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1:09 AM
Morning all
So say we all.
@KorvinStarmast with apologies for extreme obtuseness, in a recent comment when you say "a feature of this request" do you mean of the meta.SE request for comment, or of my meta.rpg post? (Thanks.)
Or at least those in the > UTC +10
Or... Which ever one it is lol
@Ben There's a bit of a range there, I think.
@Ben I say "morning all." But I'm like one of those guards in a labyrinth that'll spear you after lying about the door you're looking at.
@nitsua60 The star board informs me you're reading Mistborn. How are you liking it so far?
1:20 AM
It's morning for all those who exist in the 0-10 timezone haha
@JoelHarmon I'm enjoying it. I'm into part 3; Vin's been into the LR's keep (and barely survived) near the end of part 2, if that helps you locate me in time.
@Ben There's also the interpretation of "it's morning whenever I wake up after five hours or more of sleep, regardless of the position of the sun"
@nitsua60 Sure does.
@JoelHarmon Touche
I'll certainly finish out the trilogy after this. (Grabbed the box-set for 10 bucks on Amazon.)
Did anyone warn you that the plan for that world is a trilogy of trilogies, the third trilogy isn't out yet (but a novella is), and that this world ties into a much larger Cosmere setting?
1:25 AM
No, but I lived through The Wheel of Time (rereading the entire series start-to-n each time a new book was released), so I think I can handle just about anything =)
Well, that's not quite true. I didn't start until 4 or 5 books were already out, so I'm probably 6 readings of an RJ book shy of that ^^ description.
@nitsua60 The big epic novel series, Stormlight Archives, has released three of a planned ten books. Each of those is over a thousand pages. And I'm impatient for the next book to come out.
Wait, does Sanderson have two series in progress right now?
@nitsua60 More than two, depending on what you like to count.
"Nothing" might be the best answer now =)
(And somewhere in all that he must have taken the break to write 3 Wheel of Time books, no?)
@nitsua60 I hope I cleared that up on meta
1:29 AM
@nitsua60 Somewhere in there, yes.
@JoelHarmon (Which he did an amazing job of, btw. Anyone who gave up on Jordan around book 9 or 10: I suggest you grunt through and get to the part where Sanderson takes over. He writes like it's old (books 1-5) Jordan, but pulling threads together into a tight weave (Weave?) rather than just spinning them out.)
(Which I guess is just a really long-winded way of saying the horrible truth: "the series got a lot better when the author died.")
@KorvinStarmast I think so--yup. Thanks.
@nitsua60 I gave up on him around book 6 or 7, when I complained to a friend that the books were getting way too slow, and being told that it really slowed down around book 9.
No small part of that was the female characters in particular were nearly indistinguishable to me.
Yeah. If 6 were too slow, I would not suggest pushing through seven and eiiight and niiiiiine and tennnnnnnnnn to get to Sanderson.
It's been suggested that I just wiki those books to find out what happens, then start up with Sanderson.
@JoelHarmon I've got grading I need to do: I can't get started on the horribleness that is RJ's depiction of females.
1:34 AM
@nitsua60 It's more of a lack of depiction....
Anyway, good luck with the grading.
@JoelHarmon I think EWoT has decent one-page versions of each book. [rummages]
Oh, no, I'm thinking of EWoT's summaries which are broken out by chapter. But each chapter's about a paragraph, so you can cruise through a book in 20 or 30 minutes. See encyclopaedia-wot.org/books/acos/index.html for example.
And depending on how deep down this hole you want to fall, you might find Sanderson's read-through notes on WoT interesting....
@nitsua60 That seems like a thing to do after finishing the series.
Even that will end up being a bigger project, assuming I get to it, as I don't have the time for reading that I once did.
I missed a Wheel of Time conversation? Dang
@nitsua60 Hey! I did that, lol. My brother ended up convincing to me to do just what you suggested and you are right. Very worth it.
@DavidCoffron It's still more or less ongoing.
I love Wheel of Time. Some plot holes that bother me a bit, but for the most part its a very juicy story.
1:43 AM
Or my "not-grading" conversation, as I think of it.
@nitsua60 I should be doing college work... so same-ish
I really want some writing from the Age of Dreams. Or Might. I mix up my Ages sometimes.
Sho-cars and shock lances, male and female Aes Sedai... gimme some of those books. The Forsaken when they were Aes Sedai?
I don't think either of those are Age names (unless Im forgetting something)
1:46 AM
(Those who were, at least.)
Age of Legends?
Age of Legends?
I'm mixing up Krynn and Randland Ages, methinks.
Yeah a story about Telamon would be super cool
I'm also getting mixed up by a kid whose serifs on his 7s are so large and disconnected that I keep thinking he's writing 17 instead of 7.
