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12:02 AM
@Axoren not sure that counts as magical means lol
 
12:15 AM
[grumbles about how rock-paper-scissors doesn't work if rock can't beat paper OR scissors]
 
@BESW wait, what's paper in this scenario?
 
Magic.
 
... then what's scissors?
 
@Axoren to be fair, I could do far worse things with road signage than just flipping it
 
12:19 AM
Though technically if you dropped a fist sized rock on a piece of paper, the paper wouldn’t break
 
Usually psionics.
 
@BESW something happen?
Or is this in response to magical tracking versus the ranger
 
Yeah, it's the proud D&D tradition of telling non-magical classes "Yes, you're very awesome... until a wizard shows up, then you're benched."
 
Rangers are magic classes....
 
Rangers are Aragorn because that's the only fantasy character WotC can think of when writing Ranger content.
 
12:34 AM
We're talking about a non-magical class feature, so the "magic beats non-magic" problem applies.
 
@BESW not being able to be lost is magic..
@Axoren true though. Is there any others in mainstream fantasy though?
 
There are a bunch that are based off of D&D instead of being original creations
I don't think I've got a good model of a Beastmaster that isn't just a character in an RPG
 
@Axoren nah, Gandalf multiclassed ranger to get shadowfax lol
 
Part of the problem with the 'ranger' concept is that Aragorn is a military ranger: light infantry specializing in stealth and mobility.
The "loner in the forest" ranger shares some of the same talent pool but is completely different in tone and theme.
Aragorn's loner aspect isn't a quality of the military ranger; it makes him stand out as not doing his rangering job properly (because his noble blood makes him angsty).
So you wind up with a class that mashes together MIA spec-ops with such disparate sources as Natty Bumppo, Crocodile Dundee, Tarzan, and San.
 
Spec-ops Tarzan is a great way to describe many of the Rangers that have graced our tables.
 
12:49 AM
I think Natty Bumppo and Tarzan are particularly cogent case studies, as they tend to showcase the "dances with wolves" problem with rangers.
@Axoren I'm a fan of "what if [trope] but also [unrelated cliché]" character/worldbuilding, but D&D struggles with rangers because they've stacked SO MANY unrelated tropes and cliches on top of each other that it's become its own thing without gaining a clear identity. Not that rangers are unique in this regard.
 
1
Q: Blinded creature trying to fly

Ettina KittenHow does being blinded affect a creature who is flying, such as an aarakocra? Would a blind aarakocra risk crashing into things if they tried to fly?

 
I just want Monks to have an identity that's not Punch Fighter with Ki.
 
@HotRPGQuestions exactly the same rules as for Blinded creature trying to walk
 
@TheDragonOfFlame He can't hear you, he's a robit.
 
> You are particularly familiar with one type of natural environment and are adept at traveling and surviving in such regions.
I would love for D&D to say that intimate familiarity is magical, but that's not the case.
 
12:56 AM
> You really like snow. I bet you'll never get how much. Welcome to a Desert Campaign.
 
(I'm on record that D&D seems to be written by people who have never had an experience of faith that wasn't mediated by pop culture.)
 
@Axoren well, the Arctic is a desert XD
(it's just that whatever snow makes it to the ground never goes away)
 
Note to self: if I ever write a system with classes, start every class by asking how their specialization ties them in bonds of reciprocity and obligation to a particular community.
 
@BESW but what if they travelled between communities
and delivered books
 
Community isn't always local, or location-based.
 
1:10 AM
@BESW that's a good point
 
A traveling librarian often turns their route into a community. They're also usually financed by a person or group which isn't on their route.
eg, the traveling librarians of Kentucky were originally funded by the Louisville Monday Afternoon Club (and then the Kentucky Federation of Women's Clubs), but due to lack of access to certain books, the people on a given route would often make books for each other by clipping articles out of magazines and writing down their own recipes and guides.
 
@BESW that is awesome
I absolutely love that
About rangers, the latest one I thought of is sort of a sword-user for fey but I can't think of a similar character?
 
4
Q: Do you need to roll when using the Staff of Magi's spell absorption?

SamuelzilaIn the Staff of Magi's description, it is written: Spell Absorption. While holding the staff, you have advantage on saving throws against spells. In addition, you can use your reaction when another creature casts a spell that targets only you. If you do, the staff absorbs the magic of the spell,...

 
@HotRPGQuestions only if you happen to be on fire
 
1:19 AM
@BESW I do need to watch more Ghibli
@BardicWizard I have a habit of writing overly long characters who end up being level 1
@BESW thanks for sharing that
 
@AncientSwordRage San, the titular Princess Mononoke, is a human woman who was literally raised by wolves. Spears and long daggers are her preferred weapons.
 
