Good Morning

Hi.

@BESW His nose drips like a leaky faucet. Noticing this ruins the gif forever. Or enhances it further.

@Magician Oh, that's one of the things that makes it so funny.

Relativistic journey time calculator. For all your sci fi needs.

@Magician Awesome. Though I'd appreciate a "Simple Mode" with only speed and distance.

Nice.

Mmm, I'd almost forgotten what it felt like to average almost 1 rep a minute for two hours straight.

Gotta answer more 3.PF questions.

Only 99 rep to cap privileges.

@AvnerShahar-Kashtan He did, much to everyone's total lack of surprise.

@BESW I think he had some traumatic experience with a clown monk in a dark alley in his childhood.

@AvnerShahar-Kashtan On the way back from a game session, 3.5 shot and killed KRyan's hopes for a highly-optimized monk.

@BESW shot killed and beat to death again...possibly with bare hands

Now he stalks the night, fighting injustice, ignorance, and imbalance. He is The Bitter Knight.

@BESW *laugh**choke**laugh*

[grin] I jest in fun. I hope he knows that.

[ding] Nice Answer badger, and my ratios are once again perfectly even.

Votes to close, please!

I forget, does that have a requirement?

@Metool 3k

you can flag to close with less than that if you'd like

flags get automagically confirmed when it gets closed and there are badgers for bunches of confirmed flags

Flag badgers!

Alright, well what's the appropriate flag for this...

@Metool "it should be closed for another reason..."

that brings up the close dialog where you can decide what to vote to close as

Unclear, I want to say.

But then I started reading again and blark.

no system and no reqs makes it too broad at the very least. Unclear will be for when he inadequately clarifies :)

@BESW ok this just makes me want Redwall the movie

@waxeagle Urgh. It'd either get toned down because "animal movies are for kids" or it'd get grossly exaggerated and sexualized to be "edgy" because it's an animal movie for adults and nobody thinks those will work unless they're shocking.

Also, can you imagine the sequels? They could crank 'em out every six months, using the same digital models and sets for nearly all of them, and just changing the names in large parts of the scripts.

@BESW yeah good point, it occupies an odd place

@BESW yeah that makes it even less appealing

As novels for kids of that age it's great; formula writing has a really important role in teaching plot conventions and standard English in a "safe" environment (because you know what's going to happen, at least in broad terms).

@DavidCEllis Hi!

Okay, now somebody needs to write an answer for the Expat saying "physics have no place in D&D rules."

I'm in the middle of that.

And I need to get over my knee-jerk reaction to someone calling themself an "expat."

gah I hate sore throats

@AvnerShahar-Kashtan When this kind of topic comes up, I usually link to A Bunch of Rocks as an example of what we'd need to do in order to accurately model reality in an RPG.

@Phil Right there with ya.

Voice reduced to less than a whisper atm :/

(which my wife is probably grateful for )

@BESW Next makes this rule so easy. (as did 4e).

@waxeagle 3.5 rules:

You have disadvantage. that is, no need for anything more complicated.

> Characters swimming, floating, or treading water on the surface, or wading in water at least chest deep, have improved cover (+8 bonus to AC, +4 bonus on Reflex saves) from opponents on land. Landbound opponents who have freedom of movement effects ignore this cover when making melee attacks against targets in the water. A completely submerged creature has total cover against opponents on land unless those opponents have freedom of movement effects.

@BESW /wave :)

@BESW that's complicated.

@waxeagle That's 3.5. [canned laughter]

aye

@BESW I thought we had a live studio audience :P

@waxeagle Yeah, but they don't laugh at 3.5. jokes anymore.

@DavidCEllis What's new?

yeah it's a bit overplayed

not much, ramping up for the day at work

how to tell if someone means business

@BESW Well, that doesn't very well account for the flowing water's exaggerated effect on the arrow's vector, now does it?

@JonathanHobbs Enormous screenshot is enormous?

@BESW I didn't take it, I just made a point of not pasting a direct image link xD

@JonathanHobbs om-nom-powercrystal-nom.