@nitsua60 those are some big serifs
What if that was a translation error in a story? People misreading serifs
1:49 AM
Plot twist: there were 17 dwarves all along!!!
Seventeen deadly sins!
That's a lot of dwarves. It was already questionable having so many with the young princess lost in the forest but 17?
OMG, the title of the Kevin Spacey and Morgan Freeman and Brad Pitt movie that I always pronounce in my head "sesevenen" is actually "seseventeenen"!!!
@nitsua60 I want the 5 hour extended cut or riot!
@DavidCoffron Turns out it was just a 3rd-grade field trip.
@nitsua60 That would be a twist. It wasn't miners but minors
1:52 AM
What kind of school issues pickaxes to 3rd-graders?
The school of hard rocks.
That was... rough
He could have been gneiss about it.
@nitsua60 That's almost the plot of a world I'm building for D&D...
@nitsua60 Jack Black, principal?
1:56 AM
(except the mantle is the Phlogisten and the crust is the cave walls that as you dig through gravity increases exponentially and you can't progress further)
@KorvinStarmast Likely.
@nitsua60 How did the game go Saturday?
@KorvinStarmast Good. TPK avoided by fiat/unanimous consent decree.
@nitsua60 Cool, sorry I wasn't able to join in. (Was my aggressive move in session 1 why they were in hot water?) (Pun intended)
(The boat you-all were entering into turned into a killing field. But there was plot to be had beyond that TPK, so we said "let's use the magic of a jump-cut to see you walk into the next room with a file of dead bodies--not yours--in the background.")
1:58 AM
Ah, so it was my fault
@KorvinStarmast No, not really. 3 in the party is rough on the action economy.
@nitsua60 And we seemed to be doing so well ....
@nitsua60 seconded. that encounter requires either more folks in the party, or more CC
Ok, no spoilers, and I am off to bed. best wishes.
And I think the reality of "we're playtesting and feedback's due in 48 hours" sort of took recon/planning off the table.
1:59 AM
@nitsua60 quite, it's also hard to recon if you ask me
@nitsua60 Yeah.
@KorvinStarmast Have a good night. Next week is a firm "maybe" for me at this point.
@Shalvenay Yeah, though a stealthy character, or a druid-cum-bilge rat might be able to get something done. Or heck, at L11 a spell or a familiar....
Okay, I gotta run, everyone. Have a good night.
2:12 AM
@nitsua60 I mean, hard to spot the adds -- I wouldn't fault someone for recon'ing it and thinking it was a reasonable encounter
@nitsua60 Good night!
2:25 AM
Can someone make this guy hurry up and call me back?
2:38 AM
Currently at a client's office waiting for a call.
Q: Are abbreviations ok in reference to dnd?

rpgstarAround the site there are many things that are abbreviated examples are: D&D/d&d/DnD all mean Dungeons & Dragons LTH meaning the dnd 5e spell Leomunds tiny hut in This question about the interactions of familiars and Leomunds tiny hut Are these ok to use? The first example is one that is used...

2:50 AM
I guess I'm going to end up being my own expert; I'm trying another long sequence that should end up with a pressure suit because somebody wants to rule against me about the interpretation of flying speed
In space?
yeah; we took the fly rule the same way "know" the fall rule was intended; a really bad approximation of terminal velocity
3:10 AM
it's surprisingly hard to find out from google searches what happens if tree sap is used in a vacuum
@Joshua hrm, desiccation would be expected at a minimum, and you'd also lose all the VOCs as well
get a vacuum desiccator and throw a dish of tree sap in it?
I'm just looking for a stupid sealent because I don't thing mending's going to create the correct composite when I cast it on a brokeh sphere with my head inside it
3:31 AM
And what game system rules are these? Starfinder? Starjammer?
In /this/ case I don't think it's going to matter. Mending is a stock cantrip.
3:54 AM
Got a mostly new sequence; spells needed Create Bonfire, Create or Destroy Water, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Thaumurgy, Feather Fall, Dispel Magic, Fly, Fabricate, Resilient Sphere, Teleportation Circle, Wall of Force, True Seeing, True Polymorph (*)
* Can dispense with needing this by getting one wish and wishing "Lich is a valid polymorph target for the Polymorph spell"
4:13 AM
If the decanter of endless water rocket works with theoretical efficiency it would provide 2520 feet/second^2 of acceleration. If I can get 1/30 of that I still get 2.6gees of acceleration. See you.
@Joshua LOL
I'm mildly annoyed that the 5e PC lich stuff is all homebrew leaving the only way to become said lich as True Polymorph.
The nice thing about the steam rocket is it's light enough to be a jetpack and therefore count as a worn item for feather fall.
