TRPG General Chat

Simon Gill

00:00

Ahhh

Wall of Text rolls 20. Simon is critically hit.

BESW

BESW uses Wall of Text. It's super effective!

Simon Gill

It usually is.

BESW

I love hats, btw.

Simon Gill

You've reminded me of an awesome user from the White Wolf forums - Plague of Hats.

BESW

Best prop use ever: the whole group got their PCs hit with mirror duplication that reversed alignment in their duplicates. I played the evil versions of their characters, but one guy was neutral... so the rules said he rolled to randomly determine if his doppelganger was good or evil instead.

He rolled Lawful Good and decided to help the party against the other duplicates, so the player got to run both PCs. He used hats to differentiate which was speaking at a given moment.

Simon Gill

00:13

@BESW Hats are awesome.

BESW

I also have a set of pewter cups that I often use to hold dice or pencils, just to set the mood at the table, but that's not really in the scope of the question.

Simon Gill

@BESW Maybe table dressing is a seperate question about mood. It's vital for horror - but not so important for fantasy and action games.

BESW

[I'm a sucker for letters. They're easy to make, easy to carry, have a lot of scope as story and plot carriers, and play to my strengths as a writer of dialogue.]

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

urrrrrrrghhhhhhhhhhh

BESW

@SimonGill yeah, I'm not too good at using the environment to set mood.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

00:23

Why the hell did I forget my power brick for my laptop?

BESW

@BrianBallsun-Stanton [hefts shotgun]

Simon Gill

@BrianBallsun-Stanton Still jetlagged?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@SimonGill nope

Simon Gill

@BrianBallsun-Stanton That's a good thing then :)

BESW

@SimonGill I use the environment to establish my expectations. A clean, well-lit, hospitable game area without too many fiddly bits to distract the players. It encourages productive, polite, focused play.

Simon Gill

00:54

This is a bit awesome - mrlizard.com/fiction/ye-olde-magick-shoppe

2

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

oops.

Bloody bloody "create an event" for a public recipient list.

BESW

01:21

@SomeGuy Hey.

SomeGuy

Hello!

BESW

Glad to see you're a bit more active on the site these days!

SomeGuy

The superbowl is interesting enough as a social thing, but I'm not much interested in Beyonce. So I've temporarily retreated to the Stack

BESW

You could always try the Puppy Bowl.

Making my famous 4 layer Puppy Bowl dip. In 1 large bowl put layer of guacamole, then cheese, then sour cream, then the puppies #PuppyBowl

Tweeted by BronxZoosCobra on February 3, 2013 at 9:49 PM

SomeGuy

Yeah, I've been meaning to get active on GameDev and RPG general now that I'm coding/gaming again

BESW

01:23

@SimonGill Aside from the casual murderyness, I've run a couple NPC shopkeepers to that formula.

Hurf. That sim-game question is rubbing me sideways.

Simon Gill

@BESW How so?

BESW

@SimonGill It's a technically inaccurate and unanswerable question.

(As two of three answers point out, or I'd be in there with the edit-hammer.)

Simon Gill

But it's a valid question, in that it comes from a point of confusion over the GNS model.

BESW

In that case it's two questions: What does GNS describe? and What games support or encourage S-play to the exclusion of G-play and N-play?

(I'm not intending to do anything about this. Just talking about it here so I don't do unnecessary things there.)

Simon Gill

I'd agree that the core of the question is closer to the second one.

BESW

01:38

On a tangential topic, I suspect that the misconception about GNS as a way of describing games rather than gamers is fed by the common "Playing Wrong" fallacy.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@BESW yeap

Simon Gill

@BESW It could also flip around... GNS can target the game as a proxy for analysis of the developer who made the game.

BESW

It's exacerbated by the curious truth that RPGs are unique among games (Calvinball excepted, as always) because they have rules that must be allowed to conform to the people playing them.

SomeGuy

With one of my old groups, GURPS was actually a game about sketching out impossible physics situations. And dying in them.

Along with the usual arguing.