@JonathanHobbs I am reminded of my idea of a magic knife that animates any corpse it's stuck into, so long as the knife remains in the corpse.

And my subsequent idea of having an undead villain who sticks himself with dozens of knives to reduce the chance that the right one will get pulled out mid-battle.

@AvnerShahar-Kashtan "You cannot attack them" seems to cover it pretty well.

@BESW Not as well as the OP wants, apparently, with tables for random directions of arrow-floating-awaying.

@AvnerShahar-Kashtan sure it does, accuracy penalty

@JonathanHobbs that pic makes me think of the line from Gladiator "Their answer is no..."

that's what an AC bonus is.

and a reflex save bonus too

@DavidCEllis Good answers on the Fate question in chat about a day ago, by the way.

@BESW I am reminded of the rule about eating power sources larger than your own head

Thanks! I'm loving Fate more and more as I get more into it, it seems to have just the right amount of everything for my style... now to find 4 like minded local folks :/

@JonathanHobbs Ah, I think that's "Don't."

@BESW That is it

@DavidCEllis I've had success with single-player games in Fate.

It scales down really well and doesn't lose quality like D&D-ish systems usually do.

hmm, I know it scales up too, guess I can take a stab at a small game. Might have to do the same with Microscope (my other recent passion, love the simplicity and range of that game)

I've only got one guy in my group right now; I'm running his werecat in an Ancient Egypt political thriller game, and he's running my hobo shaman in a gearpunk urban fantasy game.

lol, awesome!

@JonathanHobbs Ahh, the Evil Overlord List. One of the mainstays of the Internet.

The drawback is that you lose that thing where if one person's having an off day or dries up on ideas for half an hour, the rest of the group is there to compensate.

yeah, but for me, those nights we'd just go play Halo, lol

The benefit is that with just two people it's easier to match schedules and to get exactly the game experience you want instead of juggling multiple experience goals to find something that fits everybody.

Can't believe I never saw this before: the dangers of using regular expressions to parse HTML: stackoverflow.com/questions/1732348/…

@AvnerShahar-Kashtan [crickets]

I think you frightened the chat.

@BESW Ah, it's ok. I had assumed Tony the Pony had eaten you all.

@AvnerShahar-Kashtan There's also this one:

@AvnerShahar-Kashtan ah yes, that one actually is on a meta tee shirt

@JonathanHobbs ... WTH?

@Aaron ;D

@Aaron heh :)

note the original post date on that one.

@AvnerShahar-Kashtan It's like they're jumping on the D20 Bandwagon in 2013. Well, 2014, really, since the game isn't out yet.

Hehehehe

Robin Williams stand up comedy is not what I expected.

@Aaron See also: Bob Saget.

@AlexP Hmmm. Once my robin play list runs out I will.

Bob Saget was one of the dirtiest big-name comics of his day.

It was weird that he got cast to be the milquetoast dad on Full House.

I will never be able to watch Aladdin in the same way after listening to Robin William standup.

@AdamArold Hi!

Hi!

What brings you to this odd little corner of SE?

We're not that odd!

@ProfessorLokiCaprion We have a four-star comment from 8 hours ago that compares the chat to a terrifying all-consuming grey ooze monster from a 1980s cartoon show for little girls. Which sings cheerful songs.

The highest-starred comment I've ever made questioned the ability of this chat to contain "normal humans."

@BESW ... alright, maybe we are. But we're civilized about it.

@ProfessorLokiCaprion We do try to be nice weirdos.

good morning to you.

@Novian Hi.

hows it going with you?

Tired. Achey. Cough.

what a coincidence. i feel 2 out of 3 of those things.

@Novian Would you like some tea?

@AvnerShahar-Kashtan point of interest: while my analysis of the rules may not apply to everyone’s game equally, they are the rules as actually presented, are frequently very difficult to fix, and I have run into these problems in actual play many times. No one in any game I have ever been in has managed to be effective as a monk. In one game the DM had to permanently transmute the character into a high-HD dragon and give him two major artifacts just to keep up with the party.

