TRPG General Chat

Miniman

1:27 AM

@BESW Sorry, work stuff happened. Yep, we can do that, but it'll be a little complicated.

@BESW Tags where users ask their first question.

BESW

Yey!

Thanks much.

Miniman

All good! It's about what you'd expect.

BESW

It's the comparative ratios of different systems that I'm mostly interested in.

But I didn't want you to do a system-only query because aaaaaa.

Miniman

1:42 AM

@BESW Boom.

BESW

Oooer. How?

Oh, wait. I'm not sure this is what I meant. I'm still impressed though.

nitsua60

@Miniman how about tags on questions? Basically, the same as the first one you linked, but without the restriction to first question?

Miniman

@BESW Well, it could be done with left joins and other annoying stuff, but luckily the tags table inherently stores a count of how many questions have been asked in that tag.

@nitsua60 Just to make sure I've understood, you just mean this in table form?

nitsua60

yuppers. Because I'd like to grab its csv and rub it in the face of the first query's csv.

BESW

I thought the tough part would be sorting out system tags. What I'm looking for is an understanding of the comparitive popularity of systems within first questions; that is, within the set of first questions which systems are asked about the most?

nitsua60

1:46 AM

@Miniman (Actually, because I was looking at the first query and tabbing back to the /tags page trying to eyeball relative position....)

Miniman

@nitsua60 Pretty simple, although it sounds like what you really want to do is in the second query anyway...?

nitsua60

@Miniman probably, but I hadn't yet looked at the second when I asked =\

Miniman

@BESW This is one of those things that's 5 seconds in excel, much longer in SQL - if you link me to a google spreadsheet I can paste it in for you.

BESW

Butterbelle, like all good little pentacorns, delights in all forms of blood magic. https://t.co/2fXGwL8d0I

Tweeted by April_Prime on July 31, 2017 at 11:13 PM

@Miniman docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/…

Miniman

@BESW Done!

Sadly, we don't have a way to programmatically distinguish between system tags and other tags. If anyone comes up with one, that would be amazing, but I don't think it's possible.

Also, you've probably noticed that the %s don't add up to 100 - that's because we allow more than one tag on a question.

nitsua60

1:57 AM

^^ relative frequency of a tag's use on a user's first question (red) vs. the tag's overall usage on questions (blue).

I.e. dnd-5e is "more asked about" as a first question than as a latter question; gm-techniques is "less asked about" as a first question.

oh, wait. Look at how horribly the labels and columns line up... =(

Oh no, it's alright. Excel has just made the brilliant decision to omit every other label for display purposes.

[slow clap, directed at MS]

Miniman

You may have noticed, I added a column that, not to put too fine a point on it, isn't stupid.

nitsua60

okay, second try:

Those are tags where the relative use between first-question-usage and all-question-usage varies most (from among the few hundred most-used tags--down in the low-usage, like five or fewer usages--the small-number statistics are extreme).

So new-players and character-creation are disproportionately asked as a first question, while raw and system-agnostic are disproportionately not asked as a first question.

BESW

2:23 AM

Miniman

2:55 AM

@nitsua60 One fairly minor point that is deeply fascinating to me - we see fighter, rogue, cleric, ranger, and paladin show up as interesting to new users.

Ben

Arve-noon everyone

Miniman

@Ben Eveningeve!

No, that doesn't work.

Prevening!

Shalvenay

hey there @Ben and @KorvinStarmast, how're things going?

Ben

So I had to explain why not shutting down your pc was a bad idea the other day... and I came up with this little tidbit:

Take your average work week. You go to work, cook, clean, exercise, all that. Take care of the kids too if you have them. Only one difference: You're not allowed to sleep. Do that for a week.

Now you can understand why your PC isn't working as well as you might hope when you haven't shut it down in over 2 years

Shalvenay

also @nitsua60 and @BESW -- either of you about? (esp. @nitsua60)

BESW

3:00 AM

Here and there.

nitsua60

@Ben but my neighbor, mr. mandrake, has been awake for years!

whazzup?

Ben

@nitsua60 Case in point?

Shalvenay

got what I think is a must-read for all moderators in the SE system...

code7700.com/standards_captain.htm

BESW

@Ben Idiomatic mondegreen.

Shalvenay

as moderators in the Stack model are really the standards captains of their Stacks, to translate that article's aviation background into what we see here as Stackizens

Ben

3:02 AM

@BESW Fixed it :P

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 @BESW did you get my link?

nitsua60

reading

KorvinStarmast

@Shalvenay I am about tired of being stabbed in the back. Too many rogue/assassins around. How you?

@Shalvenay Had a great D&D roll20 game monday, and am working on learning a few more things to aid and abet my joining the shared world DM soon.

