The Upper Room

2:28 AM

1

Q: Wanted: A standard way for a site to have a prominent professional advice disclaimer

I propose that there ought to be a way for the mods of a site to put up a prominent disclaimer that shows up on every page and makes it clear that the site does not offer professional services. For example, on mi.yodeya, the SE 1.0 site that was the starting point for Judaism.SE, the header of e...

^^^ Hi, C.SE. Please take a look at this proposal I wrote on MSO, which I think may be useful to you as well.

mxyzplk

2:47 AM

I prefer a more terse tagling of "Caution: Do Not Bank Your Immortal Soul On Anything One Of Us Yahoos Says"

2

Isaac Moses

3:02 AM

@mxyzplk See, that's why I'm asking for them to make it so mods can put in whatever they see fit.

wax eagle

3:44 AM

@Caleb and anyone else interested in an Infant Baptism discussion. If you guys are around tomorrow I'd love to get into it. I know @Flimzy posted a question about it.

Flimzy

3:58 AM

I answered a question about it

Did I ask one, too? I don't remember :)

dancek

6:49 AM

What do you think, should this indeed be moved to Judaism.SE?

5

Q: Is God's name Yahweh or Jehovah?

God's name is written as the Tetragrammaton יהוה‎ (YHWH) in the Old Testament. The name is not vocalized in the manuscripts and it's considered ineffable, forbidden to say aloud, by Jews. For that reason, the original pronunciation hasn't been preserved. The two most commonly suggested possible ...

tetragrammaton yahweh jehovah

djeikyb

might they object to yahweh instead of yhwh?

dancek

I personally think it's more appropriate here since Christians use Yahweh/Jehovah all the time, and Jews never.

@djeikyb they probably would find the question highly insulting.

djeikyb

aye. seeing as how the pronunciation is forbidden

dancek

@djeikyb Yes, many of them even write G-d and they have questions like:

14

Q: Is it permissible to erase the name of G-d from an E-reader?

Most people seem to be lenient about shemos on digital screens in general (though Bar-Ilan does avoid displaying the Tetragrammaton.) The letters on the screen are just light, there is nothing really written there. But what about on a E-reader, like a Kindle or a Nook? For those devices, actual ...

halacha-jewish-law technology shemos-sacred-names

note the upvotes...

djeikyb

7:31 AM

oh wow

i can see how judaism.se has it a lot easier than christianity.se

judaism is a system of living with lots of boundaries

though i wonder how the liberal sects fare on judaism.se

dancek

@djeikyb the liberals don't really fare in Christianity.SE either

In my personal experience, there are a lot of liberal Christians around but next to none of them are actually interested in Christianity.

Of course, liberal priests are a different matter, they do care. I have the, um, benefit of knowing several.

djeikyb

i don't know how liberal i am. i'm nigh heretical to some of my conservative friends, but not nearly so liberal as some others i know

but i'm interested in christianity

dancek

@djeikyb interesting

@djeikyb do you believe in the resurrection of Christ? the Trinity? sin?

djeikyb

7:46 AM

yep

well, the trinity i'm confused by

but i'm told it's a sacred mystery that isn't necessary to comprehend

dancek

@djeikyb ok, you're not dangerously liberal then :)

@djeikyb aren't we all.

djeikyb

and what the death and resurrection of christ means, i'm also confused by

dancek

@djeikyb what do you mean?

djeikyb

penal substitution rings false to me

christus victor fares better imo

dancek

@djeikyb googling

djeikyb

7:50 AM

oh, and i reject conscious eternal torment

that gets me into all kinds of trouble with my conservative friends

possibly more so than rejecting penal substitution

dancek

@djeikyb looks to me as there are almost a dozen theories of atonement, penal substitution being just one and being held mainly by Reformed churches

djeikyb

most protestants hold it dearly

dancek

@djeikyb I can see your point, though the Bible says so little of Hell that I'm not making guesses myself

djeikyb

at least in these parts

yeah. i honestly don't believe the bible says enough to prove a theory of hell

i logic my rejection of cet

and since the bible doesn't prove a theory of hell (mine or otherwise), maybe hell isn't the point

which takes me back to the gospel

which is the point anyway, no?

dancek

@djeikyb certainly Gospel is the point

I mostly attend Lutheran church these days, and I do think their view of justification and the division between Law and Gospel makes a lot of sense

djeikyb

7:58 AM

i actually haven't studied lutheran doctrine much

which may be a result of some ancient bad blood between my denom and lutherans

dancek

I'm quite astonished that I can't quickly find what theory Lutheranism teaches of atonement. I've never really thought about it myself, either.

djeikyb

i imagine it's similar to roman catholics

dancek

@djeikyb I don't know much about Reformed theology myself. It seems similar enough to Lutheranism not to be interesting enough.

