TRPG General Chat

12:27 AM

@AncientSwordRage True. I've been there myself. Not saying I agree with the downvote, but it's a matter of perspective really

Joshua

2:07 AM

What key does the lich use to lock his chest?

Skeleton key.

AncientSwordRage

3:20 AM

@Joshua what did the undead bride wear to her wedding?

All Wight

Ben

@Joshua Is it a specific skeleton? Or just the nearest available one

Matthieu

6:36 AM

I'd rather have a Key Skeleton. Don't have to put effort into opening doors this way.

Hot RPG Questions

8:11 AM

3

Q: Is this Soul Swap spell balanced?

The 9th spell level is a home to many of the spells from comics, movies and fairy tales, because they would be game breaking if they were available early on. We get the Merlin-and-Mim duel inspired Shapechange, the Puss-in-Boots (or maybe, Apulius's Metamorphoses) inspired True Polymorph, the Sle...

Thomas Markov

11:59 AM

@linksassin Our established guidance for approaching questions missing system information indicates that we may answer such questions, provided that we make clear in the answer which system the answer applies to.

So based on that guidance, I believe that preferred course of action on Groody's answer that you deleted would instead be to ask Groody to be more explicit about which system he is answering for, not deletion.

Your comment asking "Please don't answer question that don't have a system tag but need one" is seems inconsistent with existing guidance on meta, so is there something I'm missing here?

(I dont disagree with the closure, I would have VTC'd too, I just disagree with deletion being the appropriate course of action here, though I haven't voted to undelete, I'll let you make that decision).

And Groody just edited the answer to specify the system, so it now seems consistent with our meta guidance.

Someone_Evil

I think you're right, and doubly with that edit I'm comfy undeleting

Or the edit saves me making such an edit based on a "guess", which would have been ironic(?)

FWIW I don't think you're able to vote to undelete it if a mod has deleted it

Thomas Markov

@Someone_Evil Yeah I got roasted (rightfully so) last moderator election for doing exactly that.

Oh wait, I got that backwards

I had deleted a post a mod had undeleted.

I'll find a post to try it on.

> A moderator has deleted this post and it cannot be undeleted

Youre right.

@Someone_Evil A second degree system guess

The uncertainty compounds

linksassin

12:21 PM

@ThomasMarkov Possibly I jumped the gun, and my comment was certainly over-simplifying yes. TBH my brain went "Groody should know better than to answer this" and took action before I really thought it through.

In my opinion that question just doesn't contain enough information to have a guess with any certainty. The only compelling reason for it to be 5e over any other edition is "the most played edition" which I don't think is good enough justification. We should be basing our "guesses" on information in the question not meta assumptions about what any given question is most likely to be about.

Otherwise we should just ditch the 5e tag entirely and assume anything without a different tag is 5e.

That said, you're correct that I made a mistake here. Sorry about that. Thanks @Someone_Evil for fixing it.

Eddymage

12:36 PM

@linksassin I agree: the question seems to deal with any possible d20 system, and the sole thing that suggest that it deals with DnD is the term DM. But even in this case, the edition could anything from 3rd to 5th, if I recall correctly the rules for initiative

Thomas Markov

@linksassin Agreed, like I said, I would have VTC'd if you hadnt gotten to it first.

Hot RPG Questions

12:54 PM

5

Q: How to defend allies as a Fighter at level 1?

At first level, the chance for death is fairly high especially for the squishier members of the party. A fighter comes with high hit-dice, a self-healing ability, and starts with chain mail and a shield, so has (at least potentially) one of the higher ACs and most (effective) hp of any 1st level...

dnd-5e optimization fighter party tactics

Thomas Markov

One of my goals in writing that guidance for underspecified questions was to disarm arguers of any policy to use as a beat stick. Instead of "this is right, that is wrong", I wanted to say "it is okay to feel this way or that way about a question, here's what you should do in each case".

linksassin

@ThomasMarkov FYI I rolled back an edit to the question by groody which changed "dexterity" to "dexterity bonus" as I believe this is an assumption about the system implied. If it isn't 5e it might not be bonus. If you disagree with that action let me know. I want to know what others think here since it's one of the first times our lack of a Don't Guess policy has really been tested by an ambiguous question.

Thomas Markov

@linksassin I agree with your rollback.

linksassin

Cool seems like we're on the same page then. Thanks for asking me respectfully, you were totally right.

Thomas Markov

@linksassin It's funny you should say "it's one of the first times our lack of a Don't Guess policy has really been tested by an ambiguous question", because it isn't, it's more like the fortieth of fiftieth time it's been tested, but we've successfully shifted the culture and the guidance is working as intended. You just haven't heard about it because it's usually sorted by the time the sun's up down under.

linksassin

1:01 PM

@ThomasMarkov Probably true. First one I've been involved in then.

