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12:13 AM
@Helwar I recommend re-skinning core races. Their combination of stats is generally balanced against one another.
The biggest risk you run going willy nilly is having a single or couple of races that far outshine any of the others. This can make players role playing one of the "lesser races" feel shorted.
Also, creating a world is a lot of work as it is. Take shortcuts where you can.
@GcL Yeah that was one of my biggest worries. The other being that players might felt like everything was too unknown
@GcL It's the funniest part though :)
12:35 AM
In our upcoming Rolemaster game, the GM has reskinned the (human) races. A few minor tweaks, but generally just the same-old races, with new names :)
@Helwar I find describing a world in order to make it feel more than just a flat set in play is difficult, while story telling is more fun.
oh I said it was fun, not that it were easy :)
I struggle sometimes directing a game. In the spur of the moment I forget to say things, or don't know how to react to the unexpected, so sometimes my carefully laid plains go askew (not that they know :P)
When putting a different veneer on a stat block, altering motivations and modus operandi of individuals can be helpful in making the new race feel different during play.
Rolemaster has High Men, Common Men and Mixed-Men. So "Empire" are High, Hyborea are Mixed and the "Barbarians" are Common. Then limit which Cultures/backgrounds are avaialble to each type
@Helwar I stopped carefully laying out plans because of that.
12:37 AM
but creating a backstory by myself it's less.... complicated
@Helwar I find Cheat-Sheets help with this :) Big post-it notes on the inside of your GM Screen :)
I only like backstories so far as they answer "How did the character come to be here?" and "Why are they traveling with this party?" If they don't do that, I don't like them.
oh well, they are not extensive plans. Just some backgrounds for npcs, with motivations, what do they know, how are they. Just so when something happens I can know what they would do naturally. But sometimes in the heat of the moment I forget x person would be there, or would know to tell what, etc...
@GcL Our GM likes backstories to include Adventure Hooks. Doesn't work for every table, but I enjoy throwing random hooks to see what he coems up with :)
I make lists for the important stuff. Short lists.
12:41 AM
@Helwar Another tool we use is Index Cards for NPCs. Print out a Card for each Important NPC and keep them handy. Have notes on them. Each Scene, you can flick through, and pick out Who Is Here, and What They Want
Oh, up there when I said backstories I meant, for the world. On characters I'm the kind of guy that writes an 8 page backstory, but my character is not some kind of war-god just because the story is extensive. There is just a lot of detail of how he came to be where he is. And like 8000 things my character doesn't know and my DM could take as hooks. The more hooks, the better :)
@Helwar I keep trying to trim my PCs' backstory ... I could just keep adding and adding ... "I met a mysterious man who prophesised at me" ... "I don't know what happened to my parents" ... "I worked in a Market for a while, didn't pan out" ...
@BlackSpike That's what I do, mostly. And I always bring my binder with those and have them in hand. I'm just not as quick witted and sometimes I lose myself in the game and don't wanna stop checking... As said not the best DM ever, but I do try
@BlackSpike I do try to not be overbearing too. I know I said the more the better, but within reason. And only if it really gels with it all.
@Helwar On PC Back-Story, if the GM is happy, that's good :) I put some vague ideas, and see what the GM does with it.
That's best :)
12:48 AM
We also have a System that we call "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly". 3 people that your PC knows. One is 'friendly', one is 'hostile', and one is 'complicated'. Player has full control of who they are. GM has full control of how they appear in the Campaign
As a DM I like any sort of backstory, as long as there is one :P
That system I do not like so much... I try to "push it" if a story is too sparse, making my own questions to the player so to get these interesting tidbits... But don't enforce it if I don't need it.
@Helwar I do tend to steal/subvert 'tropes' for back-story :) my last PC had "Boy named Sue", subservient martial Arts student" .... my next PC has "Cher: Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves" and "Road to Damascus"
that's fun to do too
And convoluted Links (especially names) ... I like Vasquez ("Aliens"), and looked up that it derives from "Crow" ... so @Shalvenay noted that jays are of the Crow family, and Vasquez's forename starts with a "J" ... ta-da! My PC is named "Jay"
Vazquez is a common Spanish surname
that's fun to do too
12:55 AM
@Helwar 23rd most common Hispanic, apparently (and "23" is a good number!)
Last character I made was a tiefling, none of his parents were, but the mother did something to him while on the womb, and he was born a tiefling. He's grown with his father and all he knows is she said something about a "Star child" (that's as far as I know too), so looked for the word star in basque, wich is Iskara, shortened it one letter and said it was the Infernal word for star: Iskar
#LawOfFives #Discordia
@Helwar Nice
@Helwar Did the Play follow up on "oddly Tiefling, with no obvious parentage" plot?
not really...
@Helwar shame
it was a convoluted thing I devised to write a story about, but although the premise I found was great, I couldn't get a good story out of it... So i kinda "demoted" it to a RPG pc, wich is good enough in on itself
12:59 AM
But as I said, I throw loads of stuff into back Story. My Martial Artist had "Masque of the Red Death" (Edgar Alan Poe) in his .. never came up ... I knew it was there tho
It's convoluted, but... The premise was having a good man, being raised by a devil, to be a good man. THe mother wanted something out of having a "star child", and the father knew nothing about it, but as she made a pact with a devil to have the kid, the father found out and made a pact with another, his soul for it to raise the kid as a good man and protect it.
Ever played Microscope, or Universalis? Or any of the 'just storytelling' games?
So the devil inhabits the dad's body, and teaches him how to be a good man.... With a side dish of bounty hunting, that's what they did until suddenly the father-devil went away and left him to his own devices.
And here the story piked up.
@BlackSpike Nope, not a clue
@Helwar I like! Lots of story there!
@Helwar They're very 'improv/story' games. Get a bunch of people together, throw some ideas in the pot, stir, see what pops up :)
Throw ideas out there, and see where other poeple take it
Meh, I have no one to play that with
1:04 AM
Only some of our group will play them
They can work OnLine. I wrote a phone-app for Microscope. Turn-based ... you pick a "Big Picture", an "Event" or a "Scene" and just say what happens.
I once got a few friends to write random prompts into short stories
Next player does the same, but can be before, or after, or even during, any exisiting Time
was super fun to make the prompts, and to write about it, and read what everyone wrote
(we had a week to do it )
@Helwar ah cool!
buuuut they weren't as into it, had fun but wouldn't repeat
1:08 AM
Like the old "write a sentence, fold the paper over, pass it on" game ? :)
@Helwar Yeah, there's a lot that are good for "Glad I did it, wouldn't do it again"
it was kinda: Everyone says a couple of "protagonists". Like: An 8 year old girl. A doctor. A werewolf. Etc
everyone says a couple of locations
then a couple of story hooks
then a genre
then a world
then kinds of magic
OK, that sounds interesting ... keep passing it round, see what peope want in the story
Until there is a biiiiiiiiiig list of a lot of things with a lot of entries. Then you randomize what you get.

