The Reading Room

user15026

12:06 AM

@Randal'Thor you asked for a reason, I gave you one. I'm not arguing the correctness of it, when I state stuff like this I am just posting reasons, I don't really mean to argue one view over another

Rand al'Thor

@Ash Sure. I was posting that link as a response to the possible reason you provided, not as a response to your posting of that reason :-)

If that makes sense.

Hamlet

I didn't downvote, but I think the question also is a little bit broad

Rand al'Thor

@Hamlet How could I improve it?

user15026

@Randal'Thor I get you :)

Bookworm

1:01 AM

0

Q: Story ID: Person longs for neighbor's apples, is disappointed

I just can't quite remember a short story about a person who wanted to eat their neighbor's apples, which were growing within the confines of their gated yard. I recall that the apples were described as being red and large, but having a terrible taste when the person finally gets to them. The st...

story-identification

A J

1:22 AM

Don't know if someone mentioned or not.

It's World Poetry Day.

6

Napoleon Wilson

Oh.

A J

Name your favorite poet.

Napoleon Wilson

Me, of course!

Hamlet

1:46 AM

@Randal'Thor maybe make the question about a specific part of the song? IDK I didn't downvote, and to be honest I think it's unfair that you were downvoted. I haven't decided if the question is worth upvoting yet, but it isn't worth downvoting IMHO.

The reason Latin is a dead language is because they kept accidentally summoning demons during regular conversations

Tweeted by iscoff on August 10, 2015 at 2:58 PM

Shokhet

2:01 AM

Does anyone think we need one of these here? I don't think that story-identification is becoming a problem, but I do think that a canonical advice post people can link to when others ask ID questions can be useful

@AJ Cool!

Hamlet

2:14 AM

@Shokhet If you think such a meta question is helpful, then create it! No need to ask anyone's permission in this case.

Of course, I would be really tempted to write the following snarky answer: "Step 1: don't ask story-id questions."

Shokhet

@Hamlet Fair enough

Hamlet

(Please don't turn that comment into a debate about whether story-id questions are appropriate for the site.)

Shokhet

@Hamlet Don't forget -- that's the curse of carrying a diamond :p

Hamlet

@Shokhet it's so annoying!

Shokhet

@Hamlet I can imagine....

Hamlet

2:18 AM

@Shokhet get a change to read the Ayn Rand stuff yet?

A J

@NapoleonWilson lol. You write poems other than Hikus?

Shokhet

@Hamlet No, actually. It's all open in like 20 different tabs in different windows in a dedicated workspace. I WILL get to it eventually.

Hamlet

cool, ping me when you do

Napoleon Wilson

@AJ So...haikus aren't enough, I suppose? o_O

(But I wasn't too serious anyway.) ;-)

Shokhet

@Hamlet Sure thing

A J

2:22 AM

Hehe

@NapoleonWilson I was just wondering if you write other than Hikus.

Napoleon Wilson

@AJ Rarely ever. I did a few in school, or maybe on special occasions, or little free-styles in everyday sitations. But nothing serious at all.

(In fact I wouldn't call myself a poet at all.)

A J

Ok

@NapoleonWilson I wrote one as kid that got published in local magazine.

Napoleon Wilson

Yes. In fact, she wrote some for me, and they're totally awesome.

@AJ Oh, cool.

A J

Nice.

@Randal'Thor Are you into poetry?

Rand al'Thor

2:54 AM

@AJ A bit, but I wouldn't call myself much of a connoisseur, especially compared to a lot of the people on this site.

3

That's as a consumer of poetry. I've written quite a lot of poetry myself, in the form of riddles (as you probably know, being active on Puzzling).

A J

3:09 AM

@Randal'Thor Yes, I know. That's why I asked.

Rand al'Thor

> Poetry flows forth as if from a spring
When you are inspired to make a nice thing.
It isn't quite necessary to make it all rhyme,
But it improves the aesthetic, if you have the time.

I write rather briefly, to show I can do it,
This isn't my best; please don't hiss or boo it.
Just a quick dirty poem, made up in a minute,
But it's great to hear your opinions, innit?

3

@AJ There you go.

A J

Nice one

Gallifreyan

5:20 AM

Another answer by author (or so he claims to be):

1

A: Did the beast do this in The Physics of the Dead?

Hart, after receiving his vision of the dying man's life and realising how much he owed Bowler, ran to find Bowler's (or in this case Bowler's broken form.) It was Hart carried brought Bowler to the exit so that Bowler could leave. As for the Beast's plan, it was simply to torment Hart once Bowl...