@BESW I've absorbed some info via cultural osmosis, but never watched it myself
Wife is a big Ghibli fan, and I'm sure I can convince her to watch it
 
It's a very good film, but a lot darker and bloodier than Ghibli is usually known for.
 
@BESW that was my impression also
 
....I suspect that people may think "ranger" means "one who fights from distance" rather than "one who traverses an area."
 
1:24 AM
@BESW I've not considered the former defnition
the first 'ranger' I encountered was Drizzt
 
@AncientSwordRage ...what about Jedis for your sword-wielding inspiration?
They're blade-carrying spec-ops with light magical ability and a preternatural affinity for their environment.
 
@BESW lacks the fey aspect
I'm thinking of someone who is almost an emissary
I was thinking more similar to Link from the Zelda series
 
Minbari Anla'Shok from Babylon 5.
 
??? Someone in my party just cast Feeblemind on themselves as a precaution against Tasha's Hideous Laughter.
 
@BESW you keep naming series/films I should watch
 
1:28 AM
They were already out of spells and decided to go into battle beating people with a stick.
 
(Also Bill Mumy getting a well-deserved chance to be awesome.)
 
I don't think they realized it lasts 30 days or longer
 
@Axoren it sounds like the character didn't lose that many Int points
 
(Minbari are ELVES. IN. SPAAAAAAACE.)
 
I mean, it worked.
 
1:33 AM
@AncientSwordRage B5 can be painfully slow, especially at first, as it stretches about 15 episodes-worth of really good content over 22-episode seasons Because Syndication. And the secondary characters tend to be much more interesting than the main characters. But it's got some GREAT secondary characters and the worldbuilding is often interesting. If you like DS9, give B5 a shot, it fills a very similar place in TV history.
 
But so would Counterspell have
 
@BESW I often wanted to make a version of Betrayal at House on the Hill, but IN. SPAAAAAAACE.
@Axoren not as fun
@BESW I do like DS9, but I never finished watching
 
@AncientSwordRage ...What about Aquaman?
 
Fianna seem like a good real world example
@BESW yeah that's not bad an example
invariable it looks like Fianna inspired Aragorn
> A fiann was made up of landless young men and women, often young aristocrats who had not yet come into their inheritance of land.
 
@BESW everything’s better in space. Except epidemic diseases
Epidemic diseases are probably worse in space, actually... hmm, wonder if I could make that point on my history final
 
1:50 AM
@TheDragonOfFlame eh I mean it's not actually automatically easy to do XD buy if you never have trouble with it all the better
@Carcer yeah exactly
 
2:16 AM
@AncientSwordRage I thought drizzt was a rogue
 
@TheDragonOfFlame I was that GM. How would you suggest balancing an encounter so that someone who has a high chance of hitting and deals a large amount of damage, doesn't overshadow characters with moderate to low chances of hitting and low damage? If Troggy went first, he'd get to try and hit an enemy. Then his brother would take a turn and all the enemies would die.
If Troggy didn't get to go first, he would often not get a chance to go at all.
I could make enemies that were durable against his brother's attacks... but then Troggy could only hit them on a 20.
I could make enemies that Troggy could kill... but then his brother would be guaranteed to one-shot them.
We’re talking about characters with an effective 10 to 15 point difference in their to-hit, and at least 20 points difference on damage. And they were the same level.
This was an extreme case, and it stood out because it made me realize how much work I had been doing to customize encounters for no benefit, only to avoid a problem. I knew how to do this, I was good at it. But the tools weren’t enough.
My very first D&D game ended with a rogue and an NPC-class "expert" (nothing but skills and mediocre base numbers) and that was fine, we had a lot of fun. But there was a period in that last campaign where the only way to give Troggy and the sorcerer a chance for anything more than a participation trophy, was to make at least one enemy in every fight have a permanent freedom of movement effect.
There was another period where I couldn't figure out anything, because the sorcerer and the warlock were both targeting touch AC but the warlock's attacks were massive no-save damage and the sorcerer's attacks were base-level damage that often allowed a save for half.
And that dumped Troggy even further out in the cold because he was targeting normal AC with an even lower to-hit modifier, but it's very hard to get touch AC higher than normal AC, so I had to choose between the warlock and sorcerer hitting every time so Troggy would have a chance to hit, or Troggy never hitting anything so the warlock and sorcerer might miss.
This was the campaign which taught me how blessed 4e's standardization was, and set me up to whole-heartedly embrace abstract-universal systems like Fate.
 