I got a Mafia Story a about a werewolf girl that was also a stripper and pole dancer that could teleport but only once every month
and there had to be fairies in it
1:11 AM
OK, give me a moment ....
She's working the bars to pay off the Mob (boyfriend had a deal go sour) ... she reached out to the Fae, who grant her a Moon Bridge ... not sure how that helps, ... oh, werewolf, and 1/month teleport ... she 'gets out of town', goes WOLF, maybe bring home lootz ... hmmm .. .there's definitely a story there
It's in spanish, as it's in the language we did the writing game, but here I have the document we used...
apparently someone clipped the first few columns sometime
@Helwar Cool, have grabbed that :) Lots of stuff! I don't read Spanish, but I know a Google-Translate that does :)
@BlackSpike That would work! Mine was convoluted. She could teleport only once a month during the full moon, when her magic was strongest. (she was in control of her werewolfyness :P) She was on the run for some reason I didn't disclose, and used her wolfy feromones to get easy jobs as a stripper to pay for ther rent
1:17 AM
@Helwar cool
@BlackSpike there are columns lacking in the beginning though
@Helwar That's a shame. I'll see what I can make from it tho
Q: How many people need to succeed in a group check with three people?

Medix2In the comments of this answer it came up that the section on "Group Checks" states: To make a group ability check, everyone in the group makes the ability check. If at least half the group succeeds, the whole group succeeds. Otherwise, the group fails... It came up what does "half the grou...

