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12:55 AM
My friend plays a rogue in one of my d&d games and one other player said “so we’re heading to the city to go shopping”. My friend said “wait, you mean legal shopping or the other kind? I’m a rogue, I need to know”
I’m currently laughing my head off
And I feel a thousand times better now
1:18 AM
1:28 AM
They just decided to go to the city to find shopping opportunities, and I told them there are no illegal shopping opportunities. My friend just said “I can make my own opportunities”, and the librarian said “isn’t illegal shopping just called stealing”.
My friend’s response: “yes. Yes it is”
@BardicWizard sells the rogue a bag of recalled lithium batteries
@BardicWizard is this in a game or IRL
@TheDragonOfFlame yes
@TheDragonOfFlame game. I do a monthly game though the library
and they’re being hilarious today
Who doesn’t love illegal shopping
Also out of curiosity, online, or the sweet pleaser of in person games
1:40 AM
@TheDragonOfFlame Online
through zoom
the same rogue just suggested getting arrested by the Magic Overload Elimination Service to get them to find the leader of MOES
and now they’re debating whether our RL local energy provider has the ability to arrest people
Nice lol
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@BardicWizard my understanding is "no, but why would you want to cheese off your power company like that anyway?"
1:56 AM
@Shalvenay they’re trying to prove a point
i think
I hope, at least
2:10 AM
Update: They did not get arrested
@Shalvenay Do you live in an area where your power is provided by a private company instead of a municipal utility?
@BardicWizard yay! Also, rogue is my fav class
@Yuuki no, we have the blessing of being in a place where there are no private electric utilities
Well, I got one of those "private-public partnership" things and lemme tell ya, I'd love to stick it to my power company.
@TheDragonOfFlame eheheh, I like Rogue, I just wish people would stop looking at it with blinders on XD
@Yuuki yeah, investors and utilities don't generally mix all that well -- ask anyone who's had to deal with PG&E lately
(aka "California's biggest criminal")
2:23 AM
@Shalvenay I played a LN rogue noble who was someone’s body guard
@TheDragonOfFlame xD sounds like my kind of rogue
"What do you do for a living?" "Oh, I'm a physical security specialist in the Lionguard"
2:39 AM
wild idea -- dragons can maneuver post-stall by twisting themselves about in a fashion similar to the cat righting reflex
@TheDragonOfFlame it was really really close though and the librarian and I both agree that the rogue in question (one of two in our group, actually, although the other one is a coffee obsessed elf) is IRL possibly evil and/or planning to take over the world
@TheDragonOfFlame I once tinkered with a LG locksmith/toolsmith type but couldn't quite get them to take off (having to be a vertically integrated metalsmithing op is a bit hard when you're a DEXer)
(Although the rogue we’re calling “evil” and I have a relationship somewhere between “best friend” and “sibling”, heavily leaning towards “sibling”, so take that comment with a grain of salt)
2 hours later…
4:44 AM
@Shalvenay joke or no joke? Also Lionguard montréal?
1 hour later…
6:14 AM
Q: Chances of specific sequence in X amount of dice?

ShemulatorSo after fumbling around in AnyDice for awhile, I’m struggling to find a solution. Here’s what I’m looking for: What are the chances of rolling a specific number that matches a specific sequence in order in multiple dice? For example, in Xd6, I’m trying to figure out what that chances of rolling...

2 hours later…
7:55 AM
Q: Ephemeral Tread's balance implications

ErudakiThe feat Ephemeral Tread, paired with the spell dream travel, seems to let you travel to the Dimension of Dreams and perform impossible actions. This seems to let you (at a low level) cast wish upon yourself to gain permanent bonuses - or to create an artifact, then astral project yourself onto t...

