Here There Be Dragons

Thomas Markov

00:17

Take a quick gander at the recent Critical Role question. Should I just go ahead and open a meta about it, or should I wait and see how things go?

MikeQ

There's probably an easy way by looking at established precedents. Would a question about Drizzt or other D&D lore be considered on-topic for the site?

Trish

@MikeQ the problem is: drizzt is a finished thing. CR S3E3 is the latest episode.

BESW

Given that the current discussion in comments is (a) getting long, (b) not likely to end on its own any time soon, and (c) more complex than comments are suited to handle, moving the topic to meta seems appropriate.

It's an appropriate topic for meta. If it was showing signs of getting resolved in comments it wouldn't be necessary to go to meta, but

(Finished is not relephant; we field questions about ongoing stuff all the time; otherwise we couldn't help people with adventure paths until the last adventure in the path is finished.)

Trish

@MikeQ The question that it would be most akin to is "Legends of the Dragonlance 2 just came out. The book ens with cliffhanger. How will that be picked up?" (dated when the book actually just came out!)

BESW

Questions don't have to be answerable to be on topic.

Showing that a question is unanswerable, is itself a good answer.

Trish

00:25

Opinion based questions are by default off topic, a question how will something that has not be published yet resolve an issue is opinion based till the item is published, at which point it needs to be reworded "Book 2 ended in a cliffhanger. How does 3 resolve it?"

BESW

And I'm really baffled by the idea that this a question which cannot possibly be answered yet.

Clearly everybody at the table thinks the context is well-known enough to react immediately with a strong emotion.

That doesn't imply an unknown thing.

But, again, that's not relephant because "this cannot be known yet for [reasons] and we'll know more when [event]" is a perfectly suitable answer.

Trish

The problem is: the table is not a gaming table, it is a show. Things are not told to the audience or end on the production floor.

Thomas Markov

@BESW This is where I was leaning, thanks for articulating it for me.

Trish

In any case, I believe that this should go to SF&F.

Thomas Markov

Here’s a somewhat related question of mine about unreleased content: rpg.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/11296/…

BESW

00:29

@Trish I don't watch CR, and I don't want to. But the question describes a reaction that sounds like it's based on existing information, all the more so because it's a show. Cliffhangers just don't work if they're simply "reference a thing the audience doesn't understand," that's not how writing works.

If it's a cliffhanger, as you say, then it only produces tension if it's building on existing knowledge in an unexpected or uncomfortable way. A good answer can simply explain the existing context and how this event changes it.

If you want to argue that it's off topic because it's not a TRPG question (which would be the justification for switching it to SF&F), that's a totally different line of reasoning and not a logical conclusion of your initial argument that this is off topic because it's unfinished.

Trish

I don't think this type of show content belongs here (as I say for the 3rd time I think?), and that in the alternative, that question is opinion based because it would speculate about things that would have hit the cutting room floor or that are not yet out.

BESW

If you know that the performers are referencing unreleased material, then a good non-speculative answer would show how you know that.

Trish

I can't say if it is, but how OP phrased it implies they have watched previous seasons and that would imply they would know if it referenced past stuff. Which points to "it's not out there yet" => speculative

BESW

You're juggling at least three different "not a good fit for this site" arguments and every time somebody tries to engage with one, you shift to the next. That's... exhausting and unproductive.

Meta will give you an opportunity to write out all three clearly and distinctly, so they can be presented in their best, most persuasive light.

Trish

Meta has treated me toxically too often recently to want to engage there too much in the near future.. especially after today.

BESW

00:36

That's fine. But I, for one, am done talking circles about this topic in chat.

Thomas Markov

0

Q: Is this question about a cast reaction to an in-character utterance from Critical Role on topic?

What was so bad about Bertrand's last line at the end of C3E3? Spoiler Warning: the question does contain spoilers about Critical Role C3E3. This question asks about the reactions given by two cast members to something another cast member said in character. The critical-role-show tag states: For...

@BESW Thanks for your input.

The Oracle

00:59

3

Q: Is this question about a cast reaction to an in-character utterance from Critical Role on topic?

What was so bad about Bertrand's last line at the end of C3E3? Spoiler Warning: the question does contain spoilers about Critical Role C3E3. This question asks about the reactions given by two cast members to something another cast member said in character. The critical-role-show tag states: For...

discussion specific-question on-topic

BESW

@ThomasMarkov Sorry it got derailed into chat for a while instead of going to the Productive Place.