Did you do it as a "Here's some ideas. everone go write their own story"?
Or more collaborative?
everyone did their own
thing is I tried to start a writing group
and this was to warm up everyone
1:22 AM
@Helwar It sounds lika "Writers group" thing :D
It is
not a game, just a start to a thing that never happened :P
I only pretend to be a Writer :)
Microscope and Universalis (the two we 'play') are kind of a bridge between RPG and Writing
Similar to what you did, the players put together a "Pallette" of what is IN, what is OUT, and what the Story is based around ... then (to mis-quote a quote) "Make some sh*t up, and hope it's fun!"
sounds fun
(brb. Hunting our Logs ... www.themutepoint.com )
Universalis ("Riverworld". A player wanted to set something up for a potential game)
what's this?
1:31 AM
Notes from our Universalis game. It's only a summary of what happened
Was tryign to find better Logs
need to login tho
ah ...
ok, permissions are tricky ... don't worry, was just an aside
(we've had lots of trouble with spam)
@BlackSpike I know the pain
I did a wiki, and forgot to lock it down! suddenly, over 300 users posting 50 articles each ... all JUNK .. had to wipe and start over1
I did a wiki once for myself for a personal project I planned to write about
didn't "close" it because I didn't alert anyone to it
next day it was spamland
1:36 AM
@Helwar yup
I learnt a lot about securing stuff, even if you think no-one will notice it is there ...
I have a couple of Blogs. One gets ALL THE SPAM. no-one else reads it, just bots and spammers!
I can't put my thoughts in text as an habit
it's impossible :P
Very intermittent posting ... when I'm in the mood for just 'writing stuff down, get it out of my head' :P
thecrystalwizard.co.uk is supposed to be about "ART", but I end up writing about my car, my dad's anecdotes, what I had for lunch ... :D
i'm making my own life hard here. My world has extreme weather, and I'm trying to put it down on paper, and get some rules for it... Don't know where to start, or if it's even needed
1:45 AM
@Helwar I did "Extreme Weather" in my last game ... just made it all up as we went along
There's plenty of "Weather Tables" around ... pick one, roll a dice .. then dial it up to Eleven! :)
well there is "reason" behind it... so it is predictable, in a way
"It's cold" ... Ok, there's a BLIZZARD!
"Rain is forecast" ... FLOODS!
"Unseasonably warm" ... HEATWAVE!!!
*i'm saying "hehe" a lot today, stupid brain makes me write it out before even thinking
We had some good fun with Weather. The SNOW meant travel (even just across a few City-Blocks) was troublesome. Visibility was down. "mysterious figures" could be seen shadowed across the street ... supplies ran low ...
"You want to walk across to your Contact's Meeting-Place? Ok, make me an Endurance roll! Player A gets +5 as they bought Winter Clothing. Don't hit the DC, and you're COLD and WET"
hum........ Interesting...
1:55 AM
A fair amount was "just" role-play effects ... my players are good with that ... "I demand Hot Coffee! I know it's rude, but I'm COLD and WET! I'm not even starting the negotiation until they dig into their limited supplies of HOT drinks!"
I don't have anyone to play this world I'm building with, yet. My friend group I told I would not dm anymore for them (conflicting playstyles a lot and I preferred my friendship over fighting for a game)...
I all adds flavour, colour :)
I have another game with a group of friends, where I'm a player, and then one over roll20 where I have the tiefling I mentioned earlier :)
I'm just building this world just because I thought of it and couldn't let it unwritten
Always a good reason :)
What's the base Premise?
Hum... On the beginnig there was nothing, as always, and then there was. Something came out and it was the first goddess, and everything comes from this. She makes the world and some of it's people, and some "others" come out of the nothingness and become gods and create other celestial bodies, etc...
But all this "action" attracts the nothingness, and "it" wants to get everything back.
Where nothingness approach, everything gets more surreal and bizarre (kinda like in the Neverending Story)