6 hours later…
1:29 PM
How would one structure a combat-heavy 5e campaign where the party is disincentivized against lethal force? Essentially, the party would be tasked with containing a curse that causes a type of violent mass hysteria and would be told in advanced that their goal is to save lives, not kill bad guys. It seems kind of ridiculous that the intended route for handling combat encounters where you don't want to hurt the enemy is to bean them as much as possible and then say "Non-lethal" on the last hit.
Tie it to bludgeoning weapons, and or have the opponents also make death saves when at 0 hit points (and thus need to be stabilized)?
Most end-game spells within the game revolve around doing as much collateral damage as possible in the vicinity of as many enemies as possible. The ones that do focus on containment and detainment are either only short term (on the order of minutes) or expect you to pay some exorbitant cost (e.g. force cage).
@Someone_Evil I don't think the issue here is in regards to them having cuts vs. bruises. It's the fact that the fighter is Omae wa Mou'ing people to subdue them in the first place.
I guess my question, as usual, would be why it has to be a D&D campaign, since D&D --as you've just enumerated-- isn't really designed for that kind of play.
I'd like to run the story as Fate Accelerated, because I'm still trying to get my feet wet with Fate. Group would rather play 5e.
To run that kind of campaign in D&D is to put the tension between system and goal at the center of the play experience.
1:37 PM
That's what I'm feeling. But I'm also kind of surprised that D&D has barely anything to support this
It's a very dungeon-crawly system
But it gives the impression that the world would rather kill you than stop you from J-walking
Maybe including these options as many did appear in the past editions and PF wasn't done to avoid Adventure League players for building a character that would contrast with the average Adventure League player?
If someone's trying a pacifist run when everyone's trying to see how fast they can kill 28 Goblins, who can do the most damage in one attack, etc., it can mess with party dynamics.
I was deeply amused that 3.5's idea of "pacifist" was basically "hold 'em down while your buddies beat 'em up."
That said, you could get some very interesting play out of leaning into the tension that your party's been given lethal non-precision tools and a precision non-lethal job.
Q: Is the Psi Warrior's Psionic Strike ability affected by critical hits?

OdoThe new Psi Warrior Fighter subclass has the feature Psionic Power which has the following option: Psionic Strike. You can propel your weapons with psionic force. Once on each of your turns, immediately after you hit a target within 30 feet of you with an attack and deal damage to it with a weap...