So “spherical monk in a vacuum,” not at all

real monks in real games facing these very real problems

@KRyan The problem comes when you tell other people they're playing wrong if they aren't encountering the same problems you are. Which you do.

I kind of take offense to the notion that the games I play are fictitious, so you’ll have to forgive me if I have to respond to this comment.

[Scrolls up to see what he's missing out on...]

@KRyan It's still a vacuum when you assume that your anecdotes are the only valid ones and dismiss contradictory anecdotes as anomalous.

@BESW link me to such a case and I will edit it. I don’t recall ever doing so, and never meant to. I do state things as facts rather than couch it in terms of experience, because it’s based on the actual rules, but I would not do so if it were contradicted by my experience.

@BESW most of the anecdotes I have seen have simply been from games where the characters simply do not have high demands on their mechanical power, which means the mechanical problems are less significant. It does not mean that they do not exist, however.

@KRyan You've dragged people from the comments into chat for the express purpose of interrogating them to find out what they house-ruled in order to get monk experiences that didn't match yours.

As you know, I think your objective analysis of the numbers on monks is accurate.

@BESW your choices of verbs would not be mine, and I wonder how either thing is really possible in the medium

moreover, I’m trying to recall such situations and can only think of one where said discussion was requested

@BESW yes, and typically that’s all I say. I respond to statements that say they are inaccurate with questions about what, if any, counter-analysis is being offered to back up such statements, but I have never said anything like “it is not possible for a monk to do well in a game”

bah, I dunno

at this point I’m just being defensive

which isn’t helpful

I’d need to have things pointed out at the time so that I can reconsider actual examples

because in my head this is too vague for me to like

Aye, and I don't mean to be antagonistic.

see what I did wrong

@BESW trust me, I believe that; I would not be bothering with this conversation at all if I did not

I genuinely value your opinion on the subject and am trying to determine what behavior or actions have caused it

but without particular examples, it’s difficult if not impossible to do so

You have a reputation for bringing up the monk thing at the drop of a hat and insisting that only anomalous practices can provide monks with the opportunity to be successful.

yes, on some level, I do not want people to nerf monks in their games, because I fear for the poor player who’s stuck with them

When in reality D&D games are nothing but anomalous.

@BESW I really do not think the second statement is accurate

"When in reality D&D games are nothing but anomalous." <-- Dear god I wish my local rules lawyer would understand that one part...

@KRyan You have the reputation for it. Whether you believe the thing to be true, your aggressiveness on the subject makes it appear so.

There is no standard experience. Everyone's starting from the same rulebook, but (as our side conversation just demonstrated) those rules can easily be read a myriad different ways--and that's before we bring in the fact that most D&D is taught memetically rather than by book, and that each group introduces its own house rules or playstyles.

@DavidCEllis You might enjoy this essay by our own @Magician.

@BESW also, monks are hardly the only subject for this, it’s just this particular site doesn’t seem to bring up Vow of Poverty or “wizards aren’t actually broken guys!” or whatever

@BESW there’s also this perception I have that a lot of people attribute more success to monks than they actually achieve because they “seem cool,” so I feel like I have to be very “no, number, number, number,” to try to make things a bit more objective

and I know it’s not purely objective

anyway, I have to go

this is sort of unsatisfactory for me because I get that there’s an issue that I haven’t really wrapped my head around, but not for now

later all

Aight, take care.

@BESW @BESW hmm, quite insightful from a player/GM and group perspective, but from a developer and publisher perspective there always has to be the next thing (if nothing else, simply to make enough money to stay in business so you can continue to publish the old games as well), So would the discussion be better to talk about what works, rather than just what doesn't?

@DavidCEllis He's got some of those, too.

interesting, it auto targets the reply

@DavidCEllis yes

@DavidCEllis the key to the positive is understanding the paradigm that everyone is going to play your game differently and your perception of your game does not match those of the people who will play it.

Once you understand that, you can design for it. In some ways Next is the embrace of that, but in other ways, tragically, the designers are locked into the One True D&D thought process

(just to throw out a designer/publisher example off the top of my head)

@DavidCEllis Here, have a Same Page Tool.

