The Reading Room

Bookworm

03:15

0

Q: What are genres? Are they a useful concept?

We all have an intuitive idea of what a genre is. Science Fiction, Fantasy, Mystery... these are all examples of genres. But this intuitive understanding doesn't seem to easily translate into coherent definitions. It's easy to list books that qualify as Science Fiction; it's harder to explain why...

genre

Hamlet

04:43

@BESW

0

A: What are genres? Are they a useful concept?

Let's start with what genres aren't. When people debate the definition of say, Science Fiction, what makes these debates possible is the belief that an objective, correct definition of Science Fiction exists. However, the assumption that genres have objective, coherent definitions doesn't hold up...

It took me about an hour to write. It was prompted by the fact that you had made several really useful insights about genre, but the knowledge was stuck in chat, where it couldn't be found easily.

Let me know what you think.

I haven't actually proofread it, given that I wrote it so quickly, so you'll probably find lots of typos and things

I don't really care enough about the answer to find and quote an academic who's given a good definition of genre. I don't think it's particularly necessary, but we'll see what sorts of comments I'll get.

Also, I think I gave credit to where a specific idea came from you (as opposed to me reading between the lines of your comments). But if I missed anything, please let me know. And of course, this question/answer would not have existed if it weren't for all of the really insightful posts you've been leaving on chat.

Well, actually, if this were a question about well-defined categories in general, as opposed to genres, I would have been able to answer even had I not read anything you've posted on chat. But I wouldn't have had any interest in genre had you not existed, and I wouldn't have had exposure to some of the really cool examples you've been posting in chat.

So thanks!

Oh, and by the way, if anyone wants to convert any of the insights I post in chat/comments into a self-answered question... I would be ecstatic.

BESW

05:12

Nice.

Hamlet

@BESW thanks

I'm pretty sure that I may have tired-copied at least one instance of the phrasing you used in one of your comments.

BESW

A few fiddly bits:

"Genres are not created by academics or people objectively studying literature."
Well, yes, sometimes they are. If a genre hasn't required a name for marketing, it gets a name when an academic needs to talk about it in their essays. (["Science fiction" appears to be one of these.](http://www.sf-encyclopedia.com/entry/wilson_william))

With the rare exception of things like solarpunk, genres are defined post facto in recognition of an existing body of work--whether by critical analysts studying the phenomena, or by marketers identifying a new target audience.

...bah, silly editing timeout.

[shakes fist]

Hamlet

@BESW well, you had the opportunity to be a mod :)

BESW

Why bother when I can just prevail on my many green friends to amend my mistakes?

27

Q: When did the terms science fiction and sci-fi enter our vernacular?

I know there's some debate on exactly when "science fiction" itself became a genre, but I'm curious if anyone knows either 1) when the term science fiction was coined and 2) when sci-fi became accepted, too.

history terminology

Hamlet

@BESW and of course the Ngram answer is voted higher than the actual answer.

Because data is the best and never lies.

BESW

05:24

Of course. You get about half again as many upvotes for a scifi.se answer if you include a picture.

Hamlet

@BESW is that everything?

I'm probably going to fix this by removing rather than replacing, because I'm lazy.

BESW

I think "the existence of a genre is what causes the creation of works of literature" is accurate, inasmuch as many professional authors set out to write with the intent of appealing to a particular known, marketable audience (romance and horror authors are especially known for this). However, in the context of the answer it's perhaps misleading.

Solarpunk is an exceptional outlier and not a good example for the claim of "many cases."

Hamlet

@BESW yeah, you're right, I'll add another paragraph

BESW

You may want to separate that out into two bullet points; one saying that once a genre is codified authors begin to write for it, another that occasionally a genre is defined before it any clear examples of itself are actually written.

Hamlet

@BESW if you want to edit it...

BESW

05:38

Whoops, this didn't go through the first time:

Your first item might benefit from judicious application of the phrase "not mutually exclusive."