@BESW One thing that is quite hilarious in 5e is the Bugbear is able to grab people from 10 ft. away and force them to spend their turn breaking out of a grapple.
For melee combatants, they can't fight back
So a party of bugbears could detain up to 8 players. More if one of them dabbled in machining/human experiments and grew extra limbs.
Also, I like the way you put it last. "lethal non-precision tools and a precision non-lethal job"
Objective: Defend china shop using only a grenade.
2:02 PM
Yeah, pretty much.
@Axoren pretty sure that requires a melee weapon attack.
@Axoren Attack the arm that is in the near hex square?
...you could sneak Fate-style action mechanics into the skill system to flesh out non-combat options.
@NautArch I may have misinterpreted it as just having arm reach
@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica That's wrapped up in the action of breaking out of the grapple
Nope,.I'm wrong. Just a melee attack.
2:04 PM
I don't think Grapple counts as a special melee attack like Shove does.
I'd have to reread that section
@Axoren I don't mean breaking free, I mean prioritising attacking the easier target instead of breaking free.
> When you want to grab a creature or wrestle with it, you can use the Attack action to make a special melee attack, a grapple.
I guess it counts.
@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica There's only so much damage you can do to a grappling appendage of a creature. If you're constricted by a prehensile tongue of some tongue beast (I know there's one in the MM or somewhere, but can't remember where), attacking that piece of them may not translate to hitpoint damage.
If the DM says "okay, well they can't use that anymore", that's one thing. However, if you deal the enemy's HP in damage to that tongue, it's not gonna kill the enemy.
Bugbears don't get to get attacked because I feel like they're the exception to the expectation here.
I don't think 5e expected grapples to happen from more than 5 ft. away
I think Giant Apes can do it, too
Assassin Vine is another example of a creature that grapples from more than 5 ft. away.
But the point is that you need to overcome that grapple to fight it back
Cave Fisher is the name of the tongue beast I was thinking of
In case anyone wanted to use those in a future encounter.
I find the notion that damage to a limb or other body part is not considered wounding the creature in question to be odd.
It's not that it doesn't wound the creature, just that it doesn't lead to creature-felling damage.
There's so many abstractions around damage and when people get hurt in combat, it's kind of complicated.
At least I'm of the camp that people are still getting scrapes, bruises, and holes poked in them despite not taking damage an entire encounter, just from the things they've been dealing with for all those rounds
Well, the D20 family of systems has a precedent for called shots dating . . . at the latest to AD&D2e, right?
Are those considered not-contributing-to-felling-damage?
2:16 PM
In many cases, they were all considered horribly imbalanced or poorly conceived.
What is the point of a vanilla attack if a called shot to the head has potential for an instant kill?
etc, etc.
5e lacks it because intuitively, when you're attacking, your character is making the best kind of attack they could.
I didn't mean instant kill, but 'do wounding and cripple an arm' or 'do wounding and ignore plate AC if the target is silly enough to not wear a helmet'.
For things like that, they have the Maneuver system
Battlemasters, and some other fighter/ranger characters have access to a couple of moves that will do those things
Disarm, pin, scare, etc.
It's also balanced around the idea that some conditions and penalties are too powerful to gives outright to everyone with a weapon
Otherwise, combat encounters become MUCH more deadly at Level 1 and thereabouts
Encounters would be able to Blind players by attacking their eyes well before players have access to spells that can treat Blindness
Pinning the arm of a 2H fighter could leave him without recourse to fend off a handful of weak foes
At the end of the day, 5e is the chronologically furthest edition from the origin of D&D in wargaming and is a lot closer in spirit to the "Game" and "Hobby" aspects of genre.
Things are gonna feel real gamey
@TheDragonOfFlame just was making up an appropriate name for a kingsguard type unit
@Shalvenay Lionguards protect the King's pet lion.
Me, a GM and player with a GURPS background:
> Huh, the fighter got *pinned* and there's some expectation he's still trying to fight off anyone? Pinning is like the gameover stage for a mêlée fighter.
2:34 PM
@Axoren Are you looking for a mechanical way to represent non-lethal damage (pretty sure hit points aren't actually specific enough to be hard-lethal), or are you looking to motivate the players to make it relevant (in my experience telling players to do a thing without consequences doesn't achieve much)?
@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Cogent handles that too (it's in early beta however)
Also, it might be more useful to open a main site question. It should be experience based answerable and access a much wider experience pool
@Someone_Evil Trying to find ways to mechanically solve the problem: "Combat has begun. Enemies should be unharmed. Combat should be winnable."
I might ask it on the main site later today
Big problem is it's too unrefined of a question as it is now
I expect posting the question to lead to more questions
And I'd like to have a good idea of how I should be asking it first
It's not whether the topic is handled, but the attitude towards the event, and the possible difference between terminologies. (In GURPSese, 'pinned' basically means 'grappled so hard as to be on the ground and unable to do anything without breaking free, and breaking free would probably take longer than the combat lasts, if doable at all'.)

