« first day (3309 days earlier)      last day (49 days later) » 

5:00 PM
@JohnP I don't see them, can you provide a link?
 
@Sdjz you're not a moderator, you won't see them.
 
Oh I thought you meant the blue icon notifications we get sometimes in chat
 
So I cracked open my roommate's 3.5 PHB yesterday while I was idling waiting for my session to begin. Went to the section on Weapons.
I gotta say, I kind of love the variety of weapons to choose from, but just staring at that page, not only with the sheer variety of properties the weapons had, but also the text blurbs that each had additional properties associated with each weapon, it sounds like an utter nightmare.
 
That's 3.5 for you. It answers the question "Just how many options is too many?"
 
Just this yawning chasm of "oh. Oh WOW. How did people tolerate this????"
 
5:03 PM
Where Pathfinder then built on top of that - simplifying some things, streamlining others, and still generally just adding more options
 
Oh come on! 3.5 has too many weapons? When's the last time you saw 1 or 2e's polearm table?
 
@Joshjurg I mean, "too many weapons" isn't quite the problem I'm observing.
It's just that each weapon has too many variables, too many properties, too many factors to consider.
 
There are many options, many of which introduce or reference some other game mechanic
 
Yeah, I reckon. 3.5 had all those wacky double weapons and nonsense like the spiked chain, IIRC.
 
Like, I've got my probability calculator, and I can plug all that stuff in and spin it into a workable "okay, for your character, this is the weapon you should choose".
But for the average player, it's way too much.
 
5:07 PM
((Pathfinder 2e plug: keep the variance, drop the ad-hoc: all weapons use standardized Traits that give them their various bonuses and properties - and they're all roughly balanced))
Axes usually have Sweep so they gain a bonus if you attack different enemies on one turn, Swords usually have Versatile P so you can do piercing or slashing, Picks have Deadly [die] so they have especially dangerous crits, etc
 
@Xirema Yep. 3.x/PF heavily emphasized system mastery. Lots of obscure options and hidden rules. That's why 5e was built to be approachable to newcomers (at least by comparison).
 
Hah, yeah. I'm playing 5e after a years-long break and I love how intuitive a lot of it feels. Relatively balanced (for the casual player, at least) too.
 
Yeah - though when it comes down to it, most of the traits you got in PF didn't matter. Yeah, Glaive-Guisarme is straight up better than a Glaive (adds the Brace property and a special thing)... but no one uses Brace
 
@Delioth I've never seen anyone use brace, although a friend mentioned seeing it in exactly one combat
 
I think I once used it against my players?
Or I just thought about it
 
5:17 PM
@Joshjurg s/table/appendix =)
 
5:34 PM
Play Manga edition of PF 1e... really.
 
@NautArch In response to all the comments that are degrading my question I posted about room with I will say this. I am not necessarily asking for myself but for others that might come here for my answer. If a room has odd shapes to it and doesn't have a clear "short" side then what would we do? How would you explain to people that consider the width is the dimension going across their field of view that they are wrong?
A complete answer that would address those instead of just saying "oh it's the short side" would be good.
 
@Eternallord66 How can it not have a clear 'short' side. It's the side that's shortest, no?
 
I ran the same campaign and while I knew it was "equal to the short side" my players didn't.
 
I mean, in my campaigns, if the height of the ceiling matters, I just specify it as a separate dimension, and if the text doesn't tell me what it is, I just make it up on the spot.
 
Important: the height of the room is only relevant when it's relevant, if no one's flying or climbing walls, you can generally just let players theater-of-the-mind the height of the room, and you don't have to tell them how you know what the height is
 
5:42 PM
@Eternallord66 (A complete question would say "I have this oddly-shaped room and can't figure out what the default ceiling height should be.")
 
There's not really rules support to say it must be one or the other in the absence of an explicitly specified dimension.
 
I feel like everywhere where ceiling height mattered that was called out in the module.
 
The height matters all the time to a certain player when they are trying to decide what spell to cast.
 
@Eternallord66 what spell is that?
 
Curiosity requires I ask that question as well
 
5:44 PM
@NautArch I mean, off the top of my head, I know Call Lightning has open space requirements.
 
Fly, Spider Climb, Call Lightning etc.
 
Granted, those requirements are usually greater than what any dungeon will ever provide, but....
 
