangelism. Christianity began with only a few different evangelical approaches, but over the years, many different forms of evangelism have been employed by various groups to spread the faith. Many of these forms of evangelism are often employed in only certain parts of the world by Christians in different geographical areas. In particular, most new approaches to evangelism today have arisen out of Europe or the United States, especially when new technologies are used for the effor...

@ThomasJennings By the way, how old are you? (Hope you don't mind my asking a personal question. Feel free to ignore.)

@ThomasJennings I am eclectic, deriving ideas, styles, and tastes from various sources. An example of my eclectic personality is that I recently recited the Hail Mary prayer and prayed it at my bedside, simply because I thought praying-at-the-bedside was one Christian habit that people would do in the movies.

Thomas Jennings

01:15

I'm 23. I don't actively attempt to convert people because 'Christians have used many different approaches' and I believe that only seekers are listeners in matters of faith. I would gladly speak of God to them. My most recent questions were deliberatly not truth or opinion-based. Yet so many downvotes! Sigh. Ah well.

Yes, I think I'm eclectic then. Or Lewisian, as most of my beliefs fit in with those of CS Lewis! I just really like his thinking on the matter...

Anonymous

@ThomasJennings Well, the Stack Exchange Network is really a Question-and-Answer website for experts, by experts. In order to compete with the experts, you have to write and research like an expert. It is common for experts to know the basic information, so it'd be a waste of time for them to discuss matters way below their areas of expertise. For starters, I highly recommend that you research your own faith background, Anglicanism.

@ThomasJennings Have you been confirmed in the Anglican church? If you've been baptized and confirmed in the Anglican church, then you may know some concepts of Anglican theology and practice.

@ThomasJennings C.S. Lewis is a devout Anglican. So, that means your theology is primarily Anglican. Great. You don't have to leave, since your beliefs fit perfectly within Anglicanism.

@ThomasJennings Are you affiliated with the Church of England?

Anonymous

01:52

@ThomasJennings Since you are Anglican, you may be interested in:

amazon.com/History-Global-Anglicanism-Introduction-Religion/dp/…

I am not really Lutheran, but I am interested in Lutheranism. So, I read this book:

amazon.com/A-History-Lutheranism-Second-Edition/dp/080069712X

fredsbend

07:51

5

Q: Types of questions, or template questions, that the community generally finds acceptable

I find that there are at least six types of questions that the community on Christianity.StackExchange finds acceptable for the site. These question types, if the few rules that accompany them are followed, almost always remain open and receive high quality answers. Christianity.StackExchange Pr...

20

Q: Newcomers: Be patient. You will get there if you follow our direction. Keep trying

To the newcomers: I am thrilled that you have come to this site. I am excited that you want to spend time contributing to this site, and even more so that you want to learn more about Christianity. The users like you make the content on this site and they are what make it fun. However, you may ...

discussion faq

If you want some personalized advice, meta is the right place to do it. I'll give you a little here in chat if you ask. That's up to you.

Thomas Jennings

11:26

@Anonymous yes, I was confirmed in the Anglican church

@fredsbend thanks!

Thomas Jennings

11:43

"1.Questions usually need to ask for a perspective. Who do they want an answer from? Example. You see in this question and my answer to it, there is a very strict Roman Catholic frame. The question is about a Catholic dogma and my answer uses the official Catechism of the Catholic Church to answer it."- that's what I did with the 'four downvotes question'!

Anonymous

12:53

@ThomasJennings How did you phrase the question?

@ThomasJennings Out of curiosity, why are you interested in Catholicism instead of your own background, Anglicanism?

@ThomasJennings Church of England, the mother church of the Anglican Communion?

TRiG

14:09

►

Thomas Jennings

14:28

@Anonymous I was interested, yes. But I'm unsure having invested myself with the local church. The question this site had the biggest problem with was me asking if all denominations believe that everything about God is boundless, or whether some believe that most of God's 'attributes' are without end of quality but that some are only exist in certain 'amounts'? Not the World's greatest question but surely well within guidelines- or rather, surely not, to have taken so many downvotes!

Anonymous

15:15

@ThomasJennings If I understand you correctly, I think this is your question: "Do all denominations believe that everything about God is boundless, or whether some believe that most of God's attributes are limitless while some are limited?" I think this question is problematic, because it looks like a list question.

In other words, it requests a list of all the possible denominations that agree with the premise of the question.

