Discussion on answer by wizzwizz4: Aren't we all philosophical zombies?

Alex

21:00

But it's because I'd get scared from the blender's blades, and the "fear" part of my brain would force me to take actions to avoid it

If you'd tell me about the 5ms thing, I wouldn't get scared

wizzwizz4

What if it made scary noises?

Alex

I guess yes then?

It depends on the response of the emotional part of my brain

The emotional part is what influences the thinking part to take/avoid certain actions

wizzwizz4

If it was like the 5ms thing, but instead I put atoms in the position that they'd be in if I trained a new brain on all of your experiences, would you object?

Alex

Logically, no

Logically, I wouldn't mind dying at all

But emotionally, I might get scared

wizzwizz4

@Alex Why do you call this dying?

And why wouldn't you mind dying?

Alex

21:03

I'm not calling that dying

wizzwizz4

Why don't you call this dying?

Alex

I'm not calling it not dying

I'm calling it "it's in the fuzzy boundary"

wizzwizz4

Oh.

Yeah, to be honest that's a good place to put it.

Alex

Purely logically, what's wrong with dying? It's the same as anyone else in the world dying.

wizzwizz4

Which is bad.

Alex

21:04

The future might already exist though

wizzwizz4

And the people who've died aren't in it.

Alex

But if you only use logic, then it doesn't matter if anyone dies.

wizzwizz4

???

Alex

Nothing matters, because logic isn't for deciding that kind of stuff

wizzwizz4

Oh, you mean what I think of as "axioms".

Alex

21:05

It's for finding solutions to problems

Problems which are generated by the emotional part of the brain, for example

It's more complicated than that, but I'm not a neuroscientist

wizzwizz4

We don't have an "emotional part of the brain".

Alex

We do

Limbic system

The limbic system, also known as the paleomammalian cortex, is a set of brain structures located on both sides of the thalamus, immediately beneath the medial temporal lobe of the cerebrum primarily in the forebrain.It supports a variety of functions including emotion, behavior, motivation, long-term memory, and olfaction. Emotional life is largely housed in the limbic system, and it critically aids the formation of memories. With a primordial structure, the limbic system is involved in lower order emotional processing of input from sensory systems and consists of the amygdaloid nuclear complex...

wizzwizz4

Affective neuroscience

Affective neuroscience is the study of the neural mechanisms of emotion. This interdisciplinary field combines neuroscience with the psychological study of personality, emotion, and mood. The putative existence of 'basic emotions' and their defining attributes represents a long lasting and yet unsettled issue in psychology.Affective neuroscience developed at a time when cognitive neuroscience focused on non-emotional cognition, such as attention or memory. It might be called the cognitive neuroscience of emotions. However, when reading this article, please note that there are few references to...

> However, when reading this article, please note that there are few references to newer studies occurring after 2012 that have changed many of the perspectives in this article. For example, the section relating to emotions and the right hemisphere refer mainly to studies prior to 2006, and these models have been abandoned in favor of the new evidence showing interhemispheric connectivity and the role that the salience network plays in interpreting instinctual emotional responses to the world.

Alex

"It supports a variety of functions including emotion, behavior, motivation, long-term memory, and olfaction."

wizzwizz4

@Alex That statement can be applied to pretty much all of the brain.

Alex

21:08

People who have damage to the limbic system get depressed, lack motivation to do anything, etc.

wizzwizz4

It is involved in hormonal regulation; I think it contains some glands.

Alex

Damage to other areas causes memory problems, or speech problems, etc.

Anyway, that doesn't matter

wizzwizz4

> Damage to other areas causes memory problems,

Alex

Even if there is no specific part of the brain for "logic", it's still separate from "emotions"

wizzwizz4

Memory formation problems.

@Alex Why do you think that?

Alex

21:09

Logic, at least to me, is using logic rules to solve problems

wizzwizz4

Sure, we often describe it as separate, but does that mean it is?

@Alex Yeah, that's a branch of mathematics.

Alex

I want to do this, I know this. [... logic ...] So I should do this.

wizzwizz4

The process of logic is performed by the brain, and it's different from emotion.

Alex

the first part is what I call "emotions", the second "memories", the third "logic"

wizzwizz4

@Alex How aren't those just (useful) categories of thought?

I'm not saying emotions don't exist, but… it's like neurons and consciousness.

Alex

21:11

I'm not saying they're separate parts of the brain

wizzwizz4

Oh, okay. Never mind, then.

Useful distinctions are useful.

Alex

I'm saying that the "logic" category doesn't care about people dying

wizzwizz4

Okay, lost you again.

Alex

It just solves the problems given by the "motivation" and "emotion" category

wizzwizz4

Hang on. Are you saying it doesn't "care", because those categories of thought don't involve caring?

Alex

21:12

Yes

wizzwizz4

As in, by definition caring isn't logical?

Alex

Almost by definition

Logic is just problem solving to me

wizzwizz4

Implied by the definition, whatever. That, I have no objection to.