@Hamlet ^^^

Hamlet

5:33 AM

This answer is exactly why answers by authors shouldn't be treated differently from any other answers. I have no way of verifying that this person is who they say they are, because the Stack Exchange system isn't designed for answers that require that the author's identity be verified.

Hamlet

6:13 AM

How does this comment look

Hi Luke, welcome to the site. We unfortunately don't have a way of verifying that you are who you say you are. I am therefore going to pretend that this answer came from a normal user of the site. Answers need to be supported by evidence. However, if you add a quote from the passage "The Beast says all this to Bowler", then as far as I am concerned this answer will be sufficiently supported by evidence. — Hamlet ♦ 35 mins ago

CC @Randal'Thor @Gallifreyan @BESW @Mithrandir @everyone else in the discussion who I am forgetting right now

BESW

@Hamlet That sounds about right. No answer, no matter how correct, is hurt by support and explanation.

If the author is saying "This is what I say in my book," they can point at where they say it.

If the author is saying "This is what I imply in my book," they can point at where they imply it.

If the author is saying "This is what I had in mind but there isn't anything in the book about," well... [expansive shrug] "If it's not in frame, it doesn't exist." A good answer might discuss how it informed the story indirectly, why it was left out of the text, etc.

Hamlet

@BESW Speaking as a moderator here, I don't think any of the answers on the meta post give me any clear guidance as to what I should do with these author answers.

What if they say that they're the author but they provide no evidence? What if they verify themselves if they tweet a link to their Stack Exchange profile.

BESW

I'm honestly having a hard time seeing how they can't be treated the same as any other experience-based answerer on a Stack site.

There's no process for ANY stack to "prove" an experience-based answer is written by someone with the experience.

That's why experience-based answers aren't accepted if they're just "I did this you should too."

user61230

The neutral position is that answers should never get special treatment on the authority of the person who posted them. If discussions on meta lead elsewhere, that's totally fine, though.

Hamlet

@BESW yeah, but there's a difference between "I made a table, here is my experience" and "I wrote Harry Potter, here is my experience."

BESW

6:26 AM

@Hamlet Then, perhaps, we are discovering that the Stack structure is not suitable for questions which would somehow prioritise a particular unprovable-but-necessary-to-prove demographic's contributions.

I don't think that's the case, I think the lesson is a different one.

But it's something we need to consider and reject consciously instead of letting it stand as a begged question.

Hamlet

@BESW I absolutely think it's the case "that the Stack structure is not suitable for questions which would somehow prioritise a particular unprovable-but-necessary-to-prove demographic's contributions."

BESW

I think it's just a case of holding authors rigorously to the network's experience-based-answer guidelines.

Will that tick off some authors? Yes. When RPG developers show up on RPG.SE and don't offer support for their statements, we hold them accountable and some of them depart in a huff (which is not a kind of carriage).

user61230

Authors don't have primacy over meaning just because they're the author.

Hamlet

Here's my edited answer:

-1

A: Should answers from authors be treated differently from other answers?

No. Answers by authors should be treated exactly the same as answers by normal community members. The fact that the community member claims to be the author (whether that claim can be verified or not) should have no bearing on how we evaluate the answer. We don't have features like verified prof...

Where I deliberately make it more unpopular

BESW

@Emrakul I think there's value in giving authors primary authority over the act of writing their text, but not over the act of consuming their text

And it's still totally an experience-based thing. "I did this, because this, this is how it turned out, here's why I think this is useful to share."

user61230

6:30 AM

Yeah, that's what I mean. They have the power to write the story however they'd like; they don't have primacy in interpreting its meaning.

user61230

They do have primacy in interpreting intent.

BESW

And that's where the intentional fallacy comes into play: it's confusing the intent of the author with the text their intent produced.

Hamlet

@BESW curious about how RPG handles things. So if I create an account and say "I am the author of this RPG system, when I was creating it my intention was [x,y,z]", would that be a valid answer [on RPG, not this site]?

user61230

(Though it's occasionally true that the "accepted" reason an author wrote something is not the reason the author claims to have done so.)

Hamlet

@BESW if it's not acceptable, then what additional information would authors have to provide?

BESW

6:33 AM

[rummages for examples]

(eg, I totally believe that Cooper intended a sympathetic portrayal of Native American life and culture. The text fails at fulfilling this intent in many ways.)

31

A: Is Fate Accelerated Edition lighter in tone than Fate Core?

You can run dark gritty games in Fate Accelerated, and light games in Fate Core. Fate Accelerated is Fate Core in a lot of ways—it's built out of that engine—it just shows you how to run the game with less mechanical detail. But mechanical detail is not an equivalence for grit, despite what other...

