The Reading Room

12:03 AM

@HDE226868 Well, I've finally found enough time to piece together all those pieces of information from many different links and provide an answer to your Rhun question. What do you reckon?

Rand al'Thor

12:24 AM

Fun fact: @Hamlet is by far our grumpiest user in terms of downvotes.

fi12, amaranth, and Ash also have more downvotes than upvotes.

Matrim Cauthon

@Randal'Thor 300 down votes is quite a lot

Rand al'Thor

@MatrimCauthon Especially when it's two-thirds of his total votes.

HDE 226868

@Randal'Thor I saw it and gave you the first upvote there. Nice answer. Thanks.

Hamlet

1:11 AM

@Randal'Thor I don't think anyone is surprised.

That said, I'm not sure how accurate those numbers are. According to my profile, I've cast 273 downvotes: your link has me at 335 downvotes.

(I'm at 182 upvotes, which is more than your link has me at).

But the mod tools have me at 47 / -89, which can't be right.

@Randal'Thor technically I'm at 56% downvotes.

I think part of the reason is just that I'm more consistent with my downvotes. And there have been times when I've been nicer with my votes than a lot of the community members of this site

For example, I didn't downvote this recommendation question: literature.stackexchange.com/questions/2262/…

However, I'm definitely more critical when it comes to answers. I try to leave comments when I downvote so people know what to improve.

IDK just some random musings about my voting patterns.

Matrim Cauthon

1:33 AM

@Hamlet I wonder whether votes you cast on meta are being ignored by one of the systems.

Matrim Cauthon

1:48 AM

@Hamlet regarding your point about not down voting the recommendation question, it seems like you are taking pride in not gratuitously down voting something that at last check was already at minus 4

Hamlet

1:59 AM

@MatrimCauthon when I closed the recommendation question, no one had voted on it...

@MatrimCauthon maybe. (If you're interested, I have 138 downvotes on meta, and 108 upvotes on meta).

user15026

@Randal'Thor I'm not really surprised by that

user15026

(mind you my overall number of votes is pretty small)

Hamlet

@BESW @Ash I would also like to see that.

For example, the Maya codices are folding books, meaning that you can read the pages in different orders, etc.

I've seen some really interesting stuff done with interactive fiction.

For example, the game Unmanned is a story about a drone operator(is that the correct word?). However, through the structure of the game the reader experiences what the main character's life feels like (boredom, repetitive tasks, disembodied violence, etc.)

But unfortunately I haven't seen much interactive fiction that accomplishes this.

I've been meaning to find time to create my own game, but it's hard to come up with ideas and bring my ideas into the real world.

I guess Invisible Cities kind of counts as such a book. The great thing about it is that while you can go really deep with the analysis, it also is just beautiful writing, and can be appreciated on aesthetic grounds without having to think too much.

Shokhet

2:37 AM

Your images are broken (sorry, I don't think we have a post on Literature Meta about it yet. — Shokhet 27 secs ago

...anyone think that we need to make one?

I'm pretty sure that we don't have one, because literature.meta.stackexchange.com/search?q=image+is%3Aq didn't return anything useful

I have no idea how to find out how many broken picture our site has

...this should work...

...and didn't find anything. Am I doing something wrong?

Oh, I see. That post didn't have any http images. Apparently, none do on Lit. Oops...

Is anybody else not seeing the images in literature.stackexchange.com/a/2019/481?

user15026

Images work for me

Shokhet

Huh. Maybe I need to let Chrome do that update.

...I see the images here just fine, though. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Hamlet

4:38 AM

Question: think it's worth changing song-lyrics to lyrics? Paging @Randal'Thor our resident tagging expert.

Hamlet

4:53 AM

Also, tempted to tag my Kendrick questions with poetry.

@Randal'Thor my position on the symbolism tag is that we first need to clean the tag up so we actually know what it accomplishes. Then we can discuss making it a synonym etc.

I would clean the tag up myself, but I don't really care enough to want to defend my definition of symbolism.

Bookworm

0

Q: Why is the introduction different for the video and streaming versions of Lamar's Humble?

The video version of Kendrick Lamar's single Humble begins with the following three lines: Wicked or weakness You gotta see this Waaaaay (yeah, yeah!) However, the version of the song on streaming sites like spotify opens with three different lines: Nobody pray for me It's been th...

