TRPG General Chat

bobble

1:17 AM

Had to restrain myself at the bookstore today...

As-is I got All Systems Red for my sister

trogdor

3:47 AM

XD

BESW

urrgh I really want to go back and write more on my TMBD fanfic wip.

Feeds

4:40 AM

BESW has made a change to the feeds posted into this room

Feeds

5:01 AM

Cezar Capacle talks Game Design: Coming soon

posted on October 03, 2021 by Cezar Capacle

All things indie tabletop game design. Ideas, ruminations, insights, discoveries, and the philosophy of making games.

Cezar Capacle talks Game Design: The two words that changed a game

posted on January 16, 2023 by Cezar Capacle

On oracles, solo play, and the subtleties of word choice

Cezar Capacle talks Game Design: The mechanics of remorse

posted on January 30, 2023 by Cezar Capacle

On dungeons crawlers, the depths of space, and personal horror.

Hot RPG Questions

9:07 AM

6

Q: If you manifest Fission, kill yourself on the last round, and revive yourself with psionic revivify next round, is your Fission duplicate permanent?

"If you die, your duplicate remains in existence, and is for all intents you, but with two negative levels. (Once the duration expires, one of the negative levels immediately converts to one lost level; the other negative level can be removed by standard means.)" So if I Manifest Fission Wait un...

Trish

10:18 AM

rpg.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/11689/… - I am fairly sure that deserves Status-Completed... anyone sees any question that might need the aegis stuff?

Feeds

3:51 PM

The Lost Bay Podcast: watt - Cloud Empress

posted on February 01, 2023 by Iko

watt is the designer of Cloud Empress, an ecological science fantasy tabletop RPG inspired by works like Nausicaa in the Valley of the Wind, Dune, Full Metal Alchemist. Cloud Empress is both a hack and a campaign setting for the Sci-Fi horror TTRPG Mothership. The game has a striking universe both harsh and tender. In this episode we talk about the genesis and the design choices behind a game t…

Trish

4:29 PM

Ok, WHAT the F is wrong with my answer? rpg.stackexchange.com/a/204408/30306

Thomas Markov

4:42 PM

@Trish I think you lean far too heavily on your experience with other systems, I don't see any of that info as particularly relevant or helpful. Your second paragraph is about using two characters at separate times, not the same time, so I'm not sure it's relevant or helpful either.

And I think your first paragraph is pedantic, unnecessary, and offputting.

So stripping all that stuff away and leaving the material that I do think is relevant, there isn't really anything left that wasn't already covered by other answers.

Trish

@ThomasMarkov the 2nd paragraph fully solves the problem of "I have no tank" by having the players grabbing PCs that are task-appropriate. The next box is all about "One PC is not the only style allowed, and wasn never done in D&D really either"

@ThomasMarkov You're saying my fault is that I was slower?!

Thomas Markov

@Trish I'm just telling you why I downvoted, since you asked for feedback.

You either buy it or you don't. It's nothing personal, I just think this answer was a miss.

Trish

You just literally told me "I just read this part, and it is almost the same as the others, and you were last"

I don't see ANY mention of the problems of the loot debate or spotlight in other answers...

There is exactly one paragraph on a non D&D game, and the mention that Companions exist since at least 3rd edition.

Thomas Markov

I take it you don't buy my feedback, which is okay. You're free to ignore it.

Someone_Evil

4:57 PM

@Trish That seems a rather disingenuous reading of what TM said. I would assume the distracting elements are far more the reason for a downvote than it being duplicate (which would generally be more a reason it wasn't upvotes/left unvoted/comment to fix so it'd be a great answer)

Trish

The first paragraph is necessary because to me PLAYER is all the people around the table, the question asks about just Character but means to ask about PCs. NPCs are Characters too

Someone_Evil

While raising may be fair, you're spending your opening rather heavily on something which is not really an issue in the question

You're dispelling a technical ambiguity which isn't actually the source of much confusion

And by definition a player can't really play an NPC as such, but you can quickly get into waters of underdeveloped terms (and I'm not sure we need to here)

Trish

Ok, I reordered, wrote a diffferent hanger... Better?