@Joshua LOL
4:39 AM
@Joshua Ah, but the decanter assumes someone will be holding it, and makes no mention of propelling them.
5:30 AM
Question... Is there an equivalent of dream feast that exists in 5e?
@Ben Nope.
5e only has really weirdly niche spells if they're "classics".
I don't even think 3.5 had that one.
@Miniman Doubtful; it's from the "inner sea" series of splat books where they started experimenting, resulting in a bunch of original albeit strange material
@Miniman Umm... Yes?
Oh wait... No
PF != 3.5 lol
5:43 AM
Yeah, anything that was in PF and not in 3.5 is almost guaranteed to not be in 5e.
Well, except skill merges.
Ah fair enough
Yeah for some reason I had a brain derp and thought PF was 3.5 for a second haha
Hmmm. I wonder who published the skill merges first, PF or 4e.
Google is being unhelpful.
So just, whether PF or 4e was released first? We were talking about that in the chat a few days ago.
PF was published in 2009... Does that sound right?
as a standalone system, yes, that sounds correct. so 4e was earlier in publishing rules.
1 hour later…
7:02 AM
PF exists in large part because of 4e
7:58 AM
Next question: who developed pf and who developed 4e? Cos someone would have come up with it first, and then the other "stole" the idea haha
Unless they were both worked on by the same people
What idea?
Skill merges
What's that?
I don't know of anything in 4e called a skill merge.
2 hours ago, by Miniman
Hmmm. I wonder who published the skill merges first, PF or 4e.
Yes, I saw that. It doesn't tell me what the thing is.
What idea is lurking behind the term?
And why is it necessary to assume that one of the two biggest names in RPGs is the originator of whatever that idea is, rather than (as is usually the case with "new" things those franchises put out) it being something relatively common within less broadly known RPGs for many years before being popularized in the big names?
8:08 AM
Spot + Listen = Perception, and Hide + Move Silently = Stealth.
...Fudge was doing that in 1995.
It's got (somewhat verbose and scattered) advice on how using many narrowly-defined skills impacts the gameplay vs using a handful of broadly-defined ones, with example skill lists including one that has Move Quietly, Find Secret Passages, Lockpicking, and Pickpocketing, and another that just has Breaking and Entering, and Stealth.
(I'm looking at a 2005 PDF reproduction of the 1995 printed Fudge rules, so even the re-print handily pre-dates Pathfinder and 4e.)
8:44 AM
Back up another 10 ten years. King Arthur Pendragon:Chivalric Roleplaying in Arthur's Britain (1985) has an Awareness skill that covers all the five senses and the "sixth sense" of imminent danger. Interestingly, recognizing faces and remembering their names and how you know them and what their coat of arms is, got its own Recognize skill.
Yeah, I wasn't trying to present it as an original idea. Just wondered who did it to D&D first.
Yeah, I'm more responding to this.
9:02 AM
According to my GM (he's been in the game since 1e, and it's basically his life) apparently True20 came out with it first, that both Paizo and Hasbro adopted
True20 dates from 2005.
I submit that it's not uncommon for people whose "life" is D&D, to be unaware of RPG trends outside that sphere until they are picked up by D&D-adjacent spaces.
1 hour later…
10:23 AM
it's not even a trend though, it's just a question of how specific skills are in a given system
10:56 AM
The basic premise is a bit confusing, yes.
"Skill merge" is just a consolidation of the skill list
Games since the dawn of games have added/removed skills as made sense for their paradigm. None of these did that in a void, new games' developers didn't re-invent the skill concept every time—they assessed what came before them and re-assessed what skills their system should have, if any.
Whether you go more fine-grained on skills, or go with more broad strokes, depends on what your system cares about.
D&D has tons of skills and mechanics and features that relate to combat because having one single skill about combat would be a problem: it would be The God Skill you put all your points into. Going more fine-grained, dividing that up into many different attributes and skills and sub-mechanics, creates more meaningful choices with the core of the system.
On the other hand, D&D doesn't prioritise Being Friendly as a way to get things done, so it only has one skill for Being Friendly and that is fine and works well.
(And only 3-4 social skills depending on the edition, each given a fraction of the focus of anything physical.)
You divide up skills to the degree they don't make sense being grouped together OR to the degree you need to avoid a God Skill and create meaningful choices and allow players to differentiate themselves. (D&D players have to choose between "ranged" and "melee" and "grapple" and "magic" and "strength" and "dexterity" and "toughness" and so on, there is no one "Be Good At Combat" skill.)
You consolidate skills to the degree they aren't important but their existence is still necessary. (Bubblegumshoe players just put points into "Fight" to see how well they can throw down when it comes to it.)