Hamlet

Anyway, I made a meta post about what purpose the symbolism tag should have on the site, which will hopefully prompt some discussion.

Librarian

5:09 AM

0

Q: Is it worth changing [song-lyrics] to [lyrics]?

This site currently has a song-lyrics tag with about ten questions. However, it seems to me that the "song" part of "song lyrics" is redundant; the word lyrics implies that the question is about a song. Is it worth changing song-lyrics to lyrics?

discussion tags retag-request

0

Q: What should the symbolism tag be used for?

In a recent meta post about the symbolism tag, Rand makes the point that way the tag is currently being used is very broad: ... but we've been using symbolism in a very broad way. Our questions tagged with symbolism include not only ones about symbolic objects (e.g. What does the sukebin...

discussion tags

user15026

5:49 AM

Have read 133 books this year. That's about 1.4 books a day. Which is kinda neat.

Hamlet

@Ash stop making me jealous!

Mithrandir

7:58 AM

@Ash :O

VicAche

8:15 AM

@DForck42 Sorry but can't see a better use of this tag. I think we should have tags as close to possible to day-to-day English use, rather than using jargon/technical terms when not needed

Bookworm

10:07 AM

0

Q: Sci-Fi Short Story Identification - Life Saving Weight Loss

I recall a short story I read in High School. We read it in English class so it was likely published in an anthology intended for use in schools. (This was in Scotland in the 1970's if that helps.) The story begins, I think, with a robot being programmed to collect an example of every type of fau...

story-identification

Rand al'Thor

10:44 AM

@Hamlet Data.SE only updates once a week, so that would explain why your most recent votes aren't counted there. I can't see how it would list more downvotes than you've actually cast though.

@Hamlet Not sure where you're looking; I just checked your profile and it says 343 downvotes.

Mithrandir

Bleurgh, Lit meta won't load :/

Rand al'Thor

@Hamlet That's probably a good thing. Too many people are unwilling to downvote answers because of losing the 1 rep (sounds ridiculous, especially for people with thousands of rep points, but there you go).

AFAIR, very few of my answers have had downvotes, and you or someone else has usually told me why :-)

Questions are a different matter, but I tend to take lone question downvotes less seriously.

@Shokhet We only had two broken images when the HTTP -> HTTPS change happened, and I fixed them both.

Also, the images in that post you commented on don't look broken to me.

@Hamlet Ooh, I didn't know I was a resident tagging expert :-) At first I was going to say "make it so", but then I thought, well, we're not losing anything by having a slightly longer tag name, and it may even help for clarity. There might be people who think all poetry counts as lyrics, but they'd be less likely to call it song lyrics. I'll put up an answer on meta.

Also, good call on making a meta post about the use of symbolism. Let's hope we can get some sensible suggestions and a coherent consensus there.

Rand al'Thor

11:21 AM

Hmm, well, I like @VicAche's answer, but then what they're saying in the comments seems to go directly against the spirit of their answer.

Rand al'Thor

11:40 AM

@Mithrandir That tag wiki excerpt wasn't much use: it's obvious that a tag called inspiration will be for questions about inspiration, and "e.g. you could ask about the inspiration behind this, that, or the other" doesn't add much unless those "this, that and the other" are non-obvious things to ask about.

VicAche

@Randal'Thor First thing first, a fundamental SE principle is to judge content per se, regardless of authorship/what the author has said elsewhere

Mithrandir

@Randal'Thor funnily enough, I have no recollection of creating that o_o It doesn't even seem to be in the style that I would write it. Thanks for editing it.

VicAche

@Randal'Thor Secondly, I really think you're making an error in reading my answer. We can use technical terms yet avoid jargon. Jargon is the use of non technical terms to convey technical meanings, and I think on a site with an expected broad audience, we should avoid it at all cost

Rand al'Thor

@VicAche Right, but if you're saying something completely different in the comments from what I'm reading your answer as, then it's more likely that I'm misinterpreting your answer somehow than that you're being completely inconsistent on the very same page.

Which is why I haven't voted on your answer yet. It may not be saying what I think it's saying.

Another HNQ!

