TRPG General Chat

Zachiel

12:13 AM

@Skyler The one I use is called Sidekick

You can have private channels with players if they need to roll in secret

BESW

2:08 AM

This thread is relephant to my interests.

Shalvenay

hey there @BESW

BESW

[wave]

Shalvenay

did read Elf vs. Orc btw -- turns out I had read the first part before, but not the rest

was fairly interesting, but seemed...unfinished xD

Skyler

@BESW you know that during the greek era the color blue didnt exist

BESW

That's... one way to put it, I guess.

Skyler

2:14 AM

they were split up along purples and greens and because of that people actually perceived them as greens and purples

the ocean was called wine colored in greek epics iirc

BESW

That's a very modern Euro-American interpretation of their vocabulary.

Skyler

the same thing has been tested with aboriginal populations in the Amazons

cognitive perception of the color blue as a distinct entity and its own color being partially derived from language in those studies too

BESW

It'd be just as accurate to say that they focused on values other than hue when describing color; does the fact that we focus on hue over chroma in our language mean we don't see hue as well as chroma?

Skyler

@BESW I'd say so, as a personal experience, I have this shirt with red and grey stripes on a white background

BESW

I've seen the studies speculating about Greek colorblindness, and I find them... a stretch, at best.

Skyler

2:19 AM

the color is very clearly grey if you examine it closely, but it looks blue

BESW

It's more likely an epistemological shift, not a physical one.

Skyler

which green is different here?
http://www.sciencealert.com/images/Green1.jpg

BESW

What's your point?

Skyler

@BESW This was a test done on Amazon tribes with a large variety of words to describe green.

BESW

I linked a thread of elephant art, and I'm not seeing the connection, nor am I seeing a particular thrust for this conversation.

Skyler

2:21 AM

They could instantly spot the difference.

(Some of) the elephant drawings may well have been what elephants looked like to people who saw them if they were trying to classify them based on creatures theyd seen before

BESW

You're shifting back and forth from "blue didn't exist" to "physical differences change color perception" to "linguistic diversity changes color perception" and I'm not following how anything is responding to what came before it or what I'm saying. If you're making a point, there are major cognitive leaps you're leaving me behind on. It just feels like I'm being bombarded with random semi-related statements to no cumulative effect, and it's not a conversation.

Skyler

More likely, to the point of almost certainty, is that they looked like this in their memory

"linguistic diversity based on previous experience changes perception"

that sums them all up basically

BESW

That would be a narrow symptomatic example of epistemological shifts, yes.

Do you feel that you're rebutting something I've said?

Or agreeing with me?

Skyler

Probably would say I agree on most things save for the Euro-American interpretation bit

Basically I'd say linguistic shifts cause physical shifts in our senses

So Im not sure how well that plays with your epistemological definition

howdy @minimman

Miniman

Hi

If it helps, I also have no idea what point you're trying to make.

SevenSidedDie

2:39 AM

There is some evidence that our ability to perceive differences of colour correlates with the colour categories in our language(s), but I don't believe I recall any studies that show whether this is causative or based on a third common factor (e.g., environment shaping both colour perception and colour categories in language). So that's still inconclusive sciencing in progress.

Also cognition is way too complex for “linguistic shifts cause physical shifts in our senses” to be accurate.

Skyler

@SevenSidedDie at some larger level theres definitely an aspect of "_____ shifts cause physical shifts in our senses" wouldnt you agree

why else would we ever experience cognitive dissonance?

SevenSidedDie

@Skyler No actually. It's actually at the much smaller level, where brain plasticity in our sensory cortices happens. The actual sensory organs are generally unaffected.

BESW

"physical shifts" is... kind of ambiguous. Are you saying that our color receptors change based on the languages we learn? Because no.

Skyler

@SevenSidedDie browser crashed as I was trying to correct my statement

SevenSidedDie

@Skyler Cognitive dissonance is generally an emotional phenomenon, not sensory.

BESW

2:45 AM

But if you mean what SSD's talking about in terms of brain re-wiring, that's the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. And yes, that's kind of a thing.

Skyler

I originally said perception rather than purely senses

BESW

And yeah, cognitive dissonance is a totally different thing.

Skyler

calling those two exactly the same sounds pretty dubious to me

not that im saying you did

@SevenSidedDie id say that this point is correct to a large extent but the translation of that data in our brain into a functional bit of info changes

BESW

Mmm. You're making a great many claims, from "blue didn't exist" to "language influences perception" and when we try to talk about one you jump to another, or redefine terms like "physical shift." That's... not making me want to keep having this conversation.

SevenSidedDie

To super-simplify it, we have a sensory equivalent to “muscle memory”: enough sensory training can create new sensory discrimination abilities (or erase old ones). That's different from Sapir-Whorf, which posited language shapes/constrains language, which was debunked ages ago.

@Skyler Yes, our brain can rewire how we organise and ultimately perceive incoming sensory information. (In fact, it already does this, which presents the conundrum of our senses verifiably lying to us constantly in order for us to be functional creatures. Them's deep rabbit holes…)

Skyler

2:50 AM

@BESW blue is a functional bit of info, but its also what you see. So maybe its just that we are disagreeing on what seeing a color is. Im using a super functional definition.

BESW

Then defining terms and sticking with them is a thing you need to do if you want to have a coherent conversation where you can legitimately make distinctions between "sense" and "perception" in order to defend a point.