KorvinStarmast

5:22 PM

@Trish Let me take a look. @Novak gave the answer I was going to (about 85% of it), so I'll not answer. If I have suggestions for how to improve your answer I'll leave a comment.

Hot RPG Questions

5:58 PM

5

Q: Does boosting the caster level of one spell let you grab feats with caster level requirements a few levels earlier?

Complete Arcane p.72 In the context of a feat or a prestige class requirement, a caster'level prerequisite (such as “caster level 5th”) measures the character’s ability to channel a minimum amount of magical power. For feats or prestige classes requiring a minimum caster level, creatures that us...

spells dnd-3.5e feats feat-qualifications

KorvinStarmast

6:12 PM

@Trish Trish, I'd have organized the answer differently. I ended up giving an answer anyway, since I think there are two problems and not one (as you and a couple of others noted).

Trish

@KorvinStarmast I believe the character pool or compannion migght be the more easy solutions, in that order, Gestalt might work too... though there's little to no guidance on how to do Gestalt in 5E

KorvinStarmast

@Trish There isn't any guidance on Gestalt that I can recall. Didn't see it in the DMG, or if I did I missed it. Have seen some homebrew on that.

@Trish Our friend @MikeQ ran a gestalt one shot (level 4) for us a few years ago. It was great fun, but he'd done that in 3.x and PF, I think, so had a point of reference to work from.

@Trish I offered a comment on how to take what is a good answer and organize it a bit differently. Up to you. D&D 5e basic design model is a 4 person party (plus or minus 1); if we go basic rules it's Warrior, Mage Priest Rogue (Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, Rogue in the basic rules) to cover all of the needed roles. It takes a little bit of system expertise to adjust an all caster party to handle that.

Trish

@KorvinStarmast I have seen some homebrew notes, that's the little I knew about.

Hot RPG Questions

4

Q: Can creatures inside the Rope Trick hear the sounds from outside?

The text of Rope Trick (PHB pg. 273) quotes Those in the extradimensional space can see out of it as if a 3-foot-by- 5- foot window were centered on the rope. and ...creatures that can see the window can’t see through it. Like a one-way-mirror. The description makes no mention of sounds thou...

spells dnd-3.5e hearing portals extradimensional-space

8

Q: Which skill feat is necessary to craft Gadgets?

Craft as a Downtime activity specifies that you need specific skill feats for different types of items: You need the Alchemical Crafting skill feat to create alchemical items, the Magical Crafting skill feat to create magic items, and the Snare Crafting feat to create snares. Gadgets do not fit...

pathfinder-2e crafting

Trish

6:41 PM

@KorvinStarmast I would say it's modeled for 4-6 as the main setup.

As for all caster: it depends. A group of War-cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, can actually work quite well, as the Druid is capable of doing Tank, either themselves or their AnimalCompanion can.

Someone_Evil

FYI, 5e druids don't have an Animal Companion

KorvinStarmast

They can summon a beast as early as level 3, if we use Tasha's spells. 😊

NautArch

@Trish My downvote remains. It was for the reasons Thomas said earlier, but you are also assuming situations and creating potential ideas for them - but it would be much better to see if those situations are something OP is experiencing.

KorvinStarmast

@Trish From what I have seen on both sides of the screen, most of the published adventures fit, balance wise, 4 PCs, or 5, insofar as how the action economy works out. Insofar as table management, 5 is about as far as I like. 6 to 8, which I have run A Lot, in our Wednesday groups, bogs down play in terms of spot light sharing and pace of play. I can see it being less of an issue with six invested players.

Someone_Evil

@KorvinStarmast Sure, there's a scattering of options that kinda get there, but for 5e druid tanking, Moon druid seems more relevant to bring up

NautArch

6:52 PM

You also lead with the statement "Nothing actively bans this", but it's the DMG actually recommends it in certain cases. Your line is just plain wrong.

KorvinStarmast

@Someone_Evil Since the OP didn't give us that kind of detail, I was not going to go there. I did mention wild shape which all druids can do. 😊

NautArch

I honestly can't tell what you're trying to say with your answer @Trish.