VicAche

@Randal'Thor "symbol" is something we use in our day to day life. No way "allegory" fits in this category. "Allegory" has a defined, unambiguous meaning as a representation. Think Uncle Sam: it's not saying Americans are rich, it's not saying they are white-haired or implying they're old. It's just an allegory of America/Cans

Uncle Sam is no symbol of America, the dollar or the burger may be. Find something that you believe is both an allegory and a symbol and we can try to discuss this further.

Rand al'Thor

11:47 AM

@VicAche But if you're using the words "Uncle Sam" or a picture of Uncle Sam as an allegory for the United States, then those words or that picture are representing more than their literal meaning, which is precisely how you want to define symbolism.

Yes, as you say, allegory is a representation. And you're also proposing to define symbolism as a representation.

VicAche

@Randal'Thor In symbolism, more would mean (something else additionally to x) while in allegory it means (something totally different than x instead of)

The fact that you can write both definitions using the same world does not mean they are the same word!

Rand al'Thor

@VicAche OK, so the distinction you're drawing is that in symbolism the non-literal meaning is in addition to the literal one while in allegory it's instead of the literal one?

I'll have to think about whether or not I agree with that, but at least I understand what you're saying now :-)

Does this question need retagging? I was browsing through the inspiration questions, and this one seems to be more about realism than inspiration.

Not sure if this or this should be tagged inspiration either ...

VicAche

@Randal'Thor the basic implication of this is that allegories are generally obvious (and should not make for much questions in a homogeneous cultural setting: one will ask about an allegory when reading an old/foreign book but not a present/local book) while symbols are much more widely subject to discussion, interpretation and questions. We need specialists to be able to focus on allegory questions.

BESW

12:03 PM

Isaac Asimov died 25 years ago today. He was a good egg. https://t.co/xr5OTNaQDW

Tweeted by LettersOfNote on April 6, 2017 at 12:01 PM

Umm.

Generally speaking a symbol is an element of a story, while the story itself is an allegory.

Rand al'Thor

@BESW Right, that was my understanding: that the difference is mainly about the breadth of the metaphor, whether it's a single object or a whole story that represents something else.

BESW

An allegory is a kind of work which, through its narrative, contains a "hidden" or subtextual theme; a symbol is a thing which represents another thing. Symbols don't contain themes, and allegories aren't stand-ins for other things.

The Chronicles of Narnia are Biblical allegory; they don't represent the Bible, they comment on it by re-framing familiar symbols (which represent Biblical elements) in new ways to expose particular themes.

But I think this is all moot for tagging.

VicAche

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/allegory
You're talking about definition 2., I'm talking about definition 1. The second can be linked to symbolism, I can't see how the first would

BESW

Not sure what you're arguing there. I'm saying that, like your definition 1 says, allegory is about commentary (meaning, treatment of a subject) beyond simply having one thing stand in for another.

See also Merriam Webster, etc.

But I do think it's a narrow needle to thread between making useful distinctions and making tagging a barrier to users unfamiliar with academic terminology.

As always I'd err toward how our users are using the tags.

Rand al'Thor

12:20 PM

@BESW Which is "very broadly", as far as I can tell.

We've got symbolism questions about the symbolic meaning of objects, names, events, changes, and even entire stories.

BESW

If that's the level our site's at, okay. RPG.SE used [fate] and [fate-core] pretty much interchangeably for years and it hasn't made enough of a problem to squawk about until a couple days ago.

VicAche

@BESW That works only if you actually let users use the tags they prefer

Which for now is not the case on this website

BESW

Aye, well. My thoughts on that are well documented and appear to be a minority dissenting opinion.

VicAche

@BESW Agree, but it so happens that tags are heavily influenced by moderation on this website @Mithrandir

Mithrandir

@VicAche ?

The tags develop, and when there's a problem, we head to meta.

VicAche

12:26 PM

@Mithrandir We were discussing the relative use of [symbolism] and [allegory], I think it's quite hard to find an example here. Do we?

Mithrandir

@VicAche I'm just not sure what you think this has to do with moderation...

VicAche

4

A: Alternate meaning of "still" in 'Ode to a Nightingale'

It could mean Would you sing if you were dead (still, motionless)? This allusion to stillness is reinforced by the above: While thou art pouring forth thy soul abroad In such an ecstasy! Ode to a Nightingale, verses 57 and 58 (just above the one the OP mentioned)

(don't know why that link is to the answer, was trying to link to your edit on the question)

Mithrandir

@VicAche Why add [allusions]? The wiki excerpt says "Use this tag when asking for sources of a reference in books," which is not something that this question is doing. — Shokhet 17 hours ago

BESW

I think there's a sense that lit.se's moderators may have an overdeveloped sensitivity to what actually constitutes a problem worth formal action (including calling for a meta discussion), vs something that should be allowed to play out.