Thomas Markov

@linksassin You just need some practice :P :P

@linksassin Also, good question about sign language, I've just done what you mentioned, "simplify it to 'they say X in sign language'", the few times I've used it.

linksassin

@ThomasMarkov Yeah, I'm not sure there is a better option but I like to be optimistic.

I know it only a small group of 10 people across two games that I GM for, but if I can make my games diverse and inclusive I'm at least doing my bit to make both the hobby and my small part of the world more inclusive.

NautArch

While I am not a user of sign language, I think the overall rule for anything is don't be a jerk or flippant about it - otherwise, feel free to include things and try things. But if you find that you're leaving "roleplaying" and entering "joking", then you've probably crossed a line.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

1:17 PM

Not sure if this is discussion-causing, so rephrasing from my comment there: why do you want to treat this group of languages unlike all others, setting it apart, even though your post seems to indicate that the local population treats it like just any other language?

linksassin

@NautArch Fully agree with that perspective. I don't think any of my players would deliberately make a joke out of it. But I'm admitting to naivety here and believe its better to at least try to educate myself first to avoid missteps out of ignorance.

NautArch

@linksassin Oh, that's definitely the best way to do it - to ask first :) But as long as you are trying with good intent to do the right thing, then that is also admirable.

I honestly don't understand all these "how to X at first level" questions. 1st level is both not different for strategies and also very different because of random death - but not in any way where a new strategy is needed.

linksassin

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica TBH "treat it like other languages" would probably be a fine answer if sufficiently supported. It did occur to me that trying to treat it differently might be exactly the wrong solution.

NautArch

I also find it interesting that the questions of how to do it for a wizard and how to protect allies don't synergize.

"stay away from the fight" for wizards and "stay close to your wizards" for fighters.

linksassin

@NautArch Yeah they are basically asking "How do I do X? but you can't use any of the mechanics that are designed to do that."

NautArch

1:23 PM

"Take a feat"...uh, it's first level. So I should restrict my character build for a 1st level need? Um, no.

Grappling and dodging - always a terrible choice when you've got one action at first level. Choosing not to damage or kill when that's your primary job is likely going to get someone killed.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@linksassin Well, it's more of an attempt to clarify your reasoning for wanting to go out of the default approach in the first place.

linksassin

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Largely because I want to be sensitive to the very real people that rely on it. I don't want to include it just for entertainment value or just another worldbuilding point but to present a diverse world where all kinds of people are represented in a way they find respectful.

Thomas Markov

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica To be fair, sign language is different from spoken languages. I think what we're looking for here is a way to preserve that perceived differentness without using a harmful caricature.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@linksassin Very real people rely on sign languages. Very real people rely on spoken languages. Very real people rely on written languages.

NautArch

1:38 PM

Honestly, I don't see why asking how to do something that may be perceived as problematic because of the users should be an issue.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@ThomasMarkov Sign languages certainly have some different features than spoken languages (e.g. directional-hanging pronouns, whatever they're called), but once you get past the initial surprise of a different mode, you'll find that just like other languages they still have vocabulary, syntax &c.

NautArch

If you don't happen to see it as an issue, and you are someone directly related to that group, then I think you've got a good answer path for links.

linksassin

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica I don't know how to explain to you why it matters to me to get the input of people who use/know sign language before trying to use it in my game.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

It seems to me very much like a case of 'how do I RP non-Latin languages', at which point it's very unclear why non-Latin languages are treated differently.

NautArch

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Because speakers of non-latin languages aren't necessarily also in a marginalized group?

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

1:41 PM

@NautArch Errrrr, it varies.

Thomas Markov

@NautArch Aside from Common, I'm pretty sure all the languages in D&D are non-Latin :P

NautArch

The point remains that asking how to do something respectfully shouldn't be a problem.

Thomas Markov

I know @Exempt-Medic has some interest (professionally, I think) in linguistics, I'd like to hear their take.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@ThomasMarkov I don't know, of the bits and pieces of AD&D languages I've seen, they seem suspiciously Anglomorphic, except with funny fonts.

linksassin

Minorities and marginalised groups (such as sign language users) are often included in media or pop culture in a way that reduces them to a token, stereotype or humorous entertainment. I don't want to contribute to that culture. Therefore when I want to include something that I don't know a lot about I want to learn how to do it respectfully.

6

NautArch

1:44 PM

^And being respectful is not something that we should have to defend.

6

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@linksassin Well, not sure if it counts as a matter of respect, but it might be close: you wouldn't say 'the local settlers use a spoken language', you would actually name which of the spoken languages they use, right?

linksassin

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Yes. In this case it is the language of the Forestfolk. Perhaps "Folkian" I haven't really come up with a in-universe name for it yet.