If I were you, I would ask a question about a specific doctrine within a church. You can't go wrong there. :)

fredsbend

@ThomasJennings I don't see a -4 question on your profile. Was is deleted?

@ThomasJennings Is this the question? It has +1/-2 votes.

wax eagle

@ThomasJennings to be honest, I think most folks are turned off by what seems to be the question repetition.

Anonymous

@waxeagle What is a question repetition?

wax eagle

@Anonymous IE asking (what at least seems to be) the same question repeatedly

Anonymous

@waxeagle How is Thomas Jennings' question a duplicate of another question?

wax eagle

15:22

@Anonymous they aren't exactly duplicates, thus it's not exactly repetition, but he's asked about the same (or very similar) topics several times

and my best guess is that people are a bit tired of it

Anonymous

@waxeagle So, what's wrong with the subject of the question?

wax eagle

@Anonymous nothing at all.

Anonymous

@waxeagle I don't think that should be a proper reason to vote a question down. A question should be judged on its own merit.

@waxeagle Care to provide support for Thomas Jennings by voting it up? :)

wax eagle

@Anonymous voting is incredibly subjective. People don't often do things for the right reasons, but I will say that question repetition is something that we have a mod message template for

Dan Andrews

Ok, I like @Mawia and all, however if I would have posted those questions, they would have been put on hold quicker than I hit the submit key and down voted to Hades.

fredsbend

15:27

@ThomasJennings It has the appearance of being a general question, but looking at it more closely, it is asking for justification for a particular Christian belief. That is an acceptable format, however, the wording could be better. Reading the current answer makes it more clear what it is asking.

wax eagle

@DanAndrews I've put several of his on hold of late

Anonymous

There are too many Daniels here. Dan Andrews. Dan the Orthodox. Dan from the Biblical Hermeneutics SE. Daniel from the Judaism SE. Too many Daniels!

Dan Andrews

We're the tribe of Dan

3

wax eagle

@Anonymous I think the middle dans are the same?

Anonymous

@waxeagle No, there is a different Dan that is different from Dan the Orthodox but still hangs out on the biblical hermeneutics SE.

Dan Andrews

15:30

Sorry, I can only protest with my parents at this point...

well... one of them since the other is dead.

Anonymous

One time, I accidentally thought that there was a Daniel Stratton here, but really the true name was "David Stratton".

Dan Andrews

If this wasn't linked to my SO account, I'd change it. I think it's crazy that the chat's don't use the SE account name

Yeah, Dave's a good dude.

Anonymous

On the subject of David, I think there are too many Davids too.

wax eagle

it's a Christianity site and those are strong biblical names, expect many of them :)

Dan Andrews

There is only one Caleb ;)

AJ Henderson

15:34

@DanAndrews there can be only one...

Anonymous

@waxeagle Do you know how the christening (baptism) ceremony in the Roman Catholic Church become conflated with the meaning of naming someone?

Dan Andrews

how true. He's a smart dude, btw. His knowledge is amazing considering his local.

Anonymous

@DanAndrews also considering that he's a Fundamentalist Christian.

I'd never have guessed!

fredsbend

@waxeagle I don't think I've seen a single Michael participating. Though there's quite a few that have.

Dan Andrews

I'm a recovering Catholic - as my wife (Methodist) likes to point out. I jest, I have no issue with Catholicism as I was raised in the Catholic church.

Anonymous

15:40

@DanAndrews Were you baptized and confirmed and married in it?

wax eagle

@fredsbend yeah, only one user with the name Michael has earned rep this month

Anonymous

@waxeagle Do you think people would assume the gender if a person chooses a masculine or feminine name?

Dan Andrews

@Anonymous No, we were married in a Baptist church and I was re-baptised by immersion.

wax eagle

@Anonymous they do.

Anonymous

I wonder if "Dan" is masculine or feminine.

wax eagle

15:42

@Anonymous Dan is typically masculine

Anonymous

@DanAndrews Why did you become Baptist? What type of Baptist?

Dan Andrews

Ever wonder about the Tribe of Dan where elsewhere in the bible there is Daniel?

wax eagle

related and interesting: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/222024/…

Anonymous

@waxeagle But Dan may be short for Daniel or Danielle.

wax eagle

@Anonymous yes, hence typically

though most Danielles I've known have gone by Dani

Dan Andrews

15:46

@Anonymous Because when we audited churches in our new city, the Baptist church fit us the best and we made it our church home. They call it baptist with a little 'b'. It's part of the... ah shoot, I forgot which group they're affiliated. medinacommunitychurch.org

Thomas Jennings

@waxeagle I'm sure it's not a repetition...I can't remember posting anything of the kind! If people are downvoting me our of irratance rather than a specific reason, surely that's unfair? We shouldn't let opinion get in the way of research.

wax eagle

@ThomasJennings it's not exactly repetition but I think there's a sense that you've asked about the same topic repeatedly

Anonymous

@waxeagle Cute nickname.