Magician is a GM, so that's the perspective he writes from.

[yawn] it's 0330. Goodnight.

hmm, awesome new blog to read through archives...

love the Goblin Dice post, perfectly describes why I dislike d20-like systems (and why I hated The One Ring system, single failed roll cuts you out of an entire scene)

@DavidCEllis yikes. That's a bad use of dice....

@waxeagle Yeah, example is that the opening to a scene where the party wants to discuss diplomatic matters with a neutral leader, everyone makes a persuasion roll to convince them to let you attend the discussion, if you fail, you just sit in a corner while the rest of the group spends 2 hours in the discussion (and this in a system that gives XP by success in a skill, so the rest get an additional 8 skill rolls to try for XP but the failing player is just screwed)

3 game sessions in a row we had at least one person in our group spend the entire session waiting for the rest to finish. I quit after that. GM was obsessed with Tolkien, but to me an awesome setting doesn't make up for a crappy system

@DavidCEllis blech, can see why you quit

@DavidCEllis Glad I never had the chance to play it, and I'm a bit of a Tolkein fan myself.

@ProfessorLokiCaprion Don't get me wrong, there's a ton of cool elements to it, and I highly recommend a read through if only for great ideas, but there's some serious RAW issues that you'd need to houserule around to make it a decently playable game.

@BESW Ex-tea-rmin-ate!

@DavidCEllis I'm more a setting guy than systems guy, at any rate! If I like the setting but not the system, I scrap the system for one I like better.

I've run Torg under three different systems, now!

Question - is the new 'leaving-player' tag really necessary? I'm undecided...

@Phil no

so how do we go about removing it given that someone's gone to all the trouble of adding it and editing questions to include it?

That'd fall under [Social] and/or [Players] wouldn't it?

@Phil roll back the edits

if people don't like it, it can go to meta

I might be a coward and post to meta before rolling back to make sure I have consensus

@Phil fine by me

I missed a bit of drama, haven't I?

RPG chat has drama?

@DampeS8N Hey I found the names of those books. One is the book of erotic fantasy and the other is the book of unlawful carnal knowledge.

@Aaron ... please continue.

@Phil Threw my opinion on there, for whatever it's worth!

@waxeagle I guess I was hoping for a 4e esque int thingy or simply being able to ignore a negative score for int and AC purposes

@JoshuaAslanSmith I don't think so

no exceptions for negative numbers.

gotcha

wis dump stat it is then

which totally makes sense character wise

since the PC is named after and a homage to Tannhauser of germanic myth

Aaah! StackOverflow's changed the look of the top bar. My cheese has moved! I fear change! I... oh, ok, got used to it. Carry on.

@AvnerShahar-Kashtan have you not seen it on mso for the last like 2 months?

@waxeagle Nope. Just got it today.

Prepare, for winter TopBars are coming.

actually if as you say in your answer its only skills saves and init I might dump dex

so long as that -1 does cancel out ac from heavy armor

Ill ask my dm just ot be sure

see how he would play it

It's much improved, I have to say. The old topbar (like I still have in RPG.SE and SciFi.SE and everywhere else) is cluttered and full on info I never need.

@JoshuaAslanSmith no, you don't add it at all. DEX doesn't apply to heavy armor users at all so it's safe to dump it.

@AvnerShahar-Kashtan Yeah it's pretty much 100% better. I just wish they would keep the subtle transparency that RPG.SE's topbar has.

For RPG.SE, that is.

@RedRiderX Yeah. SO's design is a lot more minimalistic so the solid black bar fits, but it'd be a shame to have it stomp over RPG.SE.

@waxeagle thanks I will use your arguments, if I have to dump wis (if he rules against it) then I shall (thought about con, but 10+con mod starting hp = 9hp for a paladin seemed rough)

@JoshuaAslanSmith don't do that. No one should dump con in next. at least not as of last time I read the playtest through

cuz yeah, not having Con is going to add up quick

oh yeah

theres no sweet salavation of Born under a bad sign etc.