But it also illustrates an overall difference of attitudes towards special attacks. My expectations are that they tend to be high-risk-high-reward if you know what you're doing (or at least hard to pull off but still high reward).
Ahh ok
Cogent tries to do FEMA style combat, in the sense that someone in armour is impervious to daggers, u less you engage in close combat, then you get bonuses cos you can shove the weapon in a joint that's unprotected
2:45 PM
@Axoren I think I'm unclear as to your current issue(s). Is it the lack of non-lethal options or is it the bugbear long-limbed? Or both!
@NautArch Lack of non-lethal combat resolution options
@Axoren Gotcha. I do think that 5e isn't really built for that. THat's not the design of the system.
Enemies can be disabled, but really the game is about killing.
Most non-lethal detainment last only long enough for combat to "end" before enemies are freed from it and then combat begins again
You can create situations as a DM where you don't want killing, but those are the exception rather than the rule.
If you try focus the game on the exceptions, you're going to have some issues with the platform.
Nonlethal combat is hard IRL, but in D&D5e, IIRC there's an option to just disable with no penalty so long as you're using a close-in muscle-powered attack.
2:49 PM
It feels like you're trying to shoehorn your campaign goals into a system that really isn't meant for that
But once the enemies are disabled, surely the options for nonlethal resolution should be comparable to those in normal life, since that part of the game is handled more by rulings than rules?
@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica RIght, a melee weapon attack can be to knock them unconscious (for 1-4 hours.)
2 hours later…
4:41 PM
Is balance a concern if a table doesn't try to min-max?
@NautArch balance between PCs?
Probably applicable to TTRPGs as much as to computer games: twitter.com/NotBrunoAgain/status/1335010005737680898
@TheDragonOfFlame In relation to this question
but that's a great followup.
asking OP
But let's say it's balance between PCs
I’d say it depends on the players
Seems like if they aren't trying to imbalance via min-maxing, then imbalances aren't a problem.
4:49 PM
I’ve played games where due to luck and or min maxing, one character is significantly more powerful than different ones, but it was fine, because no one cared
But if people care about PC power, then there might be problems
Also, (for example in d&d 5e) power can be accidental
If someone rolled high stats and max hp for levelling up, they would be quite powerful
@TheDragonOfFlame Sure, but that can happen at any time. And if the table isn't trying to play 'optimally' via minmaxing, then having some big powers doesn't seem like an issue.
If everyone is trying to min max, and one is better at it then others, then problems arise
If only one person is then no one really cares
And if no one is then no one likely cares either, right?
@NautArch seems that way
although as a gm i have a group that has one person who minmaxes and the rest of them don’t
it’s not been a problem since they don’t do much combat
Do we want a tag for every dnd 5e class archetype?
5:06 PM
@Akixkisu ??
@BardicWizard good thing they didn't min-max for social!
@NautArch see soulknife tag (though it has been in 3.5 as well).
@Akixkisu ugh, i would say no to that.
class-feature is probably sufficient
5:27 PM
@NautArch I agree, and went ahead to untag them, feels reasonable to get ahead when it is only two questions.
5:52 PM
You could maybe do sub-class tag
@NautArch is that even possible? I guess if you do roll based interaction (I don’t)
(Most of the time)
6:10 PM
@TheDragonOfFlame ah, I do.
Otherwise, it feels too much like purely rewarding people who are good at RP.
But that also includes picking classes/subclasses that are more tuned for that and using stats/items to help boost.
6:29 PM
Q: How to include successful saves when calculating Fireball's average damage?

field158I want to know how to calculate the average damage of a spell that also deals half damage on a successful save. For this example, I'll be taking the most popular evocation spell, Fireball. As far as calculating damage goes, I know how to calculate the expected damage of attacks using an attack ro...

6:45 PM
@NautArch I use rolls only rarely though I do use them to avoid this
@TheDragonOfFlame Although the rolls are often more for mechanical changes to the situation. Influence a NPC, etc.
7:08 PM
And if a PC ever doesn’t want to rp I can let them roll instead
@TheDragonOfFlame I guess I do both. We RP, but when they want to influence the situation more than just talking, I'll have them roll.
7:22 PM
@NautArch "balance" in D&Dish games is generally a code word for "spotlight management" -- so as long as you have some way of keeping one character from hogging the spotlight or shying from it when their time comes, I think you'll do OK
@Shalvenay Agreed, but at a table where folks aren't pushing balance implications, it doesn't seem like something that might be out of wack would be problematic.
7:41 PM
Balance would still be a matter of a player getting more-power-over-narrative than the others, no? The difference is each character has 'less' each (but still equal to each other) and that concerns like a feature breaking if combined with a specific multiclass and feat etc. I would also expect non-minmaxing tables to have an easier time accepting a greater difference in nominal 'power' and maybe have harder time noticing, but that doesn't mean the concept doesn't apply
Q: Is there an easy formula for multiple saving throws?