Dan Andrews

@Anonymous However, one of my best friends is the Rector of St. Paul's Episcopal church, were we attend often: stpauls-medina.org

Anonymous

@DanAndrews What does it mean to "audit" church?

Dan Andrews

15:49

@Anonymous And I've helped Bethel Baptist (way too conservative for me) startup in my theater bethelbaptist.cc

We went to different churches for a month or so to find the one that we enjoyed the most and had the best (in our opinion) youth programs.

My oldest son wanted to go back to Heartland because he enjoyed the programs and had fun... so... that pretty much made our decision for us.

Anonymous

I wonder where people would go if a person just wants to hear a lecture on theology and biblical hermeneutics.

Dan Andrews

probably not a church

Thomas Jennings

@waxeagle But surely, if you post questions that matter to your own research, themes are inevitable? I mean, who changes tac every other day, to go down a diffferent topic- if they're serious, I mean- and surely downvoting other people getting too facinated in different fields is counter productive to any real understanding being developed? (I thought my 'hangup', in the past, was 'joy' and 'Heaven'...I'm quite surprised if I've found a new one lol)

wax eagle

@Anonymous universities are good for that

Dan Andrews

I would suggest a liberal seminary school.

Anonymous

15:52

@DanAndrews What does auditing churches mean? Is that like paying tithes to the church, which would pay taxes to the IRS?

Dan Andrews

@Anonymous Auditing by attending the church for a month to see if we liked it.

To see if it had what we were looking for

wax eagle

@ThomasJennings But research type questions should build on each other, granted I haven't evaluated your question progression, but I get the sense that you're thrashing rather than building

Anonymous

@DanAndrews I read this journal article. It's about a guy and his family who went on a church-going spree on several churches and had interviews with evangelical Christians who couldn't resist evangelizing in the workplace.

Dan Andrews

@Anonymous Several of my friends graduated from princeton seminary. One of the Presbyterian ministers in our lodge.

If I had time and money, I would love to go through their program too. Not that I would ever be or desire to be a pastor, but for the education.

Anonymous

@DanAndrews Princeton Seminary is part of an Ivy League school. It's going to be very costly, but the degree may work in the competitive market.

@DanAndrews The alternative option is to teach yourself.

Dan Andrews

15:59

@Anonymous hence, that's why I won't do it :) We (Knights Templar) send ministers to the holy land each ear (masonic and non-masonic). It's a great trip and I get to learn a lot from the ministers.

Thomas Jennings

No, it's building, I assure you! But even if everyone is naffed off with me (which I would find a shame) it seems absurd to downvote a legit question four times just because it annoyed them or they didn't fancy I was making progress in my own personal beliefs! This sites appeal (for me) was always that it was rationable and uncluttered by messy opinions. It would be a great shame if my questions were bashed out of mere personal taste!

Dan Andrews

kemerley.com/Freemasonry/KT/HLP/Holy_Land_Pilgrimage_INTRO.htm

Thomas Jennings

Out of interest (no offence taken), as a side not, why do appear to be thrashing rather than building?

Anonymous

@DanAndrews Knights Templar. Crusades. You really do sound like a Roman Catholic! So medieval!

wax eagle

@ThomasJennings I'm actually going through your profile now trying to evaluate at little bit (truly trying to help here). See if I can figure out how to advise in a way that's more constructive than "It seems like X"

Thomas Jennings

16:02

@waxeagle thanks

wax eagle

I have access to your entire volume of questions so I'll see if I can pick up some trends

Dan Andrews

@Anonymous you assume that the Catholics still like the Templars :) However the knights of columbus are VERY similar to the Knights Templar organization today - like to admit it or not. Even the Honor Guard is similar.

@ThomasJennings questions are down voted here for mere personal taste... it's the way it is.

Anonymous

@DanAndrews Historyteacherz has done a Youtube show on the Crusades. In it, the Knights Templar is mentioned.

►

Dan Andrews

@Anonymous Knights Templar != Knights Templar today. Yes, the original Knights Templar were... interesting.

Anonymous

@DanAndrews What is !=?