Bubblegumshoe on the other hand has its focus on investigation. Most editions of D&D have a single Investigate skill because that's all it needs, because it's not super important. (Some don't have that at all.) However, if you had just one Investigate skill in Bubblegumshoe, that would be the God Skill. So instead Bubblegumshoe has tons of different skills for how you investigate, so that you can't be good at all the methods.
So to review:
- Bubblegumshoe is about investigation. It's not about wilderness survival at all; that gets no skills. It's barely about fighting, that gets one skill. It has some skills that might come up related to either, like first aid. It is about Investigation though, so it branches up the Investigation skills heavily.
- D&D is about combat. It isn't about Investigation much, but that's something people still may want to do sometimes, so that gets one skill, sometimes. It is about combat, though, and wilderness survival to a lesser extent. Since it is VERY about combat, combat gets TON
D&D in fact is so much about combat that it couldn't do combat with Skills alone and had to branch into tons more deeper mechanics than simply a score on a sheet, all specifically about combat.
Technically doesn't it only have one wilderness survival skill ?
@trogdor which one? (which game?)
11:12 AM
Like, nature, hide, and move silently exist. But they don't get you food
@doppelspooker D&D
Like isn't Survival the only one that actually specifically does that thing?
If you meant which edition as well, then 3.5, 4e , and 5th
I mean, I think you are right about it
You have a good point, if anything it just reinforces the point you are making
@trogdor i'm also considering stuff like Dungeoneering, applications of Arcana to understanding magical hijinks encountered in the wilderness, Knowledge (Geography), the Hunter and Druid skills around favoured terrains and other minor class features like those, Goodberry, etc.
It's certainly not hugely important and doesn't come up much. The system has the basic assumption that surviving in the wilderness is easy for the protagonists barring actual threats to their life made by enemies. It's something that's relevant enough a skill exists, as opposed to it being irrelevant: there is no skill for piloting a spaceship in either D&D or Bubblegumshoe, because nobody is expected to pilot spaceships in either game.
@doppelspooker cough spelljammer cough
It's also relevant enough it's worth having a few small additional things about if you want to zoom in a bit further.
@Carcer right, expansions that make it matter have these things, but I'm considering just default D&D here.
much like a Bubblegumshoe expansion set in interstellar space would also have a "pilot spaceships" skill.
but in the default setting it doesn't matter so it doesn't exist as a skill
11:45 AM
@doppelspooker fair enough there
12:08 PM
To me, it's sort of like "Which TV franchise invented having some different actors in the spinoff series?"
All of them. All of them did, because it's just sort of how the thing works.
12:27 PM
There was a first one to do it but that wasn't so much a novel invention so much as it just happened because that's how it works
@Joshua Hmm... no, you're leaving out "work with your GM," it seems to me.
Just as some GMs leave out " work with players "
It's a two way street all the way
Or possibly as many ways as people
@Joshua Actually there is an official way iirc.... let me look it up for you
@doppelspooker Though it does make me wonder about the first RPG to present (what we'd recognize today as) a "skill system." OD&D definitely didn't, Classic Traveller definitely did. In between...?
Arrgh, the "short rest exploit" question arises again, but I don't think it's a dupe.
12:40 PM
@Joshua Well ok scratch that, there is the official "Book of Vile Darkness" artifact book which states it could be the means to becoming a lich but doesn't actually contain the rules for that.
@Joshua I am very glad that it isn't spelled out; how to become a lich. IMO, that's best addressed table by table.
@nitsua60 it was there all along: skills as a mechanical concept are essentially just points toward a certain capacity of rolls. That's attributes.
Which in turn existed in wargames
@doppelspooker Empire of the Petal Throne had secondary skills baked into it, 1975. FWIW.
@doppelspooker Hmm... that doesn't really jibe with my understanding of wargames, though I'm going only on received wisdom and not direct experience there. And I think your point about attributes helps me put a finer point on what I mean by "what we'd recognize today as a skill system."
Bell! Gotta run to class. Induction today =)
(Mathematical, not physical.)
@doppelspooker Which war games are you referring to?
12:49 PM
@KorvinStarmast Did they not in general have concepts like different attack type bonuses?
@nitsua60 I'm partly working back here from Fate: approaches and skills in that game are both skill systems, and the primary source of bonuses to a roll. (Anything else modifying your roll is something extraordinary like a stunt or invoke.) A skill system could describe your innate physical and mental qualities, or could be your training or knowhow. (But given innate physical and mental qualities can be trained there's a blurry line there.)
@doppelspooker I played a lot of board games, it is very hard to generalize. Sniper, for example, had a lot of 'line of sight' stuff in it. For miniatures games, which genre? Micro armor? Ancients? Napoleonics? But yes, you would have some bonuses to the 1d6 or 2d6 die resolution role, depending.