BESW

Any other game --board, card, video, computer-- ceases to be itself when the rules are changed to the extent that RPG rules are expected to bend and break.

Lord_Gareth

01:44

Heya folks

BESW

And yet, the rules cannot be ignored. Calvinball is actually a perfect parallel: the only rule is that the rules have to follow the spirit of the game, and the spirit of the game is defined by the rule which must be followed.

@Lord_Gareth Yawp!

SomeGuy

@Lord_Gareth Hello!

Lord_Gareth

You know @BESW, when people tell me that they think PFS is the best part of Pathfinder

I think from now on I'ma just link them to this -> giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270208

BESW

What's PFS?

Lord_Gareth

Pathfinder Society, the official Paizo-sponsored play venue. It's...well, it's subject to very immediate errata from the designers and follows PF-only rules with no third party or back-porting

Let us say, for the sake of brevity, that at no point are the official DMs, rules judges, administrators, or designers tested for competence. SKRs hissy fits have altered entire PFS campaigns

SomeGuy

01:52

SKR?

BESW

Honestly, most of that rant describes the vast majority of poor modules I've read in any system.

Lord_Gareth

Sean K Reynolds, lead designer for Pathfinder. About as competent as a back-alley surgeon who dropped out of med school and slightly less mature than a three year old.

BESW

It boils down to what I'm calling the HATE syndrome: Had A Target Endgame.

Simon Gill

@BESW Problem is that modules in PFS or the old D&D Living campaigns are supposed to reward good players with a meta currency. Bad modules just frustrate that urge.

Lord_Gareth

Aye, but that is not the thrust of the complaint, @BESW

The thrust of the complaint, and of the problem, is that PFS is a force that induces and sustains stasis in module design and implementation, whereas, say, WW's Camarilla fan club works with or around these sorts of problems to improve play experience.

PFS provides barriers to creativity and help.

BESW

01:57

@Lord_Gareth That.... is not the complaint of the post you linked.

It may be underlying that post's frustration, but it not explicit.

That post is concerned with the tendency to control information and choices in order to orchestrate a specific scenario regardless of player agency, and doing so in a hamfisted and illogical way.

Lord_Gareth

Mmmhm. But module writers don't do that. Module DMs do

BESW

@Lord_Gareth Then you've got better modules than I do.

Lord_Gareth

But! I must continue this discussion later, as my wife needs the computer.

(Try Expedition to Undermountain it's pretty good)

Now, I'm off!

BESW

Granted, I'm not in PF, never have been and doubt I ever will be.

Simon Gill

@BESW Not when there's fatey goodness to play with, anyway ;)

BESW

02:00

But at least 1/3 of the 4e modules I've used have some glaring "but what....? How...? He could just...!" moment.

I frequently leave them in for comedy.

@SomeGuy can tell you about Kalarel, the villain who couldn't get good help.

Simon Gill

@BESW Was this the Keep on the Shadowfell villain?

BESW

Yes.

In the original module he was a total goof-up who was defeated solely through his own incompetence.

Simon Gill

The description of the letters was highly amusing ;)

BESW

[rummages around in his notes]

Irontooth,
You mangy fatherless son of a gnome, your nithing lizard-rats need to stop sending me sacrifices. They’re piling up like cordwood, and they stink like only a bowel-voiding half-orc can. I have all I need to complete the rift-pact, and then you’ll be well rewarded in the war, If you don’t attract attention with more thrice-damned superfluous raids! Otherwise I’ll find room to include your rank stumbleclutch in the rites. Do not forget that I am
Your Lord and Master
Kalarel Barakdral
Postscript: Have you tried leashes on the incompetent scute-suckers?

SomeGuy

@BESW Ahh yeah, the guy who hired the Kobolds.

Simon Gill

02:04

That is just making me giggle.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@BESW It is fun to play that up for camp :)

SomeGuy

@BESW And then goblins.

With rather similar results, iirc.

BESW

Yeeeah.

The party wisely left alone the barred and nailed-shut door with a crudely scrawled note "DO NOT ENTER (no, really)."