Someone_Evil

@KorvinStarmast Oh yeah, I wasn't talking specific to that Q&A, just chat

KorvinStarmast

@Someone_Evil Oh, yes, Animal Companion is a different edition. Yes. Good point.

Trish

@Someone_Evil wasn't it an optional choice? uh...

NautArch

6:58 PM

@Trish What do you mean by "group of Healers"? That's not a thing for 5e.

Even a life cleric can drop the DPS.

Trish

@NautArch it#s a concept that I encountered, less a specific class: characters that can't do damage on their own and only buff or heal other characters. Bards might be better example?

Someone_Evil

@Trish Tasha's has an option for using Wild Shape to gain a familiar (pseudo-temp), but that's a far cry what you describe

NautArch

@Trish But it's not a concept in 5e. Bards are even stronger.

I'm concerned your answer seems to cover how other systems treat this need more than 5e.

And if youre going to talk about other systems, you should really be going over using them in 5e to bring this into practicality.

Trish

Bad example wording... A goup without flight capabilities shouldn't need to fly to get an encounter done... better?

it was meant as "The group can't do this, you shouldn't confront them with it."

less the specific example, but that they just are incapable of the thing demanded.

NautArch

@Trish If you have to keep trying to find examples to support your thesis, maybe your thesis is wrong

And we don't know that they can't - in fact, I'd bet strongly they absolutely can.

I think this issue exists firmly in encounter design.

Which is what my answer is all about.

Any group will be incapable of succeeding in an encounter that isn't set up for [the possibility of] success.

KorvinStarmast

7:06 PM

@NautArch That is a part of it, yes. And we don't know what level this party is, which makes it hard for me to take my answer any further.

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast Level 4, they added it.

Trish

@Someone_Evil fixed that blunder... though summons are not Druid exclusive either. Elementals are a good way to bolster Action economy and get a tank...

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch aha, I can work with that. 😊

Trish

@NautArch Encounter design in level-less systems is actually easier than in D&D... because you have to actually look at what the characters ARE capable of.

NautArch

@Trish Okay, but that doesn't resolve the problems I've listed above.

I also don't understand how "have two pcs, pick one" helps, either.

Trish

7:23 PM

@NautArch it helps with rounding off the group and fill gaps. LEt's for the heck assume we got 3 wizards. Huge alpha strike potential, but very dependant on getting their long rest. A group of 3 fighters/Barbarians can get a lot of stuff dead but has little to no ability to do magic damage unless they get magic weapons. Allowing players to swap in their "alternate" before the adventure breaks up the monolithic party composition.

NautArch

That seems pretty idea generation to me unless you've got support for this working out in this type of situation.

I don't know if that idea would help in this case, because we don't know that's the problem.

And what if they take the 'wrong' characters anyway?

Or what's your experiencing been in having to choose between two characters? I also don't know gestalt at all, so do they share XP across all characters? Do they each get the same XP regardless of play?

Trish

@NautArch My west marches game. It worked great. If there was no wizard or cleric around, we got the elf, if the fighters were missing, we got the human.

NautArch

@Trish Isn't that individual players? Also confused as to no wizard/cleric, take elf?

KorvinStarmast

@Trish A link to a 5e gestalt homebrew might help.

NautArch

We shouldn't recommend things we aren't actually doing.

That's the realm of idea generation.

If Trish has used that homebrew and can talk about that, sure.

Trish

7:29 PM

@NautArch I can't exactly pinpoiunt the class mix anymore, but that character managed healing and ranged magical damage under one hat.

@KorvinStarmast I know that 3.5 and Pathfinder Gestalt do work, but there is no 5e Gestalt I tried.

Thomas Markov

Yeah, the header says "there's gestalt" then explains how there is not gestalt but you might be able to find homebrew, which to me is even worse than recommending something you havent tried before.

NautArch

@Trish I'm just saying you keep throwing out examples for everything that don't make sense. We keep pointing them out, and you adjust. Doesn't give me the warm and fuzzies.

It feels like your examples are driving your answer rather than building an answer and using examples to support it.