@Xirema I had thought maybe this was an x-y problem. But if it's the list below, then it's just "things i might be interested in doing" and not really height dependent.
@Eternallord66 Still, I don't understand how "shortest" isn't clear. You give me a room with any given set of dimensions and I can pick the shortest dimension.
 
Maybe you can but not everyone can
 
Or - as the DM - just do what feels like it makes sense.
 
5:46 PM
That is why I wanted it addressed
I am not the Dm
 
@Eternallord66 Really?
 
This seems like it's answered.
 
@NautArch Easy, now =\ (rewritten to remove my own snarkiness) That seems a bit sarcastic.
 
@nitsua60 Heh, but that's my point. The shortest dimension is the smallest number. I'm uncertain how that's unclear from the answer.
 
@NautArch Why are you so close minded? Not everyone can understand the dimensions. We have a 10 year old playing in the campaign
 
5:49 PM
@Eternallord66 Are you trying to get at "how does one determine the shortest side of a room without being given measurements?"?
 
@Eternallord66 Okay, but they're not the one DMing, are they?
 
@Eternallord66 If you're not the DM, you provide the direction given in the answer to them and they explain that the shortest dimension in the room determines the height of the room.
If they're unclear as to what is the shortest dimension, then they can ask the table for help.
 
Like, I get a kid having difficulty with geometry, but the DM is ostensibly someone who can just declare "the room is 30' tall", and it doesn't really matter how the DM came to that determination.
 
@NautArch Without looking at the question, I'm imagining an irregular hexagon of a room, with wall lengths 50', 50', 20', 50', 50', 20'. Perhaps a "length" of 80', a (large) width of 40', but actually a geometric min width of 35' as measured perpendicular to a 50' side?
 
Maybe the module specified it, maybe the module gave a rule for how to derive it, or maybe the DM had to make up a number on the spot.
 
5:50 PM
@Eternallord66 If that's what's causing the trouble, that should be in the question.
 
@nitsua60 Sure, but going by the answer provided, that would be 20'. WOuldn't it? Or am i misunderstanding the answer? THe question also was pretty clear in the room dimensions before the recent 'irregular size' edit as well. If there's a room like that in the module, then that should be the focus of the question.
 
@nitsua60 I absolutely agree. That seems like vital information.
 
I was asking for in game reasoning to determine it for everyone involved and not have to ask the DM about every single room.
 
@Eternallord66 We can't answer game reasoning, though.
We can answer game rules, but not the reasons behind them.
 
@Eternallord66 I think what everyone is trying to say is "it's either obvious, or just pick a side".
 
5:52 PM
It's literally the GM's job to describe/answer those questions though
 
^
 
Game rules is what I meant
 
@Eternallord66 Right. In this case, I don't think in-game reasoning exists.
 
@Eternallord66 And how does the answer not provide you with that?
 
And if someone's asking something specific about every room, it should probably become part of what the GM just describes upon entering a room (like most give notable features, entrances/exits, and things that are moving, and other stuff on prompt)
 
5:53 PM
Players aren't [in theory] supposed to read the module, and in this context, the module is the only source providing a heuristic for how high the room should be.
 
@goodguy5 I think the hexagon @nitsua60 referenced is a potential example (unclear if it's actually a problem in that module, but still an example.)
 
If a room has a specific height, that's something the DM needs to call out. If they want the players to just assume based on the dimensions they call out, then they need to explicitly say that.
 
^
 
If this is ultimately about more than room dimensions and really about a character that's eager to flex their uniqueness and explore in 3d space then that's absolutely up to them and the DM to resolve - probably by letting them shine once or twice and then "put it away until it's needed".
 
Is it really that hard to include in the answer these instances I am describing? There would be no discussion if they were.
 
5:55 PM
at least for me, I don't understand what's not clear.
What instances, is the confusion
 
There's no general-purpose rule that can be given to all players that says "okay, given these widthXlength dimensions of a room, here's what you should believe the height is". Or rather, the answer is always, always, always, "Ask your DM."
 
@nitsua60 From a math and module guidance perspective, can you answer how you'd determine width as shortest side for that hexagon? Actually interested and not being snarky :)
 
If the DM wants to say at the beginning of a campaign/session/whatever "okay, if I call out a room as being x by y feet, always treat y as the height", they're free to do so.
 