2:56 AM
@BESW people may have misunderstood . I wasn’t referring to combat, simply play time
 
In D&D those are roughly equivalent.
 
@BESW that’s not really true dude.. in games I play 2 and a half hours aren’t combat half an hour is
 
that's dependant on system though
I assume
 
3:14 AM
@trogdor in d&d 5e
 
we were playing 3.5
one of the only things 5e has done signifcantly better than 3.5 was certainly the combat time being shorter
 
Oh alright (3.5e is ok but... 5e is better)
 
4:05 AM
I don't really like either system all that much
if I were inclined to rate them I suppose I would rate 5e better
but it reminds me of 3.5 a lot and that detracts some points XD
 
@trogdor different edition fan? Or different system fan
 
uh well I kinda like 4e better
but honestly I like other systems a lot better than D&D
XD
I like Golden Sky Stories and Fate and Lady Blackbird a lot
probably a couple others I'm forgetting in there
there are just a lot of systems that tell stories better than D&D tends to, or more accurately have a better support system and setting for telling stories
D&D tells stories fine but it makes you do a lot of the work and pretends it's helping more than it is XD
although I will admit for the tabletop combat element it does better than a lot of games, mostly talking about 4e in terms of personal preference
but I find I can satisfy that need with video games and such
whereas the story telling aspect is something I can only do all that satisfyingly with other people and other RPG systems just work better for me and my usual group/s
(also I just like trying new systems too much to get stuck only playing D&D especially since I've probably still spent more time on one edition or other of D&D than any other single system)
 
 
1 hour later…
5:20 AM
@trogdor GSS is amazing in what it does, yes :D
 
6:02 AM
I'm glad you liked it so much XD :)
 
6:15 AM
@TheDragonOfFlame I thought he was a mix?
 
6:53 AM
I’m cramming for finals, and to remember element properties for chemistry I’ve started phrasing them as Fate stunts
4
For instance: “Because [Fluorine] is a [halogen], it gets [stable] when [it gains one electron]” or “because [sodium] is [an alkali metal], it gets [reactive and explodes] when it [is dropped into water]”
I fully expect that I’m either wrong on fate stunts or on chemistry, but I hope not
Especially because chem is the class where the final matters the most — it’s something like 25 percent of the grade compared to 20% for everything else
 
@BardicWizard I love it.
 
I approve of this
if only I knew what Fate was in High School
 
7:43 AM
or was really anywhere near that creative about studying
 
8:00 AM
5
Q: Can a Sorcerer multiclass use Metamagic on a Ritual Casting?

MarkI have a character who multiclassed from a Sorcerer into a Druid. She has the Subtle Spell metamagic, and has prepared the Purify Food and Drink spell via her druid spellcasting feature - this spell has the ritual tag. She is a guest at a feast, but some nefarious individuals are also present the...

 
 
4 hours later…
11:43 AM
@kviiri Congrats!
 
 
1 hour later…
12:50 PM
@Anaphory Thanks!
 
 
2 hours later…
2:29 PM
Good morning! I have all the energy in the house this morning because I have caffeine in me!!!!!!
(It’s not enough energy though, cause it’s never enough energy! More is always needed for studying!)
 
3:03 PM
@trogdor really? Wow. You and no one else I have ever met
@BardicWizard ha
@trogdor I have never played 4e but everyone I’ve heard talk about it says combat is ridiculously slow, character creation sucks, and the system was an all around disaster. (Though, Matt Colville liked it I just remembed, so you aren’t the only one)
 
How often does it happen that a meta answer by a moderator has this kind of down/upvote ratio?
I don't think I have ever seen something similar.
 
3:39 PM
@Akixkisu I wouldn't be surprised if Mxy had some like that.
 
@NautArch that would indeed be unsurprising.
 
@BardicWizard true words
 
@TheDragonOfFlame There are quite many of us here. Trog, BESW and myself all like 4e with some caveats. I prefer it a fair bit over 5e although I think it has legitimate issues, especially prior to overhauling of monster math in MM3.
In original DnD 4e combat was indeed rather slow, mainly because defenses, to-hit and HP scale with level, while damage doesn't (to nearly the same degree).
It wasn't too bad at low levels but at epic levels, you'd spend ages blasting away at Orcus' 1500 hit points.
With MM3, they did the math (THEY DID THE MONSTER MATH)
But anyway. 4e doesn't suck, it just became an acceptable target because it was rather different, which prompted angry reactions, and those turned into a feedback loop.
6
 
4:00 PM
@TheDragonOfFlame chalk me up as a 4e fan
I'm just a sucker for using the latest edition of things, so I'll tolerate 5e
 
Also. It is the Independence day of my glorious native land, Finland: to celebrate I will share an instrumental classic to her honor.
 