Hamlet

8

A: Why does Melville call Washington "General" rather than "President"

Checking the Google Ngrams viewer, from 1770 to 1900: We can see that "General Washington" was by far the most common appellation during the years Moby Dick was written and published. I am not an American, so I can only guess as to why this is: His role of the Commander-in-Chief of the ...

featuring "I'm not an American, but" here's some speculation.

BESW

Lovely.

...can mods see deleted questions on Stacks other than their own?

BESW

06:55

I've been thinking about book lists, and while I'd never make a list of books that everyone should read, or books that changed the world, or anything vast and sweeping like that, I may compose a list of books I'm very glad I've read and would eagerly recommend to my friends.

Gallifreyan

08:37

@BESW Nope.

Sorry, I had to.

Gallifreyan

08:50

Too few floofs in this room.

Gotta lighten up the mood.

Mithrandir

09:43

@BESW no, and that's very annoying, and I think that there's a feature request for it

12

Q: Should moderators be able to view deleted posts across network?

When dealing with a problematic user, it is beneficial to be able to see if they have behaved badly in general. Especially in the case of spammers, one of the greatest indicators that a post is promotional is if they are making similar posts across multiple sites, however, if other sites have re...

discussion feature-request moderation spam moderator-abilities

meta.stackexchange.com/questions/113912/… as well

BESW

10:16

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Gallifreyan

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I liked this one :D

BESW

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Gallifreyan

10:37

@BESW Don't!

BESW

If you insist.

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Gallifreyan

Yes, floofs good!

BESW

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Gallifreyan

Ok, you killed chat, @BESW.

BESW

10:53

I'm not proud. Or tired.

This is the sort of thing I usually just put in the Not A Bar.

Not a bar, but plays one on TV

I'm not a place to unwind after work, but I play one on TV.

1

Gallifreyan

11:09

Looks like a nice room :)

Mithrandir

11:19

...o_o

That's a lot of floofs.

Rand al'Thor

13:41

@BESW Yep, agreed - well, them and reading-order questions. That was my first point in the answer I'd written up about ID questions before the site even launched :-) One could make an argument that ID and reading-order are the only questions where we're actually helping people rather than just chatting about literature with them.

@Hamlet Please no. Tags should be more about the questions than the answers, relate more to what's being asked about than what kind of answers are expected. Many new users won't even know what close reading is in order to use it as a tag, and many people might post questions hoping for non-close-reading answers and only realise that their question can be solved by close reading once such an answer is posted.

We want people to be able to ask about the meaning of a passage and get an answer using either close reading or whatever else can be used to make a good answer. When you're asking a question, you often don't know what kind of technique will be most useful to answer it. Tags like close-reading would do more harm than good IMO.

Mithrandir

Unless you're asking about the process of close reading itself.

Rand al'Thor

Right, but I don't think that's what Hamlet meant in the message I was replying to.

@Hamlet (1) I was complimenting your question, along with an upvote; not sure why you're reacting as if it was an attack. (2) I mentioned the part about having originally thought it was a bad question in order to encourage other potential downvoters to have the same realisation. [cont]

[cont] It's much more educational to have a comment "I thought this was bad because X, but actually it's good because Y" than just "This is good because Y", which will leave people who think X still thinking X and perhaps downvoting. I think my constructive and positive comment should be undeleted so that it can encourage others to realise that it's a good question and not a bad one.

@Hamlet You should really meet user14111 some day :-) He's probably one of the only real "sci-fi experts" on SFF, as opposed to experts in a few specific franchises like HP, SW, ST, DW, etc., and he almost exclusively answers story-ID questions.

@Hamlet Maybe a lurker from M&TV?

@Gallifreyan Can we try not to carp at other SE sites like that? If you have reason to dislike another site, you can express it constructively - they're too harsh on X-type questions, or they have too many Y-type answers, or whatever. But throwing out comments like "<site> is a dump" just creates hostility without trying to improve any of the issues with it.

Gallifreyan

14:03

I wasn't trying to improve any issues with it, but noted.

Gallifreyan

16:10

@Shokhet Someone made a fan live action adaptation of "24 Hours", the 6th issue of The Sandman.