@djeikyb depends on your point of view

for a Baptist, I guess Lutherans and Catholics are pretty much the same

djeikyb

newadvent.org/cathen/02055a.htm

dancek

for Lutherans or Catholics, the difference matters everything in the world

djeikyb

8:01 AM

mentions satisfaction doctrine

which is the precursor to penal substitution

LOL. i would never say lutherans and roman catholics are the same

dancek

@djeikyb yeah, misinterpreted you there

djeikyb

there's that whole "guy who broke the church" thing

no, i meant that luther wouldn't have had much reason to break from an RC theory of atonement

dancek

yeah

djeikyb

at least not from core theory

superficial crap like indulgences, sure

dancek

looking at how penal substitution differs from the satisfaction theology that was then, penal substitution is indeed a Calvinist view

and yes, satisfaction has at least been taught by Lutheran priests

but I have also heard Christus Victor taught, quite probably somewhere else

djeikyb

8:09 AM

i wouldn't be terribly surprised to hear christus victor from a lutheran pulpit

i would never expect it from a baptist pulpit..

penal sub just sounds so profoundly wrong and illogical

i can't wrap my head around the idea of god punishing himself

Caleb

@waxeagle I have to do some sermon prep today but ping me if something goes down, maybe I'll audit the course :)

dancek

@djeikyb put that way, I see your point

@djeikyb it doesn't sound to me that you're a liberal, more like you think things through

djeikyb

and reject dominant protestant theology

fortunately christian history backs up my deviations

dancek

@djeikyb there's protestant theology outside the Westminster Confession and Book of Concord

djeikyb

haha, so i've been finding

dancek

8:19 AM

I'm quite certain there's no one church that's right about everything, so it's just a good thing to put the doctrines under scrutiny

no Christian either

djeikyb

true enough

my reluctance to treat genesis as literal and scientific is another one

i can see why though. there's considerable investment in the story of first human sin

dancek

@djeikyb you live in the USA? I think Creationism is much more prominent there than elsewhere. (ok, maybe the UK and Australia too)

djeikyb

yep. i live in a conservative part of california

dancek

I personally don't know what to believe about creation, I just don't have the expertise. Where I live, it seems believing in Creationism is thought stupid even by a lot of Christians.

djeikyb

haha

Sklivvz

8:27 AM

I live in the UK and Creationism is not really fancy here

djeikyb

i hate attacking creationism the same way i hate attacking ID. they both, at a glance, only say that there was a creator

no problems there from me

dancek

@Sklivvz do I remember wrong then. I thought there was some discussion there about teaching it in schools.

Sklivvz

There are some religious extremists, but for the most part, it's not a very religious country (like most of northern europe)

dancek

Here in Finland there's really no chance Creationism would be taught in schools, no chance at all. Nobody would even propose it.

djeikyb

but ID goes on to attack anything not literal six-dayism, and creationists insist on six-dayism

Sklivvz

8:29 AM

ID and creationism are the same. they are bad in the same way.

dancek

@djeikyb wait. ID shouldn't really say anything about who created and how.

djeikyb

i frequently hear how christians in europe are fallen and useless

and ID doesn't, not outright. it simply attacks anything not literal six-dayism

dancek

@Sklivvz it's no secret the same people are behind both, mostly

Sklivvz

yep

dancek

@djeikyb I could've guessed that is said in some circles in the US.

djeikyb

8:31 AM

many circles. focus on the family has broad reach

(and fotf isn't all bad)

dancek

@djeikyb ooh! I actually have two books by FOTF that I haven't read, though :)

djeikyb

i don't know that i've read any books by fotf

but i grew up with their radio programmes

odd, really. being raised in the midst of fotf and conservatism, i really oughtn't be rejecting it

so are liberals for you europeans folk like jesus seminar?

dancek

@djeikyb I don't think it's like that at all. It's very hard to truly indoctrinate children. They'll nearly always start thinking for themselves, eventually. And that includes questioning what they've been taught, even if they find it sound in the end. (at least that happened to me wrt Christianity)

@djeikyb I haven't heard of Jesus seminar

Here in Finland some liberal priests don't believe in the resurrection for example.

djeikyb

they reject the historicity of much of the bible, especially miracles, the resurrection, etc

dancek

There's a much larger bunch that doesn't really believe in sin. They might concede that sin exists, but don't really think any practical action could be sin.