Simon Gill

@BESW Maybe he should have left the note off - he may have dealt with his incompetent underlings problem that way.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

urrrrrrgh

pictures of plate fragments

BESW

02:06

@SimonGill They're the ones who put the note up, actually.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

ahad.edu.au/filestore/13519

The fun never starts!

BESW

They couldn't deal with the marauding monster in the dungeon, so they just locked it in the basement.

Simon Gill

@BrianBallsun-Stanton Luckily, I can't see it. It's behind a login-wall.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@SimonGill Is free login. Think of the excitement...

BESW

Hey, we used to dig stuff like that up in my yard.

Simon Gill

02:08

Anyway... I'm sleepy (in good time tonight!) so I think it's time for me to go to bed. Before I start napping on my keyboard :P

BESW

@SimonGill ta!

SomeGuy

@BrianBallsun-Stanton I dunno about Australia, but on Guam you literally trip over 'ancient pottery fragments' on your way to work.

BESW

@SomeGuy It's more archaeologically exciting when they're Marianas Red.

Blue china is... WWII.

SomeGuy

@BESW Don't tell that to my ex-girlfriend.

BESW

Unglazed red pottery, though.... that stuff is pretty awesome, archaeologically.

Means it's Pre-Latte, at least 1,200 years old.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

02:14

@BESW I'm t my best post latte, really...

pre-latte, I'm a zombie.

BESW

@BrianBallsun-Stanton ha ha.

Latte stone

A latte stone, or simply latte (also latde), is the term for a pillar (Chamorro language: haligi) capped by a hemispherical stone capital (tasa) with the flat side facing up. Used as building supports by the ancient Chamorro people, they are found throughout most of the Mariana Islands. In modern times, the latte stone is seen as a sign of Chamorro identity and is used in many different contexts. Construction Latte stones have been made of limestone, basalt, or sandstone. Typical pillars range in height from 60 centimeters to three meters, and generally narrow towards the top. The p...

....Hobbs would like that link.

@SomeGuy If you see him in Seattle, say hi from me!

[grin]

SomeGuy

Really, the Superbowl is about large men hurting each other over an oddly-shaped ball. There isn't much reason that it needs to be brought to a grinding halt over a brown out.

BESW

What, you wouldn't freak out if the Vashta Nerada were advancing?

SomeGuy

I'm just kind of shocked at the mainland reaction to losing power for an hour or two.

People in the stadium are straight up panicking, or going home...

Weird.

BESW

[snerk]

In SC, I panicked during storms because I didn't trust the buildings and I didn't know what kind of root systems the trees had.

But straight-up power outages? There was campus looting before I'd decided to dig out my flashlight.

SomeGuy

02:24

lolwut

BESW

"Dudes. There's still electricity on the other side of campus. Simmer down and put away the sharpened sticks."

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@BESW It's not latte stone unless it dispenses coffee!

... I ... may be slightly focused on coffee

BESW

@BrianBallsun-Stanton Believe you me, the novelty items and coffee shop name puns have not gone unmined.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@BESW yes

BESW

Normally I'd direct this at the now-sleeping Simon, but could someone please take a glance at my question and see if it's coherent? I'm not sure I said it right.

0

Q: What does a party need to consult on before we start a campaign?

I'm starting up a campaign next month, my first in the FATE system. Reading through Your Story, I've noticed several places that say things like, This [who decides if a character has broken a Law] is something that a gaming group should decide on as a policy for their specific game. (YS234) ...

Lord_Gareth

03:05

@KitFox I hope you get this, 'cause I lost the link to the Hotel for Tuesday

@BESW The thing with the modules I've ran is that none of them have problems in the text that I find difficult to solve. Module writers often have to fight with both editors and publishers and always have to deal with slipshod playtesting, so I'm not generally speaking inclined to blame them

BESW

@Lord_Gareth Fair enough, but a) regardless of blame, it's a problem and b) modules by their very nature should not require fixing.

SomeGuy

@Lord_Gareth I agree. I think overall modules get a lot of hate for pretty minor infractions.