2:02 AM
gods get together and fight it back and seal it. But decide to stop doing miracles, to not wake it up again
magic is kind of a difficult issue, as it is a "fantasy" thing, and gets the world closer to the nothingness
Does magic move things closer to Nothingness?
bad wording
magic is a thing that breaks the rules of nature. Breaking the rules is possible only in close "proximity" to the nothingness that distorts things
so when you do magic open a little, temporary hole into it's prison
not "all magic", as druidism is thought as a stabilizer, and divine magic when used through a medium (clerics) doesn't strain the barrier
2:06 AM
So "magic" is trading potential Nothingness for a little usefulness?
yeah, not that people really believe it. Gods can't do much themselves, and people think the nothingness is a boogeyman
it is known, though, that high concentration of magic or casters brings bad luck, strange things happens
Our upcoming Rolemaster has "Fae" in that role. We could learn Faerie Magic, but it will let the Faeries in ...
aberrations are the main enemy here. Anyone might get "aberrated" if a bubble of nothingness emerges close enough
And any magic has the potential to go wrong ...
And I guess does faeries don't give you coin for your teeth exactly
2:09 AM
Oh yes, they pay handsomely! (Beware of entering a bargain with the Fair Folk!)
I kinda like that too
What would your PCs get up to? Directly opposing The Nothing? Quests to find Lost Knowledge? Politicking?
in my world there is Fae intervention too... Since gods can't do much, other planes of existance do their bidding as they want. Have whole regions full of Fae Princes... Races I'm making are Satyrs, Faeries, Selkies, etc...
Others are fae-touched, like bipedal animals, or shadow-touched
@BlackSpike I have a group opposing the nothing, that was the first idea. I'm open to everything as I don't have players yet. But politicking would be cooler, I think.
moraly grey campaign
2:13 AM
In my next game, there are only 3 race. Humans, in all their forms, Dwarves (all virtually identical, as they are carved from the Living Rock) and Elves, in ALL their forms: sprites, nymphs, Elrond, dryads ... all Elves
@Helwar "We -could- put anti-Nothing measures into place, but how would it affect the Economy? The neighboring Kingdoms will see us as weak if we do not build our Army .."
my goblins, for example, are "spirits". just a bunch of "nothingness" that happens into the world, but gets "conscious" of itself, and starts burning itself to keep himself alive (if it makes any sense to you), they can "bond" themselves to places where people leave or tread, like homes or markets. Then they have some power within this, like some mischief, or clean your dishes
@Helwar That's cool.
@BlackSpike Remember they believe the nothing is the boogeyman. Say "nothingness" in public and people thing your talking children tales :P
@BlackSpike If unbonded you'd see a wandering flame, like a will-o-whisp
2:18 AM
@Helwar Aha! but the PCs know it to be true, (with little-to-no evidence) and must garner what support they can ...
@BlackSpike fun enough! :)
"bonding" sounds good ... a reason why 'goblins' appear ... lots of room for (possibly-innacurate) superstitions
@BlackSpike It's kinda bonded in "our" traditions
like in some parts of the world people left offerings like a little bit of milk or bread for their "goblin" so it wouldnt play tricks on them
"The Elves and the ShoeMaker" was a favourite of mine, as a child
The 'elves' would come overnight, and help the cobbler make the shoes ... so long as they were left alone, not seen ...
oh yeah I remember that one
2:25 AM
Ray Bradbury wrote a good short-story about house-elves. They bring luck .. .but you mustn't interfere ... a family gets too curious, and the elves leave, and a bunch of "red-neck" elves move in ... dodgy, dirty elves. Still "lucky", but not so pleasant ...
Anyhoo, it's gone and got late here. Time to hit the sack
bye bye!
2 hours later…
4:03 AM
Q: Do Boots of Striding and Springing negate skills, feats, and spells that reduce your movement?