@djeikyb we have some such priests.

djeikyb

8:39 AM

perhaps they could be said to reduce christianity to a sort of humanism

@dancek interesting. how does this work out?

what is the gospel for these people?

dancek

But of course there are different degrees of liberality. I think people who really believe ~everything in the Bible but live a sinful life just for fun are liberals, too.

djeikyb

aye. the sort paul warned about, "sin and be forgiven!"

dancek

@djeikyb as we have a tax-payed church (big mistake IMO) they get to keep their jobs and write stuff. Nobody goes to the churches they teach in, etc. but they're there.

djeikyb

well i mean theologically. it's curious not to believe in sin

dancek

@djeikyb their theology isn't very logical altogether. It's grace combined to humanism and taken to the extreme.

They're like the mother that always understands their kid; nothing the kid does is wrong, and even if it were, it'd be already forgiven.

djeikyb

8:48 AM

ah. bleh

dancek

I think The Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland (the state church) is gonna fall apart soon as almost all bishops are liberal now and most believers don't really attend the church's services anymore but have gone elsewhere.

djeikyb

i wonder why the hierarchy fails like this

similar crumbling is happening here in the US with the ELCA

dancek

I think it's because Lutherans have the Book of Concord and neither ELCF or ELCA hold on to it.

djeikyb

i need to research lutherans

for now though, i need to attempt sleep

my workweek starts tomorrow

good talking with you all

'night

dancek

9:07 AM

@djeikyb you too! Good night!

0

A: Does saying "Thank God!" count as using God's name in vain?

In English, "Thank God" seems to be an established phrase that is used in certain kinds of situations, regardless of the actual meaning. I can easily see how this could be misused. Then again, there are phrases such as "goodbye", originally meaning God be with ye. You can't always avoid saying go...

CiscoIPPhone

11:28 AM

Wikis At Area 51 invited me to chat about CS Lewis' argument. I can't see Wiki so I'll just leave my text here for when he arrives.

I simplified the argument to this:

God can't exist because bad/cruel things happen (for no reason). But if god doesn't exist good and bad is subjective therefore my argument doesn't make sense objectively.

So my point was that even though his argument against god doesn't make sense, it isn't evidence that god exists.

dpatchery

12:46 PM

@waxeagle @mxyzplk cool to see you guys on this site! I'm liking some of your recent answers.

wax eagle

@dpatchery thanks. Glad to see another RP.SE guy around :)

we have an oddly strong presence around here

wax eagle

12:57 PM

wonders how long 40 q/day is sustainable

wonders if that kind of volume is really even healthy

CiscoIPPhone

@waxeagle do you think that's low or high?

wax eagle

@CiscoIPPhone its rather high, particularly for our rather small user base (250ish visist/day).

CiscoIPPhone

game development stack exchange has a low volume but it's been around for over a year

Ah.

wax eagle

@CiscoIPPhone we are managing a pretty good answer rate from what I've seen and the quality has been pretty good. But I'm wondering what % of these questions will still be on topic in a year

a_hardin

@waxeagle I think we're getting all the common questions out of the way now

I'm wondering if eventually all the new questions will look like this christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/154/…

wax eagle

1:08 PM

@a_hardin agreed. Like I said depending on the direction this site goes some of these may have to be revisited in a year or two and killed off. Its kind of the nature of SE sites sometimes, but its also not a bad idea to be forward thinking.