I'm thinking more and more that this could actually be an X-Y problem in any case; looking for a resolution to constant questions of room height, maybe?
 
^ or an irregular-but-roughly-figure-eight-shaped-chamber?
 
5:57 PM
Not all the rooms are square or rectangle. Some rooms don't have any flat walls. Some rooms have more than 4 walls. How would you find the width in those cases?
 
You just say "it's 30'"
Or whatever - the module gives a way to make up the height when the module doesn't care
 
Yes, the DM could say that. What if they don't? What if the module doesn't say?
 
The GM is not expressly bound to use that height at all times no matter what
 
@Eternallord66 The DM is free to make up their own heuristics.
 
If the module doesn't say the height, then the module creators don't care what that height is
 
5:59 PM
for the record, plain english, the width of a hexagon is the distance between opposite faces, where the length is the distance between opposite edges.
 
If no height is specified, the game crashes when the room is loaded
 
It does specify the height, right? as "equal to the shortest side"
 
Like, I know I'm stating the obvious, but the job of being a DM requires decision-making, even when you're just following a script written for a campaign module.
And sometimes that Decision Making process is going to involve making decisions without any real guidelines being provided.
 
The module says if it doesn't say it would be at least the width of the room. What you people don't seem to understand is that the "width" is not always clear.
 
@goodguy5 What if it has an odd number of edges?
 
6:01 PM
Correct. But that's STILL a guideline for the DM to adjudicate by.
 
right, but you have only just given us an example of what you mean, an irregular room
 
Do you have an actual, by-the-book example where the width isn't clear?
 
@MikeQ then it's not a hexagon
 
What if the room exists in non-Euclidean space
 
@Eternallord66 And in that scenario, the DM is going to need to make something up.
 
6:02 PM
I do not have any of the maps available to me as I'm not the DM. I am asking how a player would be able to figure it out without always asking the DM.
 
@Eternallord66 They can't.
 
Yeah, it's literally the GM's job to do that
 
@Eternallord66 unfortunately, ask the DM
 
@Eternallord66 This sounds like the actual question you wanted to ask.
 
Either the DM needs to make a rule saying "if I describe a room like this, assume that about the height", or the DM needs to always manually specify the height.
 
6:03 PM
@Eternallord66 The player could read the module text, but some would consider that cheating
The room is (probably) at least as tall as the objects inside the room. Beyond that, there's no way for a player to determine anything about in-game space without involving the DM.
 
My point with my problem with the answer given is the fact they are assuming the room is straightforward.
 
Of note, D&D is meant to be cooperative, you can always ask the GM to always specify the height of a room or write a notecard with "HEIGHT?" on it that you hold up during room descriptions to ask what the height is preemptively
 
@Eternallord66 I don't think that's what they're assuming, I think they're assuming that this question is meant to be advice for the DM.
 
That was not stated anywhere in the answer
 
6:06 PM
@Eternallord66 Hence my qualifier "I think". But more importantly, if this is meant to be advice for the perspective of a player, that should probably go in the question somewhere.
 
I don't think it needs to be. It's rule 0 in the DMG.
 
It's also really asking "how can a player infer world description without the GM', when the whole point of a GM is to describe/adjudicate the world
 
Because directly reading the campaign module implies the perspective of a DM.
 
New players that may come to the question may not know about rule 0
 
Is rule zero about DM fiat? Or the DM's responsibility to describe the local world?
 
6:08 PM
If the answer is "ask the DM in other instances" that should be included in the answer. One line isn't too much to ask for.
It seems like you people are seeing these questions from only the perspective of people that know the system pretty well. New players come here too
 
Ok, our company now has Microsoft Teams, Skype, hipchat, yammer and slack chat apps. And nobody communicates. :|
 
@Eternallord66 I think part of this discussion here (in chat) is also that the question you asked doesn't really appear to be the problem you're trying to solve, and we here at stack like to be helpful and solve the actual problem you're facing
 
@Xirema That's how I read it.
 
@Eternallord66 I mean, your question is still framed as though it's from the perspective of a DM. You're not going to get useful responses if we're all operating under the impression that this was meant to be a DM's guide to working out the height of a room.
 
All that had to be done is to add one line of text.
 
6:12 PM
If what you need is advice for players making assumptions about how high a given room will be (which, like I said, is something players cannot do) that needs to be part of the question.
 