Hamlet

@BESW it would be helpful to have a meta answer summarizing how RPG.se handles author answers.

BESW

I don't think so. RPG.SE handles a much more... actionable... set of subjects.

It's a very different kind of thing, and that's the primary crux of lit.se's problem here (and in other topics as well).

Actionable solutions to practical problems totally change the ballgame when evaluating authority.

Hamlet

Quote from my now edited answer:

> Here's the standard we should use for evaluating author answers. Imagine that the answer was written by a someone who you know is not the author. Would the answer still be a good answer? If yes, then the answer is acceptable. If no, then the answer is not.

BESW

(I'm having trouble finding more intent-only questions answered by devs.)

Hamlet

@Emrakul I actually disagree with the statement that authors "do have primacy in interpreting intent." What if an author makes a statement about intent 30 years later after the action? What if an author lies about their intentions? We can't trust authors.

BESW

6:41 AM

This one's... close:

13

A: Distributing the Gods among more than seven players

I never intended it to be played by more than seven players. And that, if you want a canonical answer to the question, is that. I would suggest that you split one of the major gods (i.e. Slashings and Slayings, or That Which Guards the Gate) into two smaller spheres of responsibility if you want...

user61230

@Hamlet It depends on the author and context. Primacy isn't absolute.

BESW

@Hamlet There's a difference between primacy and authority.

If an author's made statements about intent, good answers to questions about intent should address those statements--probably by comparing them to the text and any other relephant authorial information and evaluating the statements' usefulness/trustworthiness.

Hamlet

@BESW that seems like a good answer to me, because the statements about intentionality weren't really relevant to the question. The author proposes some solutions to the rules question, which seem to be what the OP was looking for.

BESW

But even if the conclusion is that the statement is untrustworthy, it'd be a poorer answer if it instead ignored the statement entirely. That's primacy: deal with the author's statement first, then move on to alternatives.

Hamlet

@BESW primacy != authority. Noted.

BESW

6:44 AM

@Hamlet Aye. I really shouldn't have accepted that answer, though, simply because I haven't used it yet and so can't honestly say it was useful.

user61230

0

A: Should answers from authors be treated differently from other answers?

Let's untangle this a bit. There are a lot of red herrings in this discussion, and it's become a bit of a mess. It's starting to hinder our ability to talk about this cleanly. Ignore quality, author validation, and all the rest for now; that's putting the cart before the horse. Let's talk about t...

Hamlet

@BESW oh, hadn't realized you were the OP

BESW

(This is how we preferentialise our "author" citizens on RPG.SE: we upvote and accept more quickly, while still editing and flagging for quality.)

I know we've had some intentionality kerfuffles with some devs, but they're largely purged from the site and were in areas I don't pay attention to anyway.

In the early 2000s, the D&D end of the RPG community developed this concept of "rules as written" vs "rules as intended" which is even more contentious than it sounds.

D&D-like systems are written so quickly, by so many different people, that contradictions and implications and weird syntax obscurities quickly rendered many rules and subsystems literally irreconcilable, or every possible interpretation equally wrong.

Rules As Written was taking a literal-minded, close-reading approach to the systems and embracing their bizarre incoherency as a feature rather than a bug. Rules As Intended was assuming the developers had a coherent concept in mind and it was just poorly transcripted, but a thoughtful person could infer the author's intent from the final material and this platonic game-behind-the-text was what should be played.

Hamlet

@BESW I thought our intentionality v. meaning debates were contentious :)

literature.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/625/…

BESW

@Hamlet Now take that, and apply it to a group of people using the results of the interpretation to play a years-long game they're heavily invested in.

Hamlet

6:53 AM

@BESW already got there

BESW

RPG.SE had to purge almost every RAW/RAI question from the site with fire.

We tried to accommodate them, but it just didn't work.

The tags were ashed and salted.

2

But before that, some developers got involved and it was Not Pretty.

So... yeah. This whole "authorial intent" thing? I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate.

Hamlet

@BESW I can think of worse. Imagine you're a judge trying to evaluate the legislative intent behind a law.

BESW

Oh, yeah, it's definitely small potatoes in the grand scheme of life. If you haven't researched the interpretative labyrinth behind the Second Amendment, you may find it... interesting, let's say.

Gallifreyan

@Hamlet second that. But do they get notifications if they're unregistered?

BESW

Or the recent case where a missing Oxford comma cost a company big bucks.

If the question were still on topic, this would be a bad intention-based answer from a game designer: it says what the author wrote the game to do but doesn't say if or how the game accomplishes that goal.

(Wrong link, fixed now.)