Shalvenay

@KorvinStarmast -- OK here, you may be interested in reading the link I posted here just a few minutes go (I think it provides useful insight as to what the blue diamond means)

KorvinStarmast

OK I go look

Shalvenay

3:11 AM

@KorvinStarmast and good to hear. how'd the game go down?

KorvinStarmast

We are in the 5e version of the giants adventures that I played over 30 years ago. I am a half orc champion. We are having great fun.

I am all sword and board, but since I am medium, my shield master "shove" is two size differences to small to work. Hehe, I have to improvise.

Wow, Shal, that's a great link.

A good flight examiner can be a great instructor.

Can be, yeah. I was a NATOPS instructor in three different aircraft, and the head of standards for pilot training for three years. That article strikes home.

I'd say it has little to do with SE moderation, but maybe a little.

Shalvenay

yeah, beyond that even -- I think it speaks to what the Stack's blue diamonds should be

nitsua60

So I probably need some orientation on the lingo: examiner vs. standards captain, check-ride, ...?

KorvinStarmast

Mmm, let me sleep on that. My initial take is too far of a reach, but in the morning I may feel differently.

Shalvenay

metaphorically, they in a way are our designated "standards captains"

KorvinStarmast

3:17 AM

@nitsua60 Without standardization a lot of people die. Aviation history, writ large.

standards instructors/captains keep the bar raised for all aviators in their organization.

nitsua60

@KorvinStarmast So are you playing SKT, or did someone pull G1, G2, G3 off the shelf to play through with 5e characters/rules?

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 ah. examiner is someone sent by an external party to evaluate the department/flight crew/pilot. (say a FAA designee for a pilot). standards captains are internal evaluators if you will. a check-ride is a formal examination of a crew's performance.

KorvinStarmast

@nitsua60 G123, from Yawning portal, I think

Shalvenay

sound about right @KorvinStarmast?

nitsua60

@KorvinStarmast Oh, sure. (I've avoided reading ahead in TfYP, as I may play some of them.)

KorvinStarmast

3:18 AM

@Shalvenay Yeah, close enough. I used to inspect entire wings and do no notice standards rides

Wing commanders hated me

The IP's loved our show.

We listened to them.

@nitsua60 I have the book and gave it to my son for safe keeping until the campaign is over. Resist any temptation.

My favorite standards ride was in a T-45. Funny, for me OBOGS worked fine.

nitsua60

@KorvinStarmast Problem is: I'm running one of its adventures right now, so have to keep it close at hand. But I'm hoping this group'll rotate GMs and play through some more of them. Because (a) I'm running ToA for AL in the fall, so need to reclaim my time, and (b) there are some other awesome GMs in the group so I'd like to see some of their work.

Shalvenay

@KorvinStarmast yeah, I hope they get to the root of that OBOGGS issue.

KorvinStarmast

The giants modules are so darned fun.

Heh, Shoe relieved Rear Admiral Bull. (I worked for VADM SHoemaker years ago).

OBOGS ain't RADM Bull's problem. IMO, NAVAIR mailed it in about 10 years ago and bought something cheap. (further comments censored)

Miniman

On another note, am I the only who finds the answers to this question deeply shocking? Not to put too fine a point on it, I've found my DMG to be largely a waste of paper, and the Monster Manual possibly the most useful of the 5e books.

KorvinStarmast

Yeah, or DM for this Giants thing is awesome. Running the whole thing in Greyhawk AFTER the wars! Cool beans.

Best part is it is once every two weeks, on Monday, so wife can't complain I do this too often. Woot.

Man, I wish she liked D&D. Darnit.

@Miniman No, not a waste of paper unless you are a veteran DM.

Ben

3:25 AM

@Miniman I have run 3 games without using more than about 30 minutes perusing the DMG. I use the PHB and the MM, and that's pretty much it.

KorvinStarmast

Monsters for free, if one is on a budget, is the last purchase.

A lot of new people to D&D NEED the DMG. A lot.

Ben

The only stuff I got from the DMG was managing DC, and artefacts

KorvinStarmast

Rulings over rules. End of.

Miniman

@KorvinStarmast Hmmm, interesting. When I got my DMG, I was a very new DM, and finding it difficult - and the DMG did not help at all.

@Ben For me, magic items and the planes stuff. And even the planes stuff I haven't used much, really.

KorvinStarmast

What? How long you been playing D&D?

Miniman

3:28 AM

@KorvinStarmast Playing? A brief stint in high school, then about a year before 5e released.

KorvinStarmast

Huh, the DMG probably needs a users guide on what parts are beginning, middle, and advanced. It's a great book.

It captures a load of stuff it took me YEARS to learn.

Miniman

@KorvinStarmast What sort of thing?

