TRPG General Chat

doppelgreener

16:02

Lil dragons (@trogdor)

godskook

@doppelgreener Well, for instance, having the Bite be that the character must take "an action" to reload Big Bertha, or have "limited ammo" would be more useful balancing points for this, wouldn't they?

@nitsua60, is a Wizard of Level X also a CR of X in 5e?

doppelgreener

@godskook fate isn't terribly interested in bookkeeping, so we could potentially do that but "bite" is more about dramatic things happening to the character -- being without their gun being a primary thing.

Adam

@godskook Not necessarily. For example a mage is a 9th level spellcaster but is only CR 6. And the only potenially CR changing thing it looks to be missing compared to an evocation wizard is the potent cantrip feature

Delioth

Alternately, you can assume that you're reloading as you need (if you have viable storage for that many bullets). This opens the door for advantages to be created (I pin her down so she can't reload- "Create an Advantage"=>"We need more bullets"), or for "out of ammo" to be a cost for a failed attack

Trish

@doppelgreener regarding "RTBTM" questions... I see one more type: Type 1 is "I am Lazy" Type 2 is "I don't know the rule exists". What you didn't catch is Type 3 is "I found the rule, I don't understand the script" - which is pretty much at the edge to no more beiong RTBTM somehow, but still somewhere in the area...

doppelgreener

16:07

@Trish oh yeah, i saw that comment of yours. i like that.

kviiri

@godskook I'm not sure how it goes in earlier editions, but in 5e the CR is roughly a measure of what level party of four will find a single monster of the kind to be an appropriate challenge. A very rough measure.

Since a CR X monster is likely to be way tougher than a level X PC.

Delioth

@kviiri I can vouch that that's how it "should be" in Pathfinder as well, though you can directly correlate CR to NPC level in Pathfinder (an NPC is a CR equal to their level-1 if they use PC classes, or CR=Level if they also have PC wealth)

kviiri

It's not a very useful measure in my opinion, though, because I almost never run single monster encounters...

godskook

@kviiri 3.5 uses the same "basic" CR, but concluded that level X NPCs are far more equivalent to CR X than 5e apparently does.

Trish

@kviiri I don't really understand the 5E hype (and honestly don't like it especially due to the many very low quality questions on it)... I don't even have the rules beyond the SRD and the Unearthed arcana... didn't stop me from answering a few 5E questions using the SRD and those only...

Delioth

16:11

My guess is 5e finally recognizes the immense power of action economy. 1 Level 9 wizard only gets one action and thus has trouble competing with several people. 4 level 9 wizards can actually compete with a party of 4, and are thus a decent challenge at level 9-10

godskook

@Trish A large subset of 5e questions aren't 5e questions at all, but general gaming advice in the 3.5/5e/PF "space" that anyone could answer who could draw from any of those games. At least, based on all the 5e answers I've given.

Adam

@Trish D&D is the iconic example of the entire TTRPG hobby. 5e is the newest edition of the game. The two combined mean that a lot of new players flock to it. And new players ask questions. They also don't know where to look to get answers. So they turn to the internet and end up here.

Trish

@godskook true...

Delioth

@Trish It's hyped because it's simple enough to understand and "just play" most of the time, which is great for newcomers. It's also better advertised, and has several celebrity mascots to help combat the stigma of RPG playing. On top of that, it has the ancient brand recognition of D&D and Wizards of the Coast (and again, the massive budget to advertise it). Smaller games like FATE or Paranoia don't have that kind of marketing or brand recognition

godskook

I find that 5e is what Pathfinder PROMISED to be, originally: a game that balanced 3.5, without feeling like an utterly new game.

And unless you like tons of rules, I think they succeeded handily.

doppelgreener

16:16

@Adam a good word for that is "flagship" :)

Adam

@doppelgreener Indeed, it is. Shame that the word escaped me at the time :)

kviiri

@Trish After a few dozen sessions with 5e, I find myself preferring 4e. But I know 4e is a rather disliked edition in general...

Delioth

@godskook I don't know... 5e feels like an utterly new game to me. Overhauled action economy, static bonus to add to a whole host of things that automagically scales, Feat or Ability increase, few flat bonuses (only advantage/disadvantage)

kviiri

I still play a lot of 5e because of sunken costs I guess :P

Trish

What I dislike moyt abot 5E is its sometimes lazy approach "GM determine everything" - which was something that stopped me from ever stating a GURPS game.

@kviiri say that to someone who prefers SR4 to 5.

kviiri

16:20

@Trish Huh... are you me? I find myself saying that here everyday :P

Or on IRC.