@a_hardin thats one of the hardest questions asked and an example of what this site can and should become.

dancek

I think a lot of certain-bible-passage questions will be asked, there's very few of them now

Caleb

I don't particularly think 40 questions / day is healthy. at least not with the size of the current expert user base to answer them properly. I'm seeing a lot of stuff fly by without proper answers.

dancek

@Caleb yeah, I personally have many that I'd like a better answer for

Caleb

@a_hardin I hope so. We could sort of an evolution into being Hermeneutics :)

I stared some questions and have have some drafts of answers that need to be given, but it takes a lot of time to work up good ones.

a_hardin

They do go by very fast

I'd like to read a lot more of the q's and a's, but I can't remember what I've read so I end up clicking around at random

Is there currently any good way to mark something as read or keep track other than votes?

wax eagle

1:16 PM

@Caleb at some point we need to set a quality standard. Probably soon. If you don't meet the standard the answer should be deleted, CW'd or edited ASAP.

dancek

@a_hardin If there isn't, someone should make a userscript with HTML5 storage... shouldn't be too hard

wax eagle

@a_hardin not that I know of. I want a page that shows me questions I haven't voted on :)

Caleb

Does anybody want to weigh in from a different perspective with something about how you could just as easily argue that it's not fair that anybody should be saved? So far the only answer that even hints at that came from a troll.

a_hardin

actually, i was thinking of providing an answer along those lines

Caleb

@waxeagle Yes, I've been thinking about that. I still think that answers (or answerwers?) that don't claim to represent any particular tradition are not particularly useful. But there is much more to it than a simple rule.

a_hardin

1:21 PM

i'm trying to come up with a batman question for Christianity.SE to help drive traffic

149

Q: Is this Batman equation for real?

HardOCP has an image with an equation which apparently draws the Batman logo. Is this for real?

geometry plane-curves graph

wax eagle

@Caleb true. Its a complicated matter.

Caleb

@a_hardin >100k views? Wow.

I'm not sure doing things just to be sensational are going to get us the right kinds of traffic.

a_hardin

yeah

heh, just noticed Roland's starred chat to the right

Caleb

I'm more worried about attracting people that can give expert level answers to questions about Christianity than people who's doctrine of salvation is modeled after that of batman saving Gotham.

a_hardin

:P

CiscoIPPhone

1:30 PM

I had never heard the word hermeneutics before I read that question @ahardin

mxyzplk

@dpatchery you too man!

Caleb

@a_hardin Ha ha ha! The user that asked that has pulled in 745 rep for asking 1 question, giving zero answers, and voting 8 times (presumably to the 8 answers to his own question).

mxyzplk

And yeah, too many questions and poor answers at the moment

Many answers are very rushed and don't even try to be definitive, more "here's the first thought/verse that came to mind when I read your question enjoy"

a_hardin

@Caleb the user is me :)

hopefully i'm actually earning my rep in Christianity.SE, though :P

Caleb

@a_hardin Er. Hi. So it is. I mean so you are.

a_hardin

1:35 PM

What makes it even better is that the content was even pulled from HardOCP... I just thought it'd make a good question

Caleb

@a_hardin Also 3 bronze, 3 silver and 2 gold badges. Not bad for a days work of a plagiarizer. I should get a new job ;-)

a_hardin

I'll claim nothing other than I helped drive traffic to SE

Caleb

Any input on this one guys? meta.christianity.stackexchange.com/q/364/30

I'm kind of in the middle of it. I'm not attached to my version of the changed question, but I didn't think Peters were in the spirit of the original question, which I actually thought was ok in spite of Shog9's comments.

wax eagle

That is a fascinating question and one to wrestle with

Flimzy

That question sounds a bit like a troll at first

But as Shog says, I think it actually is a good question... even if it was intended as a troll, it was (mostly) well presented, and is answerable

I haven't thought enough about ti to consider the various forms of the question, though

and sadly don't have time today

wax eagle

1:43 PM

@Flimzy one of the interesting things here is that trolls ask interesting questions, once edited they add value...

Flimzy

Indeed.

wax eagle

@Caleb your edit reflects the spirit of the question better than Peter's does. Just because he believes something opposed to one of the question's presuppositions doesn't make it a bad question.

Flimzy

I love @Caleb's question

Caleb

@waxeagle Chime in on meta?

Flimzy

10

Q: What happens to people who have never heard about Jesus?

There seems to be general consensus inside Christianity that in order to be saved, you must have faith, and that this faith has to be in Jesus Christ. Here is one verse sometimes cited for the necessity of having faith: Hebrews 11:6 (ESV) And without faith it is impossible to please him, fo...

faith salvation evangelism missions

I wish I had time to answer it now... maybe on Tuesday

and my answer will then tie into this question

3

Q: How does the New Testament define a Christian and a non-Christian, a brother in Christ and not a brother in Christ?