We also had for Napoleonics/Civil War/Revolutionary War games (And Frederick the Great Era) morale checks and leadership bonuses.
I'm not well versed on war games, so I'm not referring to any particular one. I just know D&D inherited from both Chainmail (a wargame) and Braunstein (ran using a wargame) and the capacity to have various scores you add to rolls came from wargames rather than being a novel invention by D&D.
Certainly there were novel developed applications of it in D&D.
But the mechanical fundamentals of a skill system go way back before TTRPGs even existed and into its wargaming roots.
(probably further back than that even)
I'm trying to ease myself into wargames but I don't really know many of them. I used to play Memoir '44 with a friend, but I'd like something slightly deeper than that. Not the full-blown "spend hours to simulate one day" games experience though
The wargames I know of also take hundreds of dollars to play. :(
Many of my friends have played Twilight Struggle, while I'm more familiar with Labyrinth: War on Terror
1:03 PM
@doppelspooker a lot of wargames seperate damage to specific troop types by ammunition.. AP vs tanks, AP vs Infantry, AP vs lightly armored aircraft etc.
but most modern wargames just boil that down to one rile and some bonus
that depends on the type or the enemy.
@doppelspooker infintity gets you a well rounded, playable army for about 100... while Warhammer demands about 500 or more to even fulfil the basics.
@doppelspooker Yeah, the miniatures wargames hobby could get expensive. Though some of us use the Arafix miniatures (plastic) rather than lead figures to keep the cost down.
@Trish If you go into the details of Starcarft, the original, you will find that damage is modified by weapon and armor type. :) For example, firebats are more effective against softer targets and structures, less so than against armored targets like an Ultralisk.
@KorvinStarmast I am working on getting Mechs printable... in FDM
@KorvinStarmast There was an RPG that claimed to have the "most realistic combat system".... it was RIDICULOUS
@Trish i remember being very confused about that for a long time because it's so prohibitive, and spoke to a friend who played it: warhammer decided long ago that they would rather have 1,000 players that spend $1,000 each than 10,000 players who spend $100 each. I imagine that's partly because of dedication and investment: buying into warhammer gives you automatically a much more hardcore player base.
@Trish that's always a bad sign when a game is pitching that.
1:18 PM
yeah, Games Workshop has been pushing up prices well above inflation for many years
@doppelspooker it was on a ridiculous RPG list, together with other RPGs that are very well in the ridiculous area,
@KorvinStarmast it's not uncommon for modern videogames to have this kind of modelling because they've got the shortcut that a computer can do it and it doesn't need any player to work out by hand the details of a complicated interaction
Am I missing something in these comments? A few people are suggesting I'm being too RAW-happy by suggesting that the word eat necessitates a mouth. I'm just confused.
@Carcer they try to lure people to Wargaming with their shotgun-licensing (it's easy to license just ONE part of a faction for some mobile game or something) and then... they are not called the "Robbers of Nottingham" for nothing.
@DavidCoffron slimes. Check the slimes/goo. Do they need to eat? Do they have a mouth?
@DavidCoffron i don't imagine you're being RAW-happy, because I do not think even the RAW is trying to say that.
1:23 PM
@DavidCoffron because it is not strictly necessary for someone's mouth to be involved in feeding, thanks to medical intervention. They are considering it very unlikely that the important part of goodberry is that you taste it with your tongue and mash it with your teeth as opposed to "it goes into your stomach"
eating neither necessitates the possession or usage of a mouth, and English doesn't suppose that necessity, nor do the rules, so I think you're leaning on some pedantic exactness that doesn't really exist
I could reasonably say I eat through a stomach tube and that would not be an incorrect choice of words
@doppelspooker but that's not what eat is used for in common English at all.
In almost any instance eat refers to the usage of the mouth to chew and swallow food.
it is what it means for anyone who has to eat through a stomach tube
I like Labyrinth reasonably much but it has its flaws. It's a pretty difficult game to teach because despite its relatively simply rules, the bulk of the game is a bajillion of event cards that fundamentally change things.
Sep 20 at 15:07, by kviiri
Rule of thumb: If one has to use grammar analysis to prove a point regarding the rules of DnD, they've already lost the game.
@DavidCoffron i think you'll find that is not an exactness the English language would unquestionably support.
1:29 PM
but the thing is that even if your general definition of the word "eat" means using a mouth, to argue that is the only possible way to get the benefit of something that states you have to eat it seems extremely pedantic and counter to intuition
@doppelspooker at least one case of eating and tube-feeding being distinguished colloquially: quora.com/Can-you-still-eat-with-a-feeding-tube
@Carcer how is it pedantic? The spell specifically says eat
Finding a case where they're distinguished doesn't say anything about the exclusivity of the meaning of "eat" you're pursuing.