SevenSidedDie

@Skyler Colour is super complicated, and that's probably simplifying it too much.

Skyler

@BESW That's what I'm trying to do, from my perspective the conversation keeps trying to drift from what you guys are saying.

@SevenSidedDie fair enough

SevenSidedDie

I keep starting to write a summary of what I imagine you're getting at, inserting bits of nuance from cognitive science, epistemological and metaphysical philosophy, and linguistics, but I keep stopping when I realise it would take a first-year university paper to scratch the surface of the multiple angles needed to fully appreciate the complexity of properly tackling ancient Greeks and the colour blue.

(I actually did do my degree in this stuff. I know enough to truly know how little I know. ;)

3

Skyler

@SevenSidedDie I swear everything feels like that

anything worth exploring is 99% unknown to you once you think youre starting to get it

SevenSidedDie

3:04 AM

The really short version is that the pscyho-physical phenomenon Euro-Western culture labels “blue” almost certainly existed to ancient Greeks, but their socio-linguistic relationship to it was probably different enough from that of Euro-Western culture that… science journalism will almost certainly get it wrong.

3

Skyler

Science journalism is pretty awful

everytime i read a physics or chemistry article i usually cringe

BESW

There are problems with sensationalism in contemporary scientific journalism, and there are... let's say shortcomings... within Euro-American scientific epistemology itself, especially when applied outside its cultural sphere.

Skyler

Quite frankly, almost everything sucks, and you are better just glancing the main article, looking at the citations and first hand sources, and interpretting yourself if you can

The Oracle

3:45 AM

1

Q: Are questions about the exact same game mechanism, but across different editions of the game considered duplicates?

As a new(ish) member of this SE, I'm curious of of the duplicate policy as it applies to different games and different editions of games. I've been thinking about asking a question based on my Dragonborn getting an extra attack and if he could switch between his breath attack and his weapon attac...

Ben

9:05 AM

What's "5" in dwarfish?

BESW

9:28 AM

Miniman

10:06 AM

goldgoldgoldgoldgold

2

BESW

"Better than the elf did."

Urist McDorf

Reminds me of the 4e comic (which was amazing) for some reason.

Skyler

@Miniman i just if envisioned this was actually a counting system, like morse code for numbers goldgoldgoldgold_goldgoldgoldgoldgoldgold_goldgold for 462

nitsua60

12:59 PM

0

Q: What character levels to give a comedy relief modron NPC ally, party is around L9

This NPC is known as the "rules bot". It's a rogue Duodrone modron (MM 224) whoes alignment has changed to lawful good. Its intelligence is 8 rather than the 6 of a normal Duodrone. It was originally working in a library in the main city, reading people the rules. It's been in the library for ab...

dnd-5e npc

I feel like this one needs twelve answers, each wiki, each presenting the best argument for one class. (Actually, the question needs closure and/or more focus, but it'd be fun to see the other.)

Swashbuckler bard: obvious choice for making rules-lawyery quips during combat.

Ranger: easiest for you, because you just make it the same level as the party and you'll know its underpowered.

Paladin: 'cause of the way they drone on. [/rimshot]

@Miniman when you've got a moment, I'd love to hear your thoughts on some feats. (And anyone else, but I know miniman enjoys these 5e crunchy conversations. Or, at least, 'e tolerates them quite graciously.)

Shalvenay

hey there @nitsua60

nitsua60

To recap, We've a Rogue (Swashbuckler)3/Fighter (Battlemaster, archery style) 7 with the Sharpshooter feat. Stats are 8/20/12/10/14/14. Proficient/Expertised in acrobatics, athletics, perception, performance (exp), persuasion (exp), stealth, survival.
General concept: rain hellfire from above/595' away; use some combination of fancy footwork, cunning action, and/or parry to get out of melee if it ever occurs.

Coming up on an ASI that I don't really need (ftr8), and looking into feats.

Lucky's always good, changing a miss to a hit is huge when damage is 1d8+18. (Or more, depending if I ever choose to expend some of the magical ammo I've accrued.)

Originally I'd thought Martial Adept, but another superiority die's a little "meh." As for maneuvers known I've got goading, parry, precision. Is distracting or menacing worth it? OTOH, in a little bit I'll be bumping the dice, so that also argues for acquiring a fifth.

I was tinkering last night with the idea of Magic Initiate, if there were a decent L1 concentration buff (or even cantrip?), as I rarely take much damage. Our only possible buffer is a tanky cleric, who tends to prefer concentration for things like banishment or spirit guardians.

Observant would bump my passive perception to 22....

Mage Slayer's second bullet, since I tend to take out casters at range, but the other two bullets are largely wasted....

Athlete because I often go prone after shooting to present a small target (if we've got space for me to be far enough away not to fear melee coming up to me.)

Defensive duelist for those times I am caught in melee? (My GM gets amusedly-frustrated at how rarely he actually does damage to me, so it'dbe meta-fun to ratchet that up a bit.)

Miniman

1:27 PM

@nitsua60 Mage Armor is a solid choice for a Dex-based char - bump your AC up by 1.

nitsua60

If spell-route I was kinda-hoping something that benefit others. I get a lot of combat-spotlight as is.

