Here There Be Dragons

Akixkisu

15:40

Why is this rpg.stackexchange.com/a/178426/44723 still up? It isn't an answer to the question, nor does it meet good subjective criteria.

Thomas Markov

Above my pay grade @Someone_Evil

RevenantBacon

@TheDragonOfFlame Yeah, give me about 1/3 of an inch, and I'll be all set for snow.

@Akixkisu It kinda is, and it kinda does

TheDragonOfFlame

@Akixkisu how to delete something with 70 upvotes though

Akixkisu

@TheDragonOfFlame the common approach is to use a banner (mod action) that adds: Want to improve this post? Add citations from reputable sources by editing the post. Posts with unsourced content may be edited or deleted.

The banner adds context, and gives the answer incentive to change while not invalidating community support.

TheDragonOfFlame

it doesnt do anything to answer the question, only push opinions onto OP

Akixkisu

15:49

But generally there shouldn't be an issue with deleting answers regardless of the amount of upvotes.

TheDragonOfFlame

there are also 7 downvotes

RevenantBacon

From my understanding, if there are 77 upvotes and only 7 downvotes, it sounds like the only people who disagree with the answer being useful are people in this chat. I don't think it's reasonable for those seven people to decide that they know better than everyone else and delete the answer.

TheDragonOfFlame

yes but you have already established your side on this issue and the answer in question does not answer Bardics question

which I will send in here be dragons

This is the question asked by bardic wizard
How do I deal with another player/GM being prescriptive about personality traits when he has not had the same real-life experiences that the rest of us draw on when creating personality traits?

RevenantBacon

Yeah, all of these should get moved

TheDragonOfFlame

most of the answers to the question do nothing to answer this @RevenantBacon

Bardic Wizard

15:55

@TheDragonOfFlame it doesn’t. I’m one of the people who downvoted but I’m ignoring most of those answers until I’m feeling happier

RevenantBacon

It seems like it may be more of a frame challenge.

TheDragonOfFlame

@BardicWizard it makes sense to ignore them. Most of the 'answers' are just trying to tell you you are wrong or something. You didnt ask if L was right or not

RevenantBacon

Like "Why is it a personality trait"

Rather than assuming BW to be correct, they challenge that assumption

TheDragonOfFlame

that is not nescassary

bardic is not asking anything about personality traits

that is background information

Akixkisu

I think SE's comment is spot on rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/178397/… but for some reason lacks enforcement.

TheDragonOfFlame

15:58

they are asking how to deal with a non lgtbq+ GM being perscriptive about things he doesnt have experience with

RevenantBacon

Right, BW is asking how to convince their friend that sexuality is a personality trait. The answer is challenging the assertion that it's a personality trait

TheDragonOfFlame

no it isnt

I read it as BW is asking how to convince L to let them write what they want. It doesnt matter who is right, and you dont have to write something specific in your personality raits box

RevenantBacon

Yeah, it pretty specifically does challenge that assertation

TheDragonOfFlame

if the question was, are gender and sexuality personality traits? I would agree with you

Bardic Wizard

Can we get this conversation moved to dragons?

TheDragonOfFlame

16:00

but these answers are upsetting BW and that is wrong. it doesnt matter who is right. they are asking about how do deal with a personality perscriptive GM, not who is right

Someone_Evil

← 18 messages moved from TRPG General Chat

TheDragonOfFlame

you dont answer a question that wasnt asked

RevenantBacon

@TheDragonOfFlame so we don't do X-Y problems?

TheDragonOfFlame

@RevenantBacon Answer what is asked. If you want to answer something else, make a question and then write an answer fr it I dont even care but when people start to get hurt / upset something is wrong and that is what is happening

Someone_Evil

@Akixkisu In part because I'm not about to delete an answer with 70 upvotes without talking it out with the rest of the mods, or there being a community discussion about it

Akixkisu

16:03

@Someone_Evil How about using the banner instead?

It is a tried method.

Not the best reference, but the first that comes to my mind rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/148911/…

Someone_Evil

I'm not sure either of our banners are really addressing the issue with the answer (hence the stern comment), but I'll take another look at it from that perspective

Akixkisu

30

A: What should I do about a religious player who refuses to accept the existence of multiple gods in D&D?

One player should not be allowed to force his personal views on the other players. If he has a problem with Paladins, he's not going to react well to Clerics either. This player needs to realize that the game world is not the real world, and it does not need to conform to his ideas of how the re...

I think it doesn't solve it but is a relative inexpensive move in the right direction.