How does the New Testament define a brother in Christ? According to the New Testament, what makes a human a brother in Christ? And also, according to the New Testament, which people are definitely not Christians, definitely not brothers in Christ? I would want to have a set of key critical condi...

definition

Caleb

1:48 PM

@Flimzy Yes I thought it was a troll at first too ... and indeed it is somebody with an agenda they are trying to convey with their questions and comments, but at least they are being reasonable about it I think.

Die hard atheist & secular scientist !== troll.

@Flimzy Shog closed it.

wax eagle

@Caleb you beat me to it :)

Flimzy

I saw that... I think his reasoning was sound, but he also suggested how it could be re-opened.

Which I trust the edits address... but I haven't had time to review them

Caleb

@Flimzy That's the question here and on meta. It got edited one way and I changed it back to be very similar to the original question.

Flimzy

I have guests here from out of town this weekend... I have to go entertain them, or I'd form an opinion to contribute to the meta question

Jonathon Byrd

2:09 PM

dang I'm so confused

how do i invite somebody to a chat room

@Caleb Die hard atheist & secular scientist === null

wax eagle

@JonathonByrd do they have 20 rep?

Jonathon Byrd

yup

wax eagle

@JonathonByrd do they have a chat account?

Jonathon Byrd

i dunno

wax eagle

@JonathonByrd who is it?

Jonathon Byrd

2:12 PM

how do i find out?

Jenny Thomson

wax eagle

@JonathonByrd chat.stackexchange.com/users

Jonathon Byrd

no acct

wax eagle

@jennythomson

@JonathonByrd she has been pinged

wow, she either really hits or really misses :). 2 -5s and 2 +5s for qs.

a_hardin

I was kind of worried about what angle she was coming from, then her comment on my answer totally threw me off.

0

A: Do not allow a sorceress/witch to live?

You can reference To what extent does the Law of Moses still apply? to help determine if Exodus 22:18 is even still a command we should follow. I believe that it does not, so I do not believe we should be killing witches. In fact, in Matthew 7:1 (NIV) Jesus says, “Do not judge, or you too will ...

CiscoIPPhone

She's a witch!

a_hardin

2:33 PM

@CiscoIPPhone that was actually what I was wondering at first. Now it's become a little clearer she is probably not.

wax eagle

@CiscoIPPhone She turned me into a newt!

a_hardin

@waxeagle um, I'd hate to be technical here, but you're not a newt. You're a lizard.

wax eagle

@a_hardin I got better

a_hardin

It's too bad this isn't in beta yet

116

Biology

Proposed Q&A site for active researchers, academics, and students.

Currently in commitment.

wax eagle

@a_hardin :P hope you at least got the reference :)

a_hardin

2:39 PM

i thought so

dancek

0

A: What does Matthew 5:27-30 ("Cast off your eye/hand/etc") mean?

The three uses of Law in Reformed1 and Lutheran2 theology explains this very well. One very important purpose of Law is to let us see our own unrighteousness, so that we could understand how dependent we are on the grace of God. It was clear from the Old Testament that people couldn't strictly ...

Caleb

2:59 PM

@waxeagle Was it missable?

Shog9

@a_hardin dude... Don't even worry about that. I'm not gonna even bother sharing the numbers, because this site hasn't even been in public beta for a week... But trust me, it's getting enough traffic. Just do your best to ask good questions, provide solid answers, and you'll be fine.

(even, even, even, even) <-- had some extras

wax eagle

@Caleb you would have had to be blind, deaf or just completely unaware of pop culture :)

Caleb

@waxeagle I am the latter, so I think you'd have to be some combination of at least two of those.

wax eagle

@Caleb fair enough.

Caleb

Hey @Shog9! Any further input on the uncertain edit issue?