Sorry Home Depot. I read Dune, I'm not putting my hand in the box. https://t.co/1JrHfnH2Gm

Tweeted by lobau on March 20, 2017 at 6:54 AM

Bookworm

7:18 AM

1

Q: Why Did Doyle Choose 221B Baker Street?

221B Baker Street. One of the most famous addresses in literature. But why? Was there any reason Sir Arthur Conan Doyle chose this particular address as the residence of his famous protagonist? Did he have any links to that part of London?

sherlock-holmes arthur-conan-doyle setting

BESW

@Bookworm Because 222B sounds like Shakespeare with a stutter?

(20 Internet Points to anyone who knows the YA book in which that was a plot point.)

Bookworm

8:16 AM

0

Q: Does V reference Stanislaw Lem's "His Master's Voice", and if so, why?

I've recently been reading and re-reading Alan Moore and David Lloyd's V for Vendetta. After having skimmed through it multiple times and settling a few questions I had about the continuity, only one question remains. In volume I, chapter 2, The Voice, on page 13 the following conversation occurs...

comics alan-moore stanislaw-lem v-for-vendetta his-masters-voice

Mithrandir

9:33 AM

@BESW The Mystery of the Stuttering Parrot

BESW

9:45 AM

@Mithrandir [awards 20 Internet Points and a Twilight Sparkle merit badge]

2

Librarian

10:45 AM

0

Q: Could we drop spoiler warnings?

Related to this question. Out of consistancy and readability, could we agree on not using spoiler warnings in question title? We're already assuming that questions about a book spoil a book, and those are realy ugly...

discussion spoilers

Rand al'Thor

11:34 AM

@Hamlet Technically you do have a way of checking whether he is who he claims to be - you're a mod and can look at PII on his profile.

Rand al'Thor

11:49 AM

@Emrakul This is pretty similar to my answer - differentiating into questions where the author does have more say than anyone else and questions where they don't. Upvoted.

A J

Catching up with chat, are ya?

Rand al'Thor

Among other things.

A J

oh k

Rand al'Thor

I'm still not understanding what's wrong with this question :-(

A J

me neither.

Gilles

12:00 PM

@Randal'Thor maybe that there's a lot of information in the Wikipedia article and you don't mention why you think it's incorrect or incomplete

or maybe because it's unlikely that there is any such symbolism — you're looking for symbolism in the shape of clouds

Rand al'Thor

@Gilles Someone in here linked to an article about how it could have been a secret Catholic code, so there do seem to be reasonable interpretations which involve more symbolism than just "the shape of clouds". Something like that could be turned into a decent answer.

Mithrandir

12:27 PM

@Randal'Thor I'm thinking of asking him on twitter if it's really him.

Jason C

It'd be kinda neat if SE supported a "verified" status indicator for certain high profile people. Maybe. Or maybe not.

Probably not now that I think about it. </valuable-contribution-to-conversation>

BESW

12:44 PM

A great deal of the Stack's value as a discussionless Q&A site comes from its structure's adherence to the wisdom of carefully gamified crowds.

Singling out individuals for their identity outside the crowd would probably be detrimental to the system.

Hamlet

@JasonC not going to happen

24

Q: Does Stack Exchange have a "Verified Account" feature?

Is there a "Verified Account" feature at Stack Exchange like the one used by twitter? If not, should there be? I ask because I just saw this answer from new user "Jeffrey Richter," and I am not naturally suspicious, but — no wait, I am, hence this question.

discussion status-declined user-accounts

Jason C

@Hamlet Ah yeah. Good find. Not going to happen for all the reasons that dawned on me right after I thought about it.

Gallifreyan

4:02 PM

@Bookworm I wish my questions got that much attention :(

Bookworm

5:08 PM

1

Q: Was Twain the first author to write of Zombies?

Although the word is not used, Twain's zany novel of title-frenzy and mad-scientist capitalistic schemes The American Claimant (sequel to The Gilded Age) describes the intent by the megalomaniac Mulberry Sellers to "materialize" dead people for use as cheap labor. He intends to contract these wou...

mark-twain

Hamlet

5:31 PM

@Randal'Thor that information is private and I can't release it to the public.

2

Again, this is why answers shouldn't depend on the identity of the person writing it: the Stack Exchange software is explicitly not built for verifying users' identity.

Bookworm

5:46 PM

-2

Q: Opening line for Statement Of Purpose

Can someone suggest me the opening line for SOP (Statement Of Purpose). I'm applying for Masters in Information Technology.

reading-order

Librarian

7:07 PM

1

Q: Does Oral-Literature count as literature here?