I mean, it's not an unreasonable amount--the raging barbarian with a giantslaying axe does absurd damage and takes almost none also, and there's another battlemaster with sentinel and PAM locking down the scrum....

But I feel like the wizard and cleric feel a little overshadowed. Based on comments they make about only being able to do 2d8 or 2d10 damage.

BESW

Is there a way to set them up to feel more effective?

Miniman

Crossbow Expert lets you use your bow even if someone makes it into melee with you, but a whole feat for that is a bit much.

nitsua60

(But they're amazing, because fireball and banishment and hypnotic pattern and animate objects have basically sniped entire huge combats.)

@BESW That's what I'm wondering.

Miniman

@nitsua60 There's not much you can do about that - most buffs are a lot better for martials than casters.

Shalvenay

1:31 PM

@nitsua60 what cantrips are they taking?

BESW

In 3.5 I'd look for ways to make my targets more vulnerable to the casters' common tricks.

nitsua60

I was even considering a one-level Cl dip to try to shoulder a little of the "healing responsibility" so the cleric can feel freer to get into melee, but having fifteen potions of healing in a pack seems just as good.

BESW

(Inflict conditions that impose penalties to a common caster attack save?)

nitsua60

@BESW Yeah, pondering....

Bane, I guess?

BESW

I dunno 5e so can't really help with specifics.

Miniman

1:33 PM

@nitsua60 It's about all there is.

nitsua60

Actually, that could be pretty nice.

BESW

I'm thinking, like, if knocking them prone inflicts disadvantage on Dex rolls so the wizard can fireball for full damage more effectively.

nitsua60

@BESW That sort of stuff is already happening some, as the barbarian just goes grazy knocking things down all the time.

But bane is a CHA save, and their spells are generally DEX/CON/WIS saves, so it's nice to diversify a bit.

BESW

My group tended to synergise during chargen.

Miniman

@BESW I was looking at that - problem is, his spell save DCs aren't going to keep anything under a condition..

BESW

1:36 PM

Shirley there are feats to tack conditions onto ranged attacks?

Miniman

@BESW Lol, no.

Feats are a pale shadow of their former selves.

BESW

[sad]

nitsua60

@Miniman Not quite sure I'm following: you mean because my (Cha) DC of 14 just isn't going to land often enough?

Miniman

@nitsua60 Most spells that put a condition on something give them a save straight away and then again every round.

@nitsua60 What about Hex? It's a nice boost to your damage, and disadvantage on Str/Dex checks helps stop creatures from breaking out of all kinds of spells that your casters may or may not have.

Also, no saving throw.

BESW

> Nailed to the floor. If you succeed with style while attacking with arrows, you can reduce the stress inflicted by 1 to place the boost pinned down on your target.

nitsua60

1:38 PM

Except remember that with Magic Initiate I'm only going to have 1 L1 spell, so bane woudl be it, which has no continuing save.

@Miniman Hex... is an interesting thought. [flips pages]

We've a warlock, but she's been largely absent the last few months.

Miniman

@nitsua60 Helps keep enemies in Web, Evard's Black Tentacles, Bigby's Hand, etc.

Shalvenay

did her patron drag her off or something? :P

nitsua60

@BESW our characters were chosen to synergize at the beginning, but in the last few sessions I've heard increasing grumbling about feeling useless in combat from wizard and cleric.

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 which makes me wonder what cantrips they took, because their damage cantrips should still be relevant as they scale with char level

nitsua60

(And, again--they're actually amazingly-effective, letting us tackle enemies one at a time, even!)

BESW

1:41 PM

> Bigsy's Copyright-Friendly Hand. You can use Will instead of Physique when making Overcome actions, and you can perform them up to two zones away as if you were in that zone.

Miniman

@Shalvenay The thing is, cantrips don't compare well to the kind of twinked builds the martials in his party are using.

nitsua60

I mean, there's chill touch and sacred flame, don't remember much about other ones.

Shalvenay

@Miniman that is probably true...

nitsua60

Yeah--the PAM also has GWF, so we're both doing things like 30+ expected damage per round. Barbarian's not far behind, esp. as she keeps proning giants and then those two get advantaged attacks.

brb

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 PAM?

nitsua60

1:43 PM

non-stick spray =)

(polearm master)

Shalvenay

(ah)

BESW

> Made sense on paper. You have wpn:6 when attacking with weapons longer than you are tall, but can be compelled for all the awkwardness such weapons entail.

> Dual Wield. When your unmodified attack roll is exactly +2 or -2, you may re-roll or gain wpn:2 on the attack.

> LITTLE BUG NOW YOU GO SQUISH! You get +3 instead of +2 when invoking aspects representing a prone opponent.

nitsua60

Hmm... hex vs. bane, what to do....

Shalvenay

1:58 PM

hey there @ObliviousSage

nitsua60

Oh, gosh, hex is a bonus action. That might seal it, not having to give up two attacks (soon to be three) during the first turn of combat.

Oblivious Sage

@Shalvenay Mornin'

Shalvenay

how're things going?

nitsua60

OTOH, Lucky can convert misses to hits, at ~25 dmg per....

Well, thanks for the brainstorming--I've got ideas now to bring to the table-discussion. (@Miniman @Shalvenay @BESW)

Oblivious Sage

Still waking up, but it's a weekend and I have Girl Scout cookies and microwaveable pancakes for breakfast, so things are looking good so far.

