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12:12 AM
@Randal'Thor again, "People aren't motivated by increasing the number of questions per day. They'll force themselves to ask some questions, but then they'll see that asking a few questions doesn't magically increase the number, so they'll stop". By people I mean anyone, whether they care about the site or whether they don't. I care about the site and want it to succeed, but I know from experience with past beta sites that I'll ask a few questions, see that the number stays the same, and be done.
However, if I'm in the mindset where I'm reading a book and thinking about all the interesting conversations I can have about that book on Stack Exchange, well then, you're going to get four or five questions from me for every book I read, and I'm not going to get frustrated or burned out; I'm going to be excited by all the cool answers I get.
 
12:59 AM
I very much doubt that Rand is really worrying about anything to begin with, rather than simply being happy about every new good question that's posted. I'm not sure people are maybe making a little too much of a statement that just meant "new good questions are nice", which I doubt anyone could seriously construe as a negative one.
Even if the questions per day stat means nothing for any serious considerations, new questions are, well, still cool, ya know.
 
user15026
1:53 AM
user image
5
 
user15026
This poem is so well put together.
 
@Ash I want to hear someone sing this.
 
user15026
@Randal'Thor Just saying it out loud is so pleasing because they nailed the cadence
 
@NapoleonWilson Well, I was worrying slightly about the fact that we hardly got any new questions for a few days.
@Ash Speaking of which ... @BESW damn you for putting me onto Reginald Pikedevant's Youtube videos! :-) I think I'm addicted to them now.
 
@Randal'Thor Well, okay then.
 
2:27 AM
@Randal'Thor I'm going to have to resist clicking for the next two weeks bc I have so much work
 
@Hamlet The funny thing is there aren't even very many of them. I've just been watching over and over again.
 
 
2 hours later…
4:07 AM
Anyone who's read Sandman? ...I just finished Preludes and Nocturnes. On the back of the book, it says that P&L "is the first volume of eleven in THE SANDMAN LIBRARY. These books can be read in order or as individual volumes."
...opinions? ...should I read all of them? in order? Skip any particular volumes? Other?
(This probably wouldn't make for a good question. This one is entirely opinion based, I think)
@Gallifreyan ^^^^
You're the only pingable asker of a Lit.SE Sandman question :)
 
4:36 AM
@Shokhet I'm reading Sandman right now. I can't say I particularly enjoy it; I'm reading it for a friend who likes comic books, and sandman is the only comic book I was able to get into
If you're going to read them, IDK you might as well read them in order.
who is staring things? as far as I can tell I'm the only active person here.
I'm not really sure how I would rank sandman on a good/bad scale yet, but I haven't really noticed any big differences in quality between books
 
user15026
I never finished all of them but I would suggest reading them in order, if you plan to read them all anyhow
 
7:32 AM
The one thing about Sandman order is, if you might read just one, it should probably be World's End.
Otherwise publication order's probably the way to go.
World's End is a good stand-alone sampler of the Sandman experience without spoiling anything really important or needing any context from prior issues.
 
7:48 AM
@Shokhet you could ask which volumes can be read as standalone works, and I could probably answer that one. But if you ask me, reading them in order is probably best (note that their arrangement in paperbacks is not the same as their issue publication order, if memory serves). You'll still have to go back and read previous volumes to recall previous interactions with some characters - I certainly did.
I admired how some characters from volume I suddenly pop out in later volumes, or become central. The interweaving is very intricate. And after you finish the volumes, you can read Overture, or Lucifer, or _Endless Nights. The latter has some of my favourite stories, especially the one about Desire and Dream (which you can read without reading other works, by the way)
 
@BESW wombat ^_^
Wombats are in a sense better than koalas they are bigger, so easier to hug, and they are not as few in numbers, so easier to obtain one.
 
@Gallifreyan Spunky amateur mycologist vs enraged ancient fungus god, apparently.
@Gallifreyan Wombats can also crush a foe's skull with their butt.
 