@DavidCoffron the pedantism here isn't about the spell but what you're asserting the word means in day-to-day language.
@doppelspooker I mean id quote all the leading dictionary definitions if you'd prefer
1:31 PM
@doppelspooker I think it's about the spell, too.
@DavidCoffron and i'd quote you all the other definitions behind the primary, and all the places eat gets used all kinds of other ways.
@doppelspooker I think it's more pedantic to state that "eating" in a different method is valid
@doppelspooker that's why I said leading. They are usually sorted by common usage
you're saying you'll quote leading to me, but you're surely aware it doesn't override all the other listed definitions or make them not exist.
see, this is why people think you're being excessively RAW - you're arguing about the definition of "eat" and "you have to eat it" rather than what makes sense
@doppelspooker but 5e is written for plain english. The plain english meaning of eat involves the mouth
1:32 PM
@doppelspooker he means leading dictionaries as in "reputable dictionaries" not the first definition of the entry
@DavidCoffron “the plain english definition” doesn't mean “exclusively only a legalistic reading of exclusively only the leading definition in any given dictionary”.
that's kinda contradictory in and of itself
@doppelspooker I'm specifically not. A legal interpretation would allow feeding tubes imo.
plain english uses non-leading definitions of words all the time, it's how the words are meant to be used. what you're proposing is nonfunctional.
@doppelspooker which is what I'm arguing. The "meant to be used" for eat is using the mouth
All other uses are just finding similar situations that eat can sort of be applied to
Well, anyway, I've said my piece. I've also removed those comments because the OP disagrees and isn't going to incorporate any change there.
1:37 PM
If I may re quote this ... 5e is written for plain english. The plain english meaning of eat involves the mouth ... if one is a human/humanoid. wink I think that there are some monsters that eat with other bits of their anatomy.
@KorvinStarmast I just don't understand the pedantism of "it doesn't say you have to use a mouth"
@doppelspooker I updated the urban dictionary reference.
but now i'm reading this chat and thinking I shouldn't have?
@DavidCoffron because people are reasonably considering that the important meaning is that you have to consume the berry somehow and ruling that you HAVE to use your mouth is unfairly specific and unfun in the circumstances
@Carcer I am now going to try and use the goodberry as a suppository in our next game.
@KorvinStarmast you'd have to get it way, way up there
1:40 PM
@NautArch I think you made the right call
@DavidCoffron Yeah. The DM is I think trying to get his players to be a bit more "out of the box" in their thinking. @Carcer No, they would not. There was some interesting work done in the 70's about what gets absorbed into the blood stream from that orifice, albeit this was having to do with people using that area to absorb heroin when their veins would not stand up to a needle ...
@KorvinStarmast I mean, if you just shoved a whole goodberry up there, I don't see that being very effective
@Carcer Part of our drug education class. (Nose sniffing likewise speeds up absorption, see cocaine and some other chemical mind altering substances ... )
@Carcer It's magic. Why won't it be absorbed? Why will it? Have they tried it yet?
I feel like you'd have to at least maybe make a paste
@Carcer I'd tend to agree if D&D physics = real world physics ... but does it? Magic can do a lot of different stuff, and the goodberry's berry is magical for 24 hours.
@Carcer Such as bake it, grind it into powder, and snort it. See what happens.
1:44 PM
@Carcer maybe I'm more perturbed by the fact that the answer didn't clarify that their option is a variant on the word eat. It makes it seem like that's a common usage of the goodberry spell
@DavidCoffron Holy Smokes! I just saw on amazon that First Fantasy Campaign book is going for 259 dollars, used. I need to dig deep into my boxed in the attic. If I still have that bugger, I am selling it. Freaking useless as a paid for product when I first purchased in 1977/1978.
@DavidCoffron I don't believe anyone is under the impression that goodberries are commonly snorted
But the concept of spells work as the spell description states suggests that this usage should be a creative use of spells and should be adjudicated as such.
1:57 PM
@Carcer In D&D 5e, why can't they be? I've snorted mucous from my nose into the back of my throat, and swallowed (inadvertently, when I am sick) so I can see a crushed up goodberry being snorted .. maybe. DM needs to rule on that. (Also, how is the PC drinking fluids? I learned in survival school that you'll die from lack of water before lack of food)
@KorvinStarmast This also feels very much like a plot hook. If it's not, then I'm not sure what the DM is doing besides bordering on Not Nice.
@NautArch Yeah, that too.
That quandary they are facing has a bit of an old school feel to it ...