MivaScottPer the horribly worded description: While you wear these boots, your walking speed becomes 30 feet, unless your walking speed is higher, and your speed isn't reduced if you are encumbered or wearing heavy armor. But there are multiple ways in which a characters speed can be reduced beyond ...

2 hours later…
6:03 AM
Q: If a PC's ability score increases due to an item, does it increase the corresponding modifier for the ability score or any skills/attacks?

StevenI'm a new DM. One of the PCs obtained gauntlets of ogre power, which raise the Strength score of the creature wearing and attuned to them to 19. Does this increase the modifier or any of the skill checks or damage rolls as well? I'm not sure how having higher Strength is helpful if it doesn't.

6:41 AM
good time of day to you as well
1 hour later…
7:50 AM
Hi all
Hi Pierre! o/
Man yesterday's session was eventful, my players got in waaay over their heads and it was all I could do not to tpk them
They are 4 lvl3 players
and they assaulted an assembly of 3 night hags
Which are lvl5 monsters
...yeeaaah, that sound like it depends a lot on the goodwill of those Hags. :P
I nerfed them heavily and they still just barely scraped by, and when one hag died the other two just escaped via ethereal plane
Or "not-directly-lethal-will".
7:57 AM
Honestly I'm really happy, there were some really good tactics at play, but the power difference was just too big
Night Hags are kinda cool as a concept, I used one of them as a long-term baddie in one of my 5e campaigns with the idea that it'd pester the players until they took the attack to it.
I spent a large part of the weekend reading over my 4e materials and fantasizing about running a game in that. AGAIN.
@kviiri Well the player that killed the hag is definitely not going to sleep soundly for a while
Q: Is a Death Knight's necrotic sword damage innate, or connected to its weapon?

CodexRandom question about Death Knights: I'm considering True Polymorphing into one for an upcoming fight. Their longswords have an extra 4d8 necrotic damage tied to them. However, their statblocks do not state that their swords are magical nor that their necrotic damage is innate (like a Planetar's...

The highlight of the fight was when one player used thunderwave to push a hag from the top floor through a window (it worked) but at the same time included crates that (they didn't know) contained two live children in the AOE (they died)
@kviiri I did the same with the Naheulbeuk rpg, I think my players are liking D&D all right, but I don't think they're having as much fun as we used to have playing Naheulbeuk
8:35 AM
@PierreCathé oops
Yeah, since they were alone on that floor when it happened, the player blamed the hags when the paladin reached them
8:50 AM
So, to shorten it, you exchanged TPK for the sacrifice of two children and a lie that may come bite them in the lower region?
Sounds good
9:05 AM
@Nyakouai Not only that, but there are still 2 hags at large, and IIRC they have a nightmare-inducing ability that I'll try to make a pain in the aforementioned lower region
Maybe the hags will use that as leverage to ransom the party or ask a big service
9:33 AM
in my game, the Night Hag that tormented the party was especially interested in going after high-profile heroes, was known for patience but also a degree of sloppiness: moving frequently could keep her off your tail for a while.
I had a set of house rules and roll tables to determine if she'd attack on any given night, based largely on the PCs' "visibility" to her.
10:03 AM
After thinking about it, I'll probably try the following : first, house-rule that if someone casts "protection against good and evil" while the hag is creating the nightmare, it's interrupted for this night (an npc will be able to tell them if they seek him out). The character will be haunted by dreams tormenting them for killing the hag, and hinting that the npc they are escorting is actually evil and dangerous (she's not)
That way, the hag is in character, trying to get them to do evil acts, the character will have a ticking clock to find a solution and dissention will be born inside the party
10:26 AM
@PierreCathé The other kind of "in character" :)
11:25 AM
@Glazius OK, I'll check, I think I am good
2 hours later…
1:05 PM
Q: Do encumbered characters suffer any penalties when exploring and/or traveling?

BlarghastoThe current 5e campaign I'm running uses the encumbrance variance rules and demands a lot of travel and resource management on the part of the players. This brought up questions about penalties when exploring and traveling while encumbered/heavily encumbered (especially from players of character...

1:58 PM
@NautArch So much yes on your answer to Lucky feat question.
@KorvinStarmast it's really not a big deal.
let your players have fun
@NautArch don't you tell me what to do
@Yuuki dance,monkey, dance!
Do we have any policies about things that are technically political?
I want to share a video for a NM (candidate) congresswoman that it pretty fantastic.
@goodguy5 We generally avoid political discussion here. Too easy to cross the Be Nice line.
2:05 PM
@goodguy5 Or post it in Not A Bar
What you think is pretty fantastic, someone else may see as Not Nice.
posted in not a bar
I don't see how it could be Not Nice, but feel free to let me know if I'm wrong....
I've been wrong before....
@goodguy5 She doesn't represent a coastal French city, therefore Not Nice.
2:08 PM
cut that out lol
@NautArch for the record, it's a "I'm running for congress" video, not like... "so my thoughts on this person"
is it the one with the driving a car backwards for some reason
@Carcer I think it's saying "things are moving backwards"
2:23 PM
very political
But sometimes you got put it in reverse to get out of the driveway.
cars are a bad metaphor for progress
Cars are a bad metaphor for anything once you realize that you park on a driveway and drive on a parkway.
I only drive on roads personally
Cares are a great metaphor for things that require lots of maintenance.
also, any obvious "drive stick" jokes are always welcome imo.