"Ask the DM" is that too hard to ask to alleviate all of this?
 
(for reference, I'm 90% sure the real problem you're trying to solve is "How can a player get the height of a room without having to prompt the GM?" where the answer is "ask the GM to describe it with every room or agree to a default size")
 
@Eternallord66 "As a player" is that oo hard to ask to add in to change the perspective of the people answering?
 
"I am playing" is literally the first three words of the body of the question.
 
The last line of the current answer says to ask the DM.
 
6:15 PM
GM's also "play"
 
Because I added it after all of this bickering
 
or "What are some strategies players can employ to get environmental dimensions without being too disruptive of game flow?"
 
And to be fair, the original question was about a room with specific rectangular dimensions.
 
The DM is also a player, for the record
 
That was an example as clearly stated. An example is not the end all be all
 
6:16 PM
@Eternallord66 I think you're misunderstanding our attempt to help as bickering. And there is frustration on both sides because of the lack of understanding about the question.
 
@goodguy5 Technically, yes, but to be fair, questions that say "I'm playing" usually suggest they are asked by a non-DM player
 
But the example is the one thing that an answer can benchmark against
 
@MikeQ perhaps. I say that I'm playing two games. one as a character and one as DM, but ymmv
 
"Example" implies many different scenarios.
 
@Eternallord66 but also creates a template.
 
6:17 PM
If you say that the answer should apply to arbitrary non-example cases, there's the issue of "well, this answer doesn't apply if you have one room that's @-shaped" - is that a case that's necessary to answer?
If the only examples you give are rectangles, it's pretty well implied that rectangles are the target, so we don't need to worry about @-shaped or non-euclidian cubed-circular rooms where the width is an imaginary number
 
@Delioth See the last line of the question
@JohnP As a player has been added
 
So I see the question says "For example", but for reference, folks here tend to be very literal about the body of the question you ask. If you want a general-case answer, that should be in the question body.
 
@Eternallord66 How "odd shaped" is the real question. Is a room that's shaped like an ampersand still relevant?
 
@NautArch As a DM, I'd blurt out something in the 20-40 range. Lower if I've been trying to create a claustrophobic feeling, higher if we're trying to communicate "grandiose." Mechanically, the only thing I'm worrying about at that range are (in increasing order of length-scale) reach/OAs, small AoEs, anything "ranged" is fine, call lightning.
 
"Odd" can mean many different shapes. Wavy walls, pentagonal etc.
 
6:21 PM
@nitsua60 Don't you mean you'd bleat that out?
 
well, pentagonal can be defined in "length and width", but that's just being semantic.
 
What would the length or width be in a pentagon?
 
@Eternallord66 I see that, but AFAIK, players generally aren't supposed to be reading the descriptions in the module book that are for the DM. That may be why everyone is assuming you are the DM.
 
5 walls with no clear axis
 
@Eternallord66 They are all equal sides. Pick one. Same as a square.
 
6:23 PM
As a math-person, I'm going to envision a pair of parallel plates "riding" the perimeter and call the "width" the smallest distance between them I get.
 
@Eternallord66 It seems like you really want to ask "When I don't know the height of a room, how do I discover it as a player?"
 
The width is the widest dimension, and the length is the longest dimension
 
@JohnP Pentagons do not always have equal sides. The width of a wall is not the same as measured across a middle of the room
 
@Eternallord66 In any case, once you get to more complex geometry than "pick the smallest size" the only reliable method is to ask the GM
 
The Length is the longest distance from a side to its opposite point.
And the width is the perpendicular measurment to the length.
 
6:26 PM
@Delioth That is why I was asking for one extra line in the answer but everyone wants to argue against it because "it isn't necessary"
 
@Delioth @Eternallord66 Which is also how you approach learning the dimensions anyway. You as a player are told you enter a room. You then ask the DM to describe it for you and ask for the dimensions.
 
Because even if you sit down and do the geometry for the exact distance, the GM's probably not going to and will probably just throw out a number based on how the room fits into play (either based on stories or mechanics)
 
@Eternallord66 May I ask why you're arguing against every person? You've rejected or bashed every possible opening everyone has given you.
@Eternallord66 I would remind you of Be Nice. And I think we have exhausted the limits of the conversation now.
 
@Eternallord66 It looks like you added it to the answer. What problem remains?
 