@BESW so they can replace not just koalas, but also guard dogs? And cats, I imagine
 
Their rears are padded with at least an inch of callous. One of their responses to being attacked is to go head-first into a burrow, then crush the predator's skull against the side of the tunnel with their butt when it follows them in.
(The "Mortal Wombat" jokes have already been made.)
 
8:06 AM
@BESW Ok, I need one. Make it two, in fact.
 
@Hamlet @Randal'Thor @Standback done.
 
 
3 hours later…
11:15 AM
0
Q: Reference request: Explications of Keats' poems

AirdishWhat are some online resources that provide professional explications of Keats' poems? By explication I mean: a discussion of themes analysis of literary devices and their effects In particular I am not looking for any essays which are primarily biographical or regarding some social issue and...

 
11:39 AM
Hello...
 
12:19 PM
@ABcDexter hello...
Chat isn't so active at this time of day.
 
1:00 PM
*yawn*
Even quieter than usual today.
0_o
I'm talking to myself...
 
and we're all watching you do that
 
*stares* It's another person...
@Ash go take care of what I just flagged on Pets :P
 
user15026
@Mithrandir please don't use unrelated chats in this way.
 
user15026
Also, there is no flag that I can see so it got handled. As flags do.
 
@Mithrandir Flags aren't just handled by mods. They're handled by any and all 10k users anywhere on chat
*and especially not just mods of the related site
 
1:13 PM
@Ash Why? I was half kidding, and it's perfectly normal from what I've seen for some people to do that. If you don't like it, okay, but I think that it's not a bad thing, really.
@Shokhet it wasn't chat.
@Ash as I said above: I was kidding, hence the :P.
 
@Mithrandir Oh, my apologies. Ash mentioned chat, so I assumed...
 
I see that people can't tell when I'm not being super serious. I guess I have to work on that...
*sigh*
So, since humor failed: what's the book that you were last reading?
 
Poe's law is an adage that states that, without a clear indicator of the author's intent, it is impossible to create a parody of extreme views so obviously exaggerated that it cannot be mistaken by some readers or viewers as a sincere expression of the parodied views. The original statement of the adage, by Nathan Poe, was: Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is utterly impossible to parody a Creationist in such a way that someone won't mistake for the genuine article. == History == "Poe's law" was originally written by Nathan Poe in 2005, in a post on christianforums...
@Mithrandir Sandman Preludes and Nocturnes. I'm in the middle of the second Mistborn book
You?
Thanks for the Sandman suggestions, everyone :) (@Ash @Hamlet @BESW)
 
@Shokhet Israel and the Dead Sea Scrolls, by Edmund Wilson.
Still in the middle.
 
@Gallifreyan Okay. Good to know. ...
@Mithrandir Nice
 
user15026
1:22 PM
I started A Natural History of Dragons last night before bed. I am also reading Digger.
 
user15026
@Shokhet I liked the Mistborn books. They're my favorite of what I have read of Sanderson.
 
@Gallifreyan Right. That'd probably be on topic, but it wouldn't be a very good question. According to the publishers, every one can be read standalone.
 
1:51 PM
@Mithrandir (cc @Ash) I finished Sanderson's novella The Emperor's Soul the other day and in terms of his writing, it's my favourite so far (although I preferred Mistborn for the overall plot and worldbuilding). I haven't read any Stormlight stuff yet though (that's next on the list)
 
@MartinEnder y'know, I answered a Mistborn question on SFF, but I've never read them...
 
 
2 hours later…
3:36 PM
@tombquestwiki I should be able to carve out some time for that. About how long should the answer be?
The author has said that he can probably write an answer here! :D
 
@Mithrandir :(
 
@Hamlet why :(?
 
The thing is, answers need to have evidence. An answer can't just say x, y, z without evidence
 
You don't think he'll provide evidence?
 