Thomas Markov

To quote one of the headers from our citaiton expectations post, "Not OK: “Try this” with no cited experience of how it works".

NautArch

@Trish And so many 5e classes manage healing and damage. Bard, Ranger, Cleric, Paladin.

Druid.

This idea of focused classes isn't quite the same in 5e.

Thomas Markov

@NautArch Certain flavors of sorcerer and warlock as well.

NautArch

7:32 PM

Yep - 5e really is fairly well rounded. There isn't a traditional Tank (which always confuses people), and the other traditional silos aren't silos anymore.

Also, I thought West Marches was more about easily bringing different people in/out and joining/leaving. Is having multilple characters you pick from a thing with that, too? And if so, how does XP/leveling work with that?

Thomas Markov

@Trish Going back through your answer again, the bullets you have at the beginning of the answer I think do a good job diagnosing what I think the issue here is, which is a disconnect between the DM's understanding of the party and the DM's encounter design choices. So it's of course not your fault that this is an XY problem.

Trish

@NautArch We used it for multiple characters as much as multiple players.

NautArch

@Trish Is that 'normal' west march?

Trish

@NautArch at least normal for our club that some of the old people would chose which char they used in a group depending on who else was there. And ending back in town as well.

NautArch

@Trish Sure, so it's not a normal West Marches thing?

Thomas Markov

7:42 PM

But the rest of it I think is either irrelevant or unsupported, or both.

NautArch

In which case, calling it a West Marches thing isn't accurate. It's a houserule you added to resolve something. THat's the type of experience based details that we're looking for.

But if that something isn't what OP is experiencing, I don't think it's helpful.

Trish

nothin in the west marches setup dictates that you have to play the same character every time. rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/120770/…

NautArch

I'm asking in general, I really don't know West Marches, so I"m asking folks who do.

Trish

They don't have a regular group of players, but pull from a larger pool each session.
Each session will be entirely self contained.
There's probably a focus on exploration.

NautArch

And what you're doing is my issue with how you're responding to your request for feedback: You're just giving ideas, putting down an example, being shown the example isn't accurate or helpful, and then just making up new examples. It feels disingenuous.

Trish

7:52 PM

@NautArch The examples chosen seem to be a translation problem. I am not making up new examples, I try to translate the core meaning of what I want to express to english with the edits. When I said group of healers, I was meaning it in the sense that someone in German would understand it: an almost non-combat-capeable character that is entirely tasked with keeping the group alive. Wich is not the same as a class. It's a concept of a character underlying the class.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch Trish is right about west marches style, I am only a little familiar with it in this edition but from older editions that was how a lot of groups played, to include the original players and play testers. Our 5e experiment ran into the usual Scheduling thing and two of the players were NOT good at "this is what we want to do next time" so the DMs (there were two of them) disbanded the group. OH well.

Thomas Markov

@Trish Yeah, that concept genuinely does not exist in 5e. No matter how you build your character to optimize for healing, if healing is all you intend to do in combat, you're going to be twiddling your thumbs most of the time.

KorvinStarmast

@ThomasMarkov Redemption Paladin called, he'd like a quiet word. 🤣

Trish

@ThomasMarkov which is why I swapped that example to "if the party can't fly, don't have them need to fly"

Thomas Markov

@KorvinStarmast whispers divine smite

KorvinStarmast

7:55 PM

@ThomasMarkov I took dodge as a bonus action ... 😮

@ThomasMarkov I am playing a paladin who almost never uses divine smite. Only on a crit. He uses level 3 for counterspell (he's a Watcher paladin) and level 4 for stuff like Death Ward before combat or the occasional banishment of summon of a steed. 2d level is a mix between divine smites in a rare occasion, or things like Lesser Restoration, etc.

Trish

@KorvinStarmast would you deem the character combat capeable without someone else to do the damage or take the hit?

KorvinStarmast

@ThomasMarkov You can take a stock Redemption Paladin and be all about nothing but healing, and taking damage for others, and almost perfectly hit the mark Trish is talking about.