VicAche

@Mithrandir "@Shokhet I think we should modify the wiki excerpt" "The question has nothing to do with allusions" => yet both answers had to explain what an allusion was + explain that this was what implied by "2 meanings" in the comment

Rand al'Thor

12:31 PM

@Mithrandir @Shokhet I haven't checked this particular one, but in general, a lot of our tag wiki excerpts aren't much good and shouldn't be taken too seriously.

Because Benjamin went crazy with edits and created loads of wiki excerpts for tags which only had one or two questions and no clear usage pattern yet.

BESW

I've yet to see any site with more quality tag wikis than poor ones. Even sites that wiki assiduously tend to describe the subject without commenting on the tag's use cases.

VicAche

@Randal'Thor I have nothing against reflecting on a more coherent policy for tags, but yes, I do use tags and no, I don't understand why a single flaming user should imply an edit reversion

BESW

Good tag wikis are hard.

VicAche

I also think it's much to early to engage in tag wars and that, anything that "reasonably' can be tagged as (a) should be tagged as (a) if a user having sufficient rep to do so decides to.

Mithrandir

Because the question wasn't asking about allusions, specifically.

BESW

12:35 PM

lit.se citizens need space to make mistakes, establish trends, and learn from experience. Helicopter moderation doesn't cultivate a vibrant, participatory community--quite the opposite.

VicAche

@Mithrandir It was but was not doing so consciously

@Mithrandir See the answer here for example: gamedev.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/1545/…

@Mithrandir "As a site, our primary value is in our answers (the questions are basically SEO for finding the answers). When there is a high-quality answer on a question -- whether or not it's the question the original poster was actually trying to ask -- I'd argue that our priority should always be to protect the answer, not the original poster's intent."

Rand al'Thor

@BESW Yes, this is true. There've been a few times Hamlet has been tearing his hair out over what he saw as a major problem, which went away naturally a few days later; some of my top posts on Puzzling meta have been telling Emrakul "no, calm down, you don't need such a drastic measure to deal with <problem>"; and of course Mithrandir always needs to be told "patience, my young padawan". But at least they're all open to improvements and don't think they're always right.

@BESW Helicopter moderation?

BESW

@VicAche On RPG.SE we frequently get questions which don't mention the system they're using--a very important thing! Often people can guess what system is meant, but we strongly discourage tagging based on guesses; instead we close as unclear and ask the OP to edit in the system.

This is for two reasons: first, it gives the OP an easy close-and-reopen experience which enforces good question-writing practices; second, those guesses are sometimes quite wrong and then a lot of effort is wasted on totally useless answers.

@Randal'Thor Swooping in and fixing problems before the site can learn from the experience of having a problem, and in turn preventing the site from developing an identity beyond the moderators' own.

VicAche

@BESW I tend to agree with this on principle (and it is inline with the answer referred), but for minor changes and given the slowness of the close and reopen on small, beta SE, I think we can do without when OP's intent is consensual among answers and comments

Rand al'Thor

@BESW Right, yes. I've heard it said that beta mods often need to play a bigger role in shaping the site, whereas elected mods can sit back and let the community handle stuff. That might be true on beta sites with very little activity, where the mods are actually a significant proportion of the active users, but it's probably less true here, where there are so many committed people.

Out of curiosity, were you on RPG.SE during beta, or did you only join when it was already a mature site?

doppelgreener

12:47 PM

@BESW And maintaining them as good is also hard, since they tend to get invalidated without people noticing by changes in circumstance, site policy, or even how the tag is used.

@VicAche (did you mean to use "consensual" there? doesn't seem like it fits)

VicAche

@doppelgreener probably a misuse but: if there is a consensus among answerers. The "among answerers" part is crucial here...

BESW

@Randal'Thor I joined in the first year after graduation, I believe. I've participated in other betas, and I've talked extensively with citizens and moderators about the ups and downs of RPG.SE's beta and its impact on the site going forward.

Gallifreyan

@Ash How is this even possible? How can you still be alive?

