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8:00 PM
at the same time though its the logical and successful goal of a highly technical and trained fighting force to require less soldiers and also require professional soldiers vs. draftees
 
I served in the military, though not in a war and not in a combat position. It mainly made me think Catch 22 is a documentary.
 
I think Heinlein's problem is that he's got it backwards. He's creating a society for soldiers, on some level.
At the expense of others.
 
To be fair I think heinlein wrote all his books as thought experiments and objects for discussion or to start a discussion vs. a reaction to current events or how he thinks the world will eventually become
 
Well, his early works, anyway.
His later works seem to have been written because he was horny.
 
@JoshuaAslanSmith Well, that's kinda what I'm talking about. There's a flaw in his thought-experiment solution, which his that putting soldiers up on a pedestal or making them the sole true citizens is probably just as destructive as casting them away.
 
8:06 PM
Random contribution to discussion. And now back to work.
 
soldiers arent better people taken as a whole, but they do tend to actually vote etc. at a higher rate then the general population which in my book counts for something
 
Part of Forever Peace is that being a soldier actually does give you a number of social benefits, and it's kind of a one-week-a-month thing because they're basically "telecommuniting," but it doesn't make the burden any easier. Because Haldeman's picture of it is that the bad stuff is stuff you can't share with either civilians or very easily share it with each other.
In many ways Heinlein is cheating by having them shooting bugs.
Another way of looking at it is that I think a book about future-kinda-America fighting a kind-of-losing war against the Zerg is less germane to our political situation than a book about future-America fighting a deeply unequal war to maintain its economic supremacy over the "third world."
 
8:29 PM
So I have a level 8 character lvl 4gunslinger lvl 4 marksman. He hits at about +20. Via feats and class abilities after he levels up once more he will get an auto +14 damage on every hit at lvl 9. He also hits touch AC and shoots 5 times in one turn when using rapid shot.
Should I tone back my damage a bit or is that normal damage for a lvl 8 character?
lvl 9 I mean
 
I kinda hope my Pathfinder character dies, since I made him before I fully knew what options were available to me.
Is that bad of me? I feel kinda bad about that.
But the DM just said "what would you like to be?" and I just kinda shot from the hip because I only had a short while to decide.
 
@ProfessorCaptainLokiCaprion Step back from the stats a bit and ask yourself this: do I like and want to continue playing this character as a fictional character?
 
@ProfessorCaptainLokiCaprion lol, I've been half wishing my 4e character would just die already. been playing him for a few years and I kind of want a change.
most of the dislike is the mechanics, not the actual character though
 
@waxeagle Can you not just choose to retire them?
 
@AlexP Oh I love him as a player but that isn't the issue. I like to have a balanced party in combat. My roleplaying wont be affected by this.
 
8:35 PM
@waxeagle Sounds like a good chance for a dramatic bowing-out, either with a blaze of glory or to a house in the country.
 
@AlexP I love his personality. But a LOT of this game seems to be combat, so I'm not doing nearly as much as I thought I'd be doing.
 
@Phil if we didn't already have a lot of party flux right now, maybe
 
@ProfessorCaptainLokiCaprion Talk to you DM and see if you can re roll him or make a new character.
 
@ProfessorCaptainLokiCaprion Talk to the GM about reshuffling the abilities to make him more combat-worthy. If it's your first PF character, I think it's understandable.
 
we gracefully exited a cleric last session, the coming session should see the arrival of a new cleric and the departure of our Shaman
 
8:37 PM
@Aaron and @lisardggY are both right, maybe. I'll ask him.
My character and my wife's character are siblings, and we have a great RP rapport going. Hobbit siblings that bicker a lot over stupid things.
*Halfling, sorry
 
lol
 
... we play them like Hobbits. And the NPCs call us Hobbits, since we keep acting like Hobbits.
 
I was totally imagining a lotr moment there.
 
Xander and Eiladora Meadowpad; very Hobbity names, even!
(Distantly related to the Meadowpad Hobbit family I have in LotRO)
 
"Halfling! He said Halfling! Please don't hurt us, scary copyright lawyers!"
4
 
8:39 PM
I play an atypical gunslinger who is very quite and in tune with nature. Think of Irvine from Final Fantasy 8
I spelled that wrong again... Quiet
quite
bah
humbug
 
@ProfessorCaptainLokiCaprion ???
 
@Aaron I've had stretches like that.
 
