Haha

@Ben If the Belt is off the table, let me know and I can see what other options there could be for this (including Gauntlets of Ogre strength to get you to 19).

I think it should be fine. Depending on how cruel the DM wants to be, he might remove the belt/destroy it as part of the game (temporarily I'd hope)

And as a level 20 Barb, I'd have similar stats anyway.

@Ben wooof - if you're worried about that, you may seriously want to reconsider the TWF build - or at least build it without a fighter dip so you can get that barb capstone.

Haha yeah. If it does happen, I daresay it'd likely be temporary.

@NautArch My stats definitely suggest the TWFBarb20 is one of the best possible builds if you don't have an item magically boosting your Strength score.

@Ben just not good for you to drop to 8 strenght :)

but @Xirema's TWFBarb20 seems like a safe option that reduces that risk.

@doppelgreener Re: Your comment about designer reasons, does that mean this question is now off-topic? And should I self-VTC it?

Oh, @NautArch did you contribute racial features into the build? Not that it matters, but at minimum a Mintoaur's Str is 9

@Xirema is the twf build using shortswords as the headings imply, or battleaxes? increasing average damage by about 1 per hit

@NautArch Also a good point. A Primal Champion in an Antimagic Field is still a guy with 24 strength. Less so for the guy that has a magic belt keeping him that strong.

@goodguy5 TWF is using short swords.

I didn't consider Rapiers/Longswords/Battle Axes from taking the Duelling Feat.

And Str, Int or Wis get a +1 too

I feel like the dualwielder feat is ... "implied"? in the option to take twfs

@MikeQ Probably, and entirely optional, in that order. :)

@Ben yes, my bad! I meant 9 STR. Functionally identical, though.

Yeah

@goodguy5 I can rerun the stats. I didn't include it because it wasn't obvious someone would prefer it over the ASI, especially in the scenario where they're losing an ASI to the Fighter3/Barb17 build.

@NautArch Am assuming the other +1 went to Wis?

It's obvious to me, but ymmv. (because of how I think about the build)

(I can also swap out the 2h-battleaxe with a Greataxe for the 2h build, since there's not a lot of reasons to just use a battleaxe if you're using the Versatile feature anyways)

oh yea. greataxxe #allday

@Xirema Yeah--brutal crit is... brutal.

@Xirema Beholders have an antimagic ray, right? Wouldn't be surprised to see some of that at L20....

@Ben hmm, i need to check the v3 you sent. I thought it was just +1 str.

ah! missed the Conqueror's Virtue.

@NautArch Scrap it! Complete re-spec! :P

Stats for Roll [[Primal Champion Greataxe 2h vs AC16]x2]
====
Mean: 33.450000
Median: +34
Mode: +35
95% Range: [+13,+59]

Stats for Roll [[Primal Champion Battleaxe Duelling vs AC16]x2+Primal Champion Battleaxe Duelling (Off) vs AC16]
====
Mean: 37.575000
Median: +38
Mode: +40
95% Range: [+18,+58]

Stats for Roll [[Fighter Dip TWFFS Battleaxe Duelling vs AC16]x3]
====
Mean: 34.725000
Median: +36
Mode: +41
95% Range: [+11,+60]

Stats for Roll [[Champion Fighter Dip TWFFS Battleaxe Duelling vs AC16]x3]

I don't think there was another odd value @Ben. I'd probably put it in STR to just to get to 10 and have the base 0 modifier should magic go bye-bye.

Yeah. Probably the best option

@goodguy5 It's a significant improvement across the board, but it doesn't change my tier list from before.

oh yea. thems the stats

Worth noting: the Barb20TWF is only about 3% higher than Barb17/ChampFighter3TWF at AC16, but it becomes about 10% higher at AC 24.

My concern was the critical difference. that's average of 4 damage per crit.

@Xirema and that includes the increase odds for crits?

In general, the higher the AC, the better the pure barb build is relative to the hybrid build, until you hit the point where only crits are landing, at which point the Hybrid build gets better (but both are still <10 DPR at that point)

@NautArch Yeah. The only difference between the Fighter Dip and Champion Fighter Dip builds is the crit-on-19 feature.

good to know that build diversity doesn't make a huge difference in effectiveness

I also like that polearm master "stacks" with great weapons master

reroll them d4s!