Dan Andrews

16:06

not equal

Anonymous

@DanAndrews So, are you Catholic, or are you Baptist?

Catholic-Baptist? Baptist-Catholic?

Can a person be Lutheran and Roman Catholic at the same time?

Dan Andrews

hmmm technically I'm both... but my personal beliefs are more Baptist than Catholic as this point.

I didn't denounce Catholicism to become Baptist....

Anonymous

@DanAndrews How does that work out?

Dan Andrews

@Anonymous I was baptized Catholic, then later re-baptized Baptist. The meaning of the ritual is different between the two denominations. Sounds like a good SE question.

As a Catholic, a child cannot leave the house after birth until he's baptized. To Baptists, a baptismal is an outward sign of a inner belief. Completely different.

Anonymous

@DanAndrews Why can't he leave the house?

Dan Andrews

16:11

Google is awesome my friend :) I've gotta run, work calls.

Anonymous

What house?

Thomas Jennings

@DanAndrews Well, that's a shame. By that score, I could down vote any question I felt questioned God. Seems to kill the prospect of any honest 'seeking' of Him if a question's value is rewarded or damaged by unpredictable outside sensibilities.

wax eagle

@ThomasJennings remember that this isn't a site for seekers though, it's intended to be academic

Thomas Jennings

@waxeagle True. But if it is academic, surely all the more reason to see people's tastes infringing on study as something wrong.

Does Elisha speak?

16:33

0

Q: Posting a denominational answer to a "too broad question" before it closes as "too broad"

If a particular question asks about the Holy Spirit, and I happen to know something about the Holy Spirit from an orthodox Calvinist Trinitarian perspective because I've read R.C. Sproul's books, can I add my denominational answer with a prefix like "From an orthodox Calvinist Trinitarian perspec...

discussion

wax eagle

@ThomasJennings still working on a study of your questions, I'll have more information when I'm closer to completion. Only on the 6th question so far.

Anonymous

@waxeagle Thomas Jennings isn't exactly a seeker; he's a committed Christian, baptized and confirmed the Church of England.

wax eagle

@Anonymous seeker in this case may refer to anyone seeking the truth

Anonymous

@waxeagle The presumption is that there is truth in the first place.

wax eagle

@Anonymous most users of this site agree that there is

Thomas Jennings

16:39

@waxeagle Thanks wax- it may take you some time! Maybe just skim!

wax eagle

@ThomasJennings Right now I'm writing about a sentence of my thoughts on each one and cataloguing the subjects to see if I can pick up any trends and general senses here.

Anonymous

@waxeagle I do too... in a scientific sort of way.

wax eagle

I'm thinking every 10 or so I'd like to write a paragraph with general thoughts and any sense of progress.

Thomas Jennings

There are certainly trends (some sublime-some ridiculous!) but, as it is an academic site, I tend to assume that specializing is not only accepted, it's the general case in most areas of academic study. If someone studying the Cretaceous is largly interested in Triceratops droppings from that period- it's not only valid, it's useful. People becoming experts in all the seperate areas. If I develop a central interest, surely that's actually imporant!

wax eagle

@ThomasJennings chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/13174/room-for-wax-and-thomas

@ThomasJennings I'm going to post my thoughts as I compile them (in blocks of 10) there

shoot, I should probably link to the questions themselves in that

@ThomasJennings and actually, I'll make that room private if you'd prefer. We don't generally do that, but since I'm literally going through all of your questions and giving you my honest thoughts, I'm not opposed to it in this case.

I may get kicked off the internet in a minute here so I've made it private for the moment, please let me know in there your choices

Thomas Jennings

17:05

Then yes to private, please!- Oh dear, I'm little nervous now! Some of the questions- I admit- were a bit rubishy...

wax eagle

@ThomasJennings quite all right, no judgement here, just honest assessment

AJ Henderson

17:20

@ThomasJennings we all had to start somewhere

I'm pretty sure we all have some rubishy questions at some point

Anonymous

17:46

I think there are too many Reformed individuals here.

waxeagle is reformed. Caleb is reformed. JackDouglas is reformed. I think AJ Henderson is reformed.

Jack Douglas

@Anonymous we are also all human, do you think there are too many humans too? :p

AJ Henderson

I wouldn't exactly call myself calvinist

Anonymous

@AJHenderson Then what are you?

AJ Henderson

A weird mix

Anonymous

@AJHenderson What do you mean by "a weird mix"?