Trish

o.O... One can delete the voting for closure reason comment that is auto-made from the voting?

bobble

11

A: Why was this flag on incorrect custom closure issue declined

The comment was attached to a custom close reason, and the mod handling it wasn't quite sure what to do with that. As you have the option to 'delete' or 'dismiss', and your original flag was a little difficult to understand, they opted for dismiss. The fact that it was a custom close reason threw...

Trish

no bobble: I had made a custom VTC on a question, which generates a commen. Apparently someone flagged the comment and it was deleted. Which... seems odd

bobble

Yes, that's what the answer covers: that it is possible to flag a comment which is a custom close reason and have a mod delete it

You can also delete it yourself (which I'm nearly certain I've observed in the wild at some point) meta.stackexchange.com/a/345461/1017231

Trish

01:10

But... it does make no sense in that case.

bobble

Well, the problem you have then is with a comment of yours being deleted when you feel it was incorrectly so, not that it's possible in the first place to delete a custom close reason comment

As the latter is assuredly [status-bydesign] and the former is an issue for chat/meta

nitsua60

@bobble Or multiple users' flags (plus some secret sauce, I think?) can force a comment's deletion even without a moderator ever seeing it.

bobble

> If a comment is flagged by a sufficient number of users, it will be automatically deleted. There is no penalty for this. Flagged comments will be surfaced to moderators, so if you have a problem with a comment, flag it.

If the comment has no upvotes and no "trigger" keywords, three flags from users will delete it.

If the comment has upvotes, it will require more flags to be automatically deleted: one more flag for every 3 upvotes, rounded up. (For example, a comment with 1 upvote requires 4 flags to be auto-deleted, and one with 8 upvotes requires 6 flags).

121

A: How does comment voting and flagging work?

Some parts of this answer are taken from the 2009 Stack Overflow blog post Comments: Now with Flags and Votes. Note that flagging has changed considerably since that blog post. Comment votes You need 15 reputation to upvote comments. Upvote a comment by clicking on the up arrow that appears...

Trish

The better question is: can moderator restore te VTC comment?!

@nitsua60 That poses serious problems, as it can remove VTC reasons which then might or might not be accessible to vote on anymore.

bobble

Oh, you can vote for a custom reason even if it's not visible

source: has done so

BESW

01:23

The VTC comment is just a comment. It's generated by the close vote, but afterwards is its own unattached item.

Trish

urg... still, very bad aftertaste

BESW

And I think it's pretty important for sites to have the capacity to remove comments; if there were undeletable comments that'd be rife for abuse.

Thomas Markov

@BESW you mean like when they updated review queues and made comments from the bot untouchable?

Trish

@BESW but auto-deletion should be not-applicable to VTC generated ones.

BESW

I wouldn't know.

bobble

01:25

92

Q: Community deletion of comments should raise a moderator flag

At present, truly rude or offensive comments can be deleted by the community with a single flag if they contain particular words or by a group of flags on the same comment. These comment deletions occur instantly, and don't involve a moderator. In fact, moderators aren't even notified when such ...

feature-request status-completed comments moderator-tools automatic-flags

last link before I go

BESW

@bobble That sounds like one of the best compromises available without that much-needed system-wide rehaul.

linksassin

@Trish I deleted your comments on the post because your claims that CR is a scripted/edited show rather than a pre-recorded live play stream are completely unsubstantiated and inaccurate. Our on-topic definition shouldn't be influenced by your personal bias against the show.

For the purpose of this discussion CR is a live-play stream and therefore the discussion is: Should questions about the plot/content of a live-play stream be on-topic?

Trish

@linksassin Then clean up references that are left hanging together with it. You remove my part, then you need to remove the replies too.

nitsua60

@Trish Yes, it's easy to undelete.

Trish

@linksassin [disputed] - A life-play stream does not hire actors, gives them role-cards written by the producer and doesn't cut.

it is at best improvisation theater.

linksassin

01:32

@Trish Not interested in engaging with you on this. I firmly disagree however you have shown you aren't willing to hear alternative views.

@Trish Yes, sorry I got a phone call in the middle of the cleanup and forgot to go back to it. Will remove any other comments that no longer make sense.

BESW

The exact nature of CR as play-vs-performance is an ongoing question in social media discussions, because the genre of livestream and VOD are so new we don't have clearly defined categories for all the different types of thing yet.