Or to my boss at work.

Adam

@kviiri You know, based on my limited experience, it seems like it's becoming more trendy to like 4e

doppelgreener

@kviiri it's popoularly hated upon, but there's a great many people who also tried it and actually like it. @BESW and @trogdor and I are among those people. :D

kviiri

@Adam Same here! Although what I'd really like to try is 13th Age, which is apparently a sort of "4e done right".

Trish

@Adam WoTC culled its 4E content, that alone makes it loveable for collectors value, doesn't it?

godskook

@Delioth It feels different like a new Block of MtG feels different, but no moreso than that, to me. Yes, there's new rules, but the old understandings of the rules are largely what inform the new rules at all, so they're very familiar feeling.

doppelgreener

16:22

@Trish that was just frustrating the way they disowned the game & destroyed its content :(

Adam

@Trish I suppose so, though you can get PDFs of some of the material on the DMs guild

Trish

@doppelgreener you know, that one question that I dug through all of the WoTC site includeing the "what happened to D&D4" pages only to unearth that just a fraction of the stuff (Errata) had been archived publicy and that the BEST one can hope for is an aware sysadmin having a backup somewhere on a hidden server?!

kviiri

:(

godskook

@doppelgreener Did they not give warning to this?

kviiri

Book burnings...

Trish

16:27

Nope, the stuff seems to have disappeared from the internet even before I stopped regarding D&D as "that crazy game that uses classes and levels" as I was used to pretty much point-buy games like SR (since 2!) and DSA 4...

GreySage

@kviiri Book burnings actually happen pretty often. There is only so much space in each library, and new books never stop coming out

kviiri

I have a lot of digital copies of DnD 4e material, might have to backup those if they're about to become rarities.

Trish

@GreySage my local library sells those books per weight (1 kg Books for 2 € or something) or 1€/piece

Edition wars are actually horrible. When SR4 came out, in Germany the opposition of old SR3 players was THAT big, that the publisher had to drag around the whole SR3 community to not loose them... then they dropped license, the quality of SR4 got better spontanously with the new publisher and... seemingly the SR3 community was converted to a huge deal to play SR4. Now, SR5 has some slightly easier stance, but people still prefer SR4 in several areas, even if SR5 wins over slowly.

for The Dark eye it is even worse: Tehy managed to phase out DSA 3 somehow, but DSA 4.1 refuses to die so vehemently, that DSA 5 became a flopp. Ok, it doesn'T help that half the writers went away and started on "Splittermond" and went through production much faster and offer the rules for free...

nitsua60

@godskook I would argue, from my experience guiding new players through learning 5e, that reading the entire manual is not sufficient. The manual's badly-enough laid out and explained that other knowledge of the system is needed to understand the manual, even on a full read. (But others' experience--including the one you had with 3.5 SRD--may differ.)

Trish

16:43

@nitsua60 reminds me of Sengoku: the first 60% of the book are nicely researched and presented background... then comes the system and you are dumbstruck :/ a pity.

nitsua60

@kviiri I've really only heard good things about 4e from people who treated it as what it professed to be: an edition of D&D based on making tactical play work.

godskook

@nitsua60 All the worst criticisms of 4e I ever heard are best summarized as thus: Its not D&D at all, its a combat engine "RPG" for people used to MMOs.

nitsua60

Which, I suppose, are perfectly true judgments. It just seems strange to criticize a game for being exactly what it set out to achieve. It may be a good criticism of WotC, that they released a really good sword-and-sorcery tactics & combat game and called it D&D, however?

Trish

Well, I did check out only one part of 4E... Leveling as I brike down that one question about "How long does a party need to get to lvl 10"...

godskook

@nitsua60 Well, while I can't speak to the veracity of the claim, my understanding is that there's a certain simulationist root in how older editions(3.5 for sure) generated their rules that 4e just threw out a window, offending the "fluff is all that matters" crowd to no end on the Playground.

Trish

16:50

@godskook you know what that reminds me of? Civ V. Civ became a bloated mess over its 5 or 6 itterations till Civ 4 (including civ for networks and that one obscure other). Then... they filed it down to the core for V and earned a huge outcry... till people actually started playing it, and found it quite ok (if they managed to run it stable, because that was the other problem: massive stability issiues)

(and I so loved flipping cities with culture in Civ IV!)

Yuuki

Well, also the expansions shored up some of more shoddy mechanics.

I'm still waiting for a BNW-style xpac for Civ VI.

Trish

Don't get me wrong, at some point I will get Civ VI too... but it is a bit expensive for my liking...