If it is a plot hook, then they need to let it play out rather than trying to circumvent. But as a DM, i'd be much more likely to allow something reasonable (Antimagic field and snip, teleporting food, even nutrient enema, cut and regenerate).
@NautArch thank you for doing that. :)
@Carcer Goodberries is actually a malapropism. The original spell was Gooed Berries. It would produce a jelly from various harvested berries and you'd snort the jelly to hasten its restorative effects.
2:11 PM
@doppelspooker NP. It was a good answer, just needed some friendly cleanup.
@KorvinStarmast I am definitely not arguing that they cannot be snorted, I think that's a valid way to consume a goodberry and a reasonable approach to try when your alternative is literally starving to death
@Yuuki [suspicious squint]
@Carcer Still wish we had more info on why this happened.
@NautArch the circumstances are certainly interesting
@Carcer I just keep hearingin my head the DM thinking to themselves, for whatever not nice reason, "Just. Shut. Up."
2:22 PM
I'm kinda imagining it's one of three things:
- The DM wants the Tortle to die. I hope it's not this one.
- The DM is just setting them a challenge where he's not 100% sure how they will/should solve it, because this is a good kind of challenge to set, but I am not sure *this* challenge was a good challenge to set.
- This is just a thing where *some* character was probably going to die, and the Tortle was unlucky.
@KorvinStarmast You're welcome, though that's probably more on the answer's author, lol....
@Yuuki Norm Crosby strikes again; I like your version of the spell origin.
@KorvinStarmast I do not think you'll like this GM's response =\
@KorvinStarmast speaking of goodberry suppository...you should probably remove that comment under the question. It's an answer :)
2:54 PM
@NautArch I did already. @nitsua60 In my brother's game, I have a Life cleric who took magic initiate: goodberry, guidance, shillelagh. She will be offering the barbarian a suppository the next time he demands a goodberry. snicker (We have all known each other for years, this is the group I first played D&D with in the 70's).
3 hours later…
5:44 PM
Answering the 2 AC value question gave me some cool ideas for new monsters.
6:14 PM
@GreySage Such as?
I don't know about @GreySage, but one idea that popped into my mind is that if the attacker rolls above a certain threshold but still below the monster's AC, the monster's "armor" takes damage and eventually fails, lowering its AC.
@doppelspooker Or the DM is still wondering why they can't think of the obvious solution he has previously thought of.
Like, is there a spell to remove cursed items in D&D 5e?
Greater Restoration.
> You imbue a creature you touch with positive energy to undo a debilitating effect. You can reduce the target's Exhaustion level by one, or end one of the following effects on the target.
> • One curse, including the target's Attunement to a cursed magic item
5th level spell though.
@DavidCoffron It is pedantic exactly because you're pointing at what the spell says. They wrote eat. They could have written ingest. I guess nobody at WotC imagined the "can't open my mouth" scenario and therefore nobody cared to be more specific than that. (By the way, everything RAW is doomed to be pedantic).
6:41 PM
Hey, what we talking about
I think they might still be on snorting a Goodberry?
Something like that was a topic of discussion for a while - whether snorting it would provide the effects
I mean...
Its not really eating it is it?
I guess it was more along the lines of "alternative ways to consume a goodberry"
6:44 PM
I say you have to eat it
but I don't really know
Like if you took a Goodberry, ground it up into a powder, and huffed it, does that give you the magical effects? What about as a suppository? Blended into a juice and then injected directly into the bloodstream?
I kinda get the bloodstream
I would argue that snorting a Goodberry does nothing for you, because the benefits of a Goodberry are from digesting it, not from injecting it directly into your bloodstream.
Olive Oil is pretty good for you, but see how long you survive outside the ICU if you snort a whole bunch of it into your lungs.
I think where everyone left was roughly that it's a matter of opinion; if it causes interesting consequences in your game/world then it's good, if it's good flavor then it's good, if it's "just because" then that's a pain
6:46 PM
To me, getting it in your stomach where it magically fills it is good enough, but again, D&D is only as good as the DM says (or the players convince them)
I'm also not sure you'r considering 'eating' if someone force feeds you a goodberry when you're unconscious.
@Xirema You can snort things and then swallow them.
I'd be for it if it were e.g. an interesting way Bob the Wizard casts his spells (all of them are either injections or vials) or a decent way to get around someone being bound and gagged and needing sustenance
Though I usually have silly enough games that grinding and huffing a goodberry would be the only way my players would ever consume one if they learned they could
Good news on my problems with alignment. The player himself thought about it and concluded that he wants to play a CG character and doing chaotic things without a... good cause is not how he marks being CG.