RevenantBacon

@TheDragonOfFlame Answering an X-Y question is a fairly common occurrence, as are frame challenges. I don't know where you're getting this "Write your own question and answer it" business.

TheDragonOfFlame

@RevenantBacon maybe I am wrong but dude be considerate I mean its not that hard to be nice. You are in chat you know this question is upsetting BW. Why do you want that?

Bardic Wizard

Look, @RevenantBacon @TheDragonOfFlame , if you have an answer can you write an answer instead of arguing about it? Please?

TheDragonOfFlame

16:09

@BardicWizard sorry

Bardic Wizard

I’ve made my position on the problem pretty clear, I hope, and all this discussion is not helping my brain rn

TheDragonOfFlame

you dont have to read the discussion

but I agree I am out

(I solemnly swear I shall not post another message or comment or answer or anything else about this question ever again)

Bardic Wizard

@TheDragonOfFlame I doubt that’s necessary and I’m sorry for calling you out

RevenantBacon

I try not to post duplicate answers

Bardic Wizard

I’m overeating to everything today cause it’s December 17 and there’s several days in December that aren’t happy days for me in general, so I’m pretty sure I’m being harsh, but I stand by the sentiment if not the wording

TheDragonOfFlame

16:17

@BardicWizard It's alright, it's not like I could add anything useful anyways. Anyone who agrees with me will still agree with me, and anyone who doesn't won't

RevenantBacon

You know what actually? I do have an answer for you, on what I would do were I in your position.

NautArch

@RevenantBacon If you really want to put up an answer, you can of course do so. But please be aware of the discussions that have happened here and the reactions to them. I'm also going to ask that once again we end this discussion here. Rehashing it again at this point is unlikely going to elicit something new.

If we want to talk about how to handle the answer brought up by @Akixkisu, then that is up to @Someone_Evil if they want to have that here.

RevenantBacon

@NautArch Answer is up. Feel free to up/down/flag/whatever.

NautArch

16:33

I'd actually like to close the question, but can't because of the bounty.

@KorvinStarmast you mind delivering your bounty?

TheDragonOfFlame

yeah, it should have been closed a long time ago, with the number of upvotes and downvotes on all the answers, its pretty obviously subjective

NautArch

@TheDragonOfFlame subjective answers are fine as long as they are supported with experience

it's unsupported or unkind answers that i'm having issues with

Thomas Markov

@TheDragonOfFlame Im not sure how vote distribution is a metric for subjectivity.

TheDragonOfFlame

if there are two evenly balanced opposit opinions, its usually a matter of opinion

Thomas Markov

@TheDragonOfFlame Counter examples:

23

Q: If Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade are counterspelled, does the attack still go through?

Booming Blade says: As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell's range. Counterspell reads: You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell. If the creature is casting a spell of 3rd leve...

22

A: Do you get advantage on the Steel Wind Strike spell's attacks because you "vanish"?

If you vanish, you are unseen. There is no condition "vanished", and it is never given a definition in the rules. This means we understand it in the common English sense. Taken from dictionary.com: vanish: to disappear from sight. If you vanish, you are unseen. That's just what the word means. ...

TheDragonOfFlame

16:44

I wonder why so many downvotes.. thats weird

though both of those are rules questions with unclear answers by RAW, so..

Thomas Markov

Doesnt make it subjective.

NautArch

38

Q: What are the citation expectations of answers on RPG Stack Exchange?

As a Stack Exchange site, answers on RPG.SE are expected to be cited and backed up, but what the expectations are exactly can be hard to find. What are the citation expectations of answers on here? What are the expectations for Objective answers? What are the expectations for Subjective answer...

support faq answers citations

TheDragonOfFlame

sort of maybe? If the rules are unclear, it is sort of opinion.... I am not sure

KorvinStarmast

18:51

@NautArch done (I disagree with closing the question, but I see that SomeoneEvil is concerned about further noise and pulled it from HNQ).

Bardic Wizard

19:17

This comment bugs me, and I’m not sure how to put it into words. Does it read oddly to anyone else? And should I respond, if only to correct their use of pronouns?

Thomas Markov

@BardicWizard I flagged it.