KorvinStarmast

It is built for a DM who is building his own world.

Ben

$user image$

nitsua60

@Miniman I am very underwhelmed by the 5e DMG.

KorvinStarmast

3:30 AM

That is its purpose

I learned how to be a DM the hard way. Before any DMG. That book captures 40 years of corporate knowledge.

Ben

@KorvinStarmast I do have a friend that has created his own world from the ground up - I'd like to see if that is also how he felt about the DMG

nitsua60

But I find it hard to separate that from where I am as a GM, vs. where the querent is.

KorvinStarmast

you kids these days, don't appreciate that we walked to school uphill in the snow both ways in the heat of summer ...

I think people need to go OSR before they ever play any D&D after 1e.

nitsua60

@KorvinStarmast carrying my redbox and sneaking looks at it between classes =)

KorvinStarmast

Or, start with BECMI and go from there.

Unless you bring 200 gallons of water, whatcha doin' on my lawn? Eh?

Shalvenay

3:33 AM

@KorvinStarmast yeah -- I'm actually kind of glad I got my D&D start with prehistoric stuff vs starting with 5e or worse yet, 3.5e or 4e and having to work backwards

nitsua60

That's the thing--I think I'd recommend that OP grab either the starter set and run LMoP or one of the hardcover adventures before either of the DMG or MM.

KorvinStarmast

Starting at 5e is not bad.

@nitsua60 yeah.

Shalvenay

yeah -- starting at 5e is not the worst thing you can do

nitsua60

(Is pretty sure Shalv just called the third D&D I played "prehistoric.")

Shalvenay

starting with 4e, well, you'll get told that your experience was different

BESW

3:34 AM

Mmm. I feel like the 3.5 DMG misled me in a lot of ways and my ability as a GM--especially in terms of making my own worlds--expanded in proportion to my ability to let Wizards' advice go.

KorvinStarmast

The Alexandrian has a hilarious article on doing an OD&D run with no Greyhawk. I nearly choked laughing.

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 prehistoric is pre-AD&D :) (all the stuff that can get smashed together under the "0e" label)

KorvinStarmast

Dude, that was so much fun I can't explain. (Who song reference).

Miniman

@nitsua60 Yeah, that seems like much better advice to me, too.

nitsua60

@Shalvenay nvm, then. (I didn't think you started 0e?)

KorvinStarmast

3:34 AM

Working without a net.

Shalvenay

starting with 3.5 or PF though -- you probably wouldn't have a clue that you were starting in a weirdo place

Ben

@KorvinStarmast To be fair though, personally, I learn far better through experience, which is how I learned most of the rules. By playing with other experienced players, I learned the rules in practice, then went back to read the PHB for clarification. After playing for several years, I started DMing, but again, I read not much more than a handful of pages in the DMG, opting for a more "in-practice" understanding of how to manage a game, from a more experienced DM

KorvinStarmast

And I was the first to run an Empire of the Petal Throne campain in our area. Working without a net.

You Have To Play A Lot Before being A DM. SO I GOT 5 downvotes for speaking the truth.

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 I did indeed start in the 0e realm (it was a hexcrawl type setup in a custom world)

KorvinStarmast

The hive mind are idiots.

BESW

3:36 AM

@KorvinStarmast [raises hand] I GMed for about a year before I ever got to run a PC. Didn't seem to do me or my games any lasting harm.

Shalvenay

@KorvinStarmast -- not everyone has the luxury of being bootstrapped in by an existing table where they can get settled as a player before going off to DM

KorvinStarmast

BESW the exception to the rule proves nothing.

Ben

@KorvinStarmast I would personally agree with this, but I do know several people that have only ever DM'd, never played any PCs

nitsua60

@Miniman hmm... p'raps should post it.

BESW

It's literally impossible for everyone to start as a player, unless every new RPGer begins by joining an existing group.

KorvinStarmast

3:37 AM

I started as GM in EPT. We worked without a net. That was in the 70's. In the year 2017, there is no excuse.

BESW

So I'd say, definitionally, there's a ton of GMs out there who are doing just fine without any prior experience under their belt.

KorvinStarmast

Play first, then DM.

No Excuse.

Shalvenay

then again, I got into the hobby upside down and backwards anyway with most of my formative experience being in online PBCish freeform

KorvinStarmast

@BESW Nope, not buying the stock shares you are selling.

Too much mileage on this one and too many trainwrecks.

nitsua60

Hmm... just got sent a third document in a series. Named "alpha," "beta," and "omega." Can't tell if there won't be any more in the series, or if the producer just doesn't know that many Greek letters... =\

BESW

3:39 AM

That's... patronizing at best and I have no constructive response except blanket disagreement that there's any version of the RPG experience that's objectively a superior way to do it. So long as everyone's safe and happy, individuals are going to benefit from a variety of experiences.