@Trish He's a tank since he's got 21 AC, but he is combat capable. Yes.

he also uses a bonus action to shove things from telekinetic feat. :)

Trish

@KorvinStarmast which is where he strays from the concept meant with "Heiler"^^

KorvinStarmast

@Trish My watcher isn't the example for Healer/Heiler. The Redemption Paladin could be played that way easily.

Thomas Markov

@KorvinStarmast My point was really less about class choices and more about what combat in general looks like in 5e. It would be very rare for a healing focused character to need to spend every single one of their turns doing healing activities.

Trish

8:02 PM

@ThomasMarkov that wasn't my point really. My point was a group that is specialized on something to such a degree, that any challenge that is not that is putting them into hot water.

Thomas Markov

@Trish The stuff you say about this in your answer is the best part of the answer, by far.

KorvinStarmast

@ThomasMarkov Rare? Probably, but if you played with our Wednesday group, you'd see a case where if one of the players brought in a Redemption paladin and did just that, he would be healing people every round. To say that the group is often careless is an understatement. It's why I played a life cleric and now a Celestial Warlock.

Trish

@ThomasMarkov which is why the alternate characters came in: Having a swap character to fill the gap that was made by that excessive specialisation. Getting in one of the many healer classes or a character that can tank a hit when the others can't... is that so unclear in my text?

NautArch

8:40 PM

@Trish And my point is that 5e doesn't have non-combat capable builds.

@Trish And that's an interesting suggestion - have you done this with 5e? How did it work? What issues did you find?

@Trish You're ignoring what I"ve said earlier about 5e classes being multi-capable - is that not your experience?

@KorvinStarmast Which bits are right? That there are multiple players each playing multiple characters?

Trish

@NautArch It distinctively is not my experience that each class is equally viable and that class choices don't matter. There are many class combinations that manage to leave distinct gaps in capabilities, especially if the groups are smaller and lower level. No Druid/Cleric/Ranger with 2nd level spells, AND no Rogue? Good luck dealing with traps. Gaps appear especially with low manpower groups, as you just can't prepare for everything by being choice limited.

@NautArch It works. Players come in, start to state which characters they want to play and their classes, exchange a few words about a gap they perceive and then just start.

Rogue(Thief) that is.

NautArch

9:02 PM

@Trish I think I'm not being clear, sorry! I'm not saying that each class is equally viable and choices don't matter.

Trish

@NautArch The problem I see is that often, actually most often, there are capabilities not present in the party, especially if a class doubles up or the present classes are very overlapping. THAT can be alleviated by swap characters, and swap chars work very well there.

NautArch

I'm saying that classes perform more than one role, and it's very hard to be straight up missing someone. And if they are, there are more than enough levers in encounter design for a DM to accommodate (as well as clever players.)

@Trish How does XP work with swap characters? Do you just level up both simultaneously?

I'm asking these because these are the bits of information that really should be in the answer.

If you're going to recommend something, but clear in how to do it!

THat's what turns it from idea generation to good subjective (at least, that's what does it for me.)

Trish

@NautArch it's not idea generation, I just don't get the point across.

NautArch

Because for me it's missing real world analysis direction for someone unfamiliar with those ideas.

Trish

@NautArch depends on the GM. I have seen it with XP for both, or XP just for the present. Both do work, but XP as a party statistic worked the best for West-Marshes, as it kept all characters equal.

NautArch

9:07 PM

@Trish Then give that direction and information to OP!

Trish

@NautArch which I wasn't aware was missing because that wasn't even mentioned before!

NautArch

Scroll up - I've been asking lots of questions and saying you should add it.

Trish

Does this work?
A tricky thing in this can be XP: I have seen three styles.
* XP for only the present PCs, which can open a huge divide, and leads to players trying to swap their characters more rapidly to keep them equally viable when choosing the characters for the day.
* XP for the *Players* to all their PCs. This promotes showing up, as your PCs all come up equally, but it opens a gap to players that have little time and put them at a disadvantage.
* XP as a *Group statistic*. No PC had its separate XP count, every PC had the same XP count, which was on the group log. In my opinion, thi…

NautArch

I'm honestly not sure - if that's the experience you've had , then sure.