Though I LOVED the very old Colonialization. Not the IV remake...

Yuuki

I'd also like them to introduce some mechanic that limits the effectiveness of mass expansion.

Going wide is way too powerful right now.

godskook

@Trish Yes and no. As described, the complaint was more akin to....pretending that the Red Alert franchise was somehow part of the Tiberium franchise, if you're familiar with C&C games.

Trish

RA was meant to be a whacky offshoot that reflected what would happen if Tiberium would be found in the real world in the 80s, not a part of the Tiberium... both were C&C though!

godskook

16:56

@Trish Except ore/gems of RA are not in anyway Tiberium, which is a quintessential part of the Tiberium plotline. (I.e., C&C handled that game right)

Trish

true... but the code actually was the same XD

godskook

@Trish Sure, but if C&C had released RA, unchanged, under the title "Tiberium: Origins", there would've been HELL to pay.

Trish

maybe

but C&C lived of the Whacky backstory

kviiri

@nitsua60 I have only one negative thing to say when taken that way: too much HP!

(And even that was fixed eventually)

godskook

Which, to bring us back to "topic", was what I think people objected to with 4e, that they pretended there was far more continuity to 4e from 3.5 than was actually there.

Trish

16:59

yea, it was like a relaunch... That's why PF uses the slogan "3.5 lives"

to me, 5E as some vibe of... a mix of AD&D 2 and D&D 3 bundled with "GM make it happen, here you have some broken toys"

godskook

And while Pathfinder has its flaws, it is FIRMLY rooted in being an extension of the 3.5 paradigm.

Trish

@godskook true, I admit PF has its flaws (starting with being a level system that proposes classes, which can be seen as a major flaw when you want gradual, experienced based char development and not... level-jumps)

Adam

@Trish I don't think that the designers purposefully gave out "broken toys". They give people an outline with some of the implementation left out and a foot note saying "Your game is your game. Do whatever you think is fun. The game isn't what's in these books, it's what happens at the table."

Trish

@Adam But apparently, half the times those tools given to make the toys don't work, or half the questions on 5E wouldn't be about balancing and basic things...

doppelgreener

@godskook nope, just launched a new site design and all the 4e content disappeared

kviiri

17:05

Not all GMs know what the idea of fun is supposed to be around their table, or how to best achieve it.

godskook

@doppelgreener I can see how that sucks for people who liked 4e.

kviiri

Like, my first GM was a fairly novice player and master and had most of his knowledge from reading funny DnD stories online. That slants one's POV :P

Adam

@Trish What @kviiri said. I agree that they don't give you a whole lot of guidance on how they should make rules, but that's because what's fun at your table is so subjective that they can't really give out any guidance. Do you have any specific examples though of "balancing and basic things" issues that are the fault of broken material in the book?

Trish

@kviiri losing is FUN! dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Losing

kviiri

@Adam But what you can do is say "this game is meant to be fun if you play it like this".

godskook

17:09

@Adam Which is SO not helpful without good and robust guidelines for what the designers think is "best".

Adam

@kviiri And that has the very dangerous prospect of implying that if you don't play it exactly that way, it won't be fun.

kviiri

And conversely, things like "this game is not meant for min-maxing, please don't powergame".

Trish

@Adam There was one paragraph that was something like "Balancing monsters is hard and the GM has to do it" but there wasn't any hint how to balance anywhere near that.

kviiri

@Adam Why is that dangerous? If you don't like the proposed gamestyle, play something else.

It's not like there is, or should be, a single system to rule them all.

I'll get back to you in an hour or two, going to go geocaching

Trish

@Adam But how do you expect a GM to balance things if you don't give the GM scales to check their stuff against but their players?

godskook

17:11

Its like....cooking. I can cook food. I can cook all my own food. But when I buy a book for cooking food, I don't want it to tell me "do what you think is best" because either I already know how to do that or not, and either way, telling me to do it isn't helpful beyond affirmation(why would I buy a book for that :P). I want the cookbook to tell me what it thinks is the best way to do something, at least roughly. At least give me guidelines to work with, maybe with....

good guidelines on how to variate from there.

Adam

@Trish Experience. Talking with friends, trying stuff out, reading the exp thresholds in the materials. Telling them that you are new to the game and so don't get too attached to your characters, and then accidentally kill them.

@godskook I fail to see how 5e doesn't do that

Trish

Telling "balance stuff" and not telling how is... like the cookbook. Or an arms race: if the GM makes a monster too weak, he will make the next stronger. If the players think it is too powerful, they will find a way to become stronger and then overcome it, which again makes the GM make more powerful stuff... It is a downwards spiral into Powergaming.