Jack Douglas

17:51

@AJHenderson Aren't we all really?

it's just labels

AJ Henderson

in this particular case though, I simultaneously believe in predestination and free will

which is what I mean by weird in this case

Anonymous

@JackDouglas Labels are meaningful.

Jack Douglas

@Anonymous they are approximate

and 1-dimensional

@AJHenderson that's not weird

compatibilism?

AJ Henderson

never heard of compatabilsm

Jack Douglas

@AJHenderson Don Carson's PhD thesis iirc

AJ Henderson

17:54

ah

yeah, reading wikipedia on it now

Anonymous

@AJHenderson There is a joke. A disciple asks his teacher, "What is the difference between free will and predestination?" The teacher responds, "Lift up one leg." The disciple obeys. The teacher says, "That's free will. Now, lift up the other leg." The disciple says, "I can't; I'm gonna fall." The teacher says, "That's predestination."

3

Jack Douglas

@Anonymous For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not being merely human?

@Anonymous that's funny :)

Anonymous

@JackDouglas Good enough for grouping people together and for a sense of belonging and identity.

AJ Henderson

hmm, reading about the compatiblist's viewpoint

I disagree with them as well

Jack Douglas

actually so do I a bit I think

how do you reconcile the two?

AJ Henderson

17:57

I believe that they truely had the choice to do either but it was forknown what they would decide

and that the knowledge of the choice doesn't make it not your choice

Jack Douglas

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined

not that that proves anything

Anonymous

@JackDouglas But Paul and Apollos may have different theologies.

Jack Douglas

@Anonymous Of course, and that's why you should follow neither

@Anonymous "What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth."

AJ Henderson

it becomes a bit of a question of how we understand predestination as well. God had the ability to create us any way he liked, and in creating us in such a way that our free will would lead us to make a choice, it is effectively predestining

Anonymous

@AJHenderson How did you arrive at your conclusion?

AJ Henderson

18:00

by trying to reconcile the two apparent incompatibilities, that God builds us and knows exactly how that will make our choices play out but also that we have free will and are responsible for our actions

by process of elimination, it is the only way I can find to resolve those two statements

Jack Douglas

@AJHenderson If God is able to forsee an act, is he powerless to then prevent it? That's the bit about that reconciliation I'm least comfortable with.

AJ Henderson

that our decissions must be our own, but that God creates us such that he understands the choices we will make and allows us to make those choices

Anonymous

@JackDouglas But the follower of Paul may think differently than the follower of Apollos. Therefore, the label is important to mark the distinction.

AJ Henderson

@JackDouglas he isn't powerless to prevent it, he chooses to allow it

so that we can have free will

Jack Douglas

@AJHenderson does that mean we will be less free in the new creation, being unable to sin?

AJ Henderson

18:02

good question, that I don't know the answer to

Anonymous

@AJHenderson Maybe predestination and free will are not polar opposites.

Jack Douglas

@Anonymous I think you are right

AJ Henderson

most of my reasoning goes towards the basic distinction between salvation and hell being that of choosing via our free will to follow God

thus, arguably we will have just as much free will, but our choices will be to follow God

Jack Douglas

@Anonymous The only logical reconciliation I can stomach is that free will is a logical subset of predestination. It is 'free', but not free from God.

AJ Henderson

but that's where it starts getting much more in to me theorizing out in la la land

Jack Douglas

18:04

@AJHenderson so our desires have changed, but our freedom hasn't?

I can go along with that

AJ Henderson

effectively, yeah, that's my going theory

and those who wish to be separate from God will also be allowed that

which nicely resolves that God is unwilling that any should perish but explains why some still end up in hell

Anonymous

Maybe we should try a neurotheological approach.

AJ Henderson

because forcing them to follow him would countermand the free will he wished to give them

Jack Douglas

@AJHenderson unless he forced them to want to follow him?

rather than compelling him against their will

AJ Henderson

@JackDouglas I would argue at that point it is no longer free will though

Jack Douglas

18:07

@AJHenderson then we are back to the new creation :)

4 mins ago, by AJ Henderson

thus, arguably we will have just as much free will, but our choices will be to follow God

AJ Henderson

right, I'm saying if we choose to ask God to remove the will to do wrong, then it is still our will, if we don't ask for that and he did it anyway, it wouldn't be our will

Jack Douglas

@AJHenderson how can we choose something we ultimately don't want?

Anonymous

I think it's best to base our conjectures on science.