Shalvenay

2:02 PM

OK here, albeit somewhat bored. also, could use some terrain-gen and map-tracking tools

(as I finally think I have a workable basis for a campaign world)

Oblivious Sage

Sorry, all I have on that front is MapTool and a buddy who really enjoys drawing maps.

Shalvenay

ah

I was actually wondering if something GIS-like might be useful, or rather...overkill

Oblivious Sage

Mapping is never overkill until you're using custom tiles in Google Maps.

Shalvenay

@ObliviousSage hahaha. well, I'd say that a GIS system is about at that level :P

also, what is the term for followers of Talona?

BESW

2:23 PM

Talonatics, obviously.

Miniman

@Shalvenay Jerks?

Shalvenay

@Miniman haha :P

BESW

[sound of derisive spitting]

Miniman

@Shalvenay But yeah, I have no idea. I've killed a few, but they just referred to themselves as priests/followers of Talona.

BESW

I presume "Talons" is too obvious.

Shalvenay

2:26 PM

I'm leaning towards "Talonites" or "Talonians" myself

BESW

...Indexes.

Shalvenay

and now I need a dang thesarus -- looking for a more sinister-sounding synonym for "spirit" that also starts with an S

nitsua60

@Shalvenay knacks (with suitable s/Sharona/Talona, of course)

@Shalvenay spectre

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 aah, that'll work I think :)

nitsua60

TIL: the flag of Rohan ripping free of the pole outside the hall and blowing off in the wind (movie, obviously): unscripted "blooper."

Shalvenay

3:43 PM

btw, are there any Barbarian archetypes other than those in the PHB? (don't have a SCAG to look in)

Shalvenay

4:20 PM

hey @BlackVegetable

BlackVegetable

@Shalvenay Why hello!

Shalvenay

how're things going?

BlackVegetable

Pretty well, I suppose. My daughter is sick so I'm staying home with her instead of attending church this morning.

Shalvenay

aww :/

BlackVegetable

Eh, she isn't that bad off -- we just don't want to infect others.

How are you?

Shalvenay

4:23 PM

alright here, working on sort of a class prevalence guide for the races in my world

BlackVegetable

Prevalence?

Shalvenay

as in -- some races are more commonly seen paired with some classes/archetypes than others

it's not a hard interlock by any means, and there are a few surprises mixed in as well ;)

BlackVegetable

Oh, ok. I undesrstand now.

Shalvenay

still need to map it, annoyingly enough, though

BlackVegetable

What is the size of classes x races?

Shalvenay

4:36 PM

classes are from the 5e PHB, only 4 races tho (d'born, two flavors of elves, and orcs)

BlackVegetable

PHB is some kind of official book?

Shalvenay

PHB = Players Handbook :)

BlackVegetable

Ah. My D&D knowledge is mostly limited to Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, and Neverwinter Nights 1 & 2.

Shalvenay

ah :p

BlackVegetable

I was too cheap to buy the game manuals as a kid so I wrote my own RPG system from scratch instead.

It... resembled a video-game made paper much more than a storytelling device.

Shalvenay

4:39 PM

I prefer to stay out of the waters of hardcore system-design

(makes it somewhat easier to focus on the worldbuilding that tends to be my main concern without having it get tangled up with matters of system balance, etal)

BlackVegetable

Yeah, I was young and did only a mediocre job at balance.

And a terrible job at everything else.

BlackVegetable

5:00 PM

Alright, just reorganized my weapons list and added a couple more.

Now they are at least categorized by type.

nitsua60

5:51 PM

@Shalvenay SCAG has a Path of the Battlerager (think Pwent from R.A.Salvatore--as written it's restricted to dwarves, though there's a note that the restriction might only apply to FR-based campaigns) and some augmenting of the Totem Warrior (Elk and Tiger spirits).

@BlackVegetable That would be 12 classes, and if Shalvey's also zooming in to archetype level, we're looking at more than 30, maybe 40, options along that axis.

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 I'm only partially zooming into archetype level here

nitsua60

@Shalvenay Three more primal paths in UA. I'm not sure I've even read them yet, certainly can't comment.

SevenSidedDie

6:21 PM

@Shalvenay shade?

BlackVegetable

7:05 PM

@SevenSidedDie That's good. There's also "shadow" I suppose.

SevenSidedDie

@BlackVegetable I confess to getting that usage mostly from high school studies of Hamlet.

BlackVegetable

@SevenSidedDie I think I've known that usage for a while, but the most recent/common usage is probably from Dragon Age.

SevenSidedDie

@BlackVegetable That's a game buried deep in my “to play one day” pile.

BlackVegetable

@SevenSidedDie It is quite good. I buy fewer and fewer new games these days, as I can replay old ones with higher difficulty settings/mods/homemade handicaps for a long time. Eventually I'll reach a point where I will never buy a new game and just continually cycle through the old ones.

SevenSidedDie

@BlackVegetable I'm kind of the opposite. My video game playing motivations result in mostly playing for the experience rather than challenge, and rarely completing a game. When I try to replay a game I usually get partway and then fade away from it (I've tried to replay Secret of Mana dozens of times). Consequence: always on the lookout for that next game to capture my imagination.

BlackVegetable

7:14 PM

Heh, my memory also isn't great. So replaying an old game is often 40% a completely new experience anyway.