I keep conflating what you're saying with the wrong stuff other people use the same words to say.

We should invent a new language, where nobody says anything wrong so all the words mean right things.

Alex

Yeah :)

Or just stick to math where everything has a precise definition

wizzwizz4

See also: Objectivism.

(WARNING: do not get involved with Objectivism.)

Alex

21:14

Anyway, what I'm saying is that whether or not I'm ok with a certain form of "death/not-death" depends on my emotional response

I either immediately know I'm scared or I want to do it

wizzwizz4

@Alex Okay, but what should your emotional response be?

i.e. when should you care?

Alex

What do you mean what should it be?

For what goal?

wizzwizz4

For good things to happen and bad things to not happen.

Alex

The current response is what's best for the human race. The responses were selected through natural selection

"good things" depends again on an emotional response

wizzwizz4

lesswrong.com/posts/cSXZpvqpa9vbGGLtG/thou-art-godshatter

Thou Art Godshatter.

Your morality matters, regardless of where it came from.

(This is the first time that essay's been useful to me. I never really saw the reason he wrote it until now.)

Alex

21:18

If you give me specific examples of things, I'd be able to tell you "good" "bad" or "neutral"

wizzwizz4

You dying.

Alex

bad

wizzwizz4

Okay. So, you care about not dying.

Alex

Yes

wizzwizz4

Is that a goal of yours?

Alex

21:19

Yes, I intuitively know it's bad

If you ask me why, I'd start talking about neuroscience

wizzwizz4

So, when should you care that this thing will kill you?

(For some value of "this thing".)

Alex

always, if it will "kill me"

wizzwizz4

:-)

Alex

the reason I say "bad", is because of the word "dying"

or "kill"

wizzwizz4

So, does the 5ms thing kill you?

Alex

21:20

I associated that word with "bad"

wizzwizz4

You're regressing.

It doesn't matter why you care about not dying, for now.

Will this kill you?

Alex

I don't know

If I saw a button that would do that, I wouldn't press it

If it also gave me a million dollars, I would

Like, I'm not very scared of it

But I don't want to do it

wizzwizz4

If you did it once, would you do it again?

Alex

do it again for nothing in return?

no

wizzwizz4

Enough to make it worth thinking about, but not much.

Enough that you could get $100 in half an hour by spamming the button.

Alex

21:23

Probably

I probably wouldn't mind "dying" and being reassembled 10 years later either

It's just not something I'm instinctively scared of

wizzwizz4

Apart from people missing you and the world changing, of course.

Alex

Yeah, of course

wizzwizz4

But what about the memory thing?

Alex

But if everyone did it (let's say, we have to do this to prevent global warming), then I'd do it too rather than live alone

Memory thing?

You mean training a brain?

wizzwizz4

Destroy your brain, play your life experiences into a new one.

Alex

21:26

yeah, probably

it's a bit more scary

so it will take more

wizzwizz4

I wouldn't.

Alex

I'm just not very scared of it

wizzwizz4

Babies are different to each other.

Alex

Oh

Well if there wasn't a guarantee to be exactly the same

wizzwizz4

Womb experienced aren't all that different, so why are babies?

Alex

21:27

Then I wouldn't

wizzwizz4

@Alex What do you want to be exactly the same?

Alex

Everything I'm consciously aware of

Like, no lost memories, no problems with thinking ability, etc.

wizzwizz4

Are you aware of the process that brings memories to your attention when you try to remember stuff?

Alex

No

wizzwizz4

Would you be okay if it had different weighting (e.g. came up with different songs when you tried to think about songs)?

Alex

21:30

I don't know...

But what's the point of these questions? I could do this to you too, and pick worse/less worse forms of "death" depending on your answer until I find the fuzzy boundary

wizzwizz4

What about the process of recognising your friends?

Alex

For sure not

wizzwizz4

@Alex Except… in my experience, this isn't a fuzzy thing.

Alex

Would you do the 5ms thing?

wizzwizz4

Yes.

Alex

21:31

Would you do the 10 year thing?

wizzwizz4

Given the guarantees of exact placement.

Alex

(assuming everyone's still there)

wizzwizz4

Yes.

Well…

Heat death would be closer, but apart from that, yes.

Alex

Even if it involves putting your brain in a blender?

wizzwizz4

So long as the new one was identical, yes.

I'd lose… maybe a second?

I'd need a small incentive.

Alex

21:33

10$?

[just pretend I kept going up or down until I found the fuzzy area]

So it's a fuzzy thing for you too

wizzwizz4

Yeah.

But much sharper, I think.

I'm reluctant about a lot of things, like moving books that have been somewhere for a while, because that's Where They Go; it's that kind of reluctance.

I feel loyalty to my brain; that's all. Sentimentality.

Alex

Anyway, I have to go. Nice talking to you, and thanks for your answer

wizzwizz4

You too. Bye!

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Discussion on answer by wizzwizz4: Ar…