TRPG General Chat - 2014-08-12 (page 2 of 3)

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Joshua Aslan Smith

4:01 PM

@waxeagle caught up on d20monkey

Dont know how I feel about sams GM hat

@JoshuaAslanSmith its kinda kooky

Joshua Aslan Smith

but I like the contest style module storyline

it's very cool. And knowing there is a Karthun KS in the nearish future has me quite excited

Joshua Aslan Smith

lol

(I'm a mild KS addict)

Joshua Aslan Smith

4:06 PM

kickstarter?

Im a KS pessimist but thats more on the video game side

yeah

@JoshuaAslanSmith completely understandable, they never deliver on time.

I've only backed 2 so far, and one was a year late, the other one...not even sure, they update occasionally...

Joshua Aslan Smith

my first ever kickstarter was for a gamification website for workouts that was supposed to be zombie survival

RunZombies! Eventually did this better and on a phone and I love that, but yeah at the time I backed it

and they were super late with the "beta" which was really an alpha

and then never ever finished it

not even a, hey we cant do this sorry

just died on the vine

most of the table top projects I've backed have been better. Fate Core was closish to on time, Kingdom (from the makers of Microscope) was one timeish. Order of the Stick got their physical rewards out close to on time, but the digital stuff is still pending (and some of the high dollar ones are still pending). Reaper's second KS looks like it will deliver on time

@JoshuaAslanSmith ouch, yeah that's bad

Joshua Aslan Smith

Ive had better succeess since

I've had pretty good luck so far. No outright failures

I actually picked up rewards for one of the ones I backed last night. Local brewery needed funds to get reopened after the fire marshal shut them down.

they offered a free pint to anyone who came in an picked their stuff up.

4:10 PM

blargh

no one understands what the Stormwind Fallacy actually claims, make misinformed statements on that basis, which frequently verge on the insulting, and I cannot seem to clearly explain what is actually claimed

Joshua Aslan Smith

hmmm where

-1

A: Does roleplaying inherently put you at a disadvantage?

The notion that you cannot simultaneously optimize and roleplay is known as the Stormwind Fallacy, that is, widely recognized (and named!) as an inaccurate statement. If anyone tells you that you cannot do both, you should ignore them. Their narrow-minded insults are not worth considering. The S...

the fact that this answer has been downvoted insults me

it reminds me that there is a substantial portion of this community that considers me no true roleplayer

Joshua Aslan Smith

hmmm are you sure its for taht reason

also maybe link this question? rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/22250/…

@JoshuaAslanSmith It's the reason stated in the comments

Joshua Aslan Smith

oh you did

let me look

4:13 PM

and I did link to that

Joshua Aslan Smith

at flamma or at Mu?

@KRyan you're definitely taking things a bit more personally than I think is prudent.

@waxeagle no, I think that I'm taking it exactly as personally as the actual words are even if the authors didn't intend that

I feel very strongly about this

"the Stormwind Fallacy is true/not-fallacious" is a statement that strongly insults me

Joshua Aslan Smith

I think Flamma isnt directly attacking you though he may be circumstantially I understand where you are coming from

you cannot disagree with it without deeply and personally insulting me

4:16 PM

@KRyan than I'll politely advise you to step away from the conversation there is nothing to be gained by continuing it.

@waxeagle no, because then I let people who I find deeply insulting confuse the issue, misinform others, and create more people who don't understand the issue and will go out continuing to insult me and everyone I've ever played with

this website can be very antagonistic to certain types of players, one of which I self-identify as

most of that is mxyzplk's fault

but it's not just that

Joshua Aslan Smith

@kryan I believe wax and I are in the same boat as you RP and optimization wise

we are 4e players

and I have worked very hard to push back against that

@JoshuaAslanSmith no, he isn't, nor really is Mu

then take it to meta

@KRyan: typo

> Maybe that was in itself his original goal, just to learn magic for magic’s sake, and then plot happened and now he has to face danger. That&rsquos; fine. But maybe instead your character will take up her father’s sword and set out to save her kidnapped little brother, and never consider wasting time in a school.

Joshua Aslan Smith

4:18 PM

I think he's saying that you run the risk of taking a well established debate and good arguments made by you and turning into a personal crusade

both of them are misunderstanding the situation, and then making statements out of ignorance that are insulting

@waxeagle useless

@KRyan then flag the comments and move on. Starting comment arguments over and over will likely lead to suspension.