"40% a completely <X>"... really BlackVegetable? Bleh.

SevenSidedDie

(You'd think modding would provide that fresh experience, but what actually seems to happen is that I mod the heck out of a game to start with instead of using mods to refresh the experience, and trying to do it the other way around doesn't do it for me, somehow. I've tried to pick up Oblivion a few times since I first fell in love with it, but it's never quite as gripping.)

@BlackVegetable Made sense to me. :) These parts here are a completely new, and they comprise 40% of the whole…

BlackVegetable

I got hung up on the auto-scaling levels of the Skyrim series, and never went back.

On a different note, while I have your attention...

I am not sure I'm doing the "fronts" correctly in DW.

SevenSidedDie

@BlackVegetable Oddly enough, Skyrim tried to fix auto-scaling compared to Oblivion, and it did it in a way that worked for me enough that unlike for Oblivion, I never modded out the scaling.

@BlackVegetable I suck at Fronts, but I still might be able to help!

BlackVegetable

@SevenSidedDie I get the games confused. I meant Oblivion.

Well, I had a largely political threat as the main front, with a secondary one of a resurrected soldier that died on top of an ancient geothermal source of power (as described by our Bard!)

SevenSidedDie

@BlackVegetable Oh yeah. Oblivion's scaling was horrible. I installed Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul really early on to deal with it.

BlackVegetable

7:19 PM

But the party advances time very slowly and seems to be enjoying going deep into something that is basically stalling the threats but not resolving them either.

But the party is having so much fun going in this direction, that I'm not sure I care too much about the fronts being rigid.

Are the fronts there to serve the party, or the party there to serve the fronts?

SevenSidedDie

Sounds like they're working okay then. Fronts are primarily a tool to make sure that there's a larger context for the action, and to ensure that you have a ready supply of material to bring to bear within any session where there's a danger of running out of GM ideas. If they're giving you world structure and sources of GM move content, they're working.

BlackVegetable

Ah, good. I was worried I'd run into some unexpected consequence of not following the fronts as explicitly as I thought I needed to later in the campaign.

But things seem to be going very well as is then.

I've apparently introduced content from Dr. Who without meaning to.

Something about Weeping Angels or somesuch? Gargoyles that only move while you're not looking at them.

SevenSidedDie

If it feels like the Fronts are progressing slowly, that's okay. The story is just revealing itself to be slower unfolding than predicted, and we GMs play to find out what happens. If it feels like that becomes so slow that a Front event should happen, then follow that truth though, and inject a sign of it at some point. Remember that GM moves don't have to directly touch on the player move that triggered them.

kviiri

I guess that idea is way older than Dr. Who but the best known implementation is from Dr. Who, yup.

SevenSidedDie

@BlackVegetable Cool. :D Yeah, I find that in Dungeon World, I end up adding in pop culture and group-culture stuff more than in other games. Something about the way improv works, I suspect.

BlackVegetable

7:24 PM

@SevenSidedDie Nah, the party just makes an entire day stretch because they get into deep conversations with NPCs attempting to persuade and avoid combat to a funny extent.

In other words, actions that progress in real-time, not like travelling long distanes.

distances

kviiri

Today in our round-robin GM DnD game, our main GM was playing as a party member for the first time. His very detailed PC was killed at the end of a tense combat - and he switched control to an apprentice wizard NPC we (or at least I) thought would be waning in importance. What a tweeest!

BlackVegetable

The only real downside I've noticed thus far is that they're pinned down to a particular town because they're trying to heal a debility on the Cleric who exhausted herself saving their lives.

kviiri

(They had planned this twist in advance with the first sub-GM, of course)

SevenSidedDie

@BlackVegetable Right. Yes, that's something else I notice about Dungeon World: unless I make a distinct effort to vary the “zoom level” regarding time, things tend to progress at a very small scale. On the plus side, that means you get a lot of play time out of ideas and material. On the down side, I find that adding timescale variation improves the feel of a game.

BlackVegetable

@kviiri That's pretty neat. Was the death itself planned or just poor dice rolls?

SevenSidedDie

7:28 PM

I'm going to be tackling that soon in my campaign. They've been exploring this dungeon for five sessions, because that's just how they're approaching it. (Lots of tooling around with things and distractions that don't get them deeper into the dungeon, and time dealing with the consequences of misses.) Soon as they're out of the dungeon, I'm going to focus on GM moves that advance time and travel distance, if I can.

BlackVegetable

@SevenSidedDie What would be an example of one such move?

SevenSidedDie

@kviiri Neat! I like it when games go in unexpected directions.

@BlackVegetable They're on a small island right now. I might present an opportunity for one of the characters, involving a ship or boat that can get them off the island (back to their employer). Looking to me to see what happens, I might show signs of a danger that manifests after many days and miles of sea travel. Perhaps even, “as you sail into port, you see…”

kviiri

@BlackVegetable Planned and plot-driven, no rolls involved really. The fight itself was done by then. We were defending this ancient archive from an army of hobgoblins and had defeated their first assault wave, giving the people working there the time to teleport away with the most important literary treasures. The bulk of the invaders were still coming so we were going to retreat to the portal ourselves as well, but the villain got a sneak attack on the PC.