@ProfessorCaptainLokiCaprion Do you want to play an entirely different class or just build the PC differently?
 
@AlexP Build differently, I think.
 
8:54 PM
Can you just "retrain" or whatever they're calling it these days?
 
I picked a Carnivalist, but my pet is largely useless. Plus, apparently, I can't keep stealth while scouting ahead of the group! As soon as enemies appear, everyone rolls initiative, meaning I rarely get to sneak attack.
 
@ProfessorCaptainLokiCaprion "Can't" like a numbers issue or a GM rulings issue?
 
@AlexP GM rulings, it seem!
 
crap!
I g uess your main option is to talk it out, then
 
@ProfessorCaptainLokiCaprion Have you pointed out you get stealth stuff?
He might just be forgetting
 
9:07 PM
Well, being as I'm so unfamiliar with it, I was thinking I just didn't.
 
@ProfessorCaptainLokiCaprion what system?
 
@ProfessorCaptainLokiCaprion yea you can sneak around and if you are not seen you don't even have to fight. If you have sneak attack damage that is important as well so point that out to your dm.
 
I do... as does my monkey!
My monkey lost a lot of power because he's too small to flank.
 
9:23 PM
@ProfessorCaptainLokiCaprion That's a thing?
 
@Aaron It says in the Animal Archives that only Small and larger animals can flank.
 
@ProfessorCaptainLokiCaprion Your monkey is tiny?
 
@Aaron Aren't all monkeys tiny?
I mean, my character is "small".
 
@ProfessorCaptainLokiCaprion I guess they are. I thought monkeys were a little bigger then that.
 
@Aaron I mean... it's still adorable!
Anyway! Time to drive home!
 
9:28 PM
See ya
 
10:05 PM
@Aaron That's some pretty great arting.
 
10:40 PM
[logs in to 5 inbox notifications and 155 rep] I should go to bed early more often.
 
morning
hehe
 
Even if one of the notifications is a comment from That Guy Who Cannot Tell the Difference Between Random Ideas and Supportable Theories.
 
They do often overlap
 
More often they don't.
 
No idea is ever truly random anyways
they're based on prior causes - even if you can't properly make them out
but many really good theories would seem to be "random ideas"
 
10:45 PM
He shows up in Doctor Who questions and leaves comments about notions that aren't explicitly contradicted on-screen, but which are far, far, more complicated and less justified than the answers he's commenting on.
 
before the research
haha
 
I think he see "Occam's Razor" as a dare.
 
"simplest is mostly true you say? screw you! I'll prove it to youby making up some unfalsifiable shit and use that as evidence"
which is funny for me because that's exactly when the razor works best. - i.e. when you can't prove or disprove, but have to assume something. might as well believe in what's most likely to be true (i.e. fewest assumptions etc) rather than - anything.
 
Pretty much.
One of my favourites is "But New Who never mentioned that simple justification by name (despite referring to it obliquely a half-dozen times) so we must come up with something TWELVE TIMES AS DUMB. Which is going to be hard, because Old Who was really good at being dumb."
 
I'm still not very good at being dumb - just stupid by forrest gumps mom's definition
 
11:08 PM
@Julix - Finally, I thought you'd never get on chat.
Lemme say something that I can't say in your question thread:
FOR THE LOVE OF ZOMBIES JUST REFLUFF IT WHY IS THIS SO HARD FOR PEOPLE?
Thank you >.<
 
sure, I'd be really interested to hear!
you did say that in the question thread
I had a conversation about that yesterday
 
Yeah but I said it nicer >.>
 
you ought to say it nicely even in chat
#1 rule is have fun
what ever floats your boat
there are people to whom consonance and sense are really important
 
@Julix Possibly, but if you check through the starred comments on the right Zachiel burnt through 100% of my patience earlier.
 
I will refluff freely if I have a superficial within game-world explanation
 
11:10 PM
That being said, what about refluffing doesn't make sense to you? Which part of this makes you think you're violating the game world?
 
That depends on what exactly is being refluffed
in my mind each refluff needs an answer - and there are infinite possible acceptible ones
 
@BESW - You have been overthrown from the starred comments!
 
I haven't found the zachiel one...
how do I search others?
 
Mostly you click the permalink button
But your statement is still not making sense to me. Like, let's go for the snake hair thing.
What
Precisely
Is preventing you from just saying, "And also, her hair is made of snakes."
 