@KRyan contact SE then

Joshua Aslan Smith

@kryan even if you dont win over myx or those you feel are against you, making your case in a public forum with intelligence, wit, and grace can win people on the fence or not aware of the issue

comment arguments are the wrong vehicle for this

and whining about it in chat, when you've been directed to the right outlets several times isn't going to help at all

@JoshuaAslanSmith well, then I'm just not good at that

because I have tried to explain it many, many times, with little success

@waxeagle flagging is useless, mxyzplk will just dismiss them

@waxeagle don't have the time to put together enough material to justify such a claim

Joshua Aslan Smith

4:20 PM

only if he is the reviewer

@KRyan if he dismisses them without deletion, use a custom flag talking about why

Joshua Aslan Smith

though understandably he is like 80% going to be that perrson

@KRyan gather what you have already and send it. It cannot hurt at this point.

@waxeagle I don't have any collection, just accumulated memory and experience

can't really share that

also, really, the main reason I consider Meta useless, and contacting SE useless for the same reason, is that I don't think a direct statement is going to change anyone's mind

@KRyan I'll attest directly that this is not the case

4:23 PM

I don't even know what I'd say in meta

"you're voting wrong"? "your opinions are misinformed (read: wrong)?"

clearly those are neither effective, nor even really valid

@KRyan if you want to raise concerns about mxy, go straight to SE

I'm not in a position to make those statements

@waxeagle as discussed in the past, that's unlikely

hell, for that matter, honestly

I have had dramatically fewer problems with him recently

it's been suggested that he is trying to change, and I can maybe see that

I was speaking more historically

Joshua Aslan Smith

@waxeagle Ive kickstarted 5 video game projects 1 has failed completely, 2 delivered on time and 2 were delayed.

not his opinions, of course, but how he expresses them, particularly with the diamond after his name

Joshua Aslan Smith

also 1 physical product that was delayed

4:25 PM

@KRyan aye, you're not the only one.

Joshua Aslan Smith

right

myself

wax

@JoshuaAslanSmith yeah, that sounds about right.... video games fall victim to scope creep so easily

Joshua Aslan Smith

@besw as well though I dont wanna put words in his mouth

he's more likely to actually edit his answers when I call him on insulting people

@KRyan edit histories are visible.

Joshua Aslan Smith

4:26 PM

1 of the delays was a super deep strategy game coming out next year. It looks to be superb so Im willing to wait

@waxeagle I'm not sure what your point is?

Kickstarter is weird

Joshua Aslan Smith

This is the delayed strat game I am super up for kickstarter.com/projects/jonshafer/jon-shafers-at-the-gates

it can be, yes. I've found a lot of cool stuff there

@JoshuaAslanSmith that looks cool

Joshua Aslan Smith

the other one was poor management and bad assumptions by a big company and I am annoyed that was for ascension on line kickstarter.com/projects/1965800643/ascension-online

I can't decide if I agree with C.Ross deleting those comments

they were problematic, but I'm also bothered that my objection to those comments were silenced

it massively frustrates me that I feel as though I cannot communicate my feelings and position well enough to be convincing

particularly since I strongly feel that I am right (I realize the absurdity of saying so myself)

I also feel like a lot of people have a knee-jerk reaction to the phrase "Stormwind" that is extremely biased and in a lot of cases based purely on "ew, I don't like optimizing and that's that thing optimizers use to defend their preference!"

Joshua Aslan Smith

4:36 PM

You have to make an argument that your target audience will receive and understand

I can understand your frustration, ive been through it. I once had a debate in college over whether or not enhanced interrogation techniques were legal (Winner decided by a vote by the class) I showed up in my ROTC uniform, had direct quotes from the Hague and Geneva Conventions and copies on hand. I still lost because everyone there just voted with how they felt (despite it not being the criteria they were supposed to judge on)

I wish people were more rational and able to put their ego asides but usually they cant so if you want to actually accept it and use it your advantage

I have a Pathfinder character with high dex and very high int stats (level 1). perfect for a wizard, yes? problem is: at the beginning of the adventure the group will start being stripped of all possessions - including spellbooks. and it is highly improbable that I'll find one soon. So which class would you choose? I thought about a rogue, but aren't there INT based magic classes who don't need a spellbook?

I think there is a substantial portion of the community (the wider RPG community, that is) that wants to be able to say "optimizing isn't real roleplaying" and objects strongly to anyone who claims that's an invalid statement, but at the same time don't want to be called out as being insulting and narrow-minded and One True Way-ish

@mawimawi I would choose to run away from that game immediately

Pathfinder is very poorly designed to handle the "stripped of all possessions" cliche well

Joshua Aslan Smith

@kryan right so you have to show them how they are discriminating; leverage RPG culture's at some times ridiculous drive to be inclusive

then again, I would probably run away from any Pathfinder game, since the system is poorly designed, period

KRyan: well yes, the game master meant it's some kind of "survival adventure", but everyone in the group wants to give it a try.