I'm not saying the fictional sign language is an exact replica of a real world one. But I know how to respectfully role play other spoken languages (e.g. don't use offensive stereotypes or accents). What I don't know is if a parallel exists for sign language. Hence the reason for the question.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

Well, I'm not sure if it's obvious, but one thing to keep in mind that sign languages are not pantomime (though 'iconic' morphemes do exist which are close). So . . . your options for depiction (instead of translation) boil down to either pantomime (inaccurate) or the visual equivalent of what the Sims do with spoken languages (also inaccurate, but more obviously so).

@linksassin I suspect you wouldn't like to use either approach with a spoken language, based on what you wrote above.

linksassin

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica This is exactly the sort of thing I'm looking for as an answer.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@linksassin I . . . am unsure if I could figure that out from the question as asked. I'm actually unsure if maybe this is an XY problem here.

Because the question pretty much started with the assumption of a non-normal treatment of one group of languages.

linksassin

1:56 PM

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Does your definition of roleplay not include the depiction part? I'm not really sure how that isn't what my question is asking.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

In relation to your idea of just making up some conlang bits: beware of porting over your native language's syntax and other features to your conlangs, even despite a cross-medium shift.

Thomas Markov

Not gonna lie, while it may be difficult, possibly unfeasible given your current life situation, "learn sign language" might be the "best" solution, for some meaning of "best".

linksassin

@ThomasMarkov Quite possibly. My current solution is to learn a couple of key phrases. I've never been great at learning languages though.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

And then suddenly your Forestlings will have British accents (or some other Terran ones). ^_^

(It's not necessarily a *bad* thing, but you're essentially proposing a translation convention.)

linksassin

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica That's not quite what I'm concerned about. I use accents to represent the various groups when I roleplay them. But I try not to make the combination of accent and character seem like I am making fun of some real world group.

This isn't a conlang question, it's a roleplay one. If the answer is "People who sign would prefer that non-signers don't pretend they can sign." then I might rethink this worldbuilding element. But I'm hoping the answer is more like "As a sign user I find X and Y offensive so avoid doing that, but you can represent is by doing Z". Or something to that effect.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

2:09 PM

@linksassin To elaborate, what I meant is that you are likely limited to either learning one of the real-world languages, or making one up. But if you go for the former, you effectively followed the translation convention similar to 'when you speak Elvish in-game, you speak French as a player', which some groups like and some don't. (You should of course consider your party's stance on the matter.)

linksassin

2:20 PM

None of my group is Bilingual AFAIK so the translation convention isn't really feasible. At best we do "this accent correlates to this origin". I kind get what you're saying but I don't really understand how that relates to being respectful of a marginalised group by not representing them purely for entertainment value.

What I'm looking for is "Here's a good way to roleplay that the character is speaking sign language that is both inoffensive to actual sign language users and effective at conveying the distinction of communicating through signs at the table"

Thomas Markov

I sometimes pretend I can use diverse accents with the NPCs I narrate, but it's really just american southern trying to do a mid-atlantic accent, with gruffness increasing as the character's occupational proximity to bartending increases.

2

linksassin

@ThomasMarkov One of my players cut me down a bit last session. One of the PCs has a follower who he rollplays with a Russian accent. That player was missing so I tried to play the part of his follower for a bit and was met with "Who's that?" "Davorsk" "Oh, I couldn't tell because that wasn't a russian accent".

Exempt-Medic

@linksassin Whereas I'm wondering whether you should change the way you treat other languages. I'll throw in words of Elvish, Primordial, etc... into interactions similar to how Lord of The Rings does at times

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica It's interesting though that some sign languages actually include a lot more pantomime than others. And there's also some research into code-switching between the two in various cultures

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

2:43 PM

@Exempt-Medic Just as some spoken languages seem to contain more onomatopoeia than others. But that's not the same as a language being fundamentally based on it.

Exempt-Medic

Oh, of course

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

There's also the consideration of when people see iconicity only after being explained it. E.g. UGL's 'bed flexing' gesture looks very much like pantomime after you know what a bed is shown as, and what the implication of the movement is.

(Side note: I find the English translating of 'gesture' as 'sign' in language names somewhat puzzling.)

Exempt-Medic

Yeah, there's a lot of stuff on gesture v.s. sign and how that translates across languages and how useful and accurate the terms are

AncientSwordRage

@linksassin is it possible that your concern is that it's easier to wave your hands about trying to mimic sign language (and end up with a caricature accidentally) whereas speaking gobbledygook is obviously not the same as a foreign spoken language and would clearly be seen as disrespectful?

linksassin

@AncientSwordRage That's a reason summation of part of my concern yes.