@JohnP Because everyone was saying one thing but wouldn't do anything to add it to the answer
 
6:28 PM
@Eternallord66 generally because it's not our place to add to other peoples' answers
 
@nitsua60 Tremble in fear, for I have bamboozled you!
 
20'
That's a 20' tall room
 
@Xirema I mean...... it looks 20 feet tall to me
 
@NautArch Abso-yes, of course. Sorry.
 
@Xirema I make that out to be....about 20'.
 
6:29 PM
^^
@Xirema Shut up, Gary.
 
@nitsua60 I couldn't help myself.
 
@nitsua60 LOL, what's that a reference to?
 
@Xirema it's a meme, but I don't know the origins
 
@JohnP Hrmm..... Begins digging....
I'm assuming it's like a Pokemon thing or something.
 
@Xirema a quick search turned up some spongebob?
 
6:31 PM
synonym for roof or ceiling please
 
up-floor
 
@NautArch That makes more sense.
 
@goodguy5 Misplaced wall
Non-functioning skylight
 
@goodguy5 "The Sky"
 
@Eternallord66 - BTW, I rolled back your edit. You can suggest it as a comment, but good practice dictates we don't add information to another person's answer.
 
6:32 PM
:-\
I'm going with "top" thanks
 
@goodguy5 "The thing that was going to be a wall on the second floor, but life makes fools of us all."
 
@JohnP FYI, there was another earlier major addition to the answer, but Matt Vincent didn't seem to mind it.
 
@Xirema Just me referring to Gary Gygax generally throwing stuff into modules just to be a thorn to people asking him to clarify things. (TBF, the guy did include his home phone number in early publications saying "call with any questions." IIRC.)
I'm imagining a bunch of complaints at an early con about a competition module having an "unclear width of room F3" and the next year's module having that-shaped room.
 
@nitsua60 hahaha, gotcha.
 
@NautArch This one?
> In the rules if any word is not a game mechanic with a special meaning, then it is to be taken as normal English. What is "Width" in English?
 
6:39 PM
@nitsua60 I understand that "F3" is the label for the room, but I keep imagining it as a room shaped like "F3"
 
@goodguy5 Prolly works.
 
@goodguy5 That's making into my next campaign. I'm not sure how, yet, but room F3 shaped-like-an-F3 is making it in.
 
@Delioth two doors on the f-prongs connecting to the top and middle 3-prongs. The middle prong is likely a secret door.
 
Could actually be really interesting if the top of the two are just plain connected, but the middle junction has a thin wall, so an encounter starts at the top past a "dead end" but enemies break through the wall after a turn or two
It's not one room if there's a door in the middle
 
6:43 PM
@NautArch yeah, same same. FWIW that got a reject vote before being approved as well. The reason I rolled back Lord's addition is because it was a "this is the answer I want", which in that case should be posted as a self answer, not edited into another quesiton.
 
@JohnP Yeah, agreed. But most importantly with the one I linked is Matt didn't undo it and made some minor edits after. So all good in the hood.
 
@Delioth koolaid man!
 
Speaking of weird ways to rule a room in a campaign module...
 
You have my attention
 
CMV: Ankhegs (Ankravs) are just spicy Kool-Aid men
 
6:48 PM
Last night during our LMoP session, the party got to the "Starry Cavern" part of the caves, and because I couldn't let a name like that go to waste on a visual metaphor, I decided that inexplicably, that room just opens up to an eerily convincing simulacrum of a star-filled sky.
No one in the party can Dispel Magic, so I don't have to decide what's behind it just yet, but that's a thing in the fiction of our setting now.
 
And this brings me to a question I need to ask."
What's the difference between a DM ruling and DM fiat
 
Word choice
 
@goodguy5 Rulings cover gaps in the rules where there's no definitive rule. DM fiat is explicitly overriding rules for [reasons]
 
hello
 
@goodguy5 I think it's the difference between a DM deciding on something ambiguous, and a DM deciding on something unspecified.
@Gwideon Salutations!
 
Ash
6:50 PM
@Xirema I like this
 
DM fiat gets much better gas mileage.
 
how is everyone
 
I.e. if the rules don't say what order 50% extra damage and 6 reduced damage happen in, you'd need a ruling. If the rules do say what order they happen in but the GM thinks that's stupid so reverses it, that's GM Fiat
 
@Delioth Probably this as well. Like, in my setting, I've half-way added the AL rule about characters whose racial features give flight capabilities, ruling that if you're a race that has an innate ability to fly, you can't use it until level 5.
 