4:41 PM

@mawimawi yeah, Pathfinder is atrocious at survival adventure

there are systems designed for that

please at least ask him to consider using a system that actually supports the game he wants to play

Joshua Aslan Smith

@kryan do a thought experiment where you replace the word optimization with something else, show how in any other way their views and opinions would be discriminatory than show, this is what you do to optimizers.

trying to shove the D&D-shaped peg through the very-much-not-D&D-shaped hole is a really common mistake and it almost always leads to disaster

Joshua Aslan Smith

D&D and Pathfinder are not the end-all-be-all simulationist RPGs they claim to be

also

@JoshuaAslanSmith not even remotely

Joshua Aslan Smith

"THAT WAY LIES MADNESS"

4:43 PM

@mawimawi anyway, to try to answer a bit more helpfully

since presumably you don't have any control over the system used and you want to play with the group even if they're making a mistake

are you allowed to use 3.5 material at all?

...I hope my rant didn't scare you away

@KRyan no, just pathfinder rules. but every official book

Joshua Aslan Smith

id say look through PF SRD (which does have house rule and 3rd party stuff too so be careful)

I dont think anyone in here is a PF expert at all though

sorry, was afk for a few minutes. the group consists of 5 players and a gm and we play sincd about a year almost every week having lots of fun. so i really want to continue playing with them

ok thanks joshua

@JoshuaAslanSmith I have the second-highest score on the site for the system

Joshua Aslan Smith

oh sorry

4:53 PM

but a lot of that is from things tagged 3.5 and PF

I also despise it

which is an irony that amuses me

anyway

I suspect that Paizo hasn't made any bookless wizards, but let's see

(3.5 has an option to basically have your spellbook be entirely in your head)

Joshua Aslan Smith

@Kryan Im number 6 for both asking and answering Shadowrun 5e questions and Ive only played the game for 1 3 hour session

@JoshuaAslanSmith smaller/newer system, though, ne?

Joshua Aslan Smith

right, I just happened to have a few question when I built a character for that session

and then I still had a PDF copy for awhile and would do rules parsing for it

you can get so much rep on this site just doing rules parsing

true

@JoshuaAslanSmith so true, I'd estimate that's half or more of my rep

4:58 PM

can get a lot more giving generic GM advice

@KRyan also true

Joshua Aslan Smith

haha yes

or simple "talk to people" answers

Joshua Aslan Smith

my highest rated answers are one or all of the above: Same page tool, talk to the person, heres how to write NPCs like actual fictional characters

and my 3 paragraph answer system has stood me in stead

because the Rule of 3 is eternal

@mawimawi OK, so... looks like wizard is going to be rough as-is

it probably is still the most powerful option, if you can last long enough to get a spellbook

depends on just how obnoxious your DM is going to be on this

if setting up a spellbook is something that requires civilization, and you're never going to see it, it's just not going to work

(if that's the case, he should be banning or modifying the wizard class; probably worth asking)

barring that

alchemists probably have somewhat less stringent requirements for gear, and there's even a suggestion that you can use the Eschew Materials to be assumed to always have appropriate reagents as long as you have wealth sufficient for them

that seems like a pretty solid approach

alchemists are not nearly as powerful as wizards, but it might work better in this game

unfortunately, I know fairly little about the alchemist class

@mawimawi does alchemist sound like a good idea?

5:12 PM

The sorcerer isn't too bad is it? With a sorcerer you don't need a book or materials.

@Aaron it's Charisma based and has little use for Intelligence, is the problem

Oh derp

he's working with a character who has high Int and Dex

Hmm. And only official books.

I don't know why he's restricted to those ability scores; that's yet another terrible idea for this game, but by comparison to the other things going on in the game, it's minor by comparison

(this DM has some serious flaws in his understanding of what games Pathfinder is not-awful at handling)

5:14 PM

Ah!

Here it is

d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/…

oh, sweet

@mawimawi Aaron does seem to have solved your dillemma

I knew that was floating out there somewhere

...I cannot believe they consider that a 20th-level capstone

sigh

@KRyan What?

@Aaron sorcerer not lengthening his casting times when using metamagic

3.5 had that as a feat available at 9th level, and even that was absurdly expensive and late

using spell slots to power magic items is kinda nifty, though

20th level's really late for that though

5:19 PM

Most capstones suck though right?

@Aaron do they? that's pretty sad, considering how much Pathfinder encourages single-classing

sigh

I really dislike that system

Most pathfinder classes don't seem to have capstones.