Shog9

3:06 PM

@Caleb I felt the core of the question was solid, and was reasonably preserved through all edits. Mostly I just wanted to provoke discussion on it, since the questions I'd been pointing to Meta for that reason had been almost universally bad. But if you or someone else see a way to edit for further clarity, do so!

a_hardin

I almost answered my own question, but it led to another question, so I just edited my question.

less rep, but better site :)

I knew it'd be a good thing not answering my own question. Thanks @Caleb

Caleb

@a_hardin I'm collecting a backlog of things that I need to add scripture for for @JonathonByrd :)

Jonathon Byrd

@Caleb haha

wax eagle

@Caleb lol

Caleb

@a_hardin That particular issue is something I've worked through from a bunch of different angles. I live/work/minister in an Islamic country. People I help disciple often face the choice of being ostracized from their families for their choice to follow Christ. How they can still be honoring them when the families primary complaint is that they are dis-honoring the family name is a hard thing.

wax eagle

3:17 PM

looks at @JonathonByrd's answer list, starts commenting away

Jonathon Byrd

@waxeagle why?

lol

wax eagle

18

A: What is significant about the torn curtain?

First understand the architecture of the temple. There were three chambers. A large courtyard where a very large altar lay. An indoor lobby where only the priests could enter after washing and finally the Holy room which only the high priest himself could enter. The Holy room contained the ark o...

Jonathon Byrd

@waxeagle u not like my answers?

wax eagle

no scripture or supporting refs...

a_hardin

@Caleb Would it make sense to include that in your answer? I think it'd help establish that you are an expert that has thought through this a lot more than just to answer this question.

Caleb

3:19 PM

@a_hardin The comment you link from @JonathonByrd's troll is embarrassing in it's flippancy on this topic. It turns the commandment do do something good around as a justification to do something bad.

a_hardin

oh, i forgot to post the question in reply to his comment

Caleb

@a_hardin I intend to work on that one some more. Consider that a preview :)

Jonathon Byrd

@waxeagle I don't think there's too many of those. Only the answers where I was on my iphone or I just literally don't know of supporting scripture.

Caleb

@waxeagle How will you make that comment on the ones that are "wall of text" pastes of almost nothing but verses? He does that too :)

Jonathon Byrd

@waxeagle but let me know

wax eagle

3:21 PM

@JonathonByrd will. don't have the time or energy to go through them all, that was just to top voted one. Neither of the answers on that question have any refs and both haev 18 uvs each...

Caleb

@JonathonByrd So I'm not the only one so addicted that it's practically the only thing I use my mobile web browser for?

Jonathon Byrd

@Caleb hahahaha

wax eagle

@Caleb I think I'm on record as hating those (from anyone). I want commentary. I realize that scripture is sufficient in some cases, but I feel like the vast vast majority of cases (especially because we are here) there has to be some kind of value added from the user.

Jonathon Byrd

@waxeagle Definitely I kinda feel like a wall of scripture without any user comment is a slap in the face.

wax eagle

@JonathonByrd right. If there is no application section its just a "the bible says this" and you are wrong.

a_hardin

3:32 PM

every time i answer a question i wish we had a markup for quoting bible verse

s

wax eagle

@a_hardin I'm kinda meh at this point. If its an unformatted verse I use the quote for each 'graph. If its formatted user the code mark up on each line. Its a bit of a pain, but it works ok..

Caleb

0

Q: What is the scope of Christianity now that it is in beta?

Area51 proposals and sample questions are not the final word on the scope of SE sites. Now that Christianity has gone into beta, what does it's scope look like? Are there questions related to hermeneutics being treated as on-topic? If so would this create a conflict if Biblical Hermeneutics launc...

culture proposal-scope

@a_hardin I started work on a user-script for inserting verses the other day. I'll be sure and share when I get it working. I doubt SE is going to do anything official at least before we come out of Beta, so I figure we'll have to take care of ourselves in that department.

wax eagle

@Caleb should that be cross posted on our meta?

Caleb

@waxeagle Probably.

wax eagle

@Caleb It definitely needs to be discussed on A51 because quite honestly either BH will make this site useless or we will steal traffic from it. I don't think at this early stage its a great idea for the two sites to coexist...but I'm really not sure.

Caleb

3:40 PM

@waxeagle I know it's early in our beta but I think the issue needs to be thought about because BH has collected several committers (maybe attention we are attracting or people freed up now that they have completed their commitment here) and I have the same concern that both sites can likely not exist without damaging each other, at least in the early stages we are at now.

wax eagle

@Caleb right. I agree. is @Shog9 still around?

silly work filter not rendering gravatars makes the users in here a jumbled mess :(

Caleb

@waxeagle I think he stepped out. I don't see his friendly miner silhouette.

wax eagle

@Caleb well he will be back. we should run it by him when he returns

Caleb

4:03 PM

@waxeagle Deal.