KorvinStarmast

How about gamma? Ray is his cousin

Shalvenay

RPGs are the ultimate expression of TIMTOWTDI, haha

KorvinStarmast

@BEWS Suggest a look at a bell curve. You are in the five to six sigma region. That means you rock, but you are not the mean, nor the median.

BESW

I have no quarrel with the notion you've never had a good experience with starting as a GM. But you get to discount my anecdotes as trivial blips, and I get to do the same for yours, and if that's the level this conversation has devolved to then there's no benefit to continuing it.

Shalvenay

@BESW -- I'd say it's less workload to learn the ropes as a player than as a DM

KorvinStarmast

3:41 AM

@BESW On the other hand, I am dying to read Kuntz' full book, because I think Dave Arneson would most likely agree with you in principle.

Shalvenay

that's the chief argument I see for the player-first approach, at least in traditional or quasi-traditional systems

KorvinStarmast

@BESW If you have not had the player experience, you will lack as a DM.

The innovators played and DM'd both, a lot.

Ben

@Shalvenay Ok. I've tried, and failed. What is "TIMTOWTDI"??

Shalvenay

in systems that don't embrace anything close to a traditional DM role, it may be OK to jump in cold and take whatever slot at the table

@Ben There Is More Than One Way To Do It

KorvinStarmast

"Whose dungeon do we play in next week" was our most common question.

BESW

3:42 AM

@KorvinStarmast Sure, absolutely. And if you haven't had the GM experience, you'll lack as a player. I see no objective reason to prioritize one over the other in all cases forever.

My group benefited greatly from having everybody stop thinking of themselves in terms of those roles anyway.

KorvinStarmast

FALSE. if you haven't had the GM experience, you'll lack as a player Disagree, in D&D, as some people are not DM material.

Ben

@Shalvenay Ahh. "More than one way to skin a cat" is the phrase I most often hear (and certainly one of the more tame...)

KorvinStarmast

Other game systems, sure, different norms and boundaries.

some players have no business as a DM. Ever. That's just how it works.

Ben

@Miniman @daze413 you guys played Bloodborne?

KorvinStarmast

But the problem is, you only find out when you try.

BESW

3:44 AM

Even if we accept the notion that DMing is some mystical inborn quality rather than a learned skill, I've actually known folks who improved as players by failing as a DM. So, yeah.

Joel Harmon

@nitsua60 I counter-propose this as a stat distribution mechanism: after determining your numbers as normal, the rest of the party picks either your highest or lowest number and assigns it to a stat of their choice. Worked out great in a DW one-shot I ran. Admittedly, the theme was "everyone else makes your character as un-like your normal characters as possible".

@KorvinStarmast I'd say the reverse is true: some great DMs have no business being a player

Miniman

@Ben What's Bloodborne? I don't think I've heard of any PC games of that name :P

Joel Harmon

(though I can only think of one example there)

KorvinStarmast

@BESW DMing is some mystical inborn quality Enough of the nonsense. This has to do with personality styles, skill, and creativity.

BESW

Not seeing any need to lay down absolutist blanket laws for everyone I've never met.

Ben

3:45 AM

@Miniman I was thinking that might be the case haha

KorvinStarmast

OK, sorry, I am the wrong generation to be in this conversation any longer. Good night and happy gaming to all.

Joel Harmon

@Ben then again, my sample size of players is larger than my sample size of player-DMs, which is much larger than my sample of non-player DMs.

Ben

@JoelHarmon I apologise, but I have no idea what you're on about haha. I think it may be because I accidentally replied to you, instead of Miniman

nitsua60

@BESW o/

Joel Harmon

@Ben Ah, I see. Non-DM players vs. DM-players vs DM non-players, per Korvin and BESW's conversation.

BESW

3:51 AM

@nitsua60 [wave]

nitsua60

@JoelHarmon Yeah, I feel like we're all reasoning from a couple-dozen person experiences, at best, unless any of us are both a social savant (able to pick up a lot about a person very quickly) and a prolific convention player/gm.

Joel Harmon

@BESW Separately, I know some DMs who excel at particular styles of game, and are awful at others. One DM gives you a bunch of buttons to press to see what happens, another thinks it's not railroading if you get to take side paths between pre-defined points A and B.

BESW

@JoelHarmon That'd be me.

nitsua60

@BESW Bad GMing definitely improves my play =)

Joel Harmon

also, I see chat devolved into the Great Alignment Debate, Part MMXLXXVII today.

Shalvenay

3:53 AM

dev.to/codemouse92/…

BESW

(Also, if starting as GM had any significant detrimental effect on me, it was on my perspective as a player because of some very group/system/style-specific habits I picked up as a GM early on. I've mostly eradicated them from my GMing, but the reefs stick up above the waterline sometimes when I'm running a PC.)