All the wizard gets at level 20 is another bonus feat

@KRyan Paladin capstone

> Holy Champion (Su)

At 20th level, a paladin becomes a conduit for the power of her god. Her DR increases to 10/evil. Whenever she uses smite evil and successfully strikes an evil outsider, the outsider is also subject to a banishment, using her paladin level as the caster level (her weapon and holy symbol automatically count as objects that the subject hates). After the banishment effect and the damage from the attack is resolved, the smite immediately ends. In addition, whenever she channels positive energy or uses lay on hands to heal a creature, she heals the maximum possible amount.

ouch, that is terrible

Congratulations about 10 levels after everyone you can banish outsiders.

better than what the 3.5 paladin got, I guess?

see, this is my problem with Pathfinder

5:22 PM

The free maximized channel and lay on hands isn't too bad I guess

3.5 core was nearly as bad, but after years of development they learned and improved

the design got much better

and Paizo reverted all of that

and stands adamantly opposed to a lot of it

I like pathfinder but we use a loose interpretation of rules more often than not.

We also make ridiculously powered characters though.

Like right now I am playing a magus/wizard using a 3pp product Spheres of power. I did not take the drawbacks that require motions to cast spells so I can wield 4 swords. So my full attack is usually 1 spell in one of my swords which deals spell damage and normal weapon damage and then 4 normal sword attacks.

Did mawimawi leave?

@KRyan I found a worse capstone

5:40 PM

@Aaron don't doubt it

@KRyan I did ask the GM about playing an alchemist, and he said, that I will have a hard time finding ingredients.

@mawimawi use the Sage Sorcerer @Aaron linked

@mawimawi We found a nice alternative for you.

doesn't he need a spellbook too?

@mawimawi d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/…

5:40 PM

(gaaaah your DM does not understand the system!)

Nope

No spell book.

exactly like sorcerer but using Int

wow. that's a great find! fantastic! thank you guys, thanks a lot!

And the archtype comes from ultimate magic which is an official book so you should be able to use it.

yep. no doubt :) (rubbing my hands together grinning...)

5:42 PM

make sure you grab Eschew Materials

@KRyan Monk capstone Perfect Self

At 20th level, a monk becomes a magical creature. He is forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the monk's creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects. Additionally, the monk gains damage reduction 10/chaotic, which allows him to ignore the first 10 points of damage from any attack made by a

@Aaron oh, yeah

wow, hah

@KRyan @mawimawi Sorcerer gets it automatically.

that's more nerf than it is bonus

@Aaron oh huh

ok

DR 10/chaotic is solid enough, but being an outsider means you are subject to banishment and are very difficult to resurrect

It covers Resurrections

nonchaotic weapon or by any natural attack made by a creature that doesn't have similar damage reduction. Unlike other outsiders, the monk can still be brought back from the dead as if he were a member of his previous creature type.

Oh it didnt post my second part.

There

5:44 PM

oh, ok

still, you can be banished

and the DR's neither that large nor that difficult to overcome

still, better than 3.5 where it was /magic

IIRC

which is just absurd

Yea. Can you be banished if you are on your homeplane?

who at 20th level is dealing non-magical physical damage

@Aaron no, but I'm pretty sure non-outsiders can't be banished at all, and at 20th level, planar travel has long been a very-valid thing

@KRyan No one. Hell everyone should have at least a +1 enchanted weapon by level 5

@Mourdos but common sense is anything but

@KRyan Right. I have played very few games where we do multiple planes. It gets complicated very fast.

I forgot you might get banished when in another plane.

5:47 PM

@Metool common sense doesn't exist and insistence that it does is usually a cover for weak arguments or a desire to flat-out ignore competing points of view

the phrase has a truly tarnished history

@Aaron true

morning, @Aaron

How does one go about keeping track multiple planes in a game? I have enough difficulty keeping track of all of the cities in my game.

@Metool Mornin

Oh I have 4 silver badges.

... My train of thought apparently does not have a guiding rail today.

This was a horrid question. Shudders rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/28352/…

6:17 PM

Why am I getting a "Good answer" badge for an answer that simply quotes the manual.

@waxeagle Cause it's a good answer?

@Aaron more like it's a common question in a hot tag

It is a good answer to the question.

(Probably. Haven't seen it yet.)

25

A: Are enemy weapons and armour up for grabs as loot?

They can, sure. But the BD&D rules are quite explicit that they typically have no value. In general, Weapon and armor used by monsters are rarely in good enough condition to sell (BD&D p 42). So they can collect them, they can even use them, but no, merchants won't buy them unless they are ...

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