I was not at all looking for mechanical answers. I have no problem implementing the hair once I get a reason why it's there in the first place
but my fantasy setting is still based on causality
it raises a shitload of questions like do you have to feed them, are they intelligent at all, what happpens when you speak with animals with them etc
it could be great fun - but it needs an ingame cause
 
11:13 PM
[Sigh]
I'm going to set up tasers all over the world.
And whenever someone objects to a refluff on grounds like that, they will be tased
And I will laugh
And feel no pity whatsoever
 
I'm not objecting to the refluffing, there's just no ingame explanation that fits the character I want to build
 
Oh like hell. Give me thirty seconds.
'Kay got it
 
 
Lyra Harpsdotter was going places in life as a closet witch in the big city before she bit off more than she could chew. Talented at blackmail, Lyra tried to coerce a city councilman only to find out that he was in the employ of an extraordinarily unhappy salamander sorcerer. The initial torture, once she was captured, was almost just an introduction; the real punishment was the serpentine curse, dredged from the lips of ancient demons.
Now she works for the salamander to pay off her debt of dishonor in the vain hope that he'll put her hair back to the way it was.
 
That's the character on that "refluffed" riding dog... ;-)
When I say an explanation for the character I want to build instead of jumping to an answer you ought to ask what's the character you want to build
she's a goblin
super smart but ugly as hell
 
11:18 PM
It's not my fault that you're giving out insufficient information. The hell do you even mean by "an in-game explanation"? Do you have any idea how often shit happens in 3.PF just because?
 
still the one word answer for what you posted is "curse" and I could fly with that
 
Those worlds are saturated with more magic than Disneyland
Sometimes freaks are just born for no reason
 
It varies a lot actually
in the system yes but it varies between settings and DMs
I haven't played that much yet (a hand full of sessions at most, all with one DM)
 
I gotta tell you, you're putting way too much effort asking how or why this should or should not be done. I mean, disguise self to try and represent something that's a native part of the character?
The snakes won't be doing anything you haven't already purchased up-front
 
see that's where our worlds differ
 
11:21 PM
It doesn't matter if they're intelligent or if they need feeding or anything else. That's flavor, they don't do anything.
 
my world gives fluff a lot of power
 
You think mine doesn't?
'Cause I'm getting pretty goddamn sick of people passing judgement on my games.
 
anything that makes sense goes even if it's against the balance if that makes any sense
I don't know your games! :D
I don't know mine either really... I only ran one module 3 times with 3 groups of random friends that never played before - all these things didn't come up at all
because they had pregenerated characters, no experience and little time
 
@Julix My advice? If someone has a cool idea, just let it happen. Don't give it any more mechanical power than it's actually got and let them do cool stuff with the fluff. It's like...okay, this character I'm playing now, Krystal
 
however people would try to interact with the environment a lot - and I remember doing that in my very first game. I wanted to skin an owlbear - my DM wouldn't even be bothered with it cause it would be just be fluff anyways...
 
11:23 PM
She's got a masterwork tool for Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, and Intimidate. It's a pack of glass cigarettes (you read that right) that doesn't run out.
 
totally what I'm doing
 
100% of its mechanical effect is +2 to those skills
 
I allowed them to try and milk poison out a random snake
etc.
 
But it also lets me sell the image of her addiction and chain smoking and poor reactions to stress.
Likewise, if someone wants, say, a sorceress with fire for hair?
What's the issue?
 
That depends... is it actually hot?
does she have some kind of fire resistance then?
 
11:25 PM
Why does she need fire resistance? Why does the fire have to do anything other than look cool?
I mean, hell, did you know that Fire Elementals don't exude any light?
Seriously, look at their entry.
 
That depends on the source of the fire
 
Made of fire, gives off not a single bit of light
 
that's why I'm asking - what kind of fire is it? :D
 
When I first made her, Brianna's hair was the result of distant genie lineage. Her great-great-great grandmother was an efreeti duchess.
And when Brianna hit puberty her auburn hair turned into fire and she started manifesting spells.
 
alright, so it's racial/magical ish
Door man says "No way that I'll let you in! Your hair would probably burn the place down!"
 
11:28 PM
@Julix I don't think there's stars by me. Most stars were thrown at me. I think they're shurikens, in fact.
 