AncientSwordRage

2:52 PM

Good to know I'm not completely off the mark

Exempt-Medic

I at least think it'd be fine and good to learn some ASL and incorporate that into the story/world. Quite frankly, I trust you not to make a caricature out of it and, at least in my experience, people have been very happy when I've included bits of their languages in the things I do

I used to be very worried about people thinking I was appropriating languages because I felt I needed to know the details and be as accurate as I could, but every user I've talked to has been very grateful for my respect and enthusiasm to learn and learn well

Whether that was Chinese, Japanese, Mongolian, ASL, or anything else

linksassin

Thankyou, that's useful encouragement.

Exempt-Medic

For context/experience, my sister was/is fully and partially deaf and so the family all learned some sign language, though she then got a cochlear implant and hearing aid. Sign fell out of use for her and the rest of us, though she started learning it again senior year of highschool and is doing so now in college. My linguistics advisor knew sign language and most of her research was in the intersection of physical disability and hearing impairment

Thomas Markov

Unrelated, but Glorfindel just bumped this question, and there's really only one answer that I think is worth keeping.

Exempt-Medic

So I'm gonna go ask the people I know are more qualified than me on this matter for their thoughts

Thomas Markov

3:05 PM

SSD's answer is the only one that actually points out in the rules where the stuff is explained.

linksassin

@ThomasMarkov They are all attempts to answer the question. Therefore there would be no ground for deletion. Are they great answers? Not really. But they do answer the question. I see no benefit in deleting them.

Thomas Markov

@linksassin Could use a post notice or three though.

AncientSwordRage

@ThomasMarkov that might help

Feeds

Needles & Nilbogs: Embroidery photos!

posted on October 06, 2022 by Bardic Wizard

If you see this on Thursday, it means scheduling posts works! (If you see this before Thursday it means I screwed up.) The reason I’m scheduling a post is because I’m gonna be completely offline Tuesday through Friday for senior retreat (both very excited and very worried, none of my friends are going on this one), and I don’t want to miss two weeks in a row. I’ve been doing some em…

linksassin

@ThomasMarkov Not likely to see a lot of traction on an answer from 2014. And the expectations were different then but I guess so.

Thomas Markov

3:15 PM

The three short answers are from afk users, I'd usually comment but seems pointless when they havent logged in in forever.

@linksassin Sure, but it does send a signal to readers about how the expectations are somewhat different.

Which IMO is useful.

AncientSwordRage

3:48 PM

@ThomasMarkov yeah I would consider doing that on our stack, but not all my fellow mods on that stack would agree and different stacks work differently to others

Thomas Markov

3:59 PM

@AncientSwordRage it probably helps the culture drift in that direction when you already have a small group of users who feel that way answering a large portion of your questions.

AncientSwordRage

@ThomasMarkov yeah that's a good point, it's the little things like that which nudge people the right way

Like those notices on Wikipedia saying if an article needs citations/out of date etc.

Thomas Markov

4:17 PM

@AncientSwordRage I just meant that the answers that are posted can guide expectations one way or another. Horse and cart push and pull one another.

AncientSwordRage

4:47 PM

@ThomasMarkov yeah!

Thomas Markov

6:31 PM

By the way, it is Fat Bear Week!, go and vote for the fattest bear in Katmai National Park.

2

AncientSwordRage

6:54 PM

@ThomasMarkov I love this

Hot RPG Questions

7:20 PM

3

Q: Can Pact of the Chain Warlocks forgo one of their attacks to not break Invisibility?

I was wondering if you use the second bulletin of the pact of the chain if it would break the invisibility spell. Pact of the Chain feature in question Additionally, when you take the Attack action, you can forgo one of your own attacks to allow your familiar to use its reaction to make one atta...

dnd-5e warlock familiars invisibility

Thomas Markov

7:35 PM

I mentioned it the other day, but I'll mention it again, do we really need intellectual-property and licensed-property? I can't suggest the synonym because tag rep (and that system is borked anyway), but it seems like a reasonable "just do it thanks mods" request.

But I can ask meta if someone thinks that would be better.

Hot RPG Questions

9:03 PM

10

Q: How to respectfully roleplay sign-language without knowing it?

In my exploration based 5e game the group are about to enter an area where the local population (known as Forestfolk) communicate largely through sign language. I want to roleplay this effectively while remaining respectful of real languages and real people who rely on sign language every day. A ...

dnd-5e roleplaying languages

Hot RPG Questions

9:59 PM

3

Q: Natural Armor vs Mage Armor, which takes precedence?

I'm already aware of the interaction between Mage Armor and features that grant an alternative AC calculation such as a Monk or Barbarian's Unarmored Defense, or simply wearing Armor. However I haven't been able to find any definitive answer on how it interacts with a Tortle's Natural Armor or wi...

dnd-5e armor-class

Transcript for