I feel like polearm master is too tasty for a pure barb to pass up.

"Yes, I WOULD like a free excuse to use my bonus action that doesn't cause exhaustion"

Would anyone be willing to try out 5e gestalt for a one-shot

My meatspace campaign is basically dead due to scheduling impossibility, and I'd like to DM something

@Xirema right, but I'm just wondering if @Xirema included that increased crit damage chance in the calculations.

@MikeQ when?

@NautArch Right now! Roll for initiative, you've already been playing for the past few hours

(I don't know. Maybe this weekend?)

darnit, forgot the dice command here

20d20

don't think ic an do this weekend :(

@NautArch I mean, yeah, that's where the +2.4DPR comes from in that comparison. Against an AC16 target, the Hybrid build gains +2.4DPR if it goes 3Fighter/17Barb instead of 1Fighter/19Barb.

@Xirema wow, that's a serious bummer!

crit fishing seems not worth it?

@NautArch I think you mean, it seems fun.

@NautArch I mean, it's definitely an improvement, and it's only ~0.65DPR lower than the pure TWFBarb build.

Ha, this question. My level 18/19 party just fought Zariel.

... Oh. Something I didn't take into account. None of these are using the Barbarian's Reckless Attack feature. I feel like I should be adding that.

probz

Advantage on the attacks increases their crit chance by a lot.

Which we've seen affects the outcome of these rolls.

no one swings two battleaxes un-recklessly.... reckfully?

@MikeQ I am in if the ToA is off the burner ...

1d20

@mikeQ by "gestalt" what do you mean? High level characters?

2d20

y'know.... pick two classes take best of both? gestalt

@DiceService Hmm, where did John go?

@goodguy5 I have never done that. 3e thing? PF thing?

3.x thing

well....

someone MAY have done gestalt before 3.x, but for all intents and purposes....

It's kind of like the opposite of L6 games.

barb+fighter gestalt 20 would be ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiicccccccccccccckkkkkkkkkkkkkk‌​kkkkkkkkkkk

@MikeQ How would we be setting this up. Char level X, gestalt with any two classes?

Or Fighter Rogue

Any caster and Warlock

@goodguy5 Any caster + Fighter

Paladin/Warlock or Paladin / Sorcerer could be quite the powerhouse.

I feel like Barbarian Warlock could work with all the weird effects you get

Hunter Druid, just so you could be a bear with a bear

Bard/Warlock might get a little sick ...

The defining trait of Gestalt is that every build is overpowered

@KorvinStarmast Sure, probably. I guess that means no multiclassing.

@MikeQ Do you want to run it? What level?

@goodguy5 Okay, the stats got interesting when Advantage got added. gist.github.com/Xirema/52b301628448af67b6c2ef37a0c7b34e

It also means Crit Fishing becomes more valuable with advantage, @NautArch

Tl;DR: Below AC26, Hybrid Barb17/ChampFighter3 is better, above AC26, TWFBarb20 is better, and then at ACLudicrous, the Hybrid takes over again.

So if you can get away with only ever fighting with advantage, the Hybrid build wins out.

@KorvinStarmast I have no idea. At least 3. At most 6.

(a reminder that the highest AC for a published creature is 25)

@MikeQ I will be on travel for a couple of days, so I can make a character or two in roll20.

that's so exciting.

@GreySage As a DM who tries to prioritize player-driven storytelling versus the system's intended difficulty, I am 100% ok with this

@Xirema You have a ~50% chance of critting each turn!

@MikeQ Story > Players feeling tension > balance

that's very exciting

@Delioth More like... Player shenanigans > DM's attempt at story > Balance

@goodguy5 According to my program, approximately 46.8559%.

yea. that's ~50

(An encounter should further or tell a story; a series of encounters should cause the players to feel some tension, regardless of whether it's actually dangerous; and balance only matters between members of the party - it doesn't matter if they're more powerful than any similar-level encounters, it just matters that they aren't outshining each other too much)

*audible gasping sounds*

Didn't a question around here decide that you could use the versatile property on a weapon. attack. "switch" to one handedness. pull out another weapon, then twf?