Jack Douglas

that's why I think regeneration must ultimately be monergistic

AJ Henderson

that moves in to salvation, we aren't able to want God's will by ourselves, but we are able to recognize that we should want it through Christ

when God calls us

Anonymous

18:09

In neuroscience, I've always wondered what is the cause of volition.

AJ Henderson

it's all very convoluted in one sense, but simplistic in another

Jack Douglas

do you think it is well supported in scripture?

Anonymous

However, I think volition must be adequately and specifically described.

@AJHenderson @JackDouglas In neuroscience, there are many different ways we can look at volition. Volition as intention. Volition as voluntary behavior. And so on.

AJ Henderson

@JackDouglas from what I can gather, most of my conclusions come as a direct result of trying to resolve what different scriptures say

Jack Douglas

@AJHenderson that's interesting

I wondered if that was the case

AJ Henderson

18:13

it started as a relatively simple model and I've refined it over time as different discussions and scriptures have challenged it

Jack Douglas

your theology sounds like classical Arminianism

but I may be wrong

AJ Henderson

such as working in things like God hardening Pharoh's heart

Jack Douglas

Can I ask, do you have a fundamental objection to the idea that God can somehow be ultimately responsible for evil?

Anonymous

I think it's important to do a multidisciplinary approach, using science and the scriptures.

If God did create the world, then wouldn't science reveal God?

AJ Henderson

@JackDouglas looking at the wikipedia page, I take slight issue with the 4th point and strong issue with the 5th if I properly understand it

but the first 3 I agree with

Jack Douglas

18:16

that's really interesting!

you are unique :)

AJ Henderson

@JackDouglas yes, I would object strongly to that. I think evil exists as a neccessary deviation from God's will in order for their to be free will

but that it is by nature the opposite of God

Jack Douglas

@AJHenderson Similar question, could God have prevented evil from ever occurring?

AJ Henderson

yes, if he elected not to allow for free will

Jack Douglas

@AJHenderson but the new creation still has free will and no evil?

AJ Henderson

yes, because that aspect of free will was already decided

Jack Douglas

18:19

you are saying God couldn't logically have gone straight to the new creation and preserved free will?

AJ Henderson

nope, because then it wouldn't have been free will

because the choice never would have been an option

Jack Douglas

surely that is the same as saying it is no longer free will in the new creation: how does it matter what happened in the past to my freedom now?

or is freedom a 'point in time' thing

if you've ever had it you have it now (by definition)

AJ Henderson

I would challenge that it matters more if you have been allowed a choice than if you are currently allowed it. So in a sense one could argue the free will might be more limited

though I would challenge that having made the previous decision to not have the desire to go against God, we are self limiting rather than being limited by God

and thus it is still the same level of free will even if our desires are more limited

Jack Douglas

that's an interesting perspective on freedom

I think I agree with it to a degree

AJ Henderson

I also make no claim I have it perfectly right, this is just my best attempt to try to resolve everything I understand from scripture

Jack Douglas

18:22

sure, we are all in that boat!

in essence you seem to be implying that evil has 'a purpose'. A 'good' purpose even.

I mean the existence of evil, not an individual evil act

and I mean a good 'ultimate' purpose not a good 'short-term' purpose

AJ Henderson

I don't know if I would say a good purpose, but a neccesary one for a time

so that a good thing can be accomplished

Jack Douglas

it's still serving the purpose in eternity, because it "exists as a neccessary deviation from God's will in order for their to be free will"

AJ Henderson

but I would argue it isn't good that people choose that path

just that it is good that they be offered the choice

it's a subtle distinction though

Jack Douglas

can something be both good and bad?

AJ Henderson

in my world view, no

it can't be

the same action may be able to be good in one instance and bad in another context, but it is either one or the other

it all comes back to the fundamental choice of moving towards Christ or away

that is, for me, the nature of good and evil

Jack Douglas

18:27

When the Lord has finished all his work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, he will punish the speech of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the boastful look in his eyes.

James T

Can something seem bad but later turn out to have been good? Perhaps via (bad thing) + (later actions) = (good thing overall)

Without excusing or minimizing the original badness - I'm thinking along regeneration or redemption lines.

AJ Henderson

@JamesT I think sinful actions can (and are) redeemed

but that doesn't take away from the sinfullness of the initial action

Jack Douglas

As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

AJ Henderson

God works all things for the good of those who love him

James T

Right, I think we don't want to say that the bad thing is justified for the sake of the good. Certainly Paul wouldn't.