hrm... .("always" may not be true. I'm sure that someone has ruined the joke once or twice)
2:29 PM
Mostly /s on that but then I started getting too into the weeds for a joke.
To the point where it stopped sounding like a joke.
that was a quick rep cap for the day.
@NautArch I could wish for that.
Q: Is this question about the expected way to acquire costly components too opinion-based?

jwodderI'd like to ask the following question about what the "standard"/"expected" way to do something in D&D 5e is, but I feel that it'd likely be deemed opinion-based or unclear with regard to the meaning of "expected." Is the question acceptable for the main site, and, if not, how can I modify it so...

2:54 PM
zomg... I can't even mention it in the chat, but I now have concrete evidence that there is a product for every conceivable situation.
@JohnP there's a lid for every pot.
@NautArch This one is actually RPG related. An...extremely unique way to roll dice.
@JohnP my mind is going places i don't want it to.
@NautArch You're not going far enough, probably. But that's about enough of that topic, assuredly. :p
man, now I'm upset. I want to know more about this....
Well, I found something suitably inappropes and I'm just going to assume it's that
3:09 PM
@goodguy5 etsy?
uh, just browsed through the images on the search. coulda been etsy
@goodguy5 You've got discord.
oh yea! that's true.
1 hour later…
4:21 PM
Is anybody familiar with Advanced Fighting Fantasy? Because I can't come up with any hits for "lost mine" for that. Is this a mistag of 5e LMoP?
Q: What is the Black Spider's Goal?

Duncan GrantI'm DMing the starting campaign for the Lost Mines. How can I get the fighters to want to fight the Black Spider, and why does He want to fight them?