BanjoFox

did I miss anything good?

godskook

@Adam In all the places its less specific than 3.5 :P

Adam

@BanjoFox 5e bashing mostly

NautArch

17:14

A lot of the 5e GM-required decisions are more about common sense and reacting to situations and less about rules mechanics (i think?)

BanjoFox

@Adam - so nothing good then ;)

Trish

@Adam 5E is meant to be for newbs, so they have no experience.

Adam

@godskook I haven't played 3.5. That doesn't mean anything to me. You need to be more specific

godskook

@Adam I'm ok with 5e. Its probably my favorite of PF/5e/4e

Trish

You know why Spelljammer has wacky stuff like space hamsters?! Someone made the gnome Spelljammer and had these huge wheels at the sides intended to be like a steam river ship. The art director asked "what are those, hamster wheels?" and he just said "Nice idea! we need giant space hamsters!"

Adam

17:17

@Trish They can build it up. They can ask their friends. They can just jump right in. They can come to the internet and ask questions.

nitsua60

@Trish Oh, Spelljammer. I recently found a spiral-notebook of old deck-plans... =)

@doppelgreener btw that ArtofCode script works beautifully! (Love how subtle it is, putting the barest necessary information right where it makes sense.)

godskook

Well, backing up a second, you *asserted* the example you're asking me to give "They give people an outline with some of the implementation left out and a foot note saying 'Your game is your game. Do whatever you think is fun'."

So....I'm not sure why you're asking me to give an example of something you've already asserted to be true.

Adam

@godskook perhaps I mis-spoke in what I was trying to get across. I meant something very similar to what @NautArch gets across. That the system for everything is there, but in many cases the connective tissue is left sparse, but the system is there in place. So in your cookbook example, I believe that they do actually tell you how to cook said meal, and then say "but if you want to change it up, do it".

I'm looking for an example of an area where they gave they actually gave people a concept and immediately dropped it with "The DM will figure this out" or where the system they give you is broken and leaves it up to the DM to fix it.

godskook

@Adam Right, but I had to backup to realize that I was mostly responding to your own assertion, rather than anything otherwise concrete. With the new corrections, it kinda kills this whole tangent, for 5e.

Delioth

@Trish But what happens when we miniaturize a giant space hamster and send one to the Sword Coast?

Adam

17:27

@godskook Then we shall consider it dead and move on! :)

Trish

@Delioth uhm... Invasion of the Space Hamster?!

Delioth

@Trish (Reference - Minsc from Baldur's Gate had a miniature giant space hamster compatriot... and one too many hits to the head)

doppelgreener

@nitsua60 good! I like it too.

NautArch

18:11

@Adam No, we must remain intransigent in our positions and continue to argue for the sake argument. What kind of internet is this? I'm ashamed.

B. S. Morganstein

@godskook I definitely feel like I've seen your answer here somewhere else rpg.stackexchange.com/a/104630/15689

Adam

@NautArch You taught me a new word today! Thanks! :D

NautArch

@Adam I love that word :)

The Oracle

18:33

0

Q: Can a question about what makes a good session 0 be made on-topic?

Over the past month I've noticed many questions - particularly in problem-players and gm-techniques - which are answered by suggesting that the GM have a session 0 (a pregame session where the ground rules of the campaign are laid out). I feel that a community Q/A detailing resources, strategies...

nitsua60

18:53

@Adam contests? They explicitly call out grapple and shove in the combat section, but it's clearly meant to just be a template/bit of guidance for calling for your own contests.

Adam

@nitsua60 yes, but the contest system itself isn't really broken. And they do give you examples of how it can be used: shoving, grappling, and hiding. The fact that they leave some room for you to come up with other checks makes sense at that point I think, rather than trying to come up with an exhaustive list of potential contest scenarios

nitsua60

(Sorry--I thought that was an example that hit the first half of your sentence: "looking for an example of an area where they gave they actually gave people a concept and immediately dropped it with 'The DM will figure this out'.")

NautArch

I dn't want to VTC this question but it feels widely opinion-based for idea generation?

godskook

@B.S.Morganstein Yeah....the questions are essentially asking the "same thing" in that they deserve basically the same answer. I'm adding some customizations to this answer because this case doesn't have some presumptions the other question had(this guy wants to accomadate, the other DM wanted to get player conformity).