Lord_Gareth

Though as I said earlier @BESW, try "Expedition to Undermountain" sometime. Frankly the only really sucky part they wrote in was handing the PCs a free greater teleport in an environment that is otherwise immune to teleports. I was like, "WHY DID YOU DO THIS THING? WHY?"

Managed to replace it with a callable portal that would take 'em back to the Yawning Portal

(Combat use not suggested)

BESW

In a perfect world, a GM should be able to pop open a module that says "Level 5, four players" and run it for a group of four level 5s built within reasonable range of "normal" for power levels. He shouldn't have to "fix" or "solve" it; he bought a module so he wouldn't have to do that kind of work.

The further a module strays from "can be run out of the box under reasonable conditions," and the closer it gets to "a loose skeleton for the GM to work from," the more I'm going to accuse it of failing to be pre-made content.

@SomeGuy I will happily mock a module for having kobolds hide on the wrong side of the bushes, but in a "Oh, you," kind of way.

SomeGuy

@BESW I've only run like 3 modules, and one of them was ToH, so I suppose I don't really have much experience, but I've only encountered a handful of things that needed to be tweaked for a normal party.

@BESW And yeah, stuff like that is honestly pretty funny.

BESW

03:20

But when the entire premise of the module hinges on someone with high mental stats failing to make plans that pass the 5-year-old-advisor test?

Then the mockstick stops poking, and starts beating.

Lord_Gareth

Indeed.

Expedition to Undermountain opens up with Halaster dying a horrific death off screen, the result of which is a magical earthquake that rocks Waterdeep and the Calling, an event that lures hundreds of adventurers to Undermountain, compelled to fix various problems within it to prevent its collapse and the subsequent destruction of the city above.

The PCs form the group of the Called that are unwittingly required to fix the biggest problem - a magical convergence that, if unsolved, will result in an explosion that engulfs the entire Sword Coast in an antimagical storm of apocalyptic proportions

'S good shit.

BESW

Excusing problems in pre-made content by saying "I can fix them" is like saying "It's magic, it doesn't have to make sense." You're right, but entirely missing the actual problem.

Lord_Gareth

I tend to excuse the authors because generally speaking the problems happen at the quality control stage

PFS being a great example of authors being hamstrung by shoddy developer culture annihilating their work

BESW

That's fine, but it's all the same at the consumer end.

The effect is content that isn't what it says on the tin, and results in questions like that poor guy with the spooked player.

BESW

03:48

By the way, @SomeGuy, I've been playing a shaman in Colin's DS campaign.

I'm not anywhere near as complex as Bharash, but the buff-tracking is maddening... and the buffs are awesome.

SomeGuy

@BESW I told you that I passed Richard Bharash's stats, and he burned them right?

BESW

I heard something to that effect.

I'm specializing in conjurations, which is.... weird.

SomeGuy

But yeah, Shamans have a ton of stuff to keep track of

BESW

I have my SC and an immobile encounter conjuration that gives +1 def to allies next to it.

Enemies next to my conjurations grant CA, allies next to my SC get +1 to NADs (untyped).

And I've got two dailies that let me summon even more, one defensive and one that summons FOUR offensive (+1 atk and +1d6 on melee dmg to allies adjacent).

SomeGuy

Bharash didn't lie down because he was lazy. He lied down because it helped stop the buffs from spinning.

BESW

03:53

Also allies I heal next to my SC get +Con mod on heals, which makes the Standard of Healing? do +7 at level 7.

Unfortunately, sometimes I need to be near my SC to get the benefit of my own buffs.

SomeGuy

Dude, that battle standard is one of the worst-balanced items I've ever seen.

BESW

It was awesome.

SomeGuy

Just in the sense that if you don't build to accommodate it, it's almost worthless. But if you do it's HUGE.

BESW

Yeeah, that Banner is pretty amazing.

About the only thing balancing it is the standard action it takes to plant it, but, well. You've proven how useless standard actions can be with the right builds.

@wraith808 Hi! How's it going?

BESW

04:19

@SomeGuy I have a breaking for the Banner.