Oddly enough, I have pretty cooperative players typically. Who also have some experience behind the screen as well. It's sometimes hard to get them off the tracks, which is awkward because I don't lay tracks until they're chugging along them (improvise everything - it works if you have good system mastery and a library of "about right" encounters)

@Delioth Improvise everything requires too much prep :(

the lazy GM is a good read, I hear

I improvise about half of things

@Delioth I've found that my DM style isn't ideal for players who like to feel rewarded for memorizing the system, playing "fairly" by adhering to the rules, and optimizing their characters according to the "intended" difficulty curve

@GreySage I've not had that issue

My players are somewhere in between. They like crunchiness, but also lose themselves in their characters once dice start rolling - they also know they can come to me and ask if a character is optimal and get a response ("it'll work, but if you want to get a little extra out of it use this feat instead of that one - or this other one really fits your character as far as I can see them; your choice, of course")

Question - When Multiclassing, I don't get the Skills do I?

Oof, another alignment question. This time, in the flavor of "is unintentional harm evil?" Part of me knows that these questions are on topic for the site, part of me wishes alignment questions had a canonical "it's up for interpretation due to wildly different definitions of Good, Evil, and Neutral, and who's point of view is used as the source of alignment" answer

Ooh, wait; it looks like that's now being closed as Opinion based sometimes? Ignore my prior comment

@Delioth I think there's a meta about alignment questions.

@Ben There's apparently a table for it? What I can find says there's a multiclassing table that will tell you exactly what proficiencies you get

Ok

(I just don't have much experience with 5e to be able to say offhand)

^ What you gain from multiclassing into Class X.

Does anyone play Dresden Files Roleplaying Game?

@Twiggy I think @BESW has experience with the system

Thanks for the reminder to check on Peace Talks release....still not out :(

@Xirema Thanks for mentioning, I sometimes forget meta exists. Found the one and am happier with the site for it (I must just see a bunch of alignment questions and miss them getting closed as POB)

@Xirema Ok so no skills - Acrobatics, Animal Handling, etc?

@Ben Only if you multiclass into Rogue or Bard.

Ok. Fair enough :)

Thanks!

@MikeQ Just say what it will be ...

@Xirema Or Ranger

@Delioth @Xirema The Alignment Meta Answer that provides which we can do, and which we cannot do

@KorvinStarmast What it will be ... ?

@Delioth That too. Didn't spot that.

@Delioth I was working on a frame challenge (use background/trait/flaw/bond to pick an alignment) when it got closed and two answers mod deleted until the question can be put into proper form.

@MikeQ gestalt game, and what level you'd like to do/see.

@KorvinStarmast Actually seems to me only yours was mod deleted, the two others are "deleted by owner"

@KorvinStarmast Oh. I have some loose ideas but haven't finalized anything yet. I was just trying to gauge interest from my fellow chatizens.

@kviiri Right you are. I though Zachiel's was mod deleted also, but when I go back and review I see Zach got it.

@kviiri and now it's undeleted? Never mind, I'll have a draft in the text file if the question gets edited well enough to re open.

@KorvinStarmast Do you think level 4 is reasonable?

Hey I'm thinking up a character for 5e she's going to be a wizard or sorcerer and specializes in magical research. The problem with her is she doesn't consider the consequences of her experiments and only cares about learning the limitations of various spells and creating her own "improved versions". I'm wondering what alignment she would be.

@MageintheBarrel Wizard alignment

@MageintheBarrel The first question that springs to mind is, does your table actually use alignment for anything?

@MageintheBarrel @kviiri has the most important question. But that is sounding very Neutral to me.

@MageintheBarrel What's your definition of Good/Neutral/Evil, Lawful/Neutral/Chaotic?

Because that's, well... not exactly a rarity but certainly less and less common. 5e has barely any mechanics for alignment so ignoring alignment and "just being yourself" is rather easy.