I would worry that he would just use the fact that he is the author to support his points
Which is kind of like me saying "I am an expert on [topic x], believe what I say"
 
3:52 PM
@Hamlet well you'd need evidence, but he's the flippin' author
 
user15026
@Hamlet well, if you have empirical proof you are such an expert then why shouldn't I take that as an answer
 
FWIW, Incognito Google searching for the term 'why did art spiegelman use cats' brings up my question as fourth on the list.
 
4:15 PM
@Ash cause that's not the Stack Exchange philosophy. If it was we would have features like verified profiles, etc.
@Gallifreyan it also goes against established precedent on meta
7
Q: Should we treat critics' opinions higher in answers?

DVKThe question arose out of this Meta answer and comments on it. Should we, as a rule, consider the question's answer to be higher quality if it's based on an opinion of a literature critic? (assume that either the critic's opinion, or a competing answer's non-critic-based one, have the same amou...

 
This is a different kind of question that what that's focusing on, though.
 
@Hamlet but he's the author. If the authors thinks his works are connected to the game - that's a "word of god".
 
@Gallifreyan I don't care who he is. If he doesn't give any evidence to back it up, then I'm downvoting it.
 
That meta is not suitable for authors' opinions.
 
@Gallifreyan they're both experts.
 
4:22 PM
@Gallifreyan he won't think. He'll know.
 
8
Q: Deal with "famous" profiles (and the possibility of fakes)

JamesI'm starting now to use the Stack Exchange sites and didn't find any discussion about this issue. Imagine the hypothetical situation: I'm trying to contribute to the Linux Kernel. I find some trouble and ask for help in Stack Overflow (or Programmers, Unix & Linux, etc). My question is a yes/...

 
In this case, I specifically asked him to come write an answer. Unless you have reason to assume his Twitter profile was compromised...
 
@Mithrandir read the meta
> Wrong. That's not what Stack Exchange is for! Explanation is vital for a good answer. And even the most famous developers of systems, and even the inventors of those systems, can be wrong sometimes. If they fail to explain themselves, they deserve downvotes. If they only post a one-word or one-line answer, they probably deserve a NAA flag. Who cares if they're famous if they're not willing to be productive members of the SE community?
 
Do you want me to ask him to make sure to include some sources in his answer? He asked how long; I said a couple paragraphs.
 
@Hamlet I'm not saying he won't/shouldn't provide reasoning or evidence. I'm saying that an answer by the author is a separate type of answer that has its own niche.
 
4:29 PM
> I don't mean to doubt you, but one of our moderators is worried that you won't provide backup for your answer, such as screenshots. D'you mind including a couple screenshots and possibly some quotes from the books (if you're willing)? Thanks, and once again thanks for coming to write an answer!
...That's possibly too long.
Waaay too long.
 
@Mithrandir I just wouldn't say anything. He'll either write an answer or he'll forget
And maybe it will be a good answer, with lots of evidence. In which case I'll have been ranting about nothing.
 
We'll see.
Incidentally, if he does, it'll be the second time the author has shown up to answer my question :P
 
@Mithrandir What was the first?
 
2
Q: Does it have to be those two spells, or would any combination of "impossible" spells work?

MithrandirIn the July/August 2012 issue of The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction, they ran a story entitled "Wearaway and Flambeau" by Matthew Hughes. In it, Hurdevant puts two spells on Raffalon: Ixtlix's Sprightly Wearaway and Chunt's Descending Flambeau. When they are used in combination with a tr...

 
@Mithrandir that's a nice answer to support @Hamlet's argument :D
 
4:37 PM
Yes, it was deleted as NAA at first...
 
Hehe :D
 
Already there ;)
 
4:52 PM
2
Q: Should answers from authors be treated differently from other answers?

HamletMithrandir asked a question about the TombQuest series, and the author of the series offered to come write an answer. Should answers written by authors be treated differently from normal answers on this site?

 
@Mithrandir I'm surprised. Not first?
....actually, it came up 7th for me. 9th if I added the word "Maus"
 
Try Incognito mode/private browsing.
 