I got into a small discussion with Hamlet (site mod), over this answer of mine. In the comments Hamlet said: Oral literature counts as literature. Just because people don't write things down doesn't make their literature less important. But I'm not sure on that. I made the point (and the co...

discussion

user61230

@Randal'Thor A moderator validating a user's identity is actually a violation of the moderator agreement.

4

Himarm

@Hamlet if the persons an author simply have them tweet something to validate.

authors official twitter handles are verified by twitter

if this is the author that responded to a tweet and now is answering on site

super easy, super safe

leave a link to the twitter post in a comment, and everyones hands are clean

Hamlet

7:34 PM

Sigh. I've learned not to expect much, but the reaction to this answer is incredibly disapointing

-2

A: Does Oral-Literature count as literature here?

Yes, of course oral literature is on-topic. We've taken a very permissive approach to defining literature for the purposes of this site's scope, and I don't see why that should change here. This site already has several questions about oral literature that have been well received. For example, w...

Beastly Gerbil

I agree that it can be used for recent stuff, but not ancient stuff, even 19th century stuff

Skooba

7:49 PM

@Hamlet give it time

reaction within a half hour isnt really definitive esp since it is meta

you have to let the the cycle of users pass through.

@Himarm I believe we did that with Elio Garcia on SFF

and by "we" I mean a user on SFF

Mithrandir

New Hot Network Question(s) detected:

1

Q: Was Twain the first author to write of Zombies?

Although the word is not used, Twain's zany novel of title-frenzy and mad-scientist capitalistic schemes The American Claimant (sequel to The Gilded Age) describes the intent by the megalomaniac Mulberry Sellers to "materialize" dead people for use as cheap labor. He intends to contract these wou...

history-of-literature mark-twain

Skooba

twiiter seems to be best way

51

Q: Have we had ANY professionals participate in SFF?

Are/were there any SFF professionals (writers, or movie people) who posted on this site? By professional, I mean someone who did a paid job involved with producing SFF content.

discussion site-promotion

Himarm

its okay, i tweeted him for you guys

im such a nice guy

Mithrandir

@Himarm I did that hours ago.

Skooba

this is what Mooz did

@IamMooz It is indeed me. Saw it on a Google search and decided to confirm. 😊

Tweeted by westerosorg on January 25, 2016 at 11:19 AM in reply to IamMooz

Himarm

7:55 PM

well good now he got spam tweeted

Skooba

and wont respond

Mithrandir

I learned a lot about the moderator tools today.

Actually, he did respond.

Skooba

Dwayne Johnson - You're Welcome (From "Moana")

►

Mithrandir

mobile.twitter.com/LukeSmitherd/status/844227708900986881?p=v

Skooba

@Mithrandir prolly only to get you guys to stop bugging him :P

Mithrandir

8:01 PM

@Hamlet - Luke Smitherd confirmed that it was him who answered.

Himarm

they put the link to that tweet in a coment

Mithrandir

Huh?

Himarm

comment under his answer with a link to the tweet, so users know hes confirmed

i deleted my tweet to him as well

yannis

@Hamlet Well, apologies if this sounds harsh, but it's a disappointing answer. The Odyssey example doesn't make sense, and the colophon that apparently assumes snobbery can be the only possible reason to have the discussion is needlessly aggressive. It's only natural that people will assume oral traditions are not on topic, when by definition literature refers to written works.

I'm all for including oral tradition in the site's scope. But I feel that answer does more to confuse the issue, than to advocate its position.

Rand al'Thor

@Hamlet +1: of course oral literature should be on-topic. That seems like a no-brainer to me.

yannis

8:08 PM

@Randal'Thor The irony here is that the chances that a oral tradition question will appear naturally are very, very small.

4

Beastly Gerbil

@Randal'Thor really? I'm typing up an answer to say no it shouldn't....

Rand al'Thor

Though @yannis makes some good points too. I may try to write up an answer which comes to the same conclusion in a different way, if I can think of any good arguments other than "it's effing obvious".

@BeastlyGerbil I've got my downvotes ready.

@yannis I disagree. I've even got a few I've been thinking of asking.

Oral tradition is pretty much where all literature came from originally - the concept of storytelling is much older than writing.

Beastly Gerbil

@Randal'Thor well, I'll quote you here (not exactly, but something similar): 'Thats why meta is good, people can vote up or down on what they think without repercussion for the poster' :) We'll see what others think

yannis

@Randal'Thor All it'll take to convince me is a good question. If you have one in mind, go for it.

A lot easier to settle the debate once we've seen what a good oral tradition question looks like.

Rand al'Thor

@yannis Haven't we had some already?

yannis

8:15 PM

@Randal'Thor If we had, I haven't seen them. Links?