B. S. Morganstein

@godskook Cool, just wanted to make sure I'm not going crazy. I read it and immediately thought, "I've definitely read this, like yesterday"

@NautArch I may be biased since I've got the only answer right now, but I think its sufficiently precise to be answered. they're looking for suggestions on how to make combat more dynamic, using "cinematic" as a criteria. So I think its sufficiently objective in that DMs who have used cinematic effects before can provide some objective insight based on their experiences

nitsua60

19:01

that's ^^ where I am on it, too. But it's a high-degree-of-difficulty question. (IME in those cases we get both crappy and amazing answers. No "amazing" answer to "how many foo can I baz as a reaction?")

NautArch

@B.S.Morganstein suggestions on how to make combat more dynamic seems overly opinion-based. But if it's not, i'll throw my .02 in. I like the question, I think it' shelpful, but it just doesn't seem to meet stack criteria because it's just "here's some ideas"

B. S. Morganstein

@nitsua60 Is it being an extremely difficult question sufficient to warrant it being closed as POB or too broad?

@NautArch I can appreciate that, maybe the OP could make some edits to better clarify what they are looking for? While I don't think it is too opinion based, I can understand your position

Adam

@NautArch General Suggestions on dynamic combat is op-based, I agree, but considering that they have a specific reference in mind with the Duel on Cloud City, I believe that scopes in "dynamic" enough to be answerable

nitsua60

@B.S.Morganstein Not alone, I don't think so. But this may be one of those questions we learn from, too. If a few "meh" answers and a couple of really outstanding ones come in, p'raps it's okay. If it turns into a debacle, we'll know (retrospectively) a little more about the "too broad" line.

B. S. Morganstein

@nitsua60 Interesting. Then I look forward to seeing how it turns out :P

nitsua60

19:05

@Adam (I'm just sad they picked those two and didn't mention Westley vs. Inigo.)

B. S. Morganstein

And I agree with @Adam. When I read it, I saw 'cinematic" as the criteria, and responded in kind (music in your campaigns btw is awesome if you haven't tried it out already)

godskook

@B.S.Morganstein My edits are in.

NautArch

@B.S.Morganstein Added my thoughts. Let the downvotes commence @BanjoFox

nitsua60

This question seems (to me) to have a pretty well-scoped goal: "cinematic battles that move a lot, like Duel on Theed or Duel on Cloud City." That said, in order to prevent this becoming a litany of "my $0.02" please remember to Back Up! your answers. — nitsua60 ♦ 32 secs ago

^^ Look okay?

NautArch

@nitsua60 it does...and makes me want to delete my answer. While I cite the problem and solutions, I don't really have gameplay to back it up.

Yuuki

19:11

@nitsua60 The issue with the Duel on Theed is that there's way too much cutting between three separate battles.

Tangent, but still.

Actually, four.

nitsua60

@Yuuki That's the issue with the Duel on Theed? (I thought the problem with that one was the movie that contained it.)

Yuuki

@nitsua60 I mean, looking at that particular part in isolation.

nitsua60

=)

Yuuki

1) Jinn & Kenobi vs. Maul 2) Padme infiltrating the palace 3) Gungans fighting the droid army and 4) Anakin and the space battle.

Juggling all four well is nearly impossible for even the best directors, let alone a Lucas that hasn't directed in decades.

Although, I guess that's more of an editing thing than a directing thing.

nitsua60

@Yuuki What did you think of how [insert name here] handled the three "zoom-levels" of conflict at the end of Rogue One?

BanjoFox

19:14

@NautArch -- woo?

which question are we talking about?

NautArch

@BanjoFox cinematic combat movement

Yuuki

@nitsua60 I mean, it was better-ish if only because the three parts were more interconnected so the audience could follow the flow better. Empire brings up the shield on Scarif so the ground troops are cut off. Consequently without reinforcements, we see the Rebel group troops getting wrecked.

About the only parts that had connectivity in The Battle of Theed was Anakin blowing the droid central ship causing the droid army to deactivate.

But that's a win condition and occurs at the end.

Baskakov_Dmitriy

Cheesers do not play missions with minimized effort for the sake of always playing missions that way. They just farm high-level equipment and other valuables this way to bypass boring grinding needed to access those harder grinding missions normally (by slowly growing in power). When I want to play normally, I can even remove some powerful parts of my build to make things intentionally harder. As for me, the most fun play are low-level endless missions on Earth without any mods (or with very few of them), like Excavation. My favorite one..

nitsua60

@Yuuki IIRC there were good shots in each location where you saw visual elements of the other conflicts in the background. Up on the antenna array you saw the ground-battle in the background. In the ground-battle you could see amassed starships and the shield up above. &c. (But I haven't seen it but once, in the theater.)