Bardic Wizard

The answer it’s on also bugs me, but to a lesser extent and for different reasons

doppelgreener

@BardicWizard yes, it's ascribing bad faith to you in multiple facets

"the player is the one being prescriptive ... intending to change the rules ... too offended at any sign of nonsubmission to his new rule system"

Bardic Wizard

Is it more rude/abusive or harassment/bigotry?

doppelgreener

"the player is the one being prescriptive" as a bad thing, at the same time as flatly (prescriptively) declaring "that is not a trait"

Thomas Markov

19:24

Dont attribute to malice what can more reasonably be explained by ignorance.

doppelgreener

@BardicWizard the whole question is steeped in an unrelentingly non-LGBTQ perspective in its activity. very few responses (comments or anwers) even consider the LGBTQ perspective, or that within queer culture these identifiers might actually be quite meaningful. many are aiming to challenge you from the outset that no, you cannot describe characters this way, regardless of the fact you and your group (apart from the one cishet member) fully consider them to be valid descriptors.

@ThomasMarkov that rule doesn't apply so well when it comes to LGBTQ matters, unfortunately.

@BardicWizard anyway, for that comment specifically, it is an inappropriate and unwaranted attack on you specifically regardless of which one of those it is. i have flagged it as unwelcoming.

Bardic Wizard

@doppelgreener yeah. I wish more lgbtq people would have answers or comments cause it feels like a lot of people aren’t answering from anything remotely near experience

And I’d like more than like 2 answers that aren’t challenging our perspective

doppelgreener

i keep going back to the drawing board in my head on "how would i make this question work?" and that comes down to being clear about the specific outcome you want (to use this character trait) and the specific axioms you're operating on (that this character trait is perfectly clear), but you're already doing that, and it's developing a lot of responses that actually no the DM is right so get with the program.

Thomas Markov

Flagged the answer because of the stuff I had to edit out.

@Someone_Evil can we lock the post?

doppelgreener

@BardicWizard i think you're right this is the only separator: there's no experience of dealing with this issue. there's lots of soapboxing from a cishet perspective that has no understanding of where you're coming from. there's experience cited with exploring establishing clear character sheets. there's not really experience cited in navigating this issue as an LGBTQ person with a cishet group member, which is the actual relevant experience to actually solving your problem.

and out of the voting community, the majority are cishet, so LGBTQ perspective is overwhelmingly a nonfactor in the voting.

Bardic Wizard

19:37

@doppelgreener if you’ve got a better answer i would love it if you’d put it up; you sound like you’ve had some experience and that could be a better answer than 9/12 of the answers

doppelgreener

I have no experience whatsoever with character traits in D&D 5e. The times I've made characters strongly identified as LGBTQ, it's been with fellow queer players or has otherwise met no resistance.

I don't know if I could post an answer to this that meets the standards I'd expect.

Bardic Wizard

@doppelgreener ah, ok. At this point my standards are so low that my knitting could jump higher than the bar, and knitting can’t jump

NautArch

@BardicWizard I nearly asked someone about their own experience, but decided against.

I think we just need to close the question.

It's exposed a really not nice side of the community and I'm pretty bummed.

doppelgreener

@BardicWizard On that question yes! It's largely just "you're wrong and the GM is right" and that's ... not good??? It's not an answer. It's a frame challenge, possibly, but not a helpful one in this case, unless someone thinks it is helpful because you are in fact wrong, but as you've said, it's already settled among the LGBTQ members of the group that it's a perfectly serviceable thing you're doing.

Thomas Markov

@doppelgreener It's a bad frame challenge unless framed well. My answer was a frame challenge of sorts, and even explained a sense in which the gm might have been on the right track from a rules perspective.

An answer that just total ignores the original frame isnt actually a frame challenge.

Which is what most of those answers did.

Bardic Wizard

19:44

@ThomasMarkov your answer is still one of the best of the lot, alongside @NautArch and the one that got bountied

I’d kinda like it if someone with experience could put an answer up but I honestly gave up on that hope after the first few answers

NautArch

@BardicWizard I cheated. I talked with you first so had more info that others didn't have :P

Bardic Wizard

@NautArch still. It’s one of the ones that actually had advice that was usable, while most of the current answers have made me feel like dirt for being openly queer

NautArch

@BardicWizard Totally get it. And i'm incredibly sorry about the stack's response.

Thank you @Someone_Evil

Bardic Wizard

Over the last few days, for every comment that’s made me take a break to calm down or disengage, I’ve spent 5 minutes either working on one of the Christmas presents I have to make or putting a couple stitches on a piece of needle lace.

doppelgreener

@BardicWizard BESW put this well earlier this week talking about our discussion then:

Dec 14 at 14:51, by BESW

There's at least three or four bi people talking about their experiences here, and it's not really cool to be lectured about why one is wrong about their own lives. Or put another way, if one has to look up the definition of disaster bi, one might be on the "listening" end of this conversation rather than the "explaining" end.