Romans 3:8

AJ Henderson

18:30

I was rather saying that certain actions done rightly (in pursuit of Christ) can be good while the same actions (done wrongly) can be sinful

this goes along with the verse about not doing the good you know you should do being sin

and the verse about those who Christ spits out that did things in his name goes to support that the condition and reason of the heart in actions matters as much or more than the actions themselves

Jack Douglas

@AJHenderson too true

So you think God could have prevented evil, but there was something he wanted so much (free will), he allowed it, is that right?

AJ Henderson

in a manner of speaking, yees

it jives well with verses such as the one where God asks how long he shall contend with our wickedness

Jack Douglas

In theory, you could substitute something else for X, without being any more or less logical: "God could have prevented evil, but there was something he wanted so much (X), he allowed it"

AJ Henderson

it's clear that God could defeat sin at any time he so desired

Jack Douglas

we have the same logic, just different X :)

I like that

fredsbend

18:38

@waxeagle I decided to weigh in.

You know, the fear of being called sexist is almost as great as the fear of being called racist. I wonder when the fear of being called homophobic will catch up?

Just a weird thought I had.

AJ Henderson

@fredsbend in some ways, I think it may already have

I think we are getting to the point where most people consider sexism largely fixed, where as most people still consider homophobia to be an active issue

fredsbend

In some circles, certainly. But among those that actually harbor homophobic tendencies, they brush off such accusations.

AJ Henderson

true, but isn't that always the case?

fredsbend

Yes, but I guess I mean to say that such people with such thoughts are decreasing, in general. Homophobia, not so much.

AJ Henderson

I know personally, I take much more care when talking about the subject of homosexuality to ensure that it is clear I'm not homophobic than I do around the issue of gender roles

granted, I'm careful around both, but I'm much more careful around the homosexuality one

though I also live in the North Eastern United States

Anonymous

18:45

@fredsbend I'm sure there already is.

@AJHenderson Especially in non-Western countries.

fredsbend

@AJHenderson Yeah. I don't know what I do. I don't think I'm any: racist, sexist, or homophobic. But I have been accused of the first two. When speaking, I usually try and always hope that my audience knows I'm only being candid and that my heart harbors no such beliefs.

Anonymous

@fredsbend Some people can do so unintentionally by behavior.

Jack Douglas

Do we all even mean the same thing by sexism, racism and homophobia? Somehow I doubt it.

we just all know it's social suicide to assume any of those words as labels

fredsbend

Jul 17 '13 at 23:04, by Shog9

@fredsbend pfft, dismissing you as a crazy racist is never hard ;-)

AJ Henderson

I always make sure to clearly establish my view of their equality before I ever talk about my views. For example, any time I discuss that I think homosexual behavior is sinful, I first make it clear that I don't think it is any worse from the sinful desires I have and act upon and that it isn't that I see them as any less or more valuable or right than I am. I also try to avoid touching the subject unless the people I'm talking with first know I'm friends with several gay people

fredsbend

18:50

Shog9 Didin't say it, but I was accused of being racist in this chat room a while ago.

AJ Henderson

and that it isn't any kind of bearing on how I interact with them

fredsbend

Oh well.

Jack Douglas

@AJHenderson context and communication is better than labels and talking past each other every time!

AJ Henderson

and I'm similarly cautious when approaching gender roles and expressing while I feel there are differences there aren't inequalities and that both have equal value and authority

though it gets really tricky when I start getting deep in to that one and things like wives submitting to their husbands (personally my view is that it is actually more a limitation on the husband because it is the husband's job to put his wife first if living rightly)

and that that isn't a question of value or authority, but rather order. And you know what, I can only think of about one, maybe two times ever that I have had to ask my wife to just trust me on something

and that's in 5 and a half years of being married

Anonymous

@AJHenderson Got any children?

AJ Henderson

18:55

one on the way

just finished the first trimester

Jack Douglas

congratulations

Anonymous

@AJHenderson After five years!

AJ Henderson

we got married young and wanted time to enjoy life together first

we actually hadn't planned to have a kid until next year

but we had a very (re)productive cruise to hawaii

Jack Douglas

@Anonymous are you married/partnered?

oo, that's a bit too much information

:p

AJ Henderson

well what else you gonna do on a boat for 4 days at sea each way

Jack Douglas

18:57

vomit a lot?

(if you were me)

AJ Henderson

have you been on a modern cruise ship?