I did
Actually, if I searched the exact terms you posted, your question was 5th
 
0
A: Should answers from authors be treated differently from other answers?

MithrandirIf they provide a reason to believe that they actually are who they claim to be, then we treat it as if it were an interview or other statement by the author. If the person who is answering can provide a reason to believe that they are who they claim to be, then we can believe them. In this case...

 
5:44 PM
@Joshua Engel thanks for the edit, first time I feel an edit changes everything!
 
@VicAche Just FYI, he won't get that ping, as he hasn't been in chat. Sorry.
 
Yes I realized that after posting.
Anyhow just seemed right to thank him, and too promotional to also link to the answer...
 
@VicAche If he made an edit you can ping him in comments there
 
@Mithrandir yes
 
5:52 PM
@Gallifreyan And then have the comment flagged as 'Too Chatty'
 
@Mithrandir That's fine, so long as Josh sees it first
 
@Gallifreyan I prefer to keep the comments related to visible content of the post, not history of edits, except if edits seem shady
@Mithrandir when you right an answer with four publications displaying author's name on your desk and somehow decide to spell it differently :P
 
@Mithrandir I think you and @Hamlet are talking about different issues when it comes to answers by authors. You're mainly concerned with the author stating their intention, a topic about which they of course have absolute authority. But I think Hamlet is getting at cases where the author makes claims about the analysis of their work without proving that analysis based on the text itself.
[insert blurb about intentional fallacy]
 
@MartinEnder ...But analysis doesn't matter in this case...
 
@MartinEnder totally disagree on author having authority on stating their intention ex-post! Think the aforementioned Eco, or Sartre, for notable opposing view about this.
 
5:55 PM
@Mithrandir I'm not saying it does.
 
Yes; so I'm saying, treat it like an interview, and we get into this question.
Just because it was posted here doesn't make it more - or less - affirmative than any other quote by the author.
 
I'm not even disagreeing with you. I just felt like you and Hamlet haven't really been discussing the same problem, so I thought I'd try to get you on the same page in case you weren't.
 
@Mithrandir It makes it less affirmative if there is doubt on the veracity of authorship, but this is irrelevant in the given case
 
@MartinEnder Agreed. I'm going to try to write up an answer which covers more of the different facets of this issue.
 
3
Q: Did Frodo want Bilbo to die?

anonymous2I was reading in the first volume of the Lord of the Rings recently, and ran across this quote when Gandalf and Frodo are talking about the Ring for the first time after its true nature has been discovered. "There wasn’t any permanent harm done, was there?" asked Frodo anxiously. "He would ge...

 
5:59 PM
@Bookworm I guess he just hoped that he wouldn't become like Gollum...
@Randal'Thor I look forwards to it.
@VicAche Exactly - I'm saying that posting here isn't different from any other quote, except for the problem of verification.
 
@Mithrandir Which is exactly why I think you're talking about a different problem than Hamlet. I don't think Hamlet is concerned with whether the user is actually the author or where they make their claim, but the fact that the author is not the ultimate authority on all questions about their work unless they back up their claims like anyone else.
 
And I think I'm saying that in a case like this - not in an analysis question - the fact that they are the author is enough proof. In an analysis question, yes, they shouldn't be treated differetly.
I have to go now, I'll try to continue this coversation later
 
6:15 PM
@Mithrandir That's fine, but the meta-discussion isn't particularly useful if one person is talking about a specific case and one is talking about the general situation. I think you're defending a point that Hamlet isn't even attacking.
Anyway, looking forward to Rand's answer, maybe that'll clear things up.
 
@MartinEnder I had that exact same thought. But no, I'm not talking about the debate about intentionality here. I just don't think the Stack Exchange platform is designed for interviews with authors or other experts. CC @Mithrandir @Randal'Thor
 
6:35 PM
@Hamlet @Mithrandir @MartinEnder Posted my answer:
0
A: Should answers from authors be treated differently from other answers?

Rand al'ThorThis is a complex and multi-faceted issue, and I'm probably not going to be able to (maybe I'm not even qualified to) cover all aspects of it, but here goes. I think an answer from an author should be judged on its own merits to some degree, but we should also bear in mind that it's from the aut...