Shog9

@waxeagle Somewhere

wax eagle

@Shog9 we are wondering what the intended (if there is one) joint existence of Biblical Hermeneutics.SE and Christianity.SE is going to be?

Shog9

@Caleb OUTSTANDING! Let me know if you have questions on this.

@waxeagle I really hoped BH would launch first, and steal enough users to prevent the launch of this site... Oh well.

a_hardin

it seems to me the reasons against merging them and the definition of BH are contradictory

Shog9

I'm not positive they can't coexist, to be honest. It might be wise just to keep BH on ice for a while until we see if Christianity.SE can fulfill the needs of those committed to it though.

wax eagle

4:09 PM

@Shog9 I understand this. It makes more sense for the SE format. However this site has handled a number of questions that would be on topic there with varying degrees of success.

@Shog9 that would make sense to me. You guys obviously control when sites launch, but are users going to be up in arms when a site they committed to is delayed?

a_hardin

would it be possible to do a BH subsite of Christianity, like facebook.stackoverflow.com

Shog9

@waxeagle Possibly

C. Ross

@a_hardin hmmmmmm

that could work quite well

a_hardin

that way those who want to focus on just BH could do that, but still be extremely valuable contributors to christianity

Shog9

@a_hardin Yes, that would be possible. Whether or not that's a wise move depends on how well BH can be made a clear subset of Christianity

(and also on both having sufficient traffic to make it worthwhile)

wax eagle

4:12 PM

@Shog9 I see a possible eventual relationship between this site and BH.SE (provided both succeed) similar to SO and Prog.SE, but is that really a healthy comparison?

Caleb

@a_hardin I'm not sure that would make sense becuase there aren't branding and login concerns. Wouldn't a hermeneutics tag serve the same purpose?

Shog9

@waxeagle Progse is never a healthy comparison ;-)

But yes, I was thinking the same thing

Caleb

@waxeagle I "see" that too ... lurking under every rock and in every dark corner since you suggested the analogy. I see it as in "dread" it.

Shog9

@Caleb One or more hermeneutics tags would be a prerequisite in any case.

a_hardin

was there ever any decision if the definition of BH should continue to include "Christian"?

Caleb

4:14 PM

@Shog9 You mean like this one? hermeneutics

Shog9

Yup.

Here's my hangup: I would envision BH as a rather "strict" site, more along the lines of CS Theory, perhaps even with Skeptics-like citation rules.

Christianity is, by all indications, not going to be anything close to that.

a_hardin

yeah, I think BH should be as you described, otherwise it's just a focused christianity.se

Shog9

Enforcing strict scope and/or citation on a discreet site is hard enough - doing so within a subset of a site might not work at all.

a_hardin

true

I imagine that if BH was a separate site, I'd want to be able to reference it as authoritativeish to answer questions on c.se

Caleb

@Shog9 Good point. However that's part of my concern for it. I'm not sure the world needs another way to get answers from an "anything goes" perspective.

wax eagle

4:17 PM

@Shog9 very true. its been hard here to try to even ask for it on questions that really demand it.

Shog9

So we might actually want to launch it and see if it can gain enough traction to stand alone (with those rules)... But if it fails, we're back to trying to fold it into Christianity (where it will almost certainly do even worse).

wax eagle

and thats part of the trouble here, some of us want to see this site go in a more objective direction. Or at least some backup when answering subjective questions.

Shog9

@waxeagle That would be ideal at this point; but it's going to take a concerted effort from the community to make that happen. The site already needs more moderator effort than any other beta I've been involved in - I fully expect the pro tems to face Progse-like challenges.

a_hardin

@waxeagle yeah, i think there's a place for "I believe" but I like to back that up with why

wax eagle

@a_hardin I don't have a problem with "I believe" I have a problem with "I believe" but I can't tell you why.

a_hardin

4:21 PM

@waxeagle yep

Shog9

Speaking of which, has @PeterTurner been in here? Would love to have his input...

wax eagle

@Shog9 I don't recall seeing him in chat here. He shows in gardening chat on occasions...

Caleb

@Shog9 I have yet to see him in here, but maybe we can ask. I've been wanting to ask about his other experiences on Programmers.SE anyway.

a_hardin

wow, I didn't realize bible.cc has interlinear... brilliant!