Yuuki

Also, with the shield up, Jyn couldn't broadcast the plans to the Rebel fleet.

So the ground troops had to disable the shields.

@nitsua60 Yeah, that was another part of it.

I mean, I'm not going to say Rogue One was the best Star Wars movie ever, but Edwards handled the disparate parts of the climax much better than Lucas did.

kviiri

19:20

I wish I could partake in this discussion, but I still haven't seen even the original Star Trek IV: The Phantom Menace.

/me ducks for cover

BanjoFox

@NautArch - I rather like your answer actually

Yuuki

Eh, that's not the worse thing you could've said. Now if you managed to combine Star Trek, Star Wars, and Stargate on the other hand...

nitsua60

@kviiri (time to test out mod-kick tools...)

B. S. Morganstein

@nitsua60 I've read that link you put in your comment. Think my answer is sufficiently "good subjective"?

nitsua60

@B.S.Morganstein I dunno--gotta run. Sorry!

Hasta manana!

kviiri

19:23

@Yuuki I literally know nothing about Stargate apart from that MacGyver player Spong the Vulgan, who are sort of Space Judaist Elves.

B. S. Morganstein

@nitsua60 All good, let the community decide I guess

kviiri

Joking aside, I crashed my SO's student org's Star Trek movie night. There apparently is some meme that the odd-numbered films are way better than the even ones. Or vice versa.

And we binge watched Star Wars from I to VI during the course of a few particularly pointless nights at the campus. I fell asleep a few times on each, though :P

B. S. Morganstein

@kviiri I think its even > odd, since wrath of Khan was the second (IIRC)

kviiri

@B.S.Morganstein Rotten Tomatoes agrees, it seems.

Yuuki

Hmm... is Into Darkness better than 2009?

My issue with Into Darkness was that there was occasions where there was strong emphasis on meta-references that didn't really make sense in the continuity of the film.

> My name... is KHAN.
> *super long dramatic pause with crescendoing music*

> Kirk: ... so?

NautArch

19:38

@BanjoFox It's got me thinking about my next encounter building :)

BanjoFox

@NautArch :D

NautArch

@BanjoFox because we're really mostly a combat group, and our alt campaign changes DMs so storylines aren't as important, creating interesting combat is a must. And this is new!

BanjoFox

yeah haha

BESW

@doppelgreener There are some Fate iterations that use conditions, where "out of ammo" is a condition.

In those games you could have a stunt with a cost that makes it harder to remove that condition, perhaps.

But that's a bit extra-fiddly for the level of question that was asked.

kviiri

19:56

I wonder if there's some really minimal, setting-agnostic edition of PbtA.

Purely out of academic interest - I prefer to play a game designed for the appropriate setting whenever possible.

BESW

@kviiri Yes, somebody made that. [rummages]

31

A: Is there a generic rulebook for Powered by Apocalypse?

There is no generic edition of Apocalypse World — that is, an edition with the setting stripped out and “just” the rules. This is for the simple reason that the rules effectively are the setting, so there's no way to have “just” the rules. All the other Powered by the Apocalypse games were creat...

kviiri

If I were to make a really minimalistic but ready-to-play version, I'd probably have something like four ability scores (Strong, Savvy, Swift and Social), have one generic "act under fire" for each, plus history for help/hinder.

@BESW Let's see that...

BESW

It's not generic as such but it's the closest you'll get in that it's a way to play PbtA in whatever setting you want.

kviiri

I see what you mean. It's more like a design template, but really, a part of PbtA games' magic is that the moves match tropes of the genre.

So it's impossible to have one set of moves/stats/anything that fit all of them.

Or well, I guess just "act under fire" + help would work, but nowhere near as well!

BESW

Yeah, its strength lies in that it allows participants (both players and GM) to do anything that fits into the chosen story type, but pushes back hard against anything which doesn't fit.

Once you've taken that away, I have to ask why you're using the system.

kviiri

20:13

Yeah, it was purely for academic interest.

But it could be a nice starting point for creating hacks - but Simple World does that better I guess.

godskook

@BESW from a naive perspective, I understand the desire to want a more generic version of the game's system that helps enable people to develop custom genre-instances of the system, similar to the various instances already established, but different in some key way that's customized for them.

BESW

@godskook That's Simple World, then.

There's a difference between an iteration that's made to be played in any setting (AWE doesn't do that well without losing its defining qualities), and an iteration that's made to be customised for any setting (Simple World).

BanjoFox

BEEPBEEPIMASHEEP!

Mike Q

I thought you were a fox, not a sheep.