Shalvenay

the link this time is re: One True Way-ism vs. the TIMTOWTDI nature of the stuff we work with

Ben

@JoelHarmon My only input at this point is that DMing does benefit from having certain skills. However they can be learned. Some people can be better at it, others need to work harder at it, some that are terrible enjoy doing it, some that are superb hate it.

So all in all, to each their own

@BESW ^^ that's not a Mollywobble is it? :P

Joel Harmon

@Shalvenay I nerd rage over this pretty hard; "preferably one obvious way" and "exist multiple ways" are entirely compatible.

nitsua60

@Miniman behold

Shalvenay

3:56 AM

@JoelHarmon yeah, even Python admits multiple solutions to a given problem -- its just that there's going to be one that stands out from the others as more elegant, performant, or maintainable

Ben

@JoelHarmon You can go over a wall, around a wall. or through it. One option might be better, or easier, but more or less valid

BESW

@Ben A what? My mollies swim quite straight, thank you.

Joel Harmon

@Ben My summary would be that, for games with GMs, it's valuable to sit on both sides of the table a few times to get a good perspective on the whole.

Miniman

@nitsua60 I was already reading it - I'd make the point that, even when building your own world, the quantity and quality of lore in the MM vastly outweighs the DMG, but otherwise, looks good!

Ben

@BESW Mondegreen** I forgot what the actual word was haha

BESW

3:58 AM

Ah. I ran across the metaphor in Dissipation & Despair about ten years ago, and rather liked it.

Miniman

@nitsua60 Also, I love the wording of the final sentence.

Ben

@JoelHarmon Definitely. Understanding it as a whole is an important tool

Miniman

@nitsua60 Good edits - definitely showing both sides of the story.

nitsua60

@Ben I'd be curious to see a discussion from experienced GMs at some point: what skills that you practice daily in your profession help you GM? I wonder because I believe a lot about being a classroom teacher is portable to GMing. Which makes me assume there are things others practice (that I don't) that help GMing, and I feel like I've got a blind spot!

BESW

@Ben It's the idea of a reef as a hidden danger lurking just below the surface, waiting to rip open passing ships and only sticking above the water at low tide.

Miniman

4:00 AM

@nitsua60 Does it count if I use skills from my profession for answering questions on this site?

nitsua60

@Miniman I hate to be an armchair quarterback, but the one semi-rant I've got about TSR/WotC is that you need to already understand the game to make sense of the game's manuals. And I'd say that goes all the way back to 0e!

@Miniman Does it help your GMing?

Miniman

@nitsua60 Yep, it's been a persistent issue through the game's history. Try one of the D&D computer games sometime - they tell you everything about your character, but in ways that require you to understand the system to have even the faintest clue what it all means.

nitsua60

@JoelHarmon wow, I must be tired. All those typos....

Miniman

@nitsua60 Answering questions on this site? No, not really.

BESW

20

Q: Roleplaying as a job: skills and background?

A friend of mine is a great DM, and we always told him that he should be paid for his skills. He smiles and says that it's enough to have fun, but seriously, can you make a living out of role-playing games? What are the options, career path and important skills to develop? I am not only referrin...

games-industry

18

Q: What real world skills can RPGs improve?

What real world skills can be improved by playing Role-playing games? What skills have you or others in your experience improved through gaming?

social system-agnostic

4

Q: What non-RPG hobbies are complementary to the RPG addiction?

We want to recruit players for our regular table-top group, and have been debating where to look, to find non-players who would most likely be interested in playing and enjoy the experience. Going through our list of hobbies and the people we share them with, we realized that most of them seem t...

skills

Joel Harmon

4:03 AM

@nitsua60 it's pretty late there

@Miniman not even improving your familiarity and/or lookup time?

nitsua60

@BESW That last one is getting closest....

Ben

@nitsua60 personally, I feel like my DMing is shaky at best. I use pre-planned lists of encounteres and fights, but as soon as something comes up that's "off-script" (which always happens - this is just how the game goes), I have trouble letting it all flow smoothly. My storytelling on the other hand, is quite good, just from being the creative-minded person that I am.

And I work in IT

Miniman

@JoelHarmon Hmmm, fair point.

BESW

Back when I made props, my design and layout skills were very useful.

nitsua60

@Ben yeah, you do!

Miniman

4:05 AM

@nitsua60 Not clicking the link, but I assume you're making a joke about "I work it"?

nitsua60

@Miniman "joke" might be a little strong....

BESW

@Miniman Missy Elliot's 2002 single "Work It."

Ben

@nitsua60 [ahem]... that took me longer than I care to admit to realiase...