@JoshuaAslanSmith I'd put one of your 14s under Con so you get that extra 2hp/level

unless this game isn't leveling up

itll be levels 1-3

so yeah

just posted a comment with the new stat distrib

lol @ CAH references: blog.stackoverflow.com/2013/12/a-new-top-bar-for-stack-exchange

cool beans

I can totally dig that

@waxeagle I caught that, too! Just saw it pop up on my Facebook feed

oh hey, I capped out today

speaking of which, I'm way overdue to hand out some bounties. Anyone have thoughts?

@waxeagle I have been sitting here for five minutes trying to think of a person to name for your bounty but am pulling a total blank.

@Aaron if you've got a pet question I'm happy to place one :)

and at this point I've got enough rep for a couple of substantial bounties

@waxeagle No I was trying to be funny and think of a real person.

@Aaron ah yeah, I'm cash poor so no help from me there :P

Ask something I can answer! :D

... which is... very little.

@ProfessorLokiCaprion what's your wheelhouse?

I started on this site about a month after I started playing table top games...expertise grows quickly

(or at least reputation does)

@DampeS8N Did you get the books?

@waxeagle I'm not very rulesy, more of a settings guy. Been playing RPGs for over 20 years, though, and running them for almost as long. I guess my specialties are OWoD and Torg, with some good knowledge of Scion in there.

@ProfessorLokiCaprion gotcha.

definitely

Well, I do keep scouring for questions I can be of some assistance on!

... also, is Emracool anything like Emrakul, the Aeon's Torn?

Hahah... I wanna slip that into my EDH deck, now.

My friends and I -do- sometimes have Unglued/Unhinged EDH games.

Haha... none of us are serious or competitive, so it works pretty well.

I concur! I never go to any events or organized things at the local gamestore because they're all so cutthroat about it. I play a game to have fun, not to... do... whatever it is they're doing.

I swear, I think someone nearly tableflipped last night at the Pokemon League (my Game of Thrones Tabletop RPG takes place the same night as Pokemon League... not the best scheduling...)

Kids playing Pokemon right next to where we're plotting murders and adulterous affairs.

And now I must leave work to head home!

Be seeing you!

New top bar is... interesting.

I think it broke the site a little.

@Emracool I disagree with this on the basis of "EDH turns are too much math, usually." I like the grace and simplicity of a Supreme Verdict.

gonna take a bit to get used to the meta bar

No link to chat in the new bar >_>

I already hate it

I was talking with a friend about Rainbow Servant PrC. 25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mc19qp5OyL1qbus0so1_500.png

So, main opinions on the toolbar: the contrast is a bit too low on the text and that inbox thingy feels lonely.

Where's the link to meta gone?

@Emracool So, I don't like particularly complex board states. Lots of creatures, lots of tokens/counters, lots of triggers, &c. The EDH "Awesome Turn" mentality is kinda all about those things. Like doing 300 damage with your pumped-up Saproling army or creating an almost-but-not-quite-infinite mana combo.

yeah, just found them

Yeah, I do kinda like interfering with people's plans. My idea of fun in multiplayer is basically an endlessly-recurred Nihil Spellbomb stomping on a graveyard deck forever.

@Emracool I hate comboes people can interfer with

Being interfered usually means I lose.

@Zachiel You need to play priority-less combos.

there's some blank area above the body of the site, below the top pic

not just a header change: english.stackexchange.com does not have this space

@AlexP doesn't really matter, I did what I always do when I can't get somewhere. I stop trying to go there.

@Zachiel Playing through disruption is the best, though! (Or, if you don't like that, try priority-less combos.)

@AlexP I stopped playing M:tG. And DotA. And LoL.

I become anxious when I lose no matter what

I want a game where my brain alone, with no hints, tips, help or need to train myself is enough to consistently win. This usually means single player.

Even if I only managed to complete The Witcher just because a friend of mine told me that the fire spell was the way.

whoah some strangeness, we've seen 2 populist badges awarded in the past month. That's pretty impressive