@Rubiksmoose I mean, it sure looks like it.
@Xirema IIRC it even included a Black Spider (though I've never played the module and it's been a while since I listened.
@Rubiksmoose I couldn't find any adventure named Lost Mines either.
I'm glad they responded promptly to that.
I'm very curious how they landed on that tag though.
heh, just realized I lost an accepted answer because I didn't add a JC tweet as support.
and i'm okay with that
@Rubiksmoose yeah, that was super weird. but isn't this PoB?
4:32 PM
@Rubiksmoose Maybe they are considering this encounter advanced fighting and didn't realize that was a system tag?
@NautArch Eh, the module has details about Nezznar and his motivations. I'm digging through it to try to figure out what his actual deal is.
@Xirema ah, okay. That was a missing piece i didn't have.
It's certainly close. I'm not certain one way or another right now on whether it should be open or closed. Like Xirema said there is at least some info in the module that addresses it.
@ACuriousMind Yeah, seems as good of a guess as any.
@ACuriousMind I would guess they were typing fighter and got that suggestion. On a related note, this is why people distrust rare system tags from new(ish) users
@Someone_Evil Or maybe "adventure"
4:36 PM
I'd reference my campaign, but I retconned too much to be useful. In my version of the campaign, Nezznar is just a Drow with a lot of Bravado who went searching for the mine, but got lost in Wave Echo Cave (LSS: the cave rearranges itself and you can't navigate it without the Rockseeker map), so all he wants now is to get out safely and go home, but he doesn't trust the adventurers and will attack them on sight.
But fighter is a good guess as well given the question and the original tags actually.
Good catch there :)
:) Well the ol' noggin is occasionally good for something
@goodguy5 Well then lol
Sidenote: that looks extremely hard to actually drink out of
4:49 PM
go for the side, not the front/back
5:03 PM
Question: is the Lost Mines of Phandelver actually part of the 5e SRD? I know it's part of the freely available content that doesn't require you to buy anything, but I'm not sure that's the same as actually being part of the System Reference Document.
@Xirema if i look up nezznar on dndbeyond, it associates with LMOP and not basic rules.
@NautArch Well, yeah, he doesn't appear in the Basic Rules. So only things in the Basic Rules are part of the SRD?
@Xirema oh, hmm. not sure if srd = basic rules.
Is this a homebrew this for me question?
@NautArch I think they might be expecting a rules-based approach, but the rules for calculating CR don't really take specific spells into account.
So I think the answer is more like "you'll have to homebrew something", rather than "here's a homebrew that would solve your problem".
5:21 PM
RIght, but isn't homebrewing utilizing the adjust this monster rules? Maybe there is only way way to go get CR27, but if there'smore than one, then it's PoB. I think i'mgoing to VTC as a homebrew this for me.
@NautArch I suppose. Colloquially, I don't usually think of "modifying a creature, but according to the strict supervision of the DMG/MM rules for modifying a creature" as homebrew, even if the changes become quite substantial. Not saying it literally isn't; I'm just saying I don't usually think of it like that.
@Xirema Yeah, it's a bit of gray line. But I always saw 'modifications' as homebrew. They just give you a path to do it with a yardstick.
but it's still "modify this for me", without any parameters on why one modification would be better than another.
so i guess it's Too Broad
Yeah, I cast that vote too. It might be better to get the user in chat for discussion (maybe refining the question to get it reopened).
@Xirema +1 :)
5:51 PM
I figured there'd be discussion on that question. I threw a bit of a frame challenge its way. Does it need more support for why its more important to create dynamic encounters in the later tiers?
@DavidCoffron I mostly agree with what you've got there, but you do need to add some real support (i think.)
but I'm also unsure if your example is the only way to get to CR 27.
I mean, couldn't you just boost their attack bonus or AC alone enough to make the change?
WHy isn't that answer just as valid?
> I spotted him across the restaurant. There he was, eating his salad with a dessert fork. The nerve of some people! I was so aghast that I dropped my handful of mashed potatoes.
@NautArch Hm? I didn't change anything. That is already the CR of the gold dragon according to the rules in the back
@DavidCoffron Confused. Ancient GOld is CR 24. You made changes via the rules in the back to get it higher. But why those changes vs others?
Oh, i see. You're saying that Ancient GOld really is a 27, and not 24 as written?
@NautArch I didn't make any changes; I just calculated what the statblock should be.
5:58 PM
Ugh, i'm not sure howhelpful that is. That problem of calculations not equating to final.
I think you need to make a stronger case (although not sure you can), that the MM is wrong.
Q: Ogre CR calculation: is it wrong or am I missing something?

EscroteitorMy question is about the basic ogre CR calculation in the monster manual, which doesn't make senses to me. I tried to make a concept of an "armored ogre" with chain mail and pikes (AC 16 and 15 (2d10+4) damage). The problem comes when I recalculate its CR and it's exactly 2, just like the ogre. ...