I'm kind of rushed, so I'll probably come back and improve this answer later - maybe add some more examples of potential Q&A we might see from authors, to demonstrate my points.
 
Oh, is this the drum-off?
 
@MartinEnder Haven't watched it to the end yet
 
HNQ:
8
Q: Did Frodo want Bilbo to die?

anonymous2I was reading in the first volume of the Lord of the Rings recently, and ran across this quote when Gandalf and Frodo are talking about the Ring for the first time after its true nature has been discovered. "There wasn’t any permanent harm done, was there?" asked Frodo anxiously. "He would ge...

 
8:06 PM
2
Q: Why does John Winthrop compare the Massachusetts Bay Colonists to "a city upon a hill"?

HamletJohn Winthrop's sermon "A Model of Christian Charity" (which you can read online) is an extraordinarily famous sermon, which is referenced by American politicians to this day. In this sermon, John Winthrop compares the American colonists to "a city upon a hill": We shall find that the God of...

 
8:35 PM
Native Writers’ Circle of the Americas will give 2016 Lifetime Achievement Award to Trudell and Northrup… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/843838453301346304
 
9:20 PM
We've been getting more HNQs lately. That's good.
 
9:31 PM
= blank comment.
 
?
 
zwsp?
 
zwsp?
 
9:36 PM
... What?
 
user15026
9:58 PM
I wasn't going to answer that author meta but then my comment just kept getting longer...
 
10:10 PM
@Ash There you go, have an upvote.
I'm not entirely satisfied with my answer there. It was a bit stream-of-consciousnessy, and I think I could improve the layout a lot, make it clearer, have a TL;DR and some headlines. Hopefully I'll find time to do that sooner rather than later.
 
user15026
Most of my meta answers end up being kinda word-vomit-ish but I hope it made sense
 
I also need to find time to read @Hamlet's links about online community building, although I'm already starting to see his point of view in our discussion from yesterday.
Ideally, the incentive for asking questions here should be because you've read a book and have a question you want to know the answer to. That's ultimately where most of our questions should come from. But at this early stage, when the burden is on relatively few of us to build up a site which more people will come to, I still think asking questions for the sake of asking questions (as long as they're good questions, of course) is fine.
 
I know that this isn't an accurate sampling of the site, but is anyone against posting the first topic challenge?
 
@Mithrandir I was going to wait until next week.
If we're going to have monthly challenges, might as well start them on the 1st of the month.
We could announce the challenge a little in advance to give people time to prepare and to acquire the book, but perhaps not this far in advance.
 
@Randal'Thor I wasn't trying to say that posting questions for the sake of raising activity is bad (provided of course that they're good questions). I was just trying to say that it's not the best way to persuade others.
 
10:19 PM
@Hamlet Not even the other active users who're committed to helping the site grow?
 
user15026
@Randal'Thor We could do it maybe a week in advance, and then start it the 1st?
 
@Randal'Thor yep.
 
I mean, of course I wouldn't use that to try to persuade new people to join the site. But for the people in chat, who're already committed to Lit, "hey, we need more questions" could make sense as an incentive.
 
user15026
So announce it like...Monday (because we're quiet on weekends it seems, like many sites) and then start it the 1st of April?
 
What's going to happen is people are going to post questions, see that the number remains the same, and give up.
 
user15026
10:20 PM
@Hamlet See what number remains the same?
 
@Ash APRIL FOOL!
 
@Ash the number of questions per day
 
user15026
@Mithrandir Okay, maybe April 2nd then
 
@Ash Sounds like a good plan.
 
user15026
@Hamlet That's not the be all and end all of things, though
 
user15026
10:20 PM
It's just one statistic to consider.
 
@Hamlet It won't though, if people actually do commit to posting, say, a question every day.
 