At which point she goes, "Touch it, friend, it's fine."
 
hahaha
that's what it looked like when I searched for it
 
Random fun fact: Efreeti are SUPER ON FIRE, but their fire does no damage to anything.
 
He touches it
 
Like, they're made of fire, and yet.
They do no fire damage
And shed no light
 
11:29 PM
Is it warm then? anything at all or is it basically a permanent illusion
 
Bri's hair is warm to the touch and flickers and shimmers lambently in the light, but it does not do anything.
 
They're just aggressively rusty.
 
Likewise, your snakes do something - they do exactly what the Prehensile Hair mechanics let them do.
2
Nothing else needs to be worried about when you ask, "Can I make this character?"
 
Guess I was scarred by a DM who was too by the book or something
 
@Julix When it comes to flavor "the book" is amazingly permissive.
 
11:31 PM
her book then
:-P
 
If there's not a number or a reserved word (like paralyze) on the statement, you can get away with just about anything as long as it makes internal sense.
Like with Brianna - she didn't use ice or water spells.
 
I was told very politely that there's multiple sides to the class flavor guide or rule discussion
 
Not because she mechanically couldn't but because, c'mon, girl's fire
 
I assume yours is fluff it as you want, right?
 
@Julix There are two sides, and one of them is composed of people who need to be slapped twice a day by angry Russians.
 
11:32 PM
But you acknowledge that the other side exists, yes?
 
@Julix Not fluff as you want, but rather fluff as appropriate for the setting. If the DM tells me that this world has no, say, fey creatures, right? I might take a template whose by-the-book origins are fey and instead make it relate to celestials. But it wouldn't be appropriate for me to say that my sorcerer gets her powers from a fey ancestor
 
@Lord_Gareth Does being punched several times each meeting by an ironic russian counts?
 
Even if I use feyblooded mechanics
 
so in that case it would make MORE sense to refluff
for that setting
 
Pretty much. I restrict access to mechanics only based on balance.
If you can sell me an alternate explanation for a non-restricted mechanic? Go wild.
 
11:34 PM
Alternatively you just wouldn't get access to the entire fey based part of things
I had one moment where I was looking at a ranger archetype that gives low light vision and shit
could have even combined him with the trapper if I remembered - so perfect 1 lvl dip for my rogue
 
@Julix Maybe, but in this specific example, right? Eladrins are a lot like fey, but they're not really fey. A Sorcerer with such heritage might favor their chaotic side and manifest fey-like powers.
And since the world has no fey sages etc would recognize Eladrin magic
 
I told her the book's fluff she wouldn't let me
 
I'd be torn in this case. One side of me agrees with Gareth, I want that fluff and this shouldn't mess with which mechanics can be used. But those mechanics are tied to that fluff in my mind. Like people shifting as a minor action in D&D 4e smells kobolds from a mile.
 
If you refluff too liberally the only thing you're doing is messing with what's expected or what has been normal in the past
 
@Julix Define 'too liberally'. We're talking about settings which routinely have extraordinarily freakish crap go down on a daily basis.
 
11:37 PM
I haven't played D&D 4e but if kobolds can do it why shouldn't other small things do it too/
?
that depends on the setting
 
And if routinely freakish crap doesn't happen on that Prime, there's always other planes.
Or Sigil, or the Astral, or weird confluxes of magic.
Or exposure to elemental Chaos.
 
the setting I was a player in was rather alternative medieval world
 
@Julix Did it have wizards?
 
We didn't have any in our group
 
@Julix Don't care, wizards exist. Freakish backstory justified.
Owlbears, man.
 
11:39 PM
we had a druid (who was almost never using magic) with her little bear and a cleric at times
we had freakish monsters for sure
Like I said I have only played a few games with them and I didn't have this discussion with the DM
 
@Lord_Gareth following this trail we would end up in a world that's unrecognizable by medieval standards
 
@Zachiel How is that different from the typical D&D-style fantasy setting?
 
mine would be too with dinosaurs attacking in some Jungle forrest
 
@Zachiel Women are allowed to speak with men as equals, the world is polytheistic, both men and women wield political power, serfs can travel and own weapons, and gold is the currency standard.
That ship sailed.
 
hahaha
 
11:41 PM
The average priest or village witch can keep food from ever spoiling, which means that the salt trade which defined thousands of years of international trade is gone.
 