@kviiri yeah it was very much my perception
 
There are a few really nice things in 4e I really miss in 5e. My top pick would be "Defenders", probably
Everyone having powers is also nice but it's ofc a lot about implementation on how well that works out
 
@kviiri I loved that, as well as targeting
scowls at 5e
 
4:20 PM
@kviiri XD
 
Welp it’s only 8:30 am on a Sunday for me and I’m being productive!
Caveat: productivity does not apply to actually studying, just to procrastinating in a manner that is productive
 
5:18 PM
3
Q: Does Witch Bolt deal the added 1d12 damage on the turn that it's cast?

A_Wandering_WizardAssuming that Witch bolt is cast at 1st level and hits the target would the target take 2d12 damage in that turn because its the beginning of the spell's duration and on each of your turns for the duration, you can use your action to deal 1d12 lightning damage to the target automatically. or do...

 
 
2 hours later…
6:48 PM
@HotRPGQuestions if you have two actions per turn, do they both have to be used on witchbolt?
 
17
Q: Do actions granted by the Haste spell count as "your action"?

Medix2I asked a similar question "How do the Haste spell and Turn Undead interact?". Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems that the answer there says that even haste's action is limited by Turn Undead, that Turn Undead controls not just your action but also haste's action as it is still an action. I'm wonde...

 
7:14 PM
@Someone_Evil I thought we may already have a question about that
Seems like it does answer the action surge case if only loosely.
Seems like the ambiguous rules would require GM fiat.
 
7:36 PM
I’m working on a project, and I need a good holiday and TTRPGs pun or caption. The project is a cross stitch chart with a d20 (the number facing up is 20) in a circle (which is patterned as either a ring or a wreath). I’m not sure what to do for a caption though. I had thought about “5 golden rolls” or “Deck the Halls with rolls of 20”, but I want to think about other options
It’s going to be part of a sampler for a family member and it’s going to be repeated at least three times, so I need at least one other caption
(the caption is going to be stitched in there too so it looks like a printed shirt or something)
 
@TheDragonOfFlame yeah I'm aware a lot of people hated it, some of them didn't even bother to play it at all
IMO character creation was rad XD yes combat took some time, guess which other editions I can say that about?
Both the other ones I've played is the answer
Though I have only played 5e for part of one campaign and the combat was a little faster in it than 3.5 and 4e but not by like, enough for me to be all that excited about it
And it was only at low levels which wasn't where 4e started actually taking long to end fights (4e did have an issue with that at higher levels)
But yeah anyway, I found at the time that there were plenty of people apparently ready and willing to condemn 4e as a system simply because it bothered to change the formula a little
Believe me when I say I am aware that it has plenty of detractors
 
8:01 PM
@kviiri yeah there are legitimate reasons to dislike the system for sure, the problem mainly comes, at least for me, when someone took a glance at how different it looked from 3.5 and decided to hate if forever and be very vocal about it with people who played it and liked it :/
 
@trogdor Yeah it's the usual deal.
Hate sinks are popular, sadly :(
 
Tis true
 
It's entirely legit to look at the system and decide it doesn't look like it's for you, it's entirely valid to try it and decide you don't like it
 
@trogdor yeah, there are some people who just can't expand their horizons
 
8:04 PM
I call BS when you feel the need to trash it constantly without trying it to the faces of people who enjoyed it for ... I dunno D&D street cred?
 
@trogdor I think a lot of people get...vested in the D&D setting more than the system, even? and got really thrown off by the setting changes in 4e
 
Eh I seem to recall more people being upset about the mechanical and visual changes
Some people took offense to the whole "powers as your moves" thing
Which I felt was pretty cool
It was one of the more streamlined elements of the game
Some people also thought the classes were all the same because they all had powers
 
@trogdor yeah, there are people who have trouble distinguishing the classes in 5e even, at least AFAIR
 
Which is just,... proof to me the didn't delve very deep into the mechanics
 
@kviiri 3.5 was kind of extreme in that transiton from editions hate sink.
 
8:10 PM
I won't discount that but so was 4e
XD
 
I didn't experience 4e players to make a vocal hate sink about 5e, but a lot of the 3.5 players made one.
 
There were a lot of people who thought 4e was tooooo different
@Akixkisu oh I misunderstood you there
I thought you were talking about people making a stink about 3.5 when it came out
 
Yeah me too :D
 
Yeah, I just disagreed with the "usual" wording, I think it was unusual.
Yeah, I could have worded that less ambigious :)
 
Which I didn't experience but which, as I understand it, dud happen to some degree
 
8:13 PM
@Akixkisu I don't mean it's usual in terms of DnD editions, but in terms of how hate sinks work.
 