Rand al'Thor

0

Q: What does "M O" in the Razzle Dazzle cheer song mean?

I would like to know what a particular line in the following cheer poem is a reference to. Razzle Dazzle Leader: My name is (your name) I'm number one My reputation has just begun So if you see me Step aside Cause I ain't got the time Response: Ooh! She thinks she's bad! ...

song-lyrics

This one is close.

yannis

A question that remains at 0 score and unanswered for over a month isn't a good example of anything. Also, I don't see how the question is about the oral transmission of the song. What am I missing?

2

Rand al'Thor

Yeah, it's had a pretty mixed reaction.

Hunting for better examples ...

yannis

The mixed reaction doesn't necessarily tells us the question is bad. But it does tell us that the community wasn't that interested in it.

Skooba

3

Rand al'Thor

8:19 PM

As @Hamlet already said, we've had plenty of questions about things that started off as oral traditions.

Beastly Gerbil

But we don't analyse that, we analyse the text it became

Rand al'Thor

I don't think these works magically became on-topic only when someone wrote down a particular version of them.

yannis

A question about a written work that was originally transmitted orally is not a question about oral traditions.

5

And of course, if we decide that "oral literature" is off topic, that does not mean that works that were originally transmitted orally are off topic.

The question we should be asking ourselves isn't one of topicality, but one of capability. Is this site capable of offering expert answers to questions about works that haven't made the transition to written literature?

Skooba

@yannis Well that answer surely is yes.

Himarm

how much oral lit hasnt been commited to text these days

yannis

8:23 PM

@Skooba I hope so. However, I'm not an expert in either written or oral literature, and I can't say for sure.

Skooba

@Himarm cheers and ghost stories

Rand al'Thor

@yannis So you think they could magically become on-topic only when they're written down?

Beastly Gerbil

0

A: Does Oral-Literature count as literature here?

My opinion, and also for the sake of having an alternative to vote for: No, it should not considered on-topic here There are several issues with oral literature being considered as literature: We usually don't have records of 'oral literature' from before voice recordings, unless it was writt...

Rand al'Thor

So if I transcribe a piece of oral literature, I can ask a question about it?

Beastly Gerbil

There, no you have an alternative....

Skooba

8:24 PM

@yannis Well part of the SE process is making our own experts. Even for "a literature expert" if you are waiting for "real experts" i.e. critics, professors, authors, you might be waiting for a long time

Beastly Gerbil

He he, -3 already....

Rand al'Thor

@BeastlyGerbil There you go, now you can earn a Peer Pressure badge :-P

yannis

@Randal'Thor If I had to pick, I'd be on the "oral literature is on topic" camp. Just saying that @Hamlet's answer isn't doing a great job of promoting its own argument.

Beastly Gerbil

I am not deleting. IMO that is the correct answer....

Himarm

non transcribed oral lit has to be such a small group of things now, that finding experts for them or about them has to be equally small

Beastly Gerbil

8:25 PM

Yay only -1 now :P

Oh 0...

Rand al'Thor

@BeastlyGerbil Yeah, I was just kidding.

Beastly Gerbil

Yeah i know dw :P

Skooba

in the end it has to do with question quality.

Beastly Gerbil

Well, this seems to be a stalemate. Community is split, so are the mods. Both answers saying 'yay' and 'nay' are on equal votes...

I love debates :P

yannis

Well, if it's a stalemate, I say err on the side of being inclusive.

7

Skooba

8:27 PM

If all the questions we get on Oral Lit are like that cheer question its going to suck, but that doesn't mean there are not good questions to be asked

2

Mithrandir

*raises hand* Aye.

Beastly Gerbil

@Randal'Thor harsh :( I'll edit to say most and expand there....

user61230

@Randal'Thor I've been ninja'd.

Bookworm

2

Q: Are there any recorded discrepancies between The Odyssey as oral tradition and The Odyssey as Homer transcribed it?

The Odyssey began as oral tradition, and was later transcribed by someone we now call "Homer." Disregarding the Homeric Question concerning the identity of the person who transcribed these works, it recently occurred to me... Since The Odyssey began as oral tradition, it must naturally have evol...

the-odyssey oral-tradition

Skooba

@Bookworm ah but now is that a question about oral or written... i mean i know its both, but without the written half that question doesn't exist. so it leans to written side

Rand al'Thor

8:31 PM

@Emrakul again ;-)

@yannis I agree. Sadly, many don't, as I found out in a similarly split scope debate on SFF.

Mithrandir

*asks question: 'When was the Odyssey first written down?*

yannis

> At a minimum, if multiple people had versions of The Odyssey in their memory that differed from Homer's, I'd expect to find an account of that somewhere.