@Ash that is the point I was making to Rand
@Randal'Thor people won't follow through
 
user15026
I mean yes, more questions on more topics means more possible eyes
 
user15026
@Hamlet But if one or two people do, that's a start
 
Read the links and get back to me later
 
user15026
10:21 PM
I don't think there is a magic bullet here
 
@Randal'Thor I tried for a bit. Decided I didn't want to post terrible questions, so scrapped the idea.
 
@Hamlet Yeah, will do.
@Mithrandir Of course, all this is based on the assumption that the questions being posted under the "need more questions" incentive are actually good.
 
user15026
I think we're getting a little too hung up on the whole growing our community thing
 
user15026
Like I'm not saying we shouldn't try stuff, but we should really focus on getting content and such that will draw people and keep them
 
user15026
because most other things will get momentary attention, but likely will be a low long term ROI
 
user15026
10:32 PM
So maybe for some people that means wanting to post more questions per day. Great, if those are good quality things that will catch us some of that delicious search engine juice, go for it. Other people might approach it differently. I don't think there is One True Way to do it.
 
user15026
I think my main question at this point, is what is the end goal? What do we want to see out of this push for activity?
 
@Ash Republic Of Ireland?
 
user15026
@Randal'Thor Return on investment, sorry
 
@Ash look, I completely agree with you
 
user15026
I'm assuming there is an "except" or "but" coming - I'm just curious what people want to see happen, that's all.
 
10:36 PM
The point I'm trying to make was that posting chat messages about a low question per day number on the weekend isn't the best way to do things. So no, there is no except or but. You are 100% right.
 
user15026
@Hamlet haha yeah we are kinda quiet on the weekends :)
 
user15026
Too busy reading then ;)
 
@Ash Fair enough.
Posting more questions, solving more unanswered ones, casting more votes ... all of these and more could be ways of helping site growth.
So the moral of the story is "shut up, Rand" :-P
2
 
You kind of bumped into the conversation late; essentially I was saying that if Rand wants to increase the amount of activity, then he needs a different message, which is counter intuitive because I'm sure he's thinking that "I want to increase the QPD, the number increases if people post more questions, let's encourage everyone to post more questions." But counter intuitively that doesn't work.
 
user15026
@Randal'Thor Aww, no not at all! I love your dedication. I just don't want people to stress out, this should be a fun thing :)
 
10:39 PM
And then I gave him some links to read up on.
 
Since it's been tomorrow for ~45 minutes, I'm going to sleep. Zzz... Adieu, amigos!
 
11:17 PM
0
Q: What's the symbolism in The Twelve Days of Christmas?

Rand al'ThorThe popular Christmas song "The Twelve Days of Christmas" has many different versions, but they're usually something along the lines of the following (final verse, which includes all the others): On the twelfth day of Christmas my true love sent to me: Twelve drummers drumming, Eleven pip...

 
11:37 PM
@Bookworm Ouch. Are the downvotes because people think songs shouldn't be on-topic, or because the answer is somehow obvious, or what?
 
@Randal'Thor It's because you reminded everyone of a Christmas song that's generally (in my mind) considered to be annoying and repetitive... on the first day of spring... and then want people to make sense of it.
 
user15026
@Randal'Thor Possibly because it's a well known song, so it's likely been studied to death and it's possible the info is like super available?
 
user15026
Like if I just do a quick google, there's loads of info
 
user15026
so we're kinda just likely going to retread already well trodden ground
 
10
Q: Should we embrace non-Googlers?

BESWCommon Stack Network policy is to embrace non-Googlers. The Stack Exchange wants to be a place Google sends folks, not a place that sends folks to Google. Unfortunately, many sites and some of our users feel the downvote reason "does not show any research effort" is synonymous with "did not try ...

 
So because we should "embrace non-Googlers" we should ignore the "doesn't show research" part of the downvote arrow explanation?
 
@Catija Oh, I never thought of it as so unpopular.
@Catija See, that could be turned into a good answer.
 
Mostly that was a joke... but I do find it to be annoying and overly long. My favorite versions of it (other than the versions where it's not done) are the versions where they only actually do 5-6 of the actual verses.
 

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