Rose Scythe of Chauntea
For a character who is a member of a divine class or a primal class, this scythe functions as a staff implement.
Whenever you use a healing power to allow an ally to regain hit points, until the end of your next turn, any creature that hits that ally with a melee attack takes damage equal to the scythe’s enhancement bonus.

SomeGuy

Wow.

Niiiice.

BESW

Since it's also a staff implement, you can do staff cheese too!

(I'm building a druid sentinel.)

(Druid sentinels have Healing Word as their encounter heal. It still counts as a cleric power. I don't know why, but I need to break it.)

wraith808

04:37

@BESW Pretty good... I was just popping in randomly. :)

BESW

@wraith808 Cool.

I'm hoping you might have something to contribute to the DFRPG question I put up a couple hours ago.

BESW

05:02

There's a "damage" tag. Should there be a "stress" tag?

Is that a meta question?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

05:18

@BESW magic slips of paper.

BESW

@BrianBallsun-Stanton I'm probably never going to get to run this guy again, but yes.

If the DS campaign ever goes again, I'll probably be two-manning it as the only player.

.....were it anything but DS, I'd be going for a gnome paladin with the Rose Scythe and a fey panther, accompanied by a beast ranger.

Paladin spends surges on.... anything, triggers Rose Scythe, all three "allies" are now painful to touch.

But I can't think of any non-divine class that enjoys spending it surges so much.

BESW

08:24

Am I being dense and missing something here?

0

A: What does "Your Story" call on a party to consult over before we start a campaign?

In my not so humble opinion, Fate is about story telling and not rule lawyering. Therefore you (as either a player or referee) should be thinking about what makes a good story for all. Use your common sense -- yeah, I know if it were common, we would not have a name for it. The rules are there ...

Sardathrion

08:44

Ping

Not sure I expressed things clearly. I see everything in Fate as being cooperative.

BESW

Hey!

I'm kinda in and out, but I'm here.

Sardathrion

/me is at work.

so quick is better than long

BESW

I agree. I come from a D&D background and am VERY excited about the FATE philosophy in contrast.

I'm trying to identify the game-foundation decisions (like how easy it is to die) that the group should be making together, because I know I won't think of them all; my background gives me biases I don't necessarily even recognize yet.

Sardathrion

I feel (and maybe wrong) that you are focusing on the rules too much. move away from board games and into "Once upon a time..." territory.

Right, okay. I get it now!

Sorry, being dense.

BESW

'sokay, I'm still figuring out how to talk about this stuff.

Sardathrion

08:48

Do not optimise before running... Let the game dictate those. You're building a story and not a set of simple victory conditions.

BESW

But aren't things like "you could die easily, so do everything you can to avoid being taken out" going to be important to have upfront?

Sardathrion

The only one I would ask is "What do you expect from the game? What would you like to see? What would you like not to see? Oh, BTW, everything is up for discussion."

Not at all.

BESW

....It's important to note that my players have less non-D&D experience than I do....

As I talk about this, I realize that it's perhaps more a matter of schema.

Sardathrion

Okay.

Maurycy Zarzycki

"I agree. I come from a D&D background and am VERY excited about the FATE philosophy in contrast." This! I think so too

Sardathrion

08:51

I would run a few one offs just to showcase the system to them. What you are doing is building a story and using the rules to facilitate and enhance it.

Think of the game more as free form improvisation drama and less like a board game.

Right, have to run. Code needs to be written. I'll leave myanswer for now but if it attacks downvotes I'll dump it as a comment.

All the best.

BESW

I guess... we don't even know what is and isn't an assumption or a choice. The DFRPG manual calls out a few specific ones that it considers important which we might wind up butting our heads against without knowing what's wrong.

@Sardathrion Ta very much!

We want to consider it improv... but it's a learned skill, not a toggle switch.

Maurycy Zarzycki

I've only played on session in Dresden so far

One-on-one actually, and it was pretty much like playing without system at all

BESW

It's not a FATE-specific issue, but I've occasionally been very frustrated on this site (not often, thankfully) by answers --and not only to my questions-- that boil down to "l2 shift paradigm faster."