THat reads more like general knowledge and not personal experienc,e though.

But this is also isn't for a west marches campaign.

You're wanting to use a method in that game for a 'regular' game, and need to talk about that.

Trish

Thing is, I know the West marches style best, because we play a club environment where attendance over weeks is extremely varied.

NautArch

9:18 PM

That's great, but applying that knowledge to this issue is the expertise I'm looking for.

Not sure telling me about that knowledge, but the application of it.

Trish

9:30 PM

Let's see if this reads better and covers the gap:

A tricky question that is opened by choosing from a roster is handling XP. I have seen three styles in use, to various effects.
* XP for only the present PCs, which can open a huge divide, and leads to players trying to swap their characters more rapidly to keep them equally viable when choosing the characters for the day. This does work in my experience, but it can open a steep difference in XP on PCs. This can lead to problems if that opens a serious divide between different players' characters: some PCs can become under-leveled, compare…

wait, first one is unclear and super lonjg

* XP for only the present PCs. In the best cases I saw, it lead to most players trying to swap their characters more rapidly to keep them equally viable when choosing the characters for the day. This does work in my experience, but if one isn't doing PC swaps, this can open a huge divide between the over-leveled PC and the rest. This can lead to problems if that opens a serious divide between different players' characters: Several PCs can become under-leveled, compared to the rest of the group, and then become a felt "roadblock" to the over-leveled PC's player. This is less an issue with a …

@NautArch does that read concise?

KorvinStarmast

9:46 PM

@NautArch RIght about each player have multiple PCs, and / or access to play from a pool of PCs. You may or may not play the same PC every week (or session, whatever its periodicity) based on who shows up for that adventure. Who goes on the adventure gets decided when everyone shows up and the group figures out who to bring. Not the default way that 5e is played, I'd say.

Tonight, in real life, I can expect to play my Warlock and the party Wizard since we know the wizard player is not showing up. That's not west marches, that's 'group cohesion' as a play style.

Trish

@KorvinStarmast not the default for 5E with a fixed campaign, but the default in some RPG clubs.

KorvinStarmast

@Trish Yes! Agree.

Trish

10:01 PM

@KorvinStarmast co-playing a missing Player's PC requires to have a player for that PC though

KorvinStarmast

@Trish yes. And you can end up doing it for an extended period of time (when the sorcerer could not play for 5 months, the paladin played him). <== I was/am DM.

Trish

@KorvinStarmast that... I would require some talk with the player though. Like, discuss choices and keep them in the loop.

otherwise we get problems like... uh... Gamers 1... the barbarian...

KorvinStarmast

@Trish Our group doesn't have that problem, we have known each other for years. I can see how some groups would have a problem.

I finally, as DM, put the Rogue and the Sorcerer on hold in a town where the party often went through, and the other six kept on with the adventure. Whomever showed up got all of the XP earned that session divided by 6 - the six active characters - and the two who were left behind due to RL got that same XP pile divided by 8. Again, as our players are mature friends, no problem.

Trish

@KorvinStarmast Not exactly what I meant. I mean like, keep the player in the loop and informed what's going on in game. "We just killed the BBEG with McGuffin." or something, to inform them what happens, allow them to give input back about what the char would do... you don't always know what a character shall look and feel like.

KorvinStarmast

@Trish That depends on how much that player is interested in the week by week stuff, but yes, keeping them up to date is very much a good idea. I highly recommend it. 😊

Trish

10:08 PM

@KorvinStarmast if that doesn't go on too long, and they don't fall too many levels behind, that's ok. If it was... Vampire, Shadowrun or anything non-level based, missing out on XP would be a non-issue, the game isn't meant to be balanced

:6289493 aye. communication is key.

Hot RPG Questions

11:27 PM

4

Q: Can a player use two characters in a campaign?

I've been the DM in a campaign based in the Eberron world and the party is made primarily out of squishy level 4 characters (wizard, druid, and a bard.) During one of the combat encounters we had an issue where one of the enemies had resistance to magic which ended up making it so I had to rethin...

dnd-5e gm-techniques

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