(CG stands for Computer Graphics, obviously. That's an alignment in my games U_U)
@Zachiel Makes sense to me.
7:32 PM
Today's sesh of CoS was marked with some surprisingly easy moments considering we're supposedly in the final dungeon. Still a bit hard on my memory, this massive castle.
My monk is really shining here, tho. I'm killing things and hardly breaking a sweat.
@kviiri your monk? I thought you were DMing?
7:53 PM
My Paladin got a Wand of Sending. What's something really cheesy I can do with that?
@Xirema What edition?
@NautArch 5e.
@Xirema er...what is the wand of sending? that's not a 5e item, i don't think.
@NautArch It lets me use the spell Sending 1d3 times per day.
@NautArch Uncommon/Rare wand template applied to the Sending spell.
@Xirema Hmm, not sure how useful that is for cheese. Also remember the word limitation of 25.
8:00 PM
@NautArch Yeah, that's my instinct. I guess I can harangue my war buddy 3 times a day instead of having to send him letters. =P
just noticed this comment. 13 HP at level 3...that's not going to go well.
@Xirema Aggressively Send to celebrities and politicians.
(Also, I now have 3 separate factions that may or may not want me dead, so I guess I have a "someone gather the materials for a Raise Dead/Resurrection spell, plz" quest prompt. XD)
@Xirema Or just spam those faction leaders :P
Yeah; instant communication isn't usually super cheese-able. It can be if you really, really try, but the fact that Sending has caller-ID if they know you makes it less cheesy
8:05 PM
@Delioth Unless you are playing the fantasy stock market, in which case instant communication becomes highly valuable.
Does Forgotten Realms Sending violate Special Relativity?
If so: hello Time Travel!
@GreySage 3/day severely limits your profits though, and it still works at the speed of "people"
@Xirema Issue #17: You're assuming Relativity holds in fantasy settings
@Delioth It's a lot faster than "hopping on a cart and traveling for 4 weeks"
@Delioth I feel like assuming it doesn't hold requires a lot more suspension of disbelief.
@Xirema All the suspension of disbelief you need is the idea that it doesn't matter whether any relativity holds in the world. I mean, in magical worlds, basic principles like Conservation of momentum and conservation of mass/energy are frequently broken
To say nothing of more advanced principles.
8:47 PM
@NautArch No, this CoS is me as a player
@Delioth It would be useful for betting fraud assuming the 1) world was global enough to have markets for betting on distant events and 2) the existence of instant comms wasn't known
9:14 PM
One of the better youtubes I have seen in a while.
9:25 PM
@KorvinStarmast Oh god, "Batman, far more interesting than Superman".
I'm just going to say that poorly-written Batman is far worse than poorly-written Superman.
And well-written Superman is far better than well-written Batman.
9:43 PM
@Yuuki His summary of easy to make mistakes is, IMO, spot on. I will not get into Batman/Superman stuff ... I grew up with them both, and found a different appeal in each one.
Q: Finding real world historic examples of cultures/organizations/tribes to represent Orcs

JamesI plan to make this a series of questions to avoid being overly broad. Each question will address a particular fantasy species ("race" in RPG terms). The traits will be based on the content included in this question, though the traits can also be found in this question, which lists all of the r...

hooooooooo boy
puts some popcorn in the microwave
@Yuuki That just feels like a really... odd question to ask.
@Yuuki unpacks the VtC...
because THAT is not a well formed question, even for WB
@Yuuki "Ummmm....... Don't? Please?"
Like, it's only marginally less sketchy if you're worldbuilding only for you and a group of friends.
And even then, like....
OP seems to describe some kind of modern orc and not the "born evil, soulless enemy" orc trope.
9:51 PM
@Trish And it's being asked by a moderator, of all people
@GreySage still a bad question
Taking Orcs—which already have some really uncomfortable real-world inspirations and stereotypes—and then trying to pack in additional real world inspirations and stereotypes is going to result in some kind of Racist Frankenstein's Monster. The needle you're trying to thread is so fornicating small.
@Yuuki Yeah, but they're still indulging the "ME CRUSH PUNY SKULL" tropes normally associated with Orcs. putting that in a quasi-modern setting doesn't really alleviate that issue.
> I plan to make this a series of questions to avoid being overly broad. Each question will address a particular fantasy species ("race" in RPG terms).
Oh boy, there's more!
I need to go to Costco to buy some more popcorn...
@NautArch I wrote an answer to that based on how IRL it is used effectively
@GreySage I'm less surprised by that. My experience with the moderators here has been pretty good, but depending on which SE site you go to, the moderators can be really bad. Lots of affluent tech-bros with zero social awareness.
9:58 PM
The "Vikings as Orcs on Boats" was I thought a neat answer
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