Bardic Wizard

19:54

doppelgreener

There needs to be room for LGBTQ people to be the authority on LGBTQ matters, not cishet people. Trans people are the authority on the trans experience, and so on. The response to the question is crummy because it is a lot of cishet people being the authority and refusing to provide space for the LGBTQ people in the room to be the authority on the issue.

3

Bardic Wizard

I just finished the lace. I think it’s a little worrisome that I’ve spent nearly 6 hours on this over the course of the week

NautArch

@doppelgreener absolutely. And I hope my answer didn't try and sound like that.

if it does, i can remove it

Bardic Wizard

@NautArch it doesn’t to me

NautArch

And I don't know if chronocidal is part of the LGBTQ community, but I flagged their last comment.

doppelgreener

19:58

@NautArch My read of your answer is that it is, in fact, actually trying to help provide a means for @BardicWizard and their group to move forward.

You take it as granted that the trait is fine, and you focus on the solution I'd be suggesting: talking so as to establish a shared understanding and get everyone on the same page. You also provide a way for the LGBTQ members of the group to navigate this pursuant to the DM's needs, if the DM has some specific needs. It's great.

Bardic Wizard

@Someone_Evil thanks a lot for doing all of this clean up on the question. There’s been a lot of stuff that has made lots of people upset and caused stuff, and mod actions were really really needed

NautArch

@BardicWizard I'm glad you asked the question, and I hope the helpful answers remain helpful.

Not quite sure what to do with about the unhelpful ones, but I'm not a mod so...

Bardic Wizard

@NautArch I’m gonna ignore the answers that aren’t helpful for now. If someone brings it to meta, I have thoughts but for now I think it’s best that it’s closed for the time being

NautArch

@BardicWizard I don't even know if it's a meta thing. The voting is so disappointing.

and disgusting

doppelgreener

@NautArch there's opportunity to learn here, which is important+valuable. like, one of my take-aways here is if i see a question about lgbtq issues, and it's a bunch of people citing no experience navigating lgbtq issues contradicting the lgbtq perspective and reasserting an identifiably cishet perspective, i should probably do something that will lead to things changing course.

NautArch

20:04

@doppelgreener What do you think our stack can do?

Bardic Wizard

@NautArch yeah. I’ve got a downvote on most of the answers but it doesn’t seem to change anything

for a while I left comments on unhelpful answers but I gave up on that a couple answers in

NautArch

And y'all clearly are much more naturally invested in this than me, but I do very much worry that a meta about this will get ugly.

but just like I don't want to play at a table with toxic people, I also don't want to be part of a community of toxic people. Chat is looking much better for me as a place to hang. I should consider spending more time here :P

doppelgreener

I think it is important for our community to look out for when a question is exploring a minority's perspective and difficulties, and when it is, to ask the question "is this minority perspective being validated in answers, or is it being talked down over by the majority?".
Further, check the frame challenges: are they starting out from the premise that the minority perspective is valid, or is the frame challenge that the minority perspective itself is wrong and invalid?
If the minority is not allowed to be an authority on their own perspective, we are probably seeing a toxic space that nee…

5

I don't have a complete answer here, because I'm not sure then what should actually be done. I'd argue it would be the right move to identify the answers that are talking down to the minority, invalidating their perspective, and reasserting the majority's perspective as the correct one, and not offering any actual assistance on the minority member navigating their problem from their own (valid) perspective. It's drastic but I cannot see keeping them being a correct move.
This would be regardless of votes because the voting community is inherently made up of the majority. The answers would b…

NautArch

@doppelgreener Fully agree, but how do we do that? I mean, I feel like some of us tried doing that early to get ahead of the issue, but it just kept going on.

doppelgreener

@NautArch I don't 100% know, but that's a question worth exploring.

In case it gets glossed over I'd emphasize that consulting with the impacted parties is a necessity in this process. The community will run into trouble if they're not consulted, or worse, consulted but ignored, because the majority will be less equipped to recognise the shape of the problem and the appropriate actions to take.

6

user15026

20:19

@BardicWizard okay I know this came out of a place of frustration but gosh it is beautiful

doppelgreener

@Ash it is, isn't it? @BardicWizard you have made a beautiful thing

NautArch

I would like to say that I'm sorry for y'all having to deal with this. I know it's nothing new for any of you, but it still upsets me. While I'm jewish, i've been largely lucky to never really experience direct antisemitism, so don't even really have a similar experience at all.

doppelgreener

@NautArch <3

We can't navigate this without the broader community's assistance, but the majority of highly active members here in RPG.SE have repeatedly appeared concertedly ready to assist us, and I appreciate that.