BESW

20:32

I'm given to understand that foxes do not go "beep."

kviiri

I saw two foxes a few says

GreySage

@BESW They make a terrifying yowling sound

kviiri

a few days ago*, but both were silent.

A local news channel asks the members of the vulpine community about their feelings on various political issues in their new hit segment: Fox Populi.

The Oracle

-2

Q: "What is a slam attack?" question - should it be closed?

What is a slam attack? - the question is about "Slam" attack name, particularly the Doppelganger's attack: Slam. Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 7 (1d6 + 4) bludgeoning damage. The OP asks: "What, descriptively, does an attack of this kind entail?" I see sever...

discussion specific-question

godskook

@BESW That came out while I was playing in a Garou game on a sept devoted to either Coyote or Fox, I forget.

trogdor

20:43

@doppelgreener yep, I have not tried 5e out yet, but 4e is currently, and probably will stay, my favorite edition

@doppelgreener fantastic

godskook

@trogdor As a 3.5 fan from when 4e came out, I think we have to be enemies now. :P

trogdor

that is too bad for you then

:P

kviiri

I will stand at the sides while you battle to death!

trogdor

I have bad news, the battle to death isn't happening

XD

kviiri

Not because I don't have a side (I like 4e) but because I'm an absolute coward.

Adam

20:46

@trogdor You know, after hearing about some of the various fighter powers, I really wish that they had kept something for the fighter class in 5e like that. I know that battlemaster fighter gets some maneuvers, but it isn't the same.

kviiri

@Adam I miss the powers too :(

trogdor

I did indeed like the powers

and the way you could build feats into making powers better

but it was especially great that everyone had them

kviiri

Yeah

Adam

After thinking about it for a while I was just like, "yeah...that sounds like a pretty good solution to the linear fighter problem" Just perhaps unfortunately named.

trogdor

so that every class could do a few amazing things, and had at least two different attack options even if they ran out of everything else

BESW

20:48

In our 4e party the physical-feature classes had some of the most interesting, scene-controlling abilities.

trogdor

@Adam this is exactly the kind of thing I liked

no more did Magical classes just automatically outshine Martial classes

kviiri

@Adam They were called something else for fighters, err... techniques? Maneuvers? Can't remember. And spells for arcane classes, prayers for divine classes etc.

BESW

The fighter tossed people across the map and made them cry in the corners, while the warlord stood in the back shouting at people so hard they got extra actions.

kviiri

I remember my first character in 4e, I was also very new to RPGs back then. Eric the Cleric, servant of Avandra, the god of cjange

BESW

The warlock had to bust out encounters and dailies to match the fighter and warlord for sheer "I define the fight" ability.

kviiri

20:50

Change*

Since Avandra is the god of change, paying in large denoninations was of course a sacrament Eric revered. By the second session I had come up with a theological framework explaining it.

BESW

We had excellent character arcs in 4e, and dramatic character-driven moments where we let the mechanics respond to the narrative instead of vice versa.

The Points of Light setting is still my favorite D&D setting of all time.

kviiri

Going to sleep now. G'night everyone!

BESW

ttfn

We're trying Bubblegumshoe from @EvilHatOfficial over at http://thearmchairadventurers.com/therecordings today, head over and check it out!

Tweeted by Armchairquest on August 2, 2017 at 3:34 PM

Adam

@kviiri bye!

trogdor

21:10

@BESW well, part of that was because the Warlock was mainly troll dps

:P

godskook

@BESW Shouldn't one be busting out the Encounter powers every fight anyway?

BESW

Absolutely.

But some classes/builds are better at redefining the fight without expending limited resources.

Just by taking a swing at an enemy, a 4e fighter has forced that character to re-evaluate all their choices for the next round.

Our fighter went much further, as a successful hit would push, prone, and slow as well as just marking.

Trish

21:39

@BESW Having the narrative drive the systems can be fun, and that is how I try to run The Dark Eye and WoD...

BESW

@Trish Aye, it's a style I enjoy. 4e's relationship to the concept is a bit weird though.

Trish

Thing about TDE/DSA is: The characters have possibly tons of skills, a lot of them in the tiny to medium range. So it is likely they have at least/some/ applicable skill in the situation, and often some of the more famous skills allow a char to shine - the players know that and often drive the narrative based on their skills, so here it is easy.
the WoD on the other hand allows the same with a much smaller skillset (and less points to keep track off) - I somehow like HOW much it drives narratice play.

Nobody should view the "Is high level magic availavle in 3.5 E6 variant rules?" as it has a perfect 666 views at the moment!

