Chez Cosette

8:03 AM

0

Q: Le subjonctif sert-il à quelque chose?

Est-ce que l'on peut trouver des phrases où le subjonctif a un sens ? C'est-à-dire : me peut-on citer une ou plusieurs phrase(s) avec un verbe dont le choix de mode (subjonctive ou indicative) peut changer le sens de la phrase?

F'x

8:41 AM

repecmps, 上海

1 3

choix-de-mot vocabulaire phonetique linguistique

the account is suspended, the flags have been cleared (I don't see them in the tools page), but the two answers remain; should they be deleted?

@Unfrancophone « C'est important que vous êtes gentil » sonne mal à mes oreilles

je crois que la proximité avec la construction subjonctive fait qu'on n'emploie pas (ou rarement) l'indicatif comme ça

Un francophone

@Fx À moi aussi. Mais ça touche trop au cœur de la réponse de Jez pour que j'y touche.

@Fx J'ai un drapeau. C'est toi qui l'a levé ?

F'x

8:56 AM

@Unfrancophone où ça ?

sur les réponses de repecms, oui

Brennan Vincent

9:08 AM

@Fx, @Unfrancophone, y a-t-il d'autres phrases qui pourrait servir d'exemple ?

Puisque « il est important que vous êtes gentil » ne marche pas.

Un francophone

9:27 AM

@BrennanVincent Il est des contextes grammaticaux où le choix entre le subjonctif et l'indicatif relève du sens. Mais je ne trouve pas de paire minimale (où la seule différence est ce choix) où les deux versions sont naturelles.

Brennan Vincent

aïe, « me peut-on citer une ou plusieurs phrase(s) »

c'est une phrase grammaticale en français, ça ?

Un francophone

@Brennan, Peut-on me citer, me est lié à citer, pas à pouvoir.

Brennan Vincent

So I thought

let's be fair: it was past 1 AM when I asked the question :)

and I (practically) live in a Spanish-speaking country, et on sait qu'en espagnol les pronoms se baladent un peu partout dans la phrase

F'x

@BrennanVincent you live in AZ, right?

Brennan Vincent

@Fx oui

F'x

9:40 AM

@BrennanVincent ok, then it's a hyperbole :)

Brennan Vincent

The point is, I hear Spanish every single day, so it does tend to influence my French

F'x

but I was… hmm… let's say "interested" to read this this morning

politicalwire.com/archives/2011/09/03/…

there's still stuff I don't understand about the US political process

Brennan Vincent

same here

I'm very, very leftist (even by French standards) so don't expect me to defend what goes on in U.S. politics :)

well maybe in France I would only be "very leftist", not "very very" ;)

F'x

@BrennanVincent I don't expect people to defend their political systems in any way

otherwise, I wouldn't have any American, Italian or Russian friends anymore

hell, probably no French friends either :)

Brennan Vincent

@Fx: Well that makes you better than most

@Fx: in my experience, French people hold me personally responsible for everything from the global financial crisis to the U.S. waiting too long to enter World War II

(more hyperbole ;) )

F'x

9:44 AM

@BrennanVincent but I'm somewhat of a US politics junky, and even that news I found out of the ordinary this morning

Brennan Vincent

@Fx: what exactly do you find out of the ordinary? I'm sure you already knew that a laissez-faire attitude towards firearm distribution is a big part of American culture

F'x

well, I was in the US during the launch of the second Irak war, so yeah, I have some complaints about how people can treat you harsh for your countries' decisions

Brennan Vincent

ah, yeah, would have been a bad time to be French.

Do you speak English with a perceptible accent?

F'x

at least, I was in MA where most people I saw were antiwar; I had a French friend in TX at the time, she didn't have a nice year

Un francophone

@BrennanVincent The choice of the model is surprising.

F'x

9:47 AM

@BrennanVincent enough that Americans notice I'm not one of them, but discrete enough that they can't be more specific than "European"

Brennan Vincent

@Fx A common bumper sticker at the time: "First Iraq, next Chirac!"

F'x

@BrennanVincent but raising money through firearm sales, in Gifford's district? that's a whole different thing

but anyway, US politics is funnier than French politics for 2 reasons: 1. the arena (some would say: the circus) is bigger, so there are more interesting characters, 2. I doesn't affect my daily life, so I can laugh without bitterness

Brennan Vincent

@Fx: see, you're not thinking like an American conservative.