Maurycy Zarzycki

"l2 shift paradigm faster." I think I don't get the reference

BESW

@MaurycyZarzycki That... actually makes me kinda glad that one of my players is leaving island before we start DF.

Maurycy Zarzycki

08:58

@BESW It was only a two hours long session, not a great example

There weren't any conflicts and anything like that

BESW

"l2" = "learn to" in 1337.

Hmm.

I'm basically gonna be running a one-on-one myself.

Any pointers?

Maurycy Zarzycki

Hm

@BESW I am a big improviser myself. A good thing to do is to prepare a list of all attack/defense trapping the player can do, grouping them by conflict type (physical, social, psychical)

At first the number of available options might be intimidating

Even better, you might want to introduce only one conflict type per session

Don't worry about the maneuvers, let the player come up with them in the course of play if they can't do it right off the bat

And make sure to use as much aspects as you can, to familiarize the players with them

Most of it is ideas I came up AFTER playing that session, so I haven't had a chance to test them out ;)

BESW

Did you do city creation?

Maurycy Zarzycki

Nope, we've played in a completely different setting which was setup up X years after another campaign we've finished together

We've done the character creation though

BESW

What changes were made to that process for one player?

Maurycy Zarzycki

09:12

We've ignored the last two steps which need you to incorporate "other players"

Now that I think about it was a bad idea, I should've just weaved in two NPCs

BESW

I think the book suggests dropping one of them if you have under three players.

Maurycy Zarzycki

Might be

But with only one player I think it will be better to add NPCs

BESW

My player will have no problem inventing NPCs, for sure.

Maurycy Zarzycki

I've played a good amount of one-on-one sessions and if there is one thing I've learned from them

It is that you need a good cast of NPCs

BESW

I've done a lot of two-player, but not much one-player.

And the longest 1P campaign was deliberately solo, Man Vs World.

So... duly noted. NPCs everywhere.

I'll start practicing my funny voices again.

Maurycy Zarzycki

09:18

Maybe not everywhere, but you want to make sure that you yourself can take over the task which is usually taken by other players

BESW

what do you see as that task, specifically?

Maurycy Zarzycki

There is no downtime for GM

Usually the players can interact with each other and spend fun time in that way

But when there is only one player, all his attention is directed at you

BESW

eeep.

Maurycy Zarzycki

It's difficult chatting, listening to a podcast and programming at the same time

BESW

You're doing well on this end!

Maurycy Zarzycki

09:21

Anyway I am not the most experienced GM ever, I've only played for three years or so, and on average one session a month or less

BESW

Length of experience is not a reliable indicator of richness of experience.

You've given me some good stuff to think about, thanks.

Maurycy Zarzycki

No problem, 'twas a pleasure

I don't have much chance to play RPG so I like to at least talk about them :)

BESW

Fair enough.

I'm very lucky to have had a regular if small core of players for about four years.

Maurycy Zarzycki

I've played with my girlfriend and her friend very regularly, until their friendship kinda ended

BESW

Aw.

It's always sad when that kind of thing happens. I lost a couple people to Drama a while back.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

10:49

::muttermuttereditmutter::

BESW

That's... about the reaction I had to that question.

Zachiel

11:16

heya @brian

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Zachiel yo

Zachiel

I have a list type question so I'm gonna post it here in the chat

BESW

@Zachiel [hisses and recoils]

Zachiel

It's D&D 3.5 related and with the same sources limitations Brian already knows (I might point them again if necessary)

I need to get a cohort (lvl 17 max) a really high spellcraft modifier

Which feats and other tricks can I use?

As of now I'm considering a fancy lab (+4), ability focus (+3), halruaan adept (+3) and polymorph any object (unknown INT increase)

Jeor Mattan

item familiar

divine insight dndtools.eu/spells/complete-adventurer--54/divine-insight--371

guidance of the avatar (don't recall the bonus type, though)

Zachiel

11:21

divine insignt is for one check only

I need this incantatrix to persist something like all the spell his int modifier allows him

Jeor Mattan

ah, incantatrix.

see, guidance of the avatar is for one check, too. And is a 2nd level spell.

get a wand, it will be cheap enough at those levels.

