@BESW I think I remember a chat message or comment by you with a link to a comic about evil always having (bad) reasons but good having no reason except being good but I cannot find it for the life of me. Do you by any chance know what I'm talking about? :)

> Evil is having reason, always, many and many.

@ACuriousMind Digger, by Ursula Vernon.

I mentioned it in this answer:

Ah! Thank you!

And if you haven't read Digger, I recommend it highly. The whole thing is available to read for free online, and in "This book could kill a man" omnibus print editions.

@Ash Third!

Alright, here I go

@Ash So do I! But the softcover, not the hardcover. Mostly because of shipping costs.

lol

Vernon threw out her back signing them.

ooof

wow

maybe should have taken that slightly easier eh?

The problem was that she was picking up a book from a pile, putting it on the table, signing it, then putting the book on another pile.

About halfway through they realized they should have other people doing the book-moving bits.

I'm not sure how I feel about good being characterized as reason-less, but then again I guess one of the stereotypical "good" acts is kindness without expectation of reciprocation.

(source of photo and anecdote)

I figured. Calling it a lack of reason seems weird to me though.

I also think Ed's not supposed to have the definitive concept of good. Ursula Vernon doesn't tend to have her characters speak with Absolute Truth because she doesn't think she has access to that.

@Yuuki Without really knowing the context of this comic (yet), I always interpreted it as how an "evil" being views "good". They are "evil" at least partly because they are unable to comprehend the emergent benefits of altruism.

And goodness knows Ed's got a lot of experience with evil... but also he's kinda messed up because of that.

I think Ed would find enlightened self-interest to be... not great.

But the idea of evil as "punishing the world for not being like in head" is pretty spot-on for a lot of contexts.

I consider evil to be what we get when we indulge our material urges at the expense of our spiritual urges, rather than in service of them. This does tend to look like lashing out at things for not satisfying us.

According to terrible alignment chart memes, evil is fatty or comfort food.

I still don't even understand how that one worked.

@Ash I was just tempted to do that, as well. I shall stop now, but I did get until “What good is a God that doesn't fossilize?”

:D

(From the discussion with Ed linked above, not from the beginning, mind you!)

@Yuuki Indulging selfish and impulsive desires at the cost of more better things seems pretty evil to me.

@nitsua60 I like this.

@GreySage Is there anything better than a donut fresh out of the microwave?

@Yuuki Donut fresh full stop

@BESW what do you mean by "enlightened self interest"?

@trogdor Doing things that are good for other people, but not because they're good for other people: instead, because doing good things for others will result in good things for you.

ah ok

It looks like altruism, but it's different in that someone being altruistic will do good for others even if they can't see any personal gain in it. Someone acting out of enlightened self-interest will stop doing good for others if they don't think it'll benefit themselves also.

yes, I understand this

I just didn't know this is what you meant

What about short-term losses versus long-term benefits?

Well, I guess there isn't really a distinction.

Enlightened self-interest is usually about making that calculation for delayed gratification, yes.

@BESW What about the rule-utilitarist version of such enlightened altruism where it's not about the specific instance of altruism but about the belief that generally promoting altruism will lead to more net personal gain than not doing so? it's equally calculational, but it will also lead to instances of altruistic deeds without direct personal gain.

That would probably usually fall into a different category, if its purpose is truly to maximize net gain rather than personal gain.

Rule utilitarianism is usually focused on maximizing the good of as many people as possible, and offers no guarantees that the practitioner will be one of those people. It could be a strategy employed by enlightened self-interest, but it'd be a risky one.

(I think ESI is more of a motive while RU is more of a method.)

Fools! I have hidden cupcakes under each of your chairs, if you eat them,..... oh wait I didn't think of after that part, just give those cupcakes back now. note to self, long term planning part needs to be achieved first :P

Here's a Rangoon Riff episode on a didactic 1941 short film promoting enlightened self-interest. And part 2. (CW language, puppets, cheesy skits.)

@Ash Frankly I'd be much more worried that someone managed to figure out where a bunch of chatizens are right this instant, around the globe, and also logistically got them cupcakes.

@Ash nooooooooooooo

@BESW I guess what I meant was: What if someone concludes that (largely) unconditional altruism will lead to their largest personal gain in the long run, by motivating others to also be unconditionally altruistic in other scenarios? This is reminiscent of rule-utilitarianism, but still motivated by self-interest.

my evil plan is ruined! how dare you!

well,... it wasn't much of a plan but still

@JoelHarmon Doesn't matter; got cupcake.

@ACuriousMind You make an excellent point.

@JoelHarmon We could start a religion about this.

@ACuriousMind Yeah, so I think RU can be motivated by ESI but RU isn't inherently an ESI-motivated praxis.

@BESW I agree with that

@JoelHarmon uh uh uh just ignore that part?

XD

@Yuuki Knowing the current location of internet users and delivering them goods is basically just Amazon, isn't it?

I'm Amazon, you caught me

@JoelHarmon I think they already have plenty of worshipers

I do? Where are they?

@GreySage You get to worship from the comfort of your own home. What's not to love?

The path to hell is paved with good intentions cupcakes.

(source)

[slathers butter biscuit with honey and more butter, crams into mouth]

@ACuriousMind I feel like DM;GC could be a new internet meme.

I'm more of a muffin/biscuit kind of indulger, really.

If I want a super-sweet pastry I'm gonna go for cookies or brownies.

haha? you all fell for my evil plan? they were totally like,... full of gluten or something?

Cakes tend to be a bit disappointing for me.

I used to love cake

now I kinda at least don't miss them very much

....I should make pumpkin coffee oatmeal cookies.

I still like cupcakes though, much smaller and usually the flavor is something you couldn't get away with making in a larger package

@Ash Did you put mustard in them?

I've been experimenting with using gingerbread spices in brownies.

Mustard, molasses, ginger, cloves.

Also cayenne pepper because I'm me.

lol

I'll just bake a whole Ginger root and see how that goes

oh god wat

@Ash Ah, yeah, no, not so much. Mustard powder.

Also just brownies with cayenne pepper and chopped bits of candied ginger? [thumbs up]

hehe

You can also put in some really strong coffee in place of a bit of the liquid.

@Ash Really, it's hard to make baking worse by adding the bottom of a pot of coffee to it.

@Ash Walnuts.

The wallnuts will arise and dominte the pantryfolks

Then, on to the Counter!

And dare we dream, the fridge!