3

F'x

@BrennanVincent star that 10 times :)

Brennan Vincent

@Fx: "If more people carried guns, someone could have shot the gunman as soon as he started shooting, limiting the damage!"

I'm sure after enough time has passed so that it's no longer vulgar to do so, people will start using the tragedy in Norway to argue for widespread firearm carry.

F'x

9:50 AM

@BrennanVincent yeah, yeah, heard that, argued it, got no T-shirt

Brennan Vincent

You are clearly better at English than I am at French, but I think I probably speak with less accent.

F'x

have you lived in France or a francophone country?

Brennan Vincent

Which is nice; even people who know I'm foreign don't immediately think of me as such when I open my mouth.

@F'x: Yes, spent 10 months in France, I think I'm just naturally good at accents though

F'x

@BrennanVincent accents are completely unpredictable

I lived 6 months in the US long ago, then 1 year in London recently, and all the British guys still tell me I have something close to a Boston accent

go figure!

Brennan Vincent

@Fx On the other hand, someone with a foreign accent is much better off in America than in France

A lot (thankfully by no means all!) of French people have a very derisive attitude toward foreign accents.

Maybe I'm just biased in that judgment, though, since it's never been something I had to contend with in the States.

F'x

9:55 AM

@BrennanVincent I live in Paris, where this isn't so true (and I work in academia, also)

so anyway, I have a real question I wanted to ask a native: I am an avid fan of a show named The Colbert report, which I stumbled upon one day and got addicted too

Brennan Vincent

But the fact that one of the highest-grossing films ever in France has as its entire premise the idea that the northern patois is hilarious to make fun of, says a lot I think

okay

F'x

so, is that show popular in the US?

Brennan Vincent

(you probably know which one I'm talking about, but in case you don't : Bienvenue chez les ch'tis)

@Fx Among young people, yes.

F'x

I've never used TV and cable TV in the US, so I don't understand who receives what, and whether things are popular or not

Brennan Vincent

I'm 22 and virtually everyone I know who is around the same age has seen Colbert

My parents probably haven't though

F'x

9:58 AM

cause I mentioned it to a American professor, a colleague of mine (40, very liberal NY guy) who thought it was surprising that I watched it (I'm 30)

anyway, so it's more like a youth kind of thing

Brennan Vincent

Do you know why he found it surprising? It could because it's not something we would normally expect foreigners to understand.

F'x

well, I have to say that getting all the jokes requires a lot of concentration on my part

Brennan Vincent

The whole premise of the show is making fun of a breed of uneducated redneck conservative native to North America.

and it's pretty dense with cultural references.

F'x

yeah, but it's quite rooted in news, TV extract montages and such

we don't have the same in France, I think

Brennan Vincent

Well, you said yourself that you're a U.S. politics junkie, so it's natural that you'd understand it :)

F'x

10:01 AM

and the guy is quick-witted

Brennan Vincent

but I doubt the average French person would

I believe it only runs on a channel called "Comedy Central", which I'm sure you can guess is watched primarily by youth.

F'x

(wait, do you say quick-witted?)

Brennan Vincent

yes

F'x

good that English allows all sorted of contractions and word construction :)

Brennan Vincent

What would be the equivalent in French? Il a l'esprit vif?

F'x

10:02 AM

anyway, thanks for the background info

il a de la répartie

someone who always has a short, funny reply or comment to fire at you

Brennan Vincent

mmm

Evpok

@Fx The next best thing to cookies.

Alenanno

Hello everyone!

F'x

@Evpok cookies, bagels, onion rings, hamburgers, so many things to love in US food

hi @Alenanno!

Alenanno

Hey there :D

F'x

10:05 AM

but the only thing we imported on a large scale is StarBucks and McDonald's :(

Alenanno

I love Starbucks... Although I only went there once :D

Brennan Vincent

hi Alenanno

F'x

and, since recent times, Subway…

Alenanno

hey @BrennanVincent

Brennan Vincent

@Fx I was in France from July 14th to August 15th this summer

spent two days in Paris at the end of the trip. THERE IS A STARBUCKS IN THE LOUVRE MUSEUM

F'x

10:07 AM

StarBucks is the best place for you if: you're on the road, and you don't find a public library with internet access

@BrennanVincent didn't know, but totally worth the ALL CAPS :)

Brennan Vincent

what's next, Subway in the Eiffel Tower? McDonald's in the Elysée mansion?