Long John Silver

17:45

8

Q: Why does Night say Desire and Morpheus are alike?

In The Sandman: Overture #5, Morpheus speaks with Night while paying a "social visit". There, Night claims Morpheus and Desire are very much alike: Click for the full resolution I tend to agree with Morpheus on this one. It is true that he acted dumbly by dooming Nada to Hell; he has other q...

character-analysis comics neil-gaiman the-sandman

Hamlet

19:09

@Randal'Thor I'm not familiar with user14111, yes. But again, I get the sense that we're using the word "expert" in very different ways.

Someone can be an expert and enjoy answering story-id questions, yes. But story-id questions do not demonstrate expertness, and do not represent expert-tasks, unless your expertise is answering story-id questions.

Hamlet

19:29

Look, I'm sorry, but that is my position, and I doubt you're going to convince me.

Gallifreyan

@Hamlet For most of the story-ID questions you're right, but that user is very much like a librarian when it comes to written fiction, and is very well-versed in obscure works.

Hamlet

@Gallifreyan so they're an expert in answering story-id questions?

Gallifreyan

Yes, I could say that.

Hamlet

Which is fine, but that doesn't mean someone is an expert in literature.

Gallifreyan

Unless the story in question is literature ;)

Hamlet

19:35

@Randal'Thor well, personally, I would be less likely to ask questions if I knew they were going to be downvoted if they didn't receive a good answer. I've noticed that it's the case that a lot of my questions don't get upvoted unless they receive an answer, and my guess is that this is because people aren't familiar with the topic and don't want to make hasty judgements. I don't mind this.

@Gallifreyan that has nothing to do with what I'm saying.

Gallifreyan

And what are you saying?

Mithrandir

He's an expert in that he knows very well a lot of stories.

Hamlet

@Hamlet however, if someone downvoted my questions for this reason... So personally, I don't think citing this as a legitimate reason for downvoting something is a good idea. But if you feel it's the best way to communicate your message...

@Mithrandir yes, and in my opinion this does not constitute being an expert in the field of literature.

@BESW we have a tumblr if you need a place to host such content :)

Bookworm

20:36

0

Q: What is the origin of Endless' lettering styles in "The Sandman"?

In the prologue of Season of Mists (the fifth volume), a family reunion occurs and the six Endless siblings are formally introduced, and have speaking roles: As shown, each has a unique lettering style, which encompasses not only the letters but also the shape and colour of the speech baloons....

comics the-sandman todd-klein

BESW

21:47

Thread:

Question: in which YA/children's books (any era) does it prove important, even vital, to know the names & ways of n… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/892349218303737856

Tweeted by RobGMacfarlane on August 1, 2017 at 11:40 AM

Ooh #favechidrenslit ? My indispensables: Kidnapped, Secret Garden, Little White Horse, Horse and His Boy https://t.co/LYqxK2s2Jz

Tweeted by sydneypadua on August 1, 2017 at 7:06 PM

Tier two: King of the Wind, The Borrowers, Phantom Tollbooth, Harriet the Spy https://t.co/3x4Xe1yHh6

Tweeted by sydneypadua on August 1, 2017 at 7:11 PM in reply to sydneypadua

Mithrandir

@BESW ooh, I've read all of those, and two if not three of the first one

Always nice to see titles that I recognize ;)

BESW

I'm pretty sure I've read all except Little White Horse.

Also, thread on most influential book of Sydney Padua's childhood:

Once I would have said my most influential #favechidrenslit was no contest Asterix In Belgium, which I vividly recall devouring age 6 or 7

Tweeted by sydneypadua on August 1, 2017 at 7:18 PM

(Padua is an animator who's worked on films including The Iron Giant and the most recent CGI Jungle Book. She is also author/illustrator of the heartwarming, hilarious, and ridiculously well-researched comic The Thrilling Adventures of Lovelace and Babbage.)

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Shokhet

22:31

@Gallifreyan Might take a look later, but...why that one? I didn't really like that one :/

Bit too hardcore for me

Not a bar, but plays one on TV

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