BlackVegetable

@kviiri Ah, neat! However, I always read hobgoblins as HOBO-goblins the first pass through.

kviiri

They were after a treasure map in the archive, of which my PC had made a fabrication of (with the X in the wrong place, of course). The villain let the rest of us walk off in exchange of the forged version.

BlackVegetable

7:32 PM

@kviiri Hopefully the "X" was in the center of a trap!

kviiri

@BlackVegetable Too bad I didn't have the time to arrange one.

The main villain of the campaign is basically Voldemort - an insanely powerful wizard with magocratic ambitions that a previous adventurer party (called "Order of the Swan") once slew, but who has a bunch of phylacteries left behind. We agreed upon this as the "frame story" because it lends itself well to being GM'd round-robin - each sub-campaign features the quest for a single phylactery.

@SevenSidedDie Thanks for the quick answer by the way! Was like I expected, but just wanted to be sure ;)

(regarding rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/95175/… for future diggers of chat logs)

nitsua60

@SevenSidedDie That's something I need real work/practice on: my main DW campaign seems (to me) just to drag and drag and drag. But the players are happy, so clearly it's a matter of me doing a good job of populating one zoom level, but not signaling/moving to-and-fro/populating other zoom levels in ways that catch their interest.

kviiri

@SevenSidedDie My boss is an insanely admirable RPG player and he had similar points about timescales. He said his campaigns have featured downtime of months or even years between adventures. It sounds like a really swell idea - the players get to see the long-term effects of their adventures and the power progression from a young, eager novice hero to a sagely guru of adventuring arts feels more natural to many than going from zero to hero to demigod in two months of non-stop adventuring.

SevenSidedDie

@kviiri Welcome!

nitsua60

VtC shopping. Also, jealous of said cabin.

SevenSidedDie

7:48 PM

@nitsua60 I've come to the conclusion that in DW it's okay to let things stay at one zoom level, but it's better to offer opportunities to jump around zoom levels, and come back to places. Especially in my current game that aims to emulate JRPGs, moving around the map will be necessary to create that epic-adventure feel.

nitsua60

"JRPG"?

kviiri

@nitsua60 "Japanese RPG", the video game genre of Final Fantasy, Chrono Trigger etc.

SevenSidedDie

@nitsua60 Yep. I don't have a better name for it, but I started with “Final Fantasy–inspired Dungeon World”. I'm also drawing heavily on Secret of Mana.

nitsua60

Ahh... Thanks.

kviiri

@nitsua60 Cabin jealousy is all too familiar for me :( you have my vote

nitsua60

7:50 PM

Now I've got to ask: when one says "Final Fantasy," does one mean the franchise, or the 8-bit NES game that I replay almost-yearly?

SevenSidedDie

The motive is that I had a whack-on-the-head perspective shift recently talking to one of the group. This “default fantasy” thing that we associate with D&D (and which DW aims to emulate), is a generationally-specific concept of fantasy. When she joined the group she was keen on fantasy roleplay, and then very confused about why it was completely unlike all fantasy media she'd ever consumed before.

kviiri

@nitsua60 I meant the entire franchise, but the NES game is pretty similar to the rest of them I believe. Except it's a bit closer to Western-style CRPGs since you get to choose your party layout yourself, don't you?

SevenSidedDie

@nitsua60 Both-ish. My main FF experience is with FF7, but I've played bits of early 8-bit FFs.

@kviiri The later installments are rather different. Similar gameplay, but much more focus on the character dramas folded around the level-and-grind gameplay.

kviiri

I've played the NES Final Fantasies for a bit, and then mainly IX and X. I think X was the first video games I played with what could be called a serious dramatic plot. (yes, I played IX after X)

SevenSidedDie

@kviiri They have no meaningful order except publishing order, so that's not odd. :)

kviiri

7:53 PM

Yep.

SevenSidedDie

Except a couple that do, but I've lost track of which those are.

kviiri

Oh, I played FF-X2 too, now that you mentioned that.

nitsua60

Stupid 5e question: Aasimar gain light as a racial cantrip, and it specifies that "Charisma is your spellcasting ability for it." How could that possibly matter? There're no rolls associated with light, right? Is there something that keys off of the ability to cast a spell with a specific ability?

kviiri

That was a very weird game. Very ambitious in a way, but wrapped up in a cheerful layer of GRRL POWAH that contrasts weirdly with the angsty and borderline macabre emotional content of FFX.

BlackVegetable

I have a policy that FF-X2 cannot be played in my home. Ever.

kviiri

7:56 PM

@nitsua60 Light does have that clause that the opponent must survive a save to not be affected if you try to use light on them.

Maybe it means that the saving throw DC is calculated from charisma as opposed to whatever is normally your Spell Save DC's ability?

@BlackVegetable Heh, not a bad policy.

BlackVegetable

@kviiri It's probably the only offense that would elicit violence from me other than the threat of imminent violence to me or my family.

I uh... feel pretty strongly about it.

I should be quiet now.

kviiri

I think they did a lot of things right with it, but I can certainly see why people'd hate it.

BlackVegetable

It supported the capability of being turned off when you remove a power source from the PS2. That was my favorite feature.

kviiri

Introducing sequelitis to FF franchise and all.

nitsua60

@kviiri Oh, you mean the second of two paragraphs, which clearly outlines making a save against light, for which the caster would need a DC, for which there must be a spellcasting ability specified?