Alenanno

I don't know if other European countries do, but Italy has no Starbucks :|

F'x

@BrennanVincent but there's an Apple Store too, so the balance of the Force is preserved :)

@Alenanno France resisted a long time, but the invasion set off a few years ago (while I was in the UK)

Brennan Vincent

I was amazed when I learned that Starbucks even existed in France

There is a café serving real coffee in even the tiniest hamlets in France

Starbucks coffee is disgusting

Alenanno

@Fx I went to a Starbucks when I was abroad... I honestly loved it. I didn't take coffee at the Starbucks... For that we have Espresso in Italy

Brennan Vincent

10:09 AM

Among American coffee shops, you could have found better than Starbucks.

Evpok

@F'x I love coffee shops, but sadly still none in Orleans :(

Brennan Vincent

My favorite is called Raging Sage, but that only exists in Tucson ;)

Alenanno

I mean, Starbucks is good for those "Mockachino" or how-it-is-called stuff

Brennan Vincent

true

F'x

@Evpok you mean, shops to buy coffee and mocca grains? or to drink?

Brennan Vincent

10:10 AM

I don't like any of that stuff, but I guess "de gustibus..." (I can never remember the rest of this proverb)

Alenanno

non disputandum est

Brennan Vincent

@Fx not sure if you're being facetious, but coffee shop is what we call places like Starbucks in Am.E

Alenanno

I think :D

Evpok

@Fx I meant Starbucks-like. For beans we have the best shop of France here :)

Brennan Vincent

@Alenanno: Are you Italian?

Alenanno

10:11 AM

@BrennanVincent yes I am

Brennan Vincent

I wish I could speak Italian.

F'x

@Evpok /me slaps himself on the face; beans, that was beans, not grains

Alenanno

@BrennanVincent Why don't you start learning it? :D (also consider committing to the Italian SE) :P

Brennan Vincent

@Alenanno: Pretty difficult to learn in Tucson

Italian speakers here are few and far between

F'x

@Alenanno the best reason not to speak Italian is that you don't need it: if you speak French slowly, and make hand gestures, everyone will understand you :)

Evpok

10:13 AM

@Fx \o/

F'x

of course, the same argument works for not learning French and Catalan if you speak Italian

Brennan Vincent

@Fx: A friend of mine worked in the Paris metro. She communicated with Italians by speaking Spanish.

F'x

@BrennanVincent Spanish, or Catalan? the latter is much closer

Brennan Vincent

@Fx I believe you, but she doesn't know any Catalan.

Alenanno

@BrennanVincent Well, you can learn it by yourself, there's plenty of material online... @Fx I love languages, so I learn them anyway :D

Brennan Vincent

10:14 AM

@Alenanno I want to focus on Spanish and Esperanto :)

Evpok

@Alenanno Where in Italy by the way?

F'x

@Alenanno I was joking, of course; the only reason I don't learn new languages is I suck at it

Brennan Vincent

@Alenanno And I can probably already read a fair bit of Italian just because of proximity to French and Spanish.

@Fx: False modesty?

F'x

there's like room in my brain for one foreign language, and I keep it for English

@BrennanVincent no, I tried to learn German, Guadelopean Créole, and Japanese, and failed miserably in all three cases

Alenanno

@BrennanVincent oh I see... I can't hide I don't really like Esperanto, also as a concept :D @Evpok Sardaigne @Fx Ahah ok... Well, if you really love a language, go for it!