@MikeQ Sure, I am happy to go with that. It's right before the big power spike of level 3 spells and two attacks for martials

Because my interpretation of what's Lawful Good might well be vastly different from your interpretation

^^^^ All the reasons why we prefer these kinds of questions go to Chat instead of the main site. ;)

@MageintheBarrel By Players Guide, do you mean Players Handbook?

yeah @KorvinStarmast

I'd suggest that you vary from the player creation sequence in the book to start out with the character's background. Pick trait, bond, flaw, and values. Then, look at an alignment that fits your character's background features to get the best fit that you can.

@MageintheBarrel I'll give you an example in a few minutes.

@MageintheBarrel From my perspective, doing terrible things out of carelessness still falls within the purview of Evil. It would almost certainly be some flavor of Neutral Evil or Chaotic Evil though. If you're doing it for a noble cause (i.e. the research could end up saving more lives than it harms in the research process) there's probably a case for some degree of Neutral.

@Xirema For an opposed view, I never attribute to malice that which can be explained by mere incompetence or ignorance. As I see it, malice/evil requires intention.

@MageintheBarrel How do you plan your character's recklessness to manifest in actual gameplay? That's probably far more relevant than the choice of their alignment.

@KorvinStarmast Neither do I; but I don't consider Incompetence or Ignorance to be Neutral. ;)

And as a contrast to @Xirema, by my view of alignment she's sacrificing of herself (her time and energy to research), for her own benefit (knowledge), which places her squarely Neutral. Probably True Neutral since she's neither for a code, nor opposed ot a code

my idea of evil is something done with the intent to cause harm and good is the intent to help others while nuetral is when neither are considered

@Xirema That's just your opinion, man (Lebowski reference) ;)

I kind of like the alignment discussion on this website

@MageintheBarrel That seems fair. Are the "experiments" hurting anybody? Do the "improved" versions involve spawning demons?

@Delioth If she's only sacrificing herself, then I agree. Based on the original question that got submitted though, I got the sense that she was harming people other than herself in her experiements.

@MageintheBarrel Then roll with that. Is your DM and the rest of your table mostly in accord with your view?

@NautArch Isn't that based on 3.5e?

there's no dnd near me due to the fact that I live in the boonies so I'm thinking of starting my own

@MageintheBarrel But at the end of the day, @kviiri has the bigger points to make. Develop your personality. Talk to your DM about it so you avoid My Guy Syndrome, and then ask the DM if alignment will really have any mechanical consequence in their game.

@Xirema Her intent is to sacrifice of herself. Unintended side-effects don't play into it (if she knows of the side effects and intentionally makes those sacrifices of others, then it skews towards evil)

@KorvinStarmast I dunno. There's no specific system mentioned.

@MageintheBarrel If you're starting your own it's much more tractable to find others if you become the GM

@Delioth Yeah, I think we philosophically disagree on this point. I care a lot less about intent when judging Alignment.

@MageintheBarrel have you used roll20.net? You can find games there.

@Xirema Yeah - I use the intent of the "do-er" as the single source of truth because it's more appealing than using "some dude in the sky" or "the cosmos' morality" or whatever.

I prefer the Elder Scrolls approach to determining alignment. Come up with some hypothetical questions about how a character would react, and then estimate their position on the good/evil and lawful/chaotic axes. And then completely ignore it for the rest of the game.

@NautArch My session zero always has the time where I tell the players something like "we're here to play together. If you're going to have a character that can't do that, then all of the players should be on the same page"

Intent obviously matters; if someone is trying to make a panacea, but they make a mistake in the formula and it kills their test subjects, that doesn't drop them in Evil territory.

I've always viewed alignment as a means to an end for helping develop a personality.

one case she causes an avalanch by firing off an explosive spell in the mountains to test how snow and cold air would affect it she just fired it off she didn't think of the obvious problem that it would cuase or the fact that a village was nearby

@NautArch - I'm confused... I start with 15 Con/Dex, I get a +1 Con/Dex at level 4, then +2 Con at level 8, then 2 feats at 12 an 16, but the stats you gave tell me I have 18 dex..?

@Xirema Now if they noticed they made a mistake in the formula but decided to test it anyways...

@Yuuki Yeah.

@MageintheBarrel OK, here we go with a proposed Trait/Ideal/Bond/Flaw for the Sage background that seems to fit your character. Ready?

of course she realized that she was in serious trouble if she got caught so she made a run for it afterwards

yeah i'm ready

@Ben If you do the 2 feats, you stop at 16 dex.