Not asking for a black copy, but does anybody here have a Werewolf Players Guide (that is the 2nd Edition one)? I need somebody to look up one paragraph for me.

nwp

22:02

Does anyone happen to have a resource for a tavern dice game? Something like what people are talking about here.

I'm thinking about letting the player say "higher" or "lower" and then have the PC and NPC roll a d20, and if the PC wins they double their wager, otherwise they lose it.

Baskakov_Dmitriy

@SevenSidedDie Hey! Could I please know why was our discussion on this answer just fully deleted?

2

A: Is high level magic available in the D&D 3.5 E6 variant rules?

With some abuses, yes, but it may ruin your game The point of E6 is actually excluding high-level spells from the game. Because they break the game, because it is hard to do anything against (some of the) 4+ level spells without other 4+ level spells to counter, which forms that huge gap between...

nwp

It is a bit too simple though, there should be a decision involved, like a reroll or something like that.

Baskakov_Dmitriy

Not moved to chat or smth like that.

Trish

@nwp I happen to somewhere have old rules for some IC dice game in The Dark Eye... it involved rolling 2d6, then (if you wanted to cheat) roll a check on cheating at games (which is a skill) versus the other players observation, then alter the 2d6 and check who won - in case someon saw you cheat you also had very likely a fist in your mouth...

@nwp I even have tiny bone dice for that game^^ they roll a bit uneaven

nwp

heh, reddit links back to rpg.se

doppelgreener

22:10

와썹브로 ! https://t.co/okoceDHteY

Tweeted by issuetopic on August 2, 2017 at 1:28 PM

nwp

I'm not sure if I should have them roll slight of hand vs perception. I'm leaning towards not.

Trish

@nwp it's only for cheating... and that was actually in the "The Dark Eye" mechanics

technical question: when putting out a bounty and you don't like either answer on the question, is paying out the bounty mandatory?

nwp

@Trish You can choose not to award it, in which case it goes to the highest voted positive score answer or the oldest on a tie. If no answer qualifies it just expires and nobody gets it.

BESW

@nwp I recall Wizards put out something called "Dragon Dice" for that purpose a while back.

Trish

@nwp ahh... yes... if somebody gets a 2 or more...

nwp

22:16

@doppelgreener I was told the korean part means "What's up bro".

@BESW hmm, this doesn't seem to be it

BESW

[rummages through folders]

Ahah. Dragon's Hoard and Wishing Well.

I have links, but they're from at least three site revisions ago.

Ah, here we go.

Wizards' dice games-within-games.

Trish

Ok, Frame challenge: is it ok to ask for a quote from an unavailable book that is out of print since about two decades and not available through DTRPG?

nwp

@BESW I found that link, it seems to be dead.

BESW

Really? Works for me.

godskook

@Trish Why wouldn't that be ok, other than on a "read the book to me"-type questions?

BESW

22:23

Wishing Well, Dragon's Hoard, etc.

@Trish Context?

Except for forms of question with which we have years of experience, it's better to ask for judgement on the particular question than for a blanket judgement on the kind of question.

Trish

The problem is: Nobody I know owns a 2nd edition Werewolf Players Guide. I know that book is very very rare by now and DTRPG doesn't seem to have it either.

And I need whatever is written on pg. 189 about "cross-learning gifts"

nwp

@BESW This is super weird. On chrome it works fine but on firefox it gives me 404 page not found.

BESW

@nwp And yet, I'm using Firefox.

Trish

Or at least more specific info than the thrird hand info that it is "GM Fiat"

BESW

@Trish What do you need it for?

Trish

22:26

10

Q: What is the benefit Kitsune have over other Fera when learning Gifts not on their lists?

There's a rules change from the Werewolf: The Apocalypse sourcebook Hengeyokai to the 20th anniversary edition of Werewolf (reference d as W20) that was presented in the supplement Changing Breeds (referenced as W20 CB) that confuses me. Edition History of the issiue Back in (2nd Edition) Henge...

rules-as-written world-of-darkness werewolf-the-apocalypse werewolf-20th-anniversary

Edition history part.

Ohhh, another sengoku question, and this time NOT of me!?

BESW

Hrm. It looks like the question is probably clear enough without the quote. If a good answer needs to provide the quote that'll be fine but I'm not sure why you'd need to ask for it specifically.

Trish

I would want to try to provide it, as - while banjo's answer in itself seems fine, he seems to come to... no conclusion what he wants the rule part to be read: are Kitsune special in some way or not?

Or at least, clarification if there really just is written "This is GM Fiat" or if there are actual guidelines provided.

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