You could probably use a very limited amount of the mechanics of pathfinder to play a medieval simulator
 
Oh, you two know what I'm talking about. Cities built with spells, food provided by spells, fortifications and mundane defenses rendered pretty useless and so on.
 
Religious beliefs are objectively verifiable.
 
but I agree that accurate medieval-likeness isn't the goal
 
@Zachiel The only reasons that doesn't happen is genre conventions, Zachiel.
I know I've slung the Tippyverse at you
Which is what happens if even one goddamn wizard stops acting like a brain-damaged drool monkey.
 
11:43 PM
@Lord_Gareth I didn't get that sentence at al
what?
The fantasy/medieval feel on the other hand is important...
 
@Lord_Gareth and that should be the same for what is possible and what is not. To me (and I repeat, to me) some fluff is tied to the usual convention, and it goes towards the player's expectations
 
@Julix The Tippyverse, created by Emperor Tippy, is a setting based around the logical consequences of full-9 spellcasters existing, and most specifically the changes caused by the existence of the teleport circle spell.
 
@Zachiel I think I'm with you on that
@Lord_Gareth Interesting. Yeah I imagine there would be intense consequences for that kind of stuff existing... - in the original D&D setting higher levels were reached much less often is that right?
 
Now, I know that we're far away from bringing the Tippyverse upon our games with a little refluffing... but I'd be trying not to break many expectations, and that's why I usually default to the official fluff. The one people see when they read the manuals and the one they fantasize about.
 
@Julix You really only need one max-level wizard for the world to stop being recognisable.
 
11:46 PM
@Julix Depends on what you consider 'original'. Blackmoor? Couldn't tell you. Grayhawk had more than its share of powerful and imposing sorcerers, including names like Mordenkeinan, Tenser, Bigby, and Iggwilv
Forgotten Realms is defined by its reams of high-level jerks
Iggwilv, incidentally, chats with gods and has this habit of kidnapping demon princes so she can date rape them
 
@BESW depending on the personality of that wizard... if he's the build a tower hide and keep studying to become more powerful type you might never hear from him :D
 
Not kidding, incidentally
 
I just had the realization that i have never read a single D&D book
 
@Julix Now we're getting back into "identifying a narrow and unusual set of circumstances in which a thing could be true" when there are many more likely scenarios.
 
I've played Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale - both based in Feyrun
 
11:49 PM
From my end of things, their own characters are the only parts of the campaign world that my players have absolute agency over. My job, in part, is to help them fulfill their cool concepts and to encourage them to contribute to my campaign world.
 
but never learned much about the setting otherwise
 
Someone wants snakes for hair? Badass, you've sold me on listening to the backstory.
 
English is my second language, sorry if I sometimes don't get what people mean
Sold you means what here?
Like you wouldn't say yes before hearing a backstory (but obviously would once you did)? - if that is the case we're on the same page :D
 
@Julix In this context, it means that you've interested me or convinced me to do or accept something. As in, "You've sold me on this homebrew PrC," meaning that I'd allow it.
 
right
So back to the snakes for a bit just to help me chose which way of doing it I ultimately fly with: I was thinking there was a hugely powerful Medusa witch who terrorized the lands a while back. Heroes were sent to deal with her - it's been quiet for say a decade, but the heroes were never seen agai
My ugly goblin lady gets kicked out for being interested in stuff, reading etc. - she's lucky she escaped with her life
she hears about that and has this really strange hair so she wants to make it become like snakes
and fool everyone into giving her everything she desires
 
11:55 PM
Hrm...do you know what a 'potlatch' is, @Julix?
 
a cool indian boat?
no idea
 
Maybe, but the one I'm thinking of is an exchange of gifts so great that their loss destroys the ones who give them.
 
destroys?
 
@Julix One example is a complete sharing of memories and experiences, such that each being's personal identity is annihilated and each becomes a new being with all the memories of both.
 
that is soo cool!
was wrong about the boat by the way - they were probably on their way to a potlatch - was just the very first pic that came up :D
 
11:58 PM
This goblin of yours is exiled from the tribe and goes seeking power. She finds an old, tired medusa who is sick of being hunted and hated, sick of being hideous. A bargain is struck on an ancient pact-stone in the monster's possession
The goblin gives up her youth and beauty in exchange for the Medusa's sorcery
The snakes are just a side-effect
 
It is a strict law that bids us to dance. It is a strict law that bids us to distribute our property among our friends and neighbors. It is a good law.
 

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