@Yuuki Hey, formulas cost money. Why waste those ingredients when peasants are a cheap and inexhaustible resource?

@Xirema Although then there comes the question of if they noticed they made a mistake with the formula, decided to test it anyways, and it turns out the mistake makes a cure.

Ok

The build originally had one feat. But then I offered Mobile.

Either take the +1AC, or become a kiting nightmare.

@MageintheBarrel Suppose the wizard has their sweetroll stolen. They see someone else with a similar-looking sweetroll. What do they do?

A) Steal the other person's sweetroll

B) Tell the guards to investigate a potential sweetroll thief

C) Summon a demon

D) Persuade the other person to exchange the sweetroll

E: buy another

is that cheating?

F) You didn't need that sweetroll anyway. They're probably hungry.

i like f the best

^we found the paladin/cleric

@goodguy5 Cinnamon Roll-Good

G) Sweetrolls are bad for your health, you'd be better off with a nice cheese wheel.

@MageintheBarrel Trait I’m convinced that people are always trying to steal my secrets. (That's why she locks herself away to do her researches) Ideal Knowledge. The path to power and self-improvement is through knowledge. (Obsessed with learning through experiments) Bond I’ve been searching my whole life for the answer to a certain question. (experiments, and laser like focus) Flaw I am easily distracted by the promise of information. (whoops, forgot safety precautions ...)

@goodguy5 actually in my case it's more sour grapes

That's just an example from the book. you can tweak those, from the Sage background, to get closer to your character ideal.

I usually mix and match from other backgrounds

@goodguy Yeah, that too.

so sage is a subclass of wizard?

@MageintheBarrel It's a background type.

@MageintheBarrel No, Sage is a background

Basically what you did before starting adventuring (in Sage's case, studied lore)

or, for trait, borrow one from Guild Artisan ... I believe that anything worth doing is worth doing right. I can’t help it—I’m a perfectionist

i like that one

@MageintheBarrel Anyway, my two cents is, if this is your first time playing DnD I recommend you to make a character less morally ambiguous. DnD is a team effort and playing a wild gun will easily result in bad time even with experienced players.

Or for bond ... My workshop is the most important place in the world to me ... a slight change in the Guild Artisan bond ...

There's nothing with playing a goody-two-shoes classic hero.

Or Flaw from Hermit .. I’d risk too much to uncover a lost bit of knowledge

Honestly, something like a not-uptight Paladin is probably one of the best things to play for a beginner (if you're not a stickler for the Code it can be fine to roleplay, and if you need it your Code gives a concrete set of guidelines to fall back on)

If anything, that might be more edgy given the average D&D character.

Paladin, Oath of the Ancients, because life is supposed to be fun and thrilling.

i'm going with it cause it's pretty much identical to me irl minus the large scale

"Reckless and ready to face the consequences" sounds fun on paper but in practice, it's never just you or your character who suffers the consequences for anything that happens.

I recommend not worrying about alignment too much, and focusing more about getting along with the other players (and their characters)

@MageintheBarrel Ah, does the fire marshall look at you askance when you prepare experiments in real life? 8^D

i generally try avoiding doing things that'll get me arrested

Ah, "Pragmatically Neutral"

@MageintheBarrel That's not really something that makes it fit better with your average group of DnD players though.

@MageintheBarrel Anyway, I'd suggest going through the Players Handbook and browsing all of the background Trait, Ideal, Bond, and Flaw to get a sense of how to make a custom one for your character.

Then, and only then, if you really want to, go back to the alignments in chapter 1 and see what fits.

if the purge was a thing I'd totally cut lose so many things i'm curoius about

@MageintheBarrel Good advice in any circumstance

Then after that, remember this about alignment: it is what your character aspires to.

@Yuuki nothing wrong*

@KorvinStarmast (Once more: Depending on your interpretation)

I'll avoid gving examples

From the book A typical creature in the worlds of Dungeons & Dragons has an alignment, which broadly describes its moral and personal attitudes

brb mom wants to to do laundry and won't lay off