Miniman

@nitsua60 Sorry - youtube links are really tough when you can't follow them, because they tell you nothing about what they lead to.

nitsua60

Had wanted to link RuPaul, but then learned the song's title was actually "You Better Work."

Ben

4:07 AM

Work emails get way more eldritch when you read I.T. as IT. IT IS AWARE OF THE PROBLEM IT HAS ISSUED A TICKET IT IS WAITING AT YOUR DESK

Tweeted by emilyhughes on April 19, 2016 at 1:55 PM

2

Joel Harmon

I think that's it for me, other than casually tossing out that the best alignment system is clearly collectivist-individualist vs. responsibility-authority

BESW

user15026

@Ben I like this

BESW

Speaking of alignments, I'm reading the Wayward Children series by Seanan McGuire, in which the different worlds children find in wardrobes and cupboards are sorted by the "cardinal directions" of Logic/Nonsense and Wickedness/Virtue.

Miniman

@BESW So...it's basically a standard Planescape campaign, then?

BESW

4:11 AM

Well, it takes place in a boarding school for kids who've come back to the "real" world and want to return but can't find their doors anymore or are otherwise barred from going back to their fantasy realm.

(There's another boarding school for kids who don't want to go back but are having trouble adjusting.)

So in many ways the worlds serve mostly as character notes for the kids.

Miniman

@BESW There's potential for that to be a pretty dark story.

BESW

@Miniman Oh yes. McGuire's not shying away from that.

It's not, strictly speaking, a grim story. But it's not shy of its grim elements.

Miniman

So you said "their doors" and "their realm" - can a kid visit another kid's world, or are worlds bounds to specific kids?

BESW

Doors find the kids, it seems.

Miniman

Hmmm, interesting.

Maybe I've been playing D&D for too long, but I feel compelled to ask - what's in it for the doors?

BESW

4:18 AM

Based on the survivors who come back, at any rate, it seems like doors open to kids who have to pretend to be someone or something they're not in the real world (a quiet boy who has to be boisterous or he'll be bullied, a girl with a scientific mind whose parents want her to just be pretty, etc), and the realms those kids find are the places where they can be themselves.

But the realms aren't perfectly matched, so the kids' experiences may go sour.

@Miniman Unknown, so far as I've read.

The theory at the school is that it's less "choice" and more "sympatico," that the realms/doors 'vibrate' in some metaphysical way so that a child's need causes them to open if the need is resonant with the realm.

Miniman

Makes sense - that was meant to be mostly tongue-in-cheek.

BESW

I'm thinking it could make for a great RPG setting.

Character creation would be about defining a door opened for you, what the realm fulfilled for you, what it gave you (every kid comes back with a gift, like creative hands or enhanced eyesight or a bone flute that makes skeletons dance) and why your family thinks you're broken now that you've returned.

Miniman

It probably says something about my personality that I'd much rather have play the door bit than the "dealing with the aftermath" bit.

BESW

Well, yes. That'd be a different game.

Miniman

Sorry, that wasn't meant to be a criticism of the idea in any way.

BESW

4:31 AM

It'd be interesting to approach "finding a magical world" from the perspective of it being a place that doesn't change you so much as let you be more fully yourself.

Miniman

And, too, how a place that lets you be more fully yourself changes you.

BESW

Yeah.

Miniman

Summer in Orcus is very close to being an example, I think.

BESW

Both versions of the concept hit a "fixing problems" note that I like; there's something about starting a story with a dissatisfied character and playing toward their satisfaction which attracts me, and it's an itch a lot of RPGs don't actually scratch.

Summer in Orcus is definitely resonant. It's not a coincidence that McGuire and Vernon are friends.

daze413

@Ben Yes, but haven't gotten very far, I think I went up to fighting that guy who turns into a werewolf in the graveyard.

Ben

4:43 AM

@daze413 Ah yes, Gascoigne (or however it's spelled)

I've only just started playing it this week. already apparently 3/4 through the game, 3 characters, and absolutely loving it! At first I wasn't sure about it, because effectively, it's Dark Souls/Demon's Souls, with a different face.

However, they did it well, and I am really really enjoying it :)

BESW

@daze413 Where, O Werewolf?

Ben

Except the NPC summons. I implore you... and anyone else that is yet to play this game DO NOT USE THE NPC SUMMONS. They are by far the absolute worst AI follower I have ever experienced. Including Skyrim

Miniman

@Ben @doppelgreener for your attention.

Ben

@Miniman I'm a little sad that you can't play it haha. They've released all the other games on PC, but Sony owns exclusive rights to it.

Miniman

4:59 AM

@Ben Ah well. It's not like I need more games to add to my to-do list.