Trish

@BESW As an example of a proper livestream/VOD, I suggest the campaigns that Wanderbot did run. They were streamed live on twitch, and there is something that CR doesn't have: situational comic relief situations where the GM is actually thrown in on the deep end because player actions go nuts. CR doesn't have that.

Thomas Markov

@BESW ¿por que no los dos?

linksassin

@BESW Agreed, they are marking completely unknown territory. Which was further confused by the shift to pre-recorded due to circumstances.

@Trish So your issue is with the style of the campaign? My campaigns don't have that kind of comic-relief pure chaos... am I not actually playing an RPG?

Thomas Markov

@linksassin If you need some comic relief chaos, I’m happy to oblige.

linksassin

01:40

@ThomasMarkov I recently gave a Rod of Wonder to the group. But if that doesn't work out, I'll let you know.

Trish

@linksassin no, it's with the setup: Hired actors that are given roles. Not people that make their own characters.

linksassin

@Trish [Citation Needed]

Trish

@linksassin critrole.com/membertype/cast-members - ALL of them are described as actors.

linksassin

@Trish That's their day job...

Trish

Critical Role is another job

BESW

01:42

Yes, every broadcast game that makes money should be paying its participants.

Thomas Markov

@Trish Liam has made all of Sam’s characters, but he’s also made all of his own characters.

BESW

I absolutely agree that CR being populated by professional actors puts it in a very different space, but I utterly fail to see how that's at all relephant to its topicality.

[goes back to gushing about Pasión de las Pasiones]

linksassin

@ThomasMarkov Laura's character Jester also appeared in a one-shot on a different channel long before campaign 2. There's also commentary from Talks about her practicing the voices at home to flesh out her characters long before they appear in the show.

Trish

My main point is, that the people at the table are not being themselves but just playing a role. They only show the side that the show wants us to see, they act too professionally and all.

Thomas Markov

@Trish isn’t “playing a role” like the title of this site?

Trish

01:46

Thomas... if you sit around a table with acquaintences and pretend to be a vampire, you are still Thomas pretending to be a vampire. CR? Those are actors acting the role of someone that pretends to be a whatever.

linksassin

@Trish There is zero evidence to support that other than the fact they work as actors. I fail to see how anyone that has watched the raw emotion and byplay between players at the end of Campaign 1 could possibly believe they are anything other than fully invested roleplayers playing a game with their friends

Thomas Markov

@Trish sorry, I’m not getting the distinction here.

Trish

@linksassin [citation needed] for the friends.

linksassin

If it were just a show they would have address the criticisms about diversity and other things that have been directed toward them.

BESW

...can we please move this to Here There Be Dragons?

Trish

01:48

@ThomasMarkov Where's the rules questions? Where's the totally off the cuff OOC questions that have no relation to the plot? Side discussions?

linksassin

@Trish The fact the game existed privately long before they streamed it?

Trish

@BESW without me, The room I don't go into.

linksassin

← 96 messages moved from TRPG General Chat

Trish

@linksassin nope, I decline that invitation, I will not go there.

@linksassin Which is exactly what I meant: I will not follow that discussion into that room. I just make it clear here because I don't go over there. Sorry if it was misunderstandable

linksassin

@Trish Ah, my apologies. I thought you were opposing the move. I'll delete my previous comment.

@Trish Not to get into a long discussion but can you succinctly explain your reasons for avoid the room? Not that you have to share. Just want to know if there are issues I should be aware of.

trogdor

01:57

I mean, it's the opt in room to begin with

Trish

@linksassin Bad Experience. And today was toxic enough on Meta, where I was accused of harassment after I asked to please stop grilling me and telling me my decisions were deemed badwrong

linksassin

@Trish Please stop calling meta toxic because other user's disagreed with you. There are many good users there trying to do their best for the site. Accusations of harassment are not ok, hence the comments were removed as soon as moderators became aware of it.

4

Trish

@linksassin The way I was talked to was deeply wounding, which does not happen every day, but as I said, the day, as in this last day.

nitsua60

yoink!

nvm

linksassin

← 14 messages moved from TRPG General Chat

Andras Deak

09:17

@BESW were these messages of yours meant to be moved here? Or just collateral damage?

BESW

Oh, looks like collateral. Thank you.

→ 3 messages moved to TRPG General Chat

Andras Deak

@BESW one more

BESW

→ 1 message moved to TRPG General Chat

much appreciated

Andras Deak

no worries :)

Transcript for

Here There Be Dragons