@NautArch I mean; If he is trying to get to CR 27 on a basically custom monster, he already is. Any buffing from here will make it above CR 27
@DavidCoffron I think you need to prove your point that the MM is wrong, though. RAW, it's a CR 24.
and that's a steep hill to climb.
@NautArch I did. Do I need to show my work more? I said the MM and the DMG disagree. Not saying its wrong per se. RAW it is CR 24 but the DM Workshop model puts it at 27
@DavidCoffron Based on the Ogre question, ti seems like they have other toggles they use on their back end we're not familiar with.
@NautArch Right, but the question is using the Workshop rules which place it at 27
6:02 PM
So, using the workshop can differ from the MM. But the MM is the 'actual'. We just don't know why it's different.
No, the question is asking how to get it to CR 27. You still need to start with either the assumption that the MM is right and go from there or from the MM is wrong. But the calculation alone is not enough.
Because we know there can be a difference as seen in the ogre question.
@NautArch Yeah, so if I made a custom monster with the same defensive capabilities and damage output as the RAW gold dragon gets 27
There's nothing else to go on
The DM Workshop is the only math we get for CR
Yes, there is. THe actual monster entry.
THe math can be different, though.
they've already said/shown that.
@NautArch No, I mean for the sake of the OP. Anything beyond what I've shown is just speculation on why the CR would be different
@DavidCoffron BUt they're not making a custom workshop monster. THey want to modify the CR 24 to get to CR 27.
@NautArch Okay; then using the Modify a Monster rules (which are the same)
6:06 PM
THey've run the calculations and are confused because of whatever WoTC is using in the background when determining CR outside of the calculations rules they provide.
I don't think you can just throw out the written CR value because it's different.
@NautArch I'm not throwing it out. But any other analysis is anti-RAW. If I modify the monster in some way there is no way to know if that affects their back-door calculations too. We have to work with what they've given us, which says that any buff from here will put the dragon past CR 27
I am not saying the MM rules are wrong. I'm saying that we can't use the DMG rules to do what the OP wants
@DavidCoffron RIght, so we start with CR 24. And then we add HP/AC/Attack bonus (or other things) to get it to CR 27.
@NautArch Huh. That's not how the DM Workshop works. It has flat values. We know the damage output, traits, HP, and AC/saves. That already shows CR 27
Frame challenge: Instead of building a CR 27 dragon, we suggest building 27 CR 1 dragons
There is no way to simply arbitrarily increase the CR
(well there is, but my answer already shows that it doesn't quite work properly)
6:11 PM
Isn't step 1 "pick the expected challenge rating"? If you're starting with an existing monster, wouldn't that be it's CR?
I'm showing my lack of knowledge here, but when you're modifying an existing monster, I don't understand why you wouldn'ts tart with the rating it has.
@NautArch You would, but then its damage output and present stats immediately jumps it up to CR 27 anyway
@DavidCoffron except for the fact that it doesn't actually because the actual MM entry is CR 24.
So it may rate as a CR 27 using the tool, but the atual entry is a CR 24.
And I'm having a hard time saying rating>actual.
@NautArch No. It does actually. The Dungeon Master's Workshop rules give that monster a CR of 27. They just don't reflect CR that is used in the Monster Manual perfectly
@DavidCoffron And now we're back to the ogre example where they state it can be different. But the atual entry is the CR - not the workshop tool.
So there is something that reduces it to a CR 24.
@NautArch I know, but if we are using the workshop tool to change the monster we have to start from its metric, or we get nowhere.
6:16 PM
WHy doesn't the metric begin with it's actual?
I think that's the piece that's missing for me.
@NautArch I didn't write it
@DavidCoffron So it states that we should ignore the actual CR rating when modifying an existing?
We start with the expected only for determining proficiency bonus and hit dice
@NautArch No. But the first step of modifying a monster is calculating its offensive and defensive CR so you can find out what your changes do to the challenge, which gives us different numbers than the expected.
So your recommendation is actual "throw out the existing Ancient Gold. Pretend you are building a new monster and use the workshop. You can use the existing stats to help you start."
Not at all.
> However, once you change the creature’s offensive or defensive ability, such as its hit points or damage, its challenge rating might need to change, as shown later.
6:20 PM
I think I have to give up. I don't understand why you wouldn't account for it's actual rating.
@NautArch Because the rules don't say to. I'm only following the rules we have to work with
@DavidCoffron And I give up :) Not up or downvoting it - i just don't get it.
TBH, the logic for calculating CR is a little bit circular.
Like, when using AC to determine how to adjust the Defensive CR, you're supposed to compare the AC against what you'd expect the AC to be for a creature of the CR you expect the final creature to be.
So if you wildly overestimate or underestimate the expected CR of your homebrew creature, it causes the calculated final CR of the creature to be lower or higher, respectively.
The way I handle it is to use the max HP and Damage as baselines for the "expected" CR, and then fill in the AC/+HIT values to adjust from there—but the DMG doesn't suggest that (or anything, for that matter).
6:37 PM
@Xirema Honestly, I think the rules in that section are completely useless. They are very very difficult to understand. In an extremely non-useful order (having to flip back and fourth constantly to reference tables that are all over the place), and they completely fail to account for a wide range of traits, abilities, and combinations.
Okay, not completely useless (they can be useful for getting ballpark estimates), but should be taken with a bunch of salt
@DavidCoffron That's okay, I needed more iodide in my diet anyways.
@Xirema They're overlapping sets in hard to categorize ways. SRD goes levels 1-20 and has all classes (though only one archetype each), while basic only has the 4 classes up to level 5 (?). But some of the basic DM content is outside of the SRD, IIRC?
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