Bardic Wizard

@Ash thank you! It’s kinda unfortunate that i finished it because a piece of lace that size takes something on the order of hours to complete if you count from the time the foundation is pricked and the thread is couched

@doppelgreener same. It’s unfortunate that it’s necessary but it’s good that we have some support

doppelgreener

Someone prompted me recently about whether we might want a space for discussing trans issues for the people that need one.

NautArch

20:28

@doppelgreener and maybe one that's totally separate from the space we go for tough issues?

It's fine to be here, but also fine to have your own.

@Someone_Evil argh. We're getting reopen votes.

lock?

doppelgreener

@NautArch yes, it would not be this room on account of not being general-purpose, and also on account of not considering trans topics to be tough(!)

Thomas Markov

@NautArch facepalm

Bardic Wizard

I left an angry comment at the bottom of the question about not reopening it, which probably won’t work but also might make people realize that it’s not helping

doppelgreener

@BardicWizard valid

Thomas Markov

@BardicWizard I appreciate the gentleness of your soul. There was nothing angry about that comment.

Someone_Evil

20:37

@NautArch Hmm... I can't stop the review item as far as I can tell (presumably because I closed it?)

Bardic Wizard

@ThomasMarkov I’m not gentle, I’m just really good at hiding my ferocity

2

NautArch

@Someone_Evil can we just lock the question?

doppelgreener

@Someone_Evil i have vague recollection that mod votes in the review queue count for infinity votes there as well and auto-resolve the item, but it won't stop people casting reopen votes when visiting from the front page anyway

(my recollection might be wrong)

Someone_Evil

@NautArch I could, though I'd rather not do the show-of-not-faith against community members unless necessary, though the question then is whether 2 votes demonstrates whether it'd be necessary or not

NautArch

@Someone_Evil Community hasn't exactly given us reasonable doubt for their actions so far here

Someone_Evil

20:51

@doppelgreener Doesn't help either way when the review item is "not reviewable" for me

NautArch

not sure they deserve it

doppelgreener

@Someone_Evil oh, oof. yeah i guess that would be because you closed it <_<;

Someone_Evil

I'm also not sure I like that the reopen review started without any other activity despite a diamond closed it, but I guess that should be generally able to be fine

Bardic Wizard

I’m just going to state this now preemptively, but if someone opens a meta question on this question, can we submit basically the last week of this chat room’s transcript as evidence that it should remain closed? I have a bad feeling that it might be necessary but I’m hoping it’s not

Someone_Evil

21:09

I mean the chat transcript would not not be relevant for that discussion

doppelgreener

we've closed questions before at the querent's request so as to minimise harm, so it seems to me like it would be eminently valid to close it and keep it closed at the author's request

TheDragonOfFlame

21:32

It's closed? Thank goodness

That question was a ridicoulous amount of trouble, I only hope BW got something useful out of it

Bardic Wizard

21:58

@TheDragonOfFlame lets see. I got three decent answers, 9 ones that are at best not going to answer the question as presented (plus i think a handful got deleted), a bunch of comments that did not help my mental health, and a lace project that i wish i hadn’t had the time to complete

and a whole lot of backlash

but I’m okay, and i think that there was a couple good things there

I also got a practical lesson on minority-majority relations and the views of the cis-het population on the lgbtq community

trogdor

X(

NautArch

@BardicWizard me too :(

user15026

@BardicWizard That's a terrible lesson, and I'm sorry that you had to have it :(

user15026

@doppelgreener I like the idea of such a space, but I don't know if I will ever feel cozy about having such a space here.

trogdor

yeah I am not sure how well that would do in this site

specifically

Bardic Wizard

22:09

@Ash i get it weekly, on average, at school, but this is worse somehow

user15026

@BardicWizard I feel you. I've also had the unforunate experience of seeing the bad side of the internet (and SE) when it comes to queer stuff, and I'd not wish it on anyone. I trust you likely have a support network at the ready, but if you ever want to talk to a random internet human, I can offer myself as tribute, as it were.

Bardic Wizard

@Ash thanks. I’m also willing to listen to anyone who needs a listening ear if others need that too

doppelgreener

22:25

@Ash yeah we don't have the controls i think would be needed, and as an open space on stack exchange that anyone could join .........

Transcript for

Here There Be Dragons