Brennan Vincent

10:16 AM

Italian isn't foreign, it's just a slightly different Latin patois ;)

and in English we don't write creole with an accent

and we say Sardinia :)

Alenanno

Many things are similar... "Il n'y a qu'une voiture" - "Non c'è che una macchina"

F'x

@BrennanVincent when we gave it to you, it had an accent, so you'd better hurry to find it back

3

Alenanno

@BrennanVincent ah yeah I know, I used French sorry :D

F'x

@Alenanno pas très grave sur le forum FL&U :)

Evpok

@Alenanno Oh, little chance you know Furlan or Piemontèis :(

Brennan Vincent

10:18 AM

@Fx: Please. When we gave you "weekend" and "chewing gum" they didn't have hyphens. And can you please do something about that Godawful -ing in "shampooing"

3

(and its godawful pronunciation, pendant qu'on y est :) )

Evpok

I know nothing of sardinian, though :)

Alenanno

@Fx eheh :D @Evpok Furlan? You mean Friulan? No, I don't know them :) But I know Sardinian very well ahah

Evpok

@Alenanno Friulan e Furlan in Furlan :p

F'x

ok, gotta go, lunch to cook, kids to entertain

Alenanno

@Evpok ah didn't know it

@Fx see ya! Buon appetito

F'x

10:21 AM

see you all later!

Evpok

@Fx Bon courage :)

@Alenanno I don't know much of it, it's my grandfather's native language, but he prefers French

Brennan Vincent

salut @Fx

Alenanno

@Evpok oh, so you have italian blood? :D

Evpok

@Alenanno No, Furlan xD Yes indeed :)

Alenanno

xD

lol

Brennan Vincent

10:23 AM

@Alenanno: wasn't there a large degree of mixing during the time of the Roman empire? If so probably most French have Italian blood.

Evpok

@BrennanVincent Most French have blood of bloody everywhere.

Brennan Vincent

I see what you did there

Alenanno

@BrennanVincent well, there have been so many mixing through history...

Evpok

Native + Celtic + Germanic + Italian + Arab + Scandinavian + Slavic

Brennan Vincent

Native?

Evpok

10:24 AM

@BrennanVincent It's a pune, or a play on words

Brennan Vincent

What "Native"s are there besides Celtic and Germanic tribes?

@Evpok I know :)

Evpok

@BrennanVincent Obviously the guys that where here before the Celts

Alenanno

"the guys" :D

Brennan Vincent

Which was who?

Alenanno

That's a cool name for a population

Evpok

10:25 AM

@BrennanVincent Must be my German ancestors :p

Brennan Vincent

Astérix of course

Evpok

@BrennanVincent As far as I know, we don't have a clue.

Brennan Vincent

Australopithecus

Alenanno

That's going a bit back in time eh

:P

Evpok

"La présence humaine sur le territoire de la France actuelle remonte au Paléolithique inférieur ; les traces les plus anciennes de vie humaine datent d’il y a environ 1 800 000 anse 1. L’homme est alors confronté à un climat rude et variable, marqué par plusieurs ères glaciaires qui modifient son cadre de viee 1. La France compte un nombre important de grottes ornées du Paléolithique supérieur, dont l’une des plus célèbres est celle de Lascauxe 1 (Dordogne, -18 000 environ34).

Vers -10 000, à la fin de la dernière ère glaciaire, le climat s’adoucite 1. À partir de -7 000 environ, cette par…

M'vy

10:28 AM

@BrennanVincent j'ai éditer ma réponse. Je ne suis pas sur que c'est ça que tu cherches... mais j'aurai essayé

Evpok

Tl;dr : we don't have a clue

Brennan Vincent

@Mvy Bel exemple.

M'vy

Je crois cependant que la sémantique est varie beaucoup plus largement qu'avec le simple subjonctif

Mais je dois réviser mes cours de grammaire pour être sur :P

Brennan Vincent

est varie?

@Mvy En tout cas, tu as été le (la?) seul à donner une réponse convenable.

M'vy

varie :P

c'est l'edit qui a chié

Brennan Vincent

10:37 AM

Mais je vais attendre un peu avant de l'accepter pour voir si quelqu'un d'autre peut donner de meilleurs exemples.

Alenanno

11:38 AM

Je vais offline, à plus tard!

Joubarc

6:55 PM

Hé ben on dirait que j'ai raté un épisode historique de la beta de FL&U hier...

Un francophone

C'est pas un épisode des plus passionnants.