The teacher who runs the ttrpg club at my school Still thinks that anything after OD&D is a waste of time
 
Lol
 
seriously
 
@BardicWizard lulz. have they played anything that lies outside of the D&D lineage, if you will?
 
They are entitled to that opinion I suppose
I certainly won't be joining them in it
 
8:15 PM
@Shalvenay i don’t know? They’re open enough to letting us do that (which I’ve been pushing for) but half the club still relies on various GMs to bring books
 
I mean another of my favorites is Wesley Crusher, who, having been long-term adjacent to Star Trek fandom, I knew to hate before ever seeing a whole episode or film of any Star Trek series. You know the annoying Mary Sue kid who the adults bash on because they're jealous of his prodigal skills, but who still saves the day always.
That indeed is the case but for no more than a handful of episodes, all part of the TNG's first season generally considered to be overall bad.
 
@kviiri yeah, Marty-Stu-Dom is a rep that's hard to shake
 
@BardicWizard these are legitimately good and I'm struggling to think of something to match them
 
8:43 PM
@AncientSwordRage thank you. It took me forever (and tapping in my dad) to get them, so I’m trying to outsource the last one cause I’m lazy
 
@BardicWizard you've used your bardic inspiration for the day, you mean
Lazy isn't a thing, is just an easy way to describe a bunch of behaviours
 
@AncientSwordRage believe me, laziness is a thing. Trust the high schooler...
 
lol
 
@AncientSwordRage i am the bard. Nobody else would give me bardic inspiration cause that makes me more hyper than sugar
 
XD
 
8:50 PM
So unless you can give bardic inspiration to yourself then I doubt I’m ever going to be able to come up with something worth continuing
at least for this project
actually, this leads to an interesting question: what is bardic inspiration made of? Is it tangible? Is it edible? If it’s edible is it more like sugar or coffee?
 
@BardicWizard what I mean is that what people call lazy is going to be something like tiredness (physical/mental) or unmotivated (which will have reasons) or too anxious to start/continue
 
I think the answer to that is, variable depending on who is consuming it XD
 
 
2 hours later…
11:14 PM
Guys, just to make sure I'm not crazy, in Pf-1e, what happens to your turn in a surprise round when you are surprised?
 
> Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don’t get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC. (Source)
 
11:33 PM
@TheDragonOfFlame Yeah, 4e is my favorite version of D&D. That's damning with faint praise, and I still had to hack its math pretty aggressively to make the pacing work, but its lore was less toxic; its balance was more comprehensive; its approach to lore/crunch was more consistent; and it encouraged interesting tactical choices at every turn.
I left it mostly because of all the problems I have with any version of D&D, and playing such a well-put-together edition helped me see that my struggles with 3.5 weren't just down to the edition's flaws, but also I was dealing with qualities fundamental to the franchise itself.
It constantly bemuses me to see people in this chat talking about problems in 5e that 4e had already solved but apparently Wizards walked back.
 
2
Q: Disguise Self / Silent Image when camouflaging an item into another item

TedA spellcaster uses Disguise Self to pass as a simple bodyguard. In particular, the quarterstaff that she uses as a spell focus, which normally looks like an obviously magical item (runes, faint lights, the works), is disguised to look like a simple martial weapon (the kind of quarterstaff that a ...

 
(And a lot of the better parts of 5e seem to be the bits of 4e that Wizards was able to disguise enough that the anti-4e crowd wouldn't reject 5e for containing.)
Combat was slow, yeah... but it was interesting so a fight taking an hour or more didn't matter because that's what the game was about; it's kinda like complaining that a movie takes 90 minutes to watch.
Character creation was terrible... if you didn't use the online tools, which removed the tedium and let you get straight to the really creative system mastery bits. Troggy made dozens of characters for fun between sessions just because he enjoyed the character-creation process so much.
The system had some major flaws, but they were mostly centered on the math not scaling with level. I used a couple fan hacks, which the online tools made easy to apply to all my monsters, and the players didn't have to change anything at all. Problem solved! Combat sped up, attacks didn't miss as often, damage was appropriately threatening, and skill challenges got more tactically interesting.
 
11:56 PM
Was it still stuffed with bioessentialist, colonial, exotifying, murder-glorifying, ableist, sanist, objectifying, acceptable-targets nonsense? Absolutely, it's D&D. But that's not what critics of 4e have a problem with, because they prefer editions of D&D which do all of that even more.
 

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