Rand al'Thor

@Bookworm Nice, @Emrakul was getting on and composing a good question about oral tradition while the rest of us were debating on meta/chat.

yannis

@Emrakul This assumes a literate society.

Beastly Gerbil

@Emrakul bah you just ruined one of my points entirely :)

user61230

8:34 PM

@yannis Hadn't thought of that, that's a good point.

Beastly Gerbil

@Randal'Thor updated. try not to find too much wrong with it this time :P I could do exactly the same for Hamlets answer

yannis

Interestingly, there's only one mention of writing in the Iliad.

And it's a mention of pictorial tokens.

Perhaps one reason several versions of the Homeric epics didn't survive is because only a very few people at the time were able to write them down.

Rand al'Thor

@BeastlyGerbil That edit seems to be mainly changing your statements from definitive to "probably" or "mostly". I still disagree with all your points.

Beastly Gerbil

@Randal'Thor I gathered that from your comments...

yannis

@Mithrandir ~ 7th century BC. The story is though of being ~ 100 years earlier.

user61230

8:39 PM

@yannis Possibly. But it would be historically unusual for an oral tradition like that to die completely before multiple transcriptions could occur.

Beastly Gerbil

0

A: Does Oral-Literature count as literature here?

Here is another option: We leave this as on-topic for now, not because I think it should be, but because no conclusion can be reached yet The community is torn, the mods are saying different things and both answers are currently on 0 after having several upvotes downvotes. Until a conclusion i...

Another option ^ Probably what most will actually agree on...

yannis

@Emrakul Would it?

Rand al'Thor

@BeastlyGerbil Upvoted that, even though I don't think it really needs to be said.

Beastly Gerbil

Well tbh it was half to stop bickering, and find something people can agree on :)

Mithrandir

@Randal'Thor ditto

user61230

8:41 PM

At least for an oral tradition that originated and "ended" so close to being written down, from what I've seen, yeah. I could be wrong, though.

Rand al'Thor

@BeastlyGerbil And half to get yourself some imaginary meta rep to make up for the downvotes on your other answer? ;-)

Beastly Gerbil

@Randal'Thor not at all! I don't care about downvotes on meta

Rand al'Thor

16 mins ago, by Rand al'Thor

@BeastlyGerbil Yeah, I was just kidding.

Beastly Gerbil

Sorry, I probably should have put a ':)' or ':P' to show that I wasn't being completely serious too....

Mithrandir

I think we should stop making jokes, since nobody ever seems to get anybody else's...

Skooba

8:44 PM

@Mithrandir that's because veiled sarcasm is not a joke.

Mithrandir

2 mins ago, by Rand al'Thor

16 mins ago, by Rand al'Thor

@BeastlyGerbil Yeah, I was just kidding.

user61230

@BeastlyGerbil Given my two cents. It's not a full yes or no answer, but it's a framing challenge.

Beastly Gerbil

Yeah I kind of am beginning to agree with 'there is no answer'

Skooba

Rand al'Thor

@Emrakul I think I disagree with that, but I need to consider it some more before voting. Going AFK for a bit now anyway.

Beastly Gerbil

8:47 PM

Hmm, a couple of people dont agree with my second answer. Surprising.

Mithrandir

@BeastlyGerbil *' :P

Beastly Gerbil

And if this question sparks off a raging debate that splits he community in half, thus destroying the site and then SE leaving a load of angry people to rebel and wipe humanity from the face of the earth: It was unintentional. :P

Benjamin

@BeastlyGerbil Yes, I am one of those people because I feel it is avoiding the question and I would rather have that as an answer to a standard question about inability to reach consensus.

Beastly Gerbil

@Benjamin so you don't agree with the proposal we hold off the discussion until more oral tradition posts are added so we can judge them better and see if they are suitable for the site?

Mithrandir

@BeastlyGerbil *asks Worldbuilding question about the feasibility of that*

Beastly Gerbil

8:51 PM

Heh :P

yannis

@Emrakul btw, if memory serves there's some evidence that the Homeric epics went through a standardization process sometime in the 5th century. This would explain why we don't have multiple versions.

user61230

@yannis I'd love to see that explored in an answer. In a bit, if I have time & someone else hasn't gotten to it, I'll poke around and see what I can find

Benjamin

@BeastlyGerbil No, I think we should create examples for the purposes of discussion, make an initial decision and possibly reevaluate later.

@yannis I too have heard this, but I forget the source.