SeriousBriMy issue: I am playing a druid and if I do something like summon 8 wolves I can end up forcing the DM into 8 saving throws each turn. I mitigate this on my end with an app to roll lots of dice, I pre-roll my attacks and damage and all that, so my turns are quick, but the DM mentioned after the ga...

7:56 PM
@Someone_Evil in my experience if people aren’t trying to make OP characters, they don’t care if other characters are more powerful then theirs
@TheDragonOfFlame agreed
8:25 PM
I suspect there's an assumed "within reason" there which D&D 5e normally ensures, but absolutely the concept of homebrew balance (and good design in general) changes massively depending on what the homebrew is for
2 hours later…
9:57 PM
@TheDragonOfFlame I mean, that kinda depends a little, I had a game where I was very much not trying to make an "OP" character, in fact she was probably a little under-powered compared to the average of D&D characters
but my brother made a character that just repeatedly stole the show and the DM had trouble balancing things out so everyone could contribute but it wouldn't be too hard or too easy for anyone
or everyone even
10:10 PM
I have discovered the only thing worse than a GM with unreasonable backstory demands
a gm that has unreasonable expectations for backstories and then doesn’t even read them
and now i am kind of annoyed at the gm in question
Seriously, he asked for two paragraphs. Two paragraphs is less than a page. It’s not that hard to read a page before the first session, especially not when I sent it to him three weeks ago.
@BardicWizard that kind of double standard would drive me up the wall
especially when he specifically asked for it
I don't often even do full backstories for my characters, generally just enough to figure out what their motivation for doing what their doing is
then if I have to I fill it out more later
or even let the group collaborate on it (this has happened organically more times than I would have ever expected before it,.. started happening organically XD)
@BardicWizard yeah, two paragraphs is fairly reasonable as a backstory, but it would indeed grind my gears if I had to write it only for the DM to not ever read or use any of it
The goal was one paragraph on past events in the character’s life, and one on motivations for being in the big city and/or a couple of important people in their lives
(Our group used to have a 100% overlap with the school writing club, that’s why this is reasonable)
I know he didn’t even read it cause he tried to put my character, who’s very specifically a foreigner trying to establish an outpost for the bardic underground, into the adventure by having the army come to a farming compound and conscript her due to her birth certificate being randomly drawn or whatever. Despite the fact that she hails from literally halfway around the world and is not a legal citizen of the country they’re in
10:34 PM
10:57 PM
@BardicWizard then there is me who wrote a 17 page short story in the backstory of one of my favourite PCs
@trogdor honestly that’s the GMs fault IMO
It’s not that hard to give everyone a turn
11:10 PM
Q: Does an Echo provoke an opportunity attack when it moves?

VadrukThe echo knight feature Manifest Echo says (emphasis mine): At 3rd level, you can use a bonus action to magically manifest an echo of yourself in an unoccupied space you can see within 15 feet of you. This echo is a magical, translucent, gray image of you that lasts until it is destroyed, until ...

@TheDragonOfFlame eh, your system can help or hinder you in that regard
and honestly D&D, to greater or lesser extent varying on edition, hinders more than helps most of the time
two characters of the same level can have dramatically different relative utility, especially when the comparison is between a spellcasting class vs. not
and when you've got a wide disparity like that it's difficult to make combat encounters which are challenging to one without being deadly or trivial to the other.
@Carcer yeah, I've seen that happen before :/
11:35 PM
@TheDragonOfFlame i do that too
I tend towards long backstories so i get that sometimes 10 page backstories don’t get read, but less than a page should not be a deal-breaker
Especially when it’s been asked for
11:55 PM
With a ranger in your 5e party, you can't get lost except by magical means. So, you're out of luck only in situations when the person you're tracking flips the direction of the road signs using Mage Hand.
Just learned this interesting loophole

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