Zachiel

w8, @jeor ...I get the allowed material list in a sec.

Jeor Mattan

also, link for guidance: wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a

BESW

@JeorMattan [face/palm] That doesn't even do what it says it does!

Jeor Mattan

@BESW what? +20 competence on a single skill check. are you trying to match the fluff?

BESW

11:26

Yeah, they didn't do what they set out to do.

Jeor Mattan

well, I agree that this spell is an example of poor design even from purely mechanical viewpoint.

Zachiel

docs.google.com/document/d/…

Jeor Mattan

and the author forgot to read skill check mechanic, obviously.

Zachiel

here is the list of the HR

@jeor please don't make comments on how limiting that is. I know.

Jeor Mattan

okay, that rules guidance out, as well as item familiar, but divine insight is still here.

make a wand of that, get +8 to each check.

BESW

11:30

@BrianBallsun-Stanton Neener neener.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@BESW whut?

BESW

Archspell's Living Spell (30th level): "You can use your Signature Spell as an encounter power rather than a daily power." Archmage's Archspell (30th level): "Choose one daily spell that you know. You can now cast that spell as an encounter spell (rather than as a daily spell)." Neither is useful for the OP, but... they exist? — BESW 2 mins ago

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Zachiel sorry, to that game our response is we don't support custom RPGS with no published rules.

Zachiel

but the cohort can't cast it and I'm not too much into casting a fourth and a second level spell to help him help me. And I'm also not spending daily money on it

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@BESW nice!

BESW

11:31

I was sure Colin had researched the same kind of idea last year... so I asked him.

Seven minutes for him to track down citations.

Zachiel

@brian it's still a D&D campaign with less than all the material. Like if we didn't have all the books... which is perfectly legit since it is a modular game

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Zachiel oh, sure. Until you get into the maze of twisty rulings all alike.

Almost every single suggestion we've made has been met with "Nope, that was banned because of"

Jeor Mattan

@Zachiel buy. a. wand. 2nd level spell, 3rd level caster = 4500gp for 50 charges of make-me-better. 90gp for persisting a spell is kinda cheap. And at those levels UMD is not a problem.

Zachiel

@jeor I expect to persist all the spells I can and I'm a divine+arcane focus chameleon. It's like 40 spells per day without counting 0 level spells and bonus spells from high stats. I just can't buy one wand per day for I don't gain enough money on a daily basis. Plus, I'm never gonna get the money to buy "pay once, use forever" better equip for a while, that way

I might cast the spell once or twice per day to persist the highest level spells

but I'm looking for every other way to increase my spellcraft check in a permanent way.

Including helping my cohort for a +2

Jeor Mattan

okay, let's reiterate. what DC do you need to beat, can you take 10, what do you already have?

also, do you have followers along with cohort?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

11:42

er, everyday spells?

are custom magic items allowed?

Zachiel

no custom magic items, sorry

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Zachiel not even from the DMG?

it gives prices and everything

Jeor Mattan

does that cover skill bonus items?

DMG prices for these are reasonable, and there are loads of skill bonus items already, just for other skills.

Zachiel

Any way to take 10 would be appreciated. Since I can only get to lvl 17 and I'd like him to cast shapechange on me I'm not going to multiclass exemplar.
The DC is 51, which means I need a +50 check (If I only want to persist spells I can cast myself. Goes up to +59 if I want to persist any spell)

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

mmmm, hives and nanobots...

massive amounts of supertiny followers aiding another

Zachiel

11:47

I already have magical aptitude (+2), focus (+3), halruaan spellcaster (+3), fancy lab (+4), help from my main character (+2), ranks (+20), lucky stone or whatever it's called (+1), ioun stone (+1)

@Brian don't go buggish

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Zachiel bugs? nonsense.

Zachiel

It's like the +1 to damage for every charging ally with summoner folowers

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

golems

Jeor Mattan

okay, that's +36 not counting int

Zachiel

my natural int would be +12

BESW

11:48

Does 3.5 have an aid other cap like 4e?