Shog9

well, let's try this then: @peterturner - mind stopping in when you get the chance? Would like to pick your brain re: this site as a "programmers.se"-like partner to a SO-like BH... @marktrapp if you could somehow show up too, that'd be awesome.

Jonathon Byrd

4:25 PM

man... look at all that wasted rep on my acct today..

wax eagle

Question: we have 7 questions tagged hermeneutics at the moment. How many of those have
A. at least one answer that qualifies as good/great
B. Enough validity to actually be a question on BH.SE
C. Are written well enough to attract an expert

a_hardin

are you going to ask that on the BH area51?

Shog9

please do...

wax eagle

@Shog9 k

a_hardin

if we had BH, i could ask about 1 Corinthians 12:30 :)

Caleb

4:29 PM

@a_hardin Please DON'T ask that here yet :)

a_hardin

4

Q: Is speaking in tongues necessary?

I have heard that some consider it the only sure sign of having received the Holy Spirit, which would seem quite important. By what justification do those who hold to this belief consider it necessary?

salvation tongues holy-spirit pentecost

i'm trying to make sure i understand it better to improve the answer

CiscoIPPhone

Speaking in tongues is oldschool, try typing in tongues: patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2011/08/31/…

a_hardin

lol

Caleb

@CiscoIPPhone GAH! Caps-Lock alert.

a_hardin

............

wax eagle

4:37 PM

0

Q: How does Biblical Hermeneutics mesh with the new Christianity.SE site?

Proposal: Biblical Hermeneutics Question: we have 7 questions tagged hermeneutics at the moment. How many of those have at least one answer that qualifies as good/great Enough validity to actually be a question on BH.SE Are written well enough to attract an expert We are exploring the ramifi...

culture

Caleb

@waxeagle How many issues have come up in questions, answers and comments across the site that somebody could turn into great questions for BH? If the beta opens I'll be asking questions until I hit the Q limit.

Jonathon Byrd

@CiscoIPPhone hahaha

Caleb

@waxeagle Should I close my question? Does it serve a purpose separate from yours?

wax eagle

@Caleb most likely a lot...The question is could any of us who aren't pastors/biblical scholars meet their quality standards.

@Caleb not really sure. they may be better served to be merged in some way...

Caleb

@waxeagle Asking? Maybe. Answering? Probably not I.

wax eagle

4:39 PM

@Caleb I've seen maybe one or two here who could meet quality standards on a solid academic BH site.

and I know I'm not one :)

Caleb

@waxeagle Agree. If we have two posts on one Area51 and one on our meta would seem to be the two that are required.

wax eagle

@Caleb I think I follow.

a_hardin

I need to make a chrome plugin that hides my rep... I spend way too much time looking at it

Caleb

@waxeagle I have to focus elsewhere for a while, but I just deleted my area 51 question. Let's run with yours for now.

@a_hardin Get stylebot, it takes about 5 seconds to setup a rule to hide something on a given site.

wax eagle

@Caleb k.

a_hardin

4:47 PM

@Caleb Done. thanks!

now it's time for me to go to preschool. :D

Jonathon Byrd

@a_hardin hahaha send it to me when ur done

user2334

@Shog9 You called?

Shog9

Eh, Mark - we were talking about the Biblical Hermeneutics site, and if / when / how it should be launched.

Mason Wheeler

What's with the sudden storm of retags, Caleb?

Shog9

@wax made the comparison to Progse, where SO & progs share a general topic but with a different focus

user2334

4:57 PM

Well, my personal thoughts, if you want to compare it to P.SE, is that the P.SE vs. SO relationship is probably the most damaging aspect of P.SE. If one lesson could be learned from it, I would hope it's that you don't want two sites, where one is perceived as the good site where good questions are asked and the other is perceived as the OT playground to not be too harsh on the people you don't want polluting the good site.

user2334

If the topics of BH aren't on-topic on Christianity, then that's fine (like Quant and Stats or Math and Physics), but having a second site launch as a better attempt for more constructive questions... eh, might as well just shut Christianity down

Mason Wheeler

@Mark: Where did you get that perception of Programmers from? I certainly don't see it as a dumping ground for SO. It's a different site for different kinds of questions. Not "less on-topic" or "polluted," just with a different focus.

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