(since 10 +50% -6 is different from 10-6 + 50%)
 
6:52 PM
That's DM fiat. There's no rule saying you should do that, nor a rule that's so poorly worded as to leave it ambiguous whether you should do that or not.
 
DM fiat?
 
(Ironically, AL decided to just make that rule official for season 9, apparently. Who knew I was a prophet!)
 
okay I'm caught up. Is it okay if I give my two cents
 
@Gwideon Certainly!
 
@Gwideon Inflation. It's now gonna cost 3 cents.
 
6:59 PM
I personally believe it is all right to overrule a rule if you and your party agree that the rule is negatively affecting your sessions. I don't think it's alright to overrule something suddenly and without reason. To me that just seems like a d**k move especially if it's something as important as damage scaling.
the game is written a certain way to try and keep a cohesive game but when you just change something out of the blue you lose that cohesiveness and the players lose abit of trust in you.
 
Oh, I'm absolutely not saying that you should change damage ordering; it was just the first example that came to mind that doesn't need a whole bunch of extra framing to make sense to describe Fiat VS Ruling
And absolutely shouldn't be changed mid-campaign without lots of discussion (i.e. if you have a fire wizard who's feeling useless in all fights, or a fire wizard who's absolutely destroying all fights, or similar)
 
@Delioth oh no I was just offering why i think fiat is harmful
 
Fiat's not necessarily harmful - it can be, but it can also be useful
Anything a GM can be harmful
 
*does
 
derp
 
7:04 PM
no, "does"
"derp" doesn't even work in that sentence :P
 
Giving all players an extra feat so they can flesh out their characters more is GM fiat, but few players will call it harmful (except maybe in 5e, where an extra feat can super-power some characters but be useless to others)
 
Sometimes a group finds that certain written rules, even when clear, don't really work for the game they want to play. Hence a DM fiat can help fix that.
 
Is there a difference between fiat and houserule?
 
true
 
@goodguy5 Not really, as far as I'm concerned
 
7:05 PM
but that's less fiat and more house rule.
I think of house ruling as being discussed with the party where as fiat is the dm making a change without consulting anyone
 
No, the DM should consult the group regardless. Fiat just means that the DM's table authority backs up the rule.
 
"Should" being the operative word
 
hmm
 
I'm hoping that lizard cleric comes in here. Love the question, even though I vtc
 
@goodguy5 The usual implication of "house rule" is that it behaves like a rule: if we're in this situation again, we'll apply this procedure again. "Fiat" doesn't really suggest that.
 
7:09 PM
That's my thinking as well
 
@goodguy5 They're usually synonymous. Although from what I've seen, houserules tend to be additive (i.e. creating a new rule), whereas fiat tends to be subtractive (i.e., removing an existing rule). But that may vary depending on who you ask.
 
In practice the terms are all used interchangeably.
 
similar to "additive" vs "subtractive", I've only ever seen it called fiat when it's negatively received by the players.
 
To me fiat sounds like it has a negative connotation to it
 
7:17 PM
@Gwideon The fiat brand of cars may take offense to that :P
@MarkWells Almost like Fiat is what they do when they aren't sure and need to move on. Then it becomes house rule or not later once confirmed if that was the right or wrong call.
 
let em. fiat sucks :P fite me
(jk, my only problem is when I see an "empty" space in the parking lot and it turns out that there's a Fiat hiding in there)
 
@NautArch Eh I don't like fiats anyway.
 
It can help, especially when the written system mechanics start to bog things down or create unfun situations for the players.
 
@Delioth On that subject, our Fighter is about to hit an average DPR of 30-ish reaching level 5 because they took Crossbow Expert, their level 4 ASI in dex, and are going to take Sharpshooter as the level 5 feat I'm offering each player for free. =3
 
What're the odds that a direct quote is identical across editions
 
7:22 PM
@NautArch Very low, but this has been discussed before. No guessing editions, even when it seems obvious which edition they're asking about.
 
Lower and lower as the quote grows longer, I'd bet.
 
koeydoke. We've bypassed that when the question has specific edition-only stuff, but i'll let it go.
 