Jeor Mattan

look for a good form to PAO into, int 38 is pretty easy to get

Zachiel

no but I want to be able to do it by myself

That's why I ask. I'm not familiar with PaO. Maybe no halruaan spellcaster and a otherworldly sun elf is better

I can use MMs 1 to 3

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@BESW nope!

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870890/…

aaand actually, as a chamelion, you can dip for some of this stuff

so yeah, stuff :)

Zachiel

I think "no archetipes" is starting to go into that field of yours we discussed earlier ^^"

however the character could also fiendshape to morph into a planetar

are the good int forma all outsiders?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

hrmmmm

how much to hire a character with class levels?

Jeor Mattan

11:55

@Zachiel dunno, probably. you need a form with int of 28 (you get +4 inherent bonus from Tome and +6 from headband of int).

Zachiel

And kill it after he knows all I've cast on myself? I'm trying to be secretive! It's me and my cohort.
If I change my race do I qualify for the regional feat?

BESW

Apropos of nothing, my song discovery of the night: youtube.com/watch?v=ckToa5Qdqm0

I'm thinking Twitter should leverage it.

Zachiel

I'm cooking now. If you have some other suggestion @ me

bye

BESW

Ta.

Zachiel

and thanks

Jeor Mattan

12:05

@Zachiel okay, found one. (ahem) Sarrukh. Int 30 out of the box. With headband of int +6 and Tome+2 you hit Int 38 and +50 spellcraft modifier.

BESW

@JeorMattan [jawdrop] Is a sarrukh legal in his game?!

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

WAIT, WHAT?!

Jeor Mattan

shrugs Serpent Kingdoms were allowed.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

er... no wait, caps are appropriate

... is ..

Well, you've won then

that's easy.

Jeor Mattan

are we to degrade to the punpunesque levels?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

12:10

@JeorMattan dude, you... opened the book

And this game brings out all the worst in me.

Jeor Mattan

it sure is possible, but is outright broken and will likely get banned.

BESW

Dude, I ran an campaign about ancient yuan-ti rebuilding their dead empire and decided to leave the sarrukh out of it.

Jeor Mattan

as opposed to just getting a meager amount of Int to persist a handful of buffs.

BESW

I used a yuan-ti abomination worm that walks instead, because it was less mean.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@JeorMattan true, but.... um..

you can't use that race, without the gods going "wait, what?"

BESW

12:14

@Rob Hi!

Rob

Afternoon all :)

Jeor Mattan

@BrianBallsun-Stanton to be honest, the list of houserules doesn't look like DM knows what Pun-Pun is, so yes I can.

@Rob Hi!

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@JeorMattan oh, there isn't a DM

there are committees (plural) of DMs

BESW

It is the kind of game that makes the sadistic social engineer in me sit up and bark.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@BESW yep

BESW

12:16

But the RPer in me flees, sobbing, to bury its face in a kinder, gentler game.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

But yeah, for aid-another stuff, I'd basically do the cult.

and go "how much to hire an X"

and just... hire them

Jeor Mattan

@BrianBallsun-Stanton I suppose that's what the followers are for his Leadership.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

yeaap, as a function of how much control you have over their build

BESW

So, they found Richard III under a car park.

Does anyone still buy into the babes in the tower malarky?

Rob

Well I'm expecting a statement from him anytime soon.
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/richard-iii-to-pick-up-where-he-left-off-2013020458569

BESW

12:27

Lovely!

I really have to admire how thorough the character assassination of Richard III was.

Rob

Well when you're worried about a former Monarch coming back as a zombie, you need to make sure people are pre-scared of him.

BESW

See, that right there? That is a campaign hook.

The Oracle

15:03

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Q: Links to "D&D Tools"

I've noticed lots of links to dndtools.eu lately. That site seems to have verbatim text from a lot of non-OGL D&D stuff. Obviously, that's really useful as a reference! But the site itself is presumably violating copyright, and if it ever gets taken down, all those links become useless. I...

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