On a related note, I recently started playing Hollow Knight (thanks to @trogdor) - it's like a cross between Ori and the Blind Forest and Dark Souls, I'd strongly recommend it to anyone who enjoys both those games.

Ben

5:13 AM

So... that's my day down the toilet.

Miniman

@Ben What happened?

Ben

I just saw an article about how apparently Tom Holland has quit the Marvel franchise after a series of increasingly intrusive phone calls from Stan Lee about an apparent ability that the super hero has.

Before I describe what the ability is, I would just like to specify that, if I have not already, I am an incredibly avid Spidey-fan. Have been since I was a kid, and I am very pleased with the performance that Holland has provided in the last two movies.

Miniman

@Ben ...wait, what? Why would Stan Lee be asking an actor about Spiderman's abilities rather than the other way round?

Ben

@Miniman No, Stan Lee is the one telling Holland about it.

So the ability is that apparently Spider-Man can "shoot a stream of warm water from his neck". I won't go into the specifics about it as described in the article I just read, but this is just ridiculous.

Miniman

@Ben Link to help out confused djinn?

Ben

5:18 AM

clickhole.com/article/…

Miniman

@Ben ...what?

Ben

This has upset me quite a lot, primarily because while the fact that this is incredibly absurd, giving up on Spider-Man again would completely destroy the character.

Miniman

Is this maybe part of Stan Lee's increasing age?

Ben

I really just don't know what to think

Several others have said things along the same lines about other people quitting the franchise

It's simply absurd. The content, the management, the whole plan.

I don't want to believe it, and the fact that this is posted on some click-bait article on some site I've never heard of is not very supportive either.

But the fact is, that whether or not this is true, the whole thing has just upset me on a very personal level, because it's destroying my favourite super hero

nitsua60

Pretty sure that's not real. Here's the Stan Lee I've been pointed to in the past by a friend who works at Marvel.

Ben

5:26 AM

@nitsua60 Again, I really don't think it's true - the level of absurdity is just beyond being believable.

Miniman

@Ben This is something I've never quite understood - people ask me who my favorite superhero is, and I'm just like "Huh?"

About all I know is that it's not Batman.

Ben

Fair enough. You never read much super hero stuff when you were a kid?

BESW

Jaime Reyes, and I'm kinda glad the New 52 completely re-wrote him to be unrecognizable immediately after his first series finished, because it means I get to have a single, complete story about Jaime and then ignore everything else.

(Narratively, the Big Two's inability to let characters' stories end is one of their most glaring problems. It pales in comparison to their problems with infrastructure and management, but whatever.)

Miniman

@Ben Not really, which is weird, because I always knew about them. I guess it's just a cultural absorption thing for me?

Ben

@Miniman I didn't really get into it either, I only read the comics that my Dad had from when he was young. A few Batman comics, The Phantom, Spider-Man, and I think one or two Future Avenger ones

But for some reason I just immediately attached myself to Spiderman

BESW

5:32 AM

@Miniman I love Batman from a critical analysis perspective; even more than the Doctor and Dracula he's a great case study for pop culture gestalt malleability. But as a character he's got no discernable personality and as a role model Deadpool might be more admirable than most versions of Bruce.

Miniman

For me, I mean, it's not like I'm unfamiliar with the concept of having a favorite character, or anything like that. I just...I dunno, don't find any of the superheroes particularly appealing, I guess.

Ben

@Miniman I can understand that. I have a few friends that never really had one either until (likely the opposite of your reaction) the games came out, and now they can't get enough of him.

BESW

yeah, most superheroes, for me, aren't coherent enough to identify as "someone I like." At best there are "stories I like" or "versions I like."

(This is why the New 52 cutoff let me identify Jaime as "someone I like." He just vanished after his first series and was replaced by a bad copy in a reboot I can ignore.)

Miniman

@Ben With Batman specifically, he's just the superhero equivalent of No Man's Sky.

That one, at least, I know exactly what I'm reacting to and why.

BESW

@Miniman [amused]

Ben

5:37 AM

Yet if you mention "Azrael" or Damien, they have no idea what I'm talking about

BESW

@Ben Oh, man, Knightfall is a storyline I can get behind.

Miniman

As a side note, I think one area in which No Man's Sky is severely underrated is the level to which it's given us a go-to analogy for overhyped things.

A year ago, I would've had to explain what I meant, now I can just say "No-Man's Sky" and everyone understands.

BESW

@Miniman Oh. I thought you meant Batman is like No Man's Sky in that he's an unending series of randomly different variations on a theme with little to no point.

Miniman

@BESW Zing! That works too.

Ben

BESW

5:40 AM

(My fascination with Batman lies in examining how those variations reflect the zietgeist from which each emerges.)