IIRC, the counterargument is that they could be playing a hack (or otherwise similar system) that uses some of the official text, but is effectively a different game. So guessing edition would be incorrect, and therefore hasten the apocalypse
 
@MikeQ fair enough!
 
@Xirema I'm gonna be completely honest, I don't know 5e well enough to know how incredible or terrible that DPR is
 
7:37 PM
@Delioth At level 5 it's tipping towards the higher end of the scale.
Like, for context, a classical Level 20 GWF/GWM Strength-based Fighter deals, before involving the use of expendable resources, around 50-60DPR against an opponent whose AC is normal for their level (AC18-20).
 
Man, numbers in 5e are weird
 
Closer to 80-90 if you have a particular circumstance where you're basically guaranteed to land every single attack roll you make.
 
Right, bonus attacks have no particular penalty
 
@Delioth Yeah. Two-Weapon fighting has its own thing, but that only affects a single attack roll anyways.
 
For context, Pathfinder 2e Wizards probably have 20 AC around level 5 (10 + Trained=5+2 > 17, 14 Dex=+2 > 19, +1 fundamental armor rune > 20)
((calculation works for anyone unarmored, optimal armor+max dex will always be +5 total, or +6 total if you're using heavy armor; plus magic armor bonus))
 
7:50 PM
@Delioth Oh yeah, lol. In 5e the highest AC in the monster manual is the Terrasque at 25. No other creature has an AC that high.
 
E.g. optimally-armored character at level 1 will have 10+3+5=18 AC (possibly +2 if they raised a shield this round)
Yeah, Pathfinder 2e really likes scaling numbers so that "scary stuff" at level 3 is no longer scary at level 6 or 9
Since proficiency is your level plus [2/4/6/8] as long as you're trained or better
 
@Xirema that sounds problematic. But why are they getting free feats, again?
 
boop
 
@Delioth I mean, a few goblins generally aren't scary for level 6-9 (nice) characters in 5e either, but they can still manage to hit now and then.
 
@goodguy5 Yeah, in 2e your bonuses will stack up so that they very rarely hit - as in if they were hitting you on an 11 when you were level 1, they at best hit you on a 16 when you're level 6 (probably 17 due to magic armor; and you'll very often crit - as in if you were hitting on an 11 at level 1, at level 6 you at worst hit on a 6 and thus crit on a 16 (probably more like 5/15 or 3/13 depending on magic weapons, increased proficiency, and stat boost)
 
8:07 PM
@Joshjurg Because I'm not allowing feats to be taken as ASIs. All ASIs are only stat bonuses, but feats are acquired one per tier of play at levels 5, 11, 17.
 
Ah - and he's got Xbow Xpert from Variant Human?
 
@Joshjurg Yeah.
 
6
Q: Oathbow: does the first attack count as being against your Sworn Enemy?

VigilThe Oathbow, a magic weapon from the DMG, allows you to choose a target as your Sworn Enemy: When you use this weapon to make a ranged attack, you can, as a command phrase, say, "Swift death to you who have wronged me." The target of your attack becomes your sworn enemy until it dies or until...

 
Mostly I'm just doing it as an experiment to see if it completely breaks the game or not.
Players don't seem to have a problem with it.
 
@Xirema that's kinda neat idea. It means they can increaes the core stats, but they'll get guaranteed access to fun feats.
 
8:13 PM
@Gwideon Dry in what sense?
 
like kinda boring to read
 
@KorvinStarmast I asked this earlier about the celestial warlock question.
 
@MikeQ Correct, and we only allow hastening the apocalypse for Powered by the Apocalypse games :P
 
@NautArch Yeah. My general experience is that people don't usually want more than one or two feats anyways, so if we get to later tiers, the second + third feats might be good excuses to pick up some less-used feats that wouldn't ever see play if all the ASIs are too valuable to justify anything other than a build-critical feat.
 
[grumble grumble about needing to bolt more things onto the toy system that 5e is to make it interesting]
 
8:24 PM
@Xirema What about some builds that really are feat-critical? Just don't make those?
 
@JohnP welcome to the information age. :)
 
@Delioth lol
 
Something something play a system where you get to both make yourself better and also get cool things
 
@NautArch What are such builds? I've never known any that needed more than three feats to do anything other than eek out a few extra DPR in corner cases.
 