Joubarc

Je ne dis pas que ça m'a manqué, non plus :-)

F'x

7:10 PM

ciao tutti

@Joubarc idem pour moi

Joubarc

@Fx Pour toi c'est dommage on aurait pu voir tes talents de futur modérateur en action :-)

F'x

en l'occurence, sur le chat ça n'a pas posé pas de problème violent, et sur le site seule l'équipe à les pouvoirs pour l'instant

Joubarc

Ben oui

F'x

par contre, je ne comprends pas trop pourquoi il reste sur cette question deux réponses qui n'ont pas été supprimées

Joubarc

c'est dimanche :-/

F'x

7:16 PM

@Joubarc ça se saurait !

Joubarc

Cela dit quand on a vu la question la première fois ici, notre réaction à chaud a été "Ben, des voyelles, y'en a 5, tiens"; mais bon en 10 secondes il était clair que la question portait sur la phonétique

Bon ça aurait sans doute pas tué de rajouter le mot dans le titre, mais c'était pas franchement nécessaire non plus

Bien entendu, même si je n'aime pas la question, je vais pas pour autant insulter son poseur pour autant.

Minute... Ça se dit, un poseur de question?

Enfin peu importe, je n'étais pas là et je ne m'en porte pas plus mal, donc pas la peine que j'en parle.

Un francophone

@Joubarc Je dirais questionneur...

Gilles

@Fx C'est Jeff qui a traité les flags, apparemment. Je suppose qu'il ne parle pas français et que dans le doute il les a laissés

F'x

@Gilles il le fait en tant que créateur (au sens Area51) ?

parce que sinon, je ne crois pas qu'un seul 10k user puisse effacer un flag seul ; sauf si les règles sont différentes en beta

Gilles

7:31 PM

@Fx ?? Jeff Atwood, le fondateur de Stack Overflow et Stack Exchange avec Joel Spolsky

Joubarc

Si il y en a bien un qui sait tout faire ici, c'est lui

Le grand maître, quoi

Gilles

Tiens, bizarre, sur les autres sites il est l'utilisateur 1

Joubarc

Ha? c'est pas Community wiki le 1?

Gilles

@Joubarc non, Community = -1

F'x

@Gilles confusion Jeff/Jez, désolé

Joubarc

7:35 PM

@Fx quelqu'un a besoin de sommeil :-)

Gilles

Tiens, en fait ce n'est que sur la Trilogie que Jeff = 1

F'x

@Joubarc j'ai eu trop de cris de bébé cet après-midi, ça m'a vrillé le cerveau

Joubarc

Je compatis

F'x

je vais aller oublier ça et travailler mon anglais

Un francophone

@Fx Content d'avoir passé cette étape. J'ai les disputes des ex-bébés...

Joubarc

7:36 PM

N'empêche ici on passe directement de -1 à 2 : french.stackexchange.com/…

Gilles

@Fx Ouais, j'étais là, et je suis mod sur le chat (parce que les chats ne sont pas différenciés par sites), ça me démangeait de le suspendre mais il est resté à peu près poli

F'x

@Gilles j'ai vu ton intervention ; suggérer une bière avant 5pm, est-ce bien raisonnable ? :)

Gilles

@F'x Sur le site, je pense que tu seras mod dans quelques jours, tu pourras effacer ses réponses

Joubarc

@Fx En fait ça doit être un Belge déguisé, un vrai français aurait suggéré du vin.

F'x

bon, comme je disais, soyons sérieux, mon anglais rouille ; je vais regarder Doctor Who

Gilles

7:38 PM

@Fx It's always after 5pm in Iceland

F'x

à la revoyure !

Evpok

8:26 PM

Hey there!

Personne n'a de questions ? Le site fait tout mort.

F'x

8:59 PM

@Evpok week-end

Evpok

@F'x Indeed. Therefore beer.

And Monty Python

F'x

@Evpok TV serials and beer for me

\o/

see you

Yep :) Good night

11:26 PM

0

Q: Peut-on utiliser « ce » dans cette phrase?

Dans les commentaires de cette réponse, j'ai parlé de la correction de cette phrase: La transformation qui a conduit le français à cette situation pourrait correspondre à ce qui est expliqué sur Wikipedia. Après j'ai demandé pourquoi on a utilisé "ce", parce que ce mot concerne à "la transf...

genre pronoms

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