The Lego Batman is interesting because it tackles all of that head-on.

Miniman

Anyone who likes comedy musicals will probably enjoy Holy Musical Batman, which also examines some of Batman's biggest flaws.

BESW

Its metatext, I think, is that Adam West is best Batman.

@Miniman [adds to list]

Miniman

@BESW If you haven't experienced a Starkid musical before, it might take some getting used to, but it's a lot of fun if you can take it in the spirit it was intended.

And definitely one of their best, so a good place to start.

trogdor

6:16 AM

@Miniman flattery will only get you everywhere

Ben

Oh, @trogdor I believe you play(ed) dark souls as well?

trogdor

@Ben this is false

Ben

Ah. Nevermind then haha

trogdor

I have not actually played even a second of any Dark Souls, Demon Souls, or even Bloodborn

Ben

I have recently started playing Bloodborne, and am thoroughly enjoying it. Unless I'm mistaken once again, @doppelgreener is the only other one so far that has played it

trogdor

6:27 AM

I think this is correct

Miniman

@Ben Yep, you and doppel are the only people ever to play it for sure :P

trogdor

lol

what I meant mostly was " I am pretty sure @doppelgreener has in fact played Bloodborn"

not so much sure at all whether or not anyone else who frequents this chat has

but I recall talking to greener about certain parts of Bloodborn because I have watched playthroughs of it

Miniman

@trogdor There's a few others.

trogdor

this may also be one reason why anyone might think I had played it, if they saw me talking about it in detail

@Miniman fair enough then

Ben

@trogdor That would be it then

trogdor

6:33 AM

@Ben yeah sorry about the misunderstanding that may have caused then

Miniman

@doppelgreener Incidentally, looking over old Dark Souls conversation, you mention a secret miniboss at the start of DS3 - who is that? I'd like to believe I'm pretty thorough about this sort of thing, and I don't recall ever finding one.

Ben

@Miniman "secret" miniboss?

Miniman

@Ben Is there a non-secret miniboss I'm forgetting about?

Ben

@Miniman Well I'm just as confused as you are - the only "secret" boss I can think of would be getting to the Dancer early (which isn't so much of a secret anymore), but the "miniboss" is the confusing part for me. Do you know where this is?

Miniman

@Ben No, hence the question XD

Ben

6:37 AM

@Miniman Yeah. It depends on what "miniboss" means... Like... it could be the Dragon? Or the "Pus of Man" enemies? Or even the Sword Master?

Miniman

Your guess is as good as mine.

@Ben Heh, the Sword Master. He charged at me and casually fell off a ledge.

Fortunately I've learned enough in my travels to immediately restart the game when a special looking enemy falls off a ledge.

Ben

@Miniman Cheese haha

Miniman

@Ben Is it still cheese if it's an accident?

(The first time I played Dark Souls, I accidentally picked up about 8 million souls.)

Ben

@Miniman I suppose it's excusable? :P

@Miniman I'm also slightly confused about the boss he's referring to in DkS1... "You run away or die and progress either way" If he's referring to the Stray Demon, (which I believe is the case, from context), that is incorrect.

BESW

You accidentally 8 million souls?

Ben

6:43 AM

So it's a possibility he's referring to one of the actual bosses as a miniboss?

@Miniman How?? Haha. I'm just thinking you looked at your counter once and went "uhhh... what?"

Miniman

@Ben Nah, you see, it's like this.

i met this one lolcat, and she was all liek "hey u wanna be a bro" and i was all liek "yeh sure ima be a bro" and she was all liek "hey put on this ring" and i was all liek "puts on the ring"

Ben

@Miniman Ohhh. Dem bro shenanigans

Miniman

Anyway, I think I interrupted 2 high-level players' private duel, because one of them killed the other and I got 8 million souls without doing anything.

Then I kept being re-summoned, but they paused their duel while the one I had invaded killed me.

Ben

I see.

It wasn't the Forest Hunter ring?

Miniman

A few iterations later, I looked up "Forest Hunters" and took the ring off.

Ben

6:47 AM

Yup

I used to hate that forest so much hahaha

Miniman

@Ben It was, and yeah, it's a bit silly to use that as your dueling method, but it was Dark Souls on PC several years after release, so I guess they wouldn't generally get interrupted, anyway.

Ben

[Playing game, meticulously exploring all areas, picking up all items, talking to all npcs]

[get to forest]

[speedrun strats]

Miniman

Anyway, I didn't want to throw off the experience curve too much, so I banked as much of the souls as I could.

Ben

Yeah. I did that with one of my characters in DkS3 - max soft level by duping soul items. It's fun to just breeze through the game after finishing it all, but I avoid online play with that character

I defeated Vordt with no armour and no weapons - was dealing 100 damage with my bare fists

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