Jack Douglas

no, I have not, I stand corrected :)

AJ Henderson

they are ridiculously stable, though we did have some bad weather for a day and a half of the trip

but normally, you can barely tell they are moving if you can tell at all

fredsbend

@Anonymous My wife and I were married 5 years before our first as well. Same deal. Married young.

AJ Henderson

I was 24 when we married and Danielle was 20

err, 23

I turned 24 a few days after

err, I guess a few weeks after

she just finally finished all her school and got a real job last year

Jack Douglas

19:00

@fredsbend that's all good but adjusting to being woken up in the night is easier the closer you are to 20 than 30

Anonymous

I'm impressed at the long distance between time of marriage and time of firstborn's birth.

AJ Henderson

needless to say, we aren't catholic, so we made fairly good use of birth control

even though God decided it was time for a kid anyway

(Danielle was on the pill at the time)

Anonymous

@AJHenderson Sexual abstinence can be a form of birth control. So can abortion.

You're controlling the number of births or population increases.

AJ Henderson

that's fair, though I was just pointing out we aren't a denomination that frowns on artificial means of preventing pregnancy from occurring as a result of intercourse

though I would personally argue that abortion isn't a form of birth control since in my mind a baby is created at conception, but that's an entirely different argument

Anonymous

Infanticide can also be a form of birth control, if the parents want a male heir, not a daughter.

Jack Douglas

19:07

@Anonymous abstinence is not a form of birth control it is a form of conception control

AJ Henderson

or I guess more accurately I have no way to tell if it is a baby created at conception so I prefer to err on the side of caution

Jack Douglas

@Anonymous infanticide is neither

it is a form of population control

AJ Henderson

@JackDouglas well, in that regard, most all forms of birth control are really conception control (other than abortion)

Jack Douglas

@AJHenderson I was chiding @Anonymous for nit-picking and ignoring context ;)

sometimes it helps to know what it feels like :)

Anonymous

@AJHenderson But if you believe that, you may want to consider how some contraceptives work, which is to abort the fertilized egg.

AJ Henderson

19:10

other than morning after pill, contraceptives work by preventing fertalization

Jack Douglas

@Anonymous very true

@AJHenderson not so much

it's statistical

and depends a lot on your definition of conception

Beginning of pregnancy controversy

Controversy over the beginning of pregnancy usually occurs in the context of the abortion debate. Depending on where pregnancy is considered to begin, some methods of birth control or infertility treatment might be considered abortifacient. The controversy is not primarily a scientific issue since knowledge of human reproduction and development has become very refined, but rather is primarily a linguistic and definitional question. The issue may also have social, medical, political and legal ramifications if one equates the "beginning of pregnancy" with the "beginning of an individual human...

Anonymous

@AJHenderson Since you said your wife was on the pill, that's perfectly fine, considering your beliefs, because the pill is not an abortifacient.

AJ Henderson

yeah, I knew the pill wasn't, interesting that some theorize that the IVD could be though

Jack Douglas

@Anonymous thesurvivaldoctor.com/2013/02/23/abortion-and-the-pill

Anonymous

19:33

Well, at least no one does one-night stands here.

Jack Douglas

@Anonymous that's no reason to be pleased :)

fredsbend

19:57

@JackDouglas Yes. The trick to being happy with children is giving up on trying to do certain things. Some things are just going to have to wait a few years, when they need less attention.

@JackDouglas It never occurred to me that there is a controversy. Medically speaking, successful implantation marks the start of pregnancy. If there is no implantation, then there is no pregnancy. Any blastocysts in the womb will die and be expelled with the uterine lining at the next menses.

Anonymous

@JackDouglas You can't commit adultery, if you're unmarried and your partner is unmarried. ;)

You'd commit zina, though.

fredsbend

However, I don't see how this can be used in a argument revolving around abortion.

That argument is centered around when life begins, not pregnancy.

Using it in an abortion argument would surely lead into logical fallacy.

fredsbend

21:29

Some water cooler gossip. A certain user we've had a bit of trouble with is now on a network wide suspension until March. Don't ask me who it is. I've been told not to name people. If you've seen this too then I'm just acknowledging that its an interesting development in this user's site use.

Anonymous

21:40

Sometimes, I wonder how people derive the conclusion.

For sola scriptura people, I think this is impossible.

All scripture must be interpreted in some way.

fredsbend

22:23

@TRiG Quite funny. The man has wit that I only wish I could have.

Right up my ally too. I'm an amateur musician.

I must confess that I have to get used to accents as "thick" as his. It took me about a minute in before I felt like I was understanding everything he was saying.

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