[facepalm]

kviiri

8:00 PM

@nitsua60 Yep.

nitsua60

(In my defense, I suspected the question was stupid from the start.)

kviiri

Hey, I'm the rules master for our DnD table. I do this stuff all the time :)

SevenSidedDie

@nitsua60 *pats* And to be fair, I suspect that regardless of what spell is involved, for design reasons they'd be compelled to indicate what a racial spellcaster's casting stat is.

nitsua60

I'm one of two for ours... feeling shame for not knowing light like the back of my hand!

SevenSidedDie

That could easily result in a perplexing “… but there's no need…” situation at some point.

nitsua60

8:01 PM

@SevenSidedDie Yeah, it certainly would be sound to have a design policy: "if you give a person a spell, index it to an ability even if it seems like it couldn't possibly matter."

kviiri

That's a valid point too. I can picture there being situations where you'd, for example, need to surpass an ability roll to be able to cast, for example due to a monster's special ability.

Hey, any Fate masters around? I have a question that's not very Stack-appropriate I guess.

SevenSidedDie

Aside if anyone is curious, my initial short brainstorming document for Final Fantasy–inspired Dungeon World is in a google doc.

3

@kviiri BESW and Doppelgreener are two resident experts who're often in chat, but they won't be awake for a bit yet I believe. You could @ them though for when they drop by.

I've got enough Fate knowledge and experience under my belt to be dangerous, but I don't play it much anymore.

kviiri

I have never played nor mastered a game of Fate, nor have any of my role-playing friends. I want to introduce the game to our scene to see if it sticks. To go somewhere different I've cast my eye on Venture City's superheroes, but I'm unsure if the added mechanics complicate the game too much for first-timers. Opinions?

@BESW thoughts on that ^?

SevenSidedDie

@kviiri Hm, yeah. That's going to be very dependent on your group, but in ways that are beyond me to tease out and make recommendations based on.

kviiri

@SevenSidedDie I see what you mean :) probably the "correct" answer would require some degree of clairvoyance.

SevenSidedDie

8:09 PM

^^^^ Calling Fate experts /cc @BESW @doppelgreener

@kviiri Not necessarily clairvoyance; asking the right questions about your group can go a long way. Finding the right questions would take more hands-on and up-to-date experience than I can currently draw on though!

kviiri

@SevenSidedDie Yeah, I meant with the information I've already provided. The hard bit is that I don't know all the details myself either - I've got approximately 15 people I play RPGs with varying frequency and some are very new to the hobby. Which people I get to join the Fate experiment might have a big impact on this.

nitsua60

@SevenSidedDie IIRC greener's UK-based now, which means it's approaching 8pm local. (I suppose it's still possible they're about to wake--I don't know them that well!)

SevenSidedDie

@kviiri True. Also something that could probably be figured out with a good conversation with someone elbows-deep in Fate lately though.

@nitsua60 Oh, is that so! Did he relocate, or is he on a trip?

nitsua60

Again, I may be speaking out of turn, but I believe it's at least for the year.

[rummages]

@SevenSidedDie Maybe not a year, but definitely a resident of London.

SevenSidedDie

@nitsua60 Ah, with work, but also for personal moving goals. So possible for quite a while.

kviiri

8:42 PM

RPGs seem to be undergoing some sort of boom in my social bubble.

SevenSidedDie

@kviiri Neat. How's that manifesting?

kviiri

@SevenSidedDie Most of my RPG pals are fellow CS students at the university. With everyone fairly excited about our current DnD 5e game, lots of friends have gotten curious and now we sort of agreed to GM for a newbie party consisting of old friends but new role-players...

...meanwhile, at our office, my boss (who is also a generally well-liked and outspoken guy) and I have been discussing RPGs in the breakroom enough for my coworkers to have gotten interested as well, and now we're planning an after-hours RPG night...

...and our apartment building had a resident party earlier this week, and one of the hosts is also an avid role-player (he's actually in my DnD party) and we discussed RPGs enough to gather the interest of enough people that we're now considering starting a party for our neighbors.

SevenSidedDie

Wow, booming in three directions!

Talking about D&D at a party is actually how I met my wife, but I've never experienced anything quite like that.

kviiri

@SevenSidedDie That's sweet! My girlfriend would actually be the fourth direction - I've taken her to some RPG events with me but she'd like to try DnD specifically. She also has less role-playing friends than I do, and is generally fairly averse to the idea of being shoehorned into games on the virtue of being my SO, which makes it trickier to find the opportunity to play with her.

SevenSidedDie

9:09 PM

@kviiri Have you considered “onesies” with her — that is, one-GM-one-player games? I've never got it to work (we always have other priorities when we finally get couples time, especially now we're parents), but it seems to be a fairly popular arrangement for couples who enjoy RPGs.

kviiri

@SevenSidedDie I have never tried them, but indeed I have - but she wants the full package with a proper party :)

SevenSidedDie

@kviiri Oh, fair enough then. It sounds like you'll soon have a very large pool of players to consider inviting to a smaller game that includes her though. :D

kviiri

@SevenSidedDie Yep! The neighbors are a particularly promising subset because they're about as familiar to her as they are to me - as opposed to bringing her as a stranger to a party composed of my friends.

The Oracle

0

Q: Can we have smallcaps?