Librarian

0

Q: What should the [setting] tag be used for?

We have a tag setting with 7 questions so far: one, two, three asking about whether places in a story can be connected to real locations; one asking about when a particular story was set; one asking about the realism of a feat described in a book; one asking about ethnic diversity in a fictiona...

discussion tags

BESW

@Gallifreyan I'm going to assume they were mostly Leo Lionni books, just to salve my own ego.

Gallifreyan

12:54 PM

@BESW Hmm... Do monthly comic issues count as books? I must have read hundreds.

BESW

@Gallifreyan Yes, but if you read trades then each trade is just one. [grin] Metrics are only as good as their assumptions.

doppelgreener

@BESW Hmm. The site's very first question was asked in August 2010. You joined in September 2012, I joined in January 2011. I'm not sure when it graduated but it was still in beta during Dec 2011. You might've even joined the same year it graduated!

(Weird. I don't even remember a time when the site didn't have its current design.)

VicAche

@doppelgreener rpg.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/1192/… For sure it graduated >=2012

doppelgreener

Ah, that'd be because I only became active in July 2012 and it might've graduated in April 2012.

Rand al'Thor

@doppelgreener You're user #1204 and you only joined five months after the site started? Well, Literature is certainly doing well at attracting users! We already have more than 1204 users here after only two and a half months.

doppelgreener

1:00 PM

@Randal'Thor Well it was also 7 years ago, when the Stack network was a little smaller. :D From what I can tell, RPG.SE was one of the first non-programmer sites.

BESW

We were lucky to inherit some folks who cut their teeth on the early days of Christianity.se.

doppelgreener

Our chat bot, The Oracle, has ID -6, which makes it the earliest custom feeds bot.

(Except, possibly, for the no-longer-existent mysterious -4)

BESW

@doppelgreener [scribbles notes for ARRPG antagonist]

doppelgreener

@BESW :D!

BESW

1:16 PM

@doppelgreener Now I'm thinking about other potential digital antagonists like MISSINGNO and the Corrupted Blood incident.

doppelgreener

@BESW That's amazing!

Corrupted Blood incident

The Corrupted Blood incident was a virtual plague in the MMORPG World of Warcraft, which began on September 13, 2005, and lasted for one week. The epidemic began with the introduction of the new raid Zul'Gurub and its end boss Hakkar the Soulflayer. When confronted and attacked, Hakkar would cast a hit point-draining and highly contagious debuff spell called Corrupted Blood on players. The spell, intended to last only seconds and function only within the new area of Zul'Gurub, soon spread across the virtual world by way of an oversight that allowed pets and minions to take the affliction out of...

This is so good.

BESW

Yeah, the Corrupted Blood incident was before my time but had a lasting impact on the game. And I was there for the Great Zombie Plague, which was well-intentioned but very poorly designed and executed.

doppelgreener

I was there for someone kiting an Infernal back to Orgrimmar from some extremely high-level area where players ganged up to try to take it down.

BESW

I remember a few times that happened before they instituted hard leashes.

Oh, and... [rummages for name]

Hah, Captain Placeholder. He was a temporary solution to cross-continental travel before all the boat paths were implemented.

doppelgreener

1:39 PM

@BESW Cute. But now, who knows where Captain Placeholder, Eo, and Noteo are...

I like that they had Captain Eo, but were concerned about possible legal trouble over the name, so renamed him to Captain Noteo.

DForck42

mornin

Mithrandir

1:55 PM

@DForck42 afternoon

DForck42

@Mithrandir sup?

Mithrandir

@DForck42 procrastinating.

DForck42

@Mithrandir same

my new phone came in, gonna set it up during lunch

Mithrandir

Just don't mix up the phone with your lunch! ;P

DForck42

@Mithrandir lol

Librarian

4:18 PM

0

Q: A user (super?)ping is showing up incorrectly in the chat star list

This message by Rand al'Thor is starred in Literature chat: In the sidebar it looks like this: I imagine that should say @E.Bob not @@1208@literature.stackexchange.com. Turns out I can ping people with that second format though! I got curious about the significance of that "1208"; turns ou...

bug chat

Hamlet

4:46 PM

@Randal'Thor you can view the number of downvotes on peoples' profiles? Where can you do that?

I was getting the numbers from the votes tab

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