@KorvinStarmast or the disinformation age? noninformation? I dunno. I'm too apathetic to investigate it.
 
8:26 PM
@Xirema You don't need more than 3, but would be a bummer that a concept that could come online at the 2nd feat (level 8 if not vHuman or a fighter) is now Level 11.
 
@Xirema That's a neat idea. But I think it penalizes Fighters somewhat ...
 
@JohnP Solution to no-one communicating: start communicating exclusively via only two methods: Teams, and tennis balls with sticky notes attached
 
@NautArch Mm, that is one potential concern.
 
@Delioth The second option would be fun but.....difficult. I don't think I can throw a tennis ball 1800 miles.
 
@Xirema But only for those. Like I was building a doc holliday type character that needed Sharpshooter and xbow expert.
 
8:27 PM
@JohnP They'll just have to wait for it to come in the mail
 
@JohnP put the sticky on an icbm. problem solved.
all of them.
 
lol
 
@NautArch Hrm...Is payroll processed out of atlanta? If not, we are ON!
 
@JohnP Ask the D&D 5e peasant rail gun to help with that. Only problem then becomes skin friction and tennis ball possibly burning up ...
 
@KorvinStarmast They're peasants. Do we care?
 
8:29 PM
@NautArch I am intrigued by your suggestion and wish to subscribe to your newsletter!
@JohnP Yes, they have the D&D 5e rail gun monopoly.
 
@KorvinStarmast Please send coordinates address.
 
@KorvinStarmast Easy to subscribe. Step 1. Get a sticky note....
 
@KorvinStarmast Where's the rule for skin friction and tennis ball destruction?
 
@NautArch Just over there, behind the post office, next to the sewage plant.
 
If there's no rule I'm going to make a ruling that they don't matter
 
8:30 PM
@Delioth unsubscribe :P
 
@Delioth It's in the atomic splat book. 8^D
 
question this maybe off topic but what is everyone's opinion on block based programming languages such as scratch.
 
@Delioth That was only available during the AL 8.5 season ...
 
@Delioth Page 11. Just after the notes on ceiling height.
 
sorry just wondering
 
8:33 PM
@Gwideon Haven't played around with them. I've heard they're nice toys but too cumbersome to do anything real with
 
@Gwideon for what purpose? Just a general opinion?
 
@Delioth I've messed around with them alot and while they can be a bit cumbersome you can still do quite a bit with them
@JohnP just in general
and um can I send an example of something I've done.
 
Yeah, I'm not saying you can't do anything with them, but it's (probably) vastly easier to just learn JavaScript and throw together a few tools there to build a website than it is to code a full website in Scratch
 
scratch isn't really meant to make a website but yeah.
 
Visual makes things a bit more intuitive but also tends to be slow
 
8:36 PM
I agree
 
That's one of the useful parts about general programming languages
They're flexible
You can do number crunching, interesting problems, running servers, powering a GUI (whether it's a web-view or a native one), etc.
I'm not versed well enough in Scratch to say which of those you can actually do in it, though
 
I like to use scratch when I feel like coding but don't feel like dealing with complex syntax. it's kinda my relaxing language. I know what I can do with it and I know how to do it really easily so yeah for me it just allows me to put stuff together.
 
It's not bad, just limited and pointed at small children to teach concepts
 
true
 
When dealing with syntax, a decent IDE can help a lot
I know I screwed something up when vscode fails to make my code pretty colors and also puts red lines under everything
But then it'll also fix it for me
 
8:41 PM
true but yeah.
Um I kinda feel a bit childish using scratch sometimes but um yeah it's nice just being able to make stuff
and it's uniquely suited to making flash style games
sorry I'll shut up and move on
 
@Gwideon No, perfectly reasonable. Always use the appropriate tool for the job.
 
@Delioth grumble grumble modular rules
 
@JohnP Korvin looks at his Mk-46 homing torpedo What job isn't this the right tool for, I wonder?
 
8:57 PM
Modularity is great and that part of 5e is neat and nice; I'm just not a fan of how character building for 5e almost seems like WOTC decided "Players making choices breaks the game, so we'll only let them make a few choices over their career" rather than building a system that gives freedom to choose features while keeping the math close
(Really, you get... what, 10 choices in your character build?)
 
Wow. And people complained about 4e characters being on rails.
 

« first day (3309 days earlier)      last day (49 days later) »