So, fake smallcaps are bad, and SE doesn't have real ones. Do we want real ones? I assume the increased page lag would be comparable to the overhead increase we got when we implemented MathJax (or less than that). Also it would take the dev team time to implement, which they could spend on oth...

feature-request formatting

BESW

9:24 PM

On using the Robo RPG for other things: https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?798564-Fate-Atomic-Robo-Is-it-just-me-or-can-this-thing-run-Star-Trek-or-something-like-it-out-of-the-box

Tweeted by EvilHatOfficial on February 19, 2017 at 7:16 PM

@kviiri Let me sit on that for a bit. cc @trogdor.

trogdor

hmm?

BESW

@trogdor Thread.

trogdor

hmm

I have not played that before

doppelgreener

I haven't played Venture City Stories either.

trogdor

so I have no idea how much more "complicated" it is than normal Fate Core

I also don't know how fast a set of learners Kviiri's group is

I would say though, it seems cool, and it may be worth a shot to try out as a first Fate system

doppelgreener

9:34 PM

A friend of mine's recommended a certain rite of passage for introducing a group to Fate (including when nobody's played it before): for the first game, use just aspects and fate points. the fate points can be used to declare a story detail or make compels. There's no skills, no rolling of dice, and as a result no invocation either (since invocations modify rolls).

trogdor

I mean,.... Evil Hat usually does a good job of teaching Fate for the first time in just about any or possibly all of the released material they have, if not just for all the ones I have taken a look at, then for all of it

BESW

It's in the SRD.

trogdor

@doppelgreener so just role play add lib, aspects, and Fate Points?

doppelgreener

@trogdor Yes.

BESW

@kviiri Why is Venture City attractive to you/your group as an introduction to Fate?

trogdor

9:35 PM

@doppelgreener cool

doppelgreener

They recommend this because aspects and fate points and compels are the core of the system, and the thing that defines it most strongly compared to other RPGs. Most groups, when starting the game, almost entirely use rolls and skills and stunts to resolve issues because of teaching from other games, so it sort of leads people astray into a weird mode of play.

BESW

@GarrettRooney Hi!

kviiri

@BESW Because we like superheroes and haven't role-played them before, mostly.

doppelgreener

Also, avoid the Conflict rules, even if you're getting into a fight. The mechanical Conflict framework is time consuming and often not actually the most exciting way to resolve a narrative conflict.

What I'm recommending is something I don't have personal experience with (but it sounds like a really good way to learn the game), however said friend's experienced it working well.

kviiri

@doppelgreener Well it sounds sensible to me, at least.

Garrett Rooney

9:40 PM

@BESW Hello there.

doppelgreener

Both BESW's group and my group started off the game with a session that was almost entirely a conflict resolved by skill rolls.

Seems like that exact scenario is actually pretty common.

trogdor

yeah, your suggestion sounds pretty great honestly

doppelgreener

For our group it was the totally wrong way to try it out -- we had more fun in subsequent sessions when we weren't focused on fighting, because that's what D&D's about, but we can have more interesting stories without it.

BESW

@kviiri I wouldn't necessarily go as extreme as Greener, but you don't need the extra bits of Venture City to play superheroes. In fact, I think it might get in the way of understanding just how awesome Fate is: unlike systems like D&D, Fate doesn't need any extra dedicated subsystems to model... pretty much anything. They can be fun to add, but aren't needed.

trogdor

that being said, so far Venture doesn't really look more confusing than Fate Core itself

doppelgreener

9:42 PM

@BESW I agree with that.

trogdor

it just has stuff added in

course, maybe that fits the possible definition of confusing

BESW

With or without Greener's ideas, I'd suggest starting in Fate Core or Fate Accelerated. You can add complexity as you go if the group feels it's needed.

@GarrettRooney What's new?

kviiri

@BESW That's also something I considered asking about, but you read my mind about it :) Another idea I had was trying Fate Accelerated + Venture City to drop some complexity that way, but then again the complexity in skills and all is of the kind people are already familiar with from DnD.

BESW

I like using Fate Accelerated when introducing people to RPGs using Fate, and when showing people how different Fate is from D&D.

Garrett Rooney

@BESW Just killing time. Stuck in a hotel room with a sick kid on vacation, so I figured why not answer some stackexchange questions ;-)

BESW

9:46 PM

But if I'm trying to ease someone into Fate from D&D, Core is probably better because it has more superficial similarities.

(Core skills define "what are you good at doing?" while Accelerated approaches as "how are you good at doing things?" I consider approaches to be more "TV logic," where the Forceful guy can scare someone or knock down a door equally well and the Clever person can do a DNA test and hack a computer.)

@GarrettRooney Sounds reasonable! I hope the kid gets better soon.

@kviiri Are you expecting everyone to read the material, or will you be teaching it to them?

kviiri

@BESW ...I hope the former but experience has taught me to do the latter.

BESW

Folks are probably more likely to read Accelerated, just because it's so much shorter.

Core's got all the system design philosophy.

Are you concerned that a game being really different from D&D will make it difficult/offputting?

kviiri

Slightly. Some potential players have only DnD experience.

BESW

Going for a game style you've never played before, like superheroes, will help.

I've had some success using a very quick roll-for-shoes session as a palate cleanser between systems, to remind people that RPGs aren't all the same and clean out some of our system-specific ideas about how to play.

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