Beastly Gerbil

@Benjamin hmm interesting. Where we we create examples though?

yannis

@Benjamin Found the source, it's good old Plato: perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/…

Mithrandir

8:55 PM

Mar 2 at 9:36, by BESW

Questions designed to force a conversation tend to fall apart for other reasons because they're prompted by reasoning that actual questions the conversation SHOULD be about won't have.

Beastly Gerbil

And maybe you would consider writing an answe with some examples to help ?

Mithrandir

It's quite amusing, to sit here while chewing, and watch this discussion brewing...

Hamlet

@yannis I removed the part about Odyssey being oral literature, because you are 100% right

@BeastlyGerbil this site gets into huge debates about the most innocent of things. Community wiki, oral literature, etc. What's next?

BESW

Navajo Hope to Preserve Thousands of Hours of Oral History http://buff.ly/2o0wHO2 https://t.co/TzZ9BRzTum

Tweeted by indiancountry on March 21, 2017 at 2:26 PM

4

More #TopTenTuesday fave #bitesizebooks from the past year @booksbyintisar @tithenai @gelineauandking @ursulav <3 http://onemore.org/2017/03/21/top-ten-bite-size-books/

Tweeted by imyril on March 21, 2017 at 2:30 PM

yannis

9:10 PM

@Hamlet cool. Removed my (now obsolete) comment.

Hamlet

@yannis I feel bad about not posting these on Mythology, but I'm going to post a question or two about oral literature on literature site to show people it can be done.

Rand al'Thor

@Mithrandir +'s, -this

Mithrandir

@Randal'Thor *flags as obsolete*

Napoleon Wilson

9:30 PM

@Randal'Thor Um, you might continue working on your questions, because that's not actually a fitting example question for the matter anyway, as Skooba points out.

Shokhet

A protagonist is a particular type of character, @B.ClayShannon. — Shokhet 2 hours ago

...I wouldn't have thought it necessary, but the Wikipedia page for protagonist says "Not to be confused with Regular character." Go figure.

Bookworm

2

Q: How much did Eddie Willers understand about his situation by the end of Atlas Shrugged?

From the very beginning of the novel: "Who is John Galt?" The light was ebbing, and Eddie Willers could not distinguish the bum's face. The bum had said it simply, without expression. But from the sunset far at the end of the street, yellow glints caught his eyes, and the eyes looked str...

character-analysis atlas-shrugged ayn-rand

BESW

Oh, and re: ancient oral traditions preserved accurately into the modern day, Australian aboriginal oral history records events that are at least 6,000 years old, possibly twice that.

2

Mithrandir

@Shokhet just noticed that they gave away ~23k rep in bounties on SO.

Shokhet

@Mithrandir 😲

@Mithrandir And I thought nicael offered a lot of points on MSE

Mithrandir

9:46 PM

@Shokhet he did. This guy just offered more ;)

Shokhet

@Mithrandir :)

Bookworm

0

Q: Why were Colonel Cathcart and Colonel Korn so determined to undermine each other?

As a disclaimer, it's admittedly been a little while since I've read the book, so I'm hoping I'm not missing something obvious. However, both Colonel Cathcart and Colonel Korn seem bound and determined to undermine each other. I know both of them are trying to get promoted, but why such schadenfr...

character-analysis catch-22

Beastly Gerbil

woo 2k

Mithrandir

Congrats

Shokhet

@BeastlyGerbil Congratulations!

Beastly Gerbil

9:55 PM

10k priveleges for small sites :P

Mithrandir

I'll admit that I'm human, and that's it midnight, and I feel like sleeping. So... adios! Zzz...

Beastly Gerbil

Me too. Night!

Bookworm

1

Q: Why, at the begining of the tale Jealous Twins, does the storyteller frame the story?

The Verba Africana website is a fantastic website that publishes recordings, transcriptions, and analysis of African oral literature. One of the stories published on the site is called Jealous Twins; it is an Ewe tale. One of the interesting things about the story is that it follows a formula....

oral-literature

Rand al'Thor

10:12 PM

Eek. So many pings ...

BESW

(Pre-contact Native Americans knew, through oral tradition, about West coast fault lines with a periodicy of 250 years, which science just started noticing in the 1980s.)

Rand al'Thor

@Bookworm @Hamlet Did you deliberately create a new oral-literature tag separate from the existing oral-tradition one?

@Shokhet @Mithrandir Check this guy out.

VicAche

10:28 PM

Guys is it OK in SE culture to close question with very high votes?

Rand al'Thor

@VicAche Sure. If it's off-topic, it's off-topic, regardless of score.

VicAche

@Randal'Thor Not as off-topic, as unclear

See: literature.stackexchange.com/questions/2142/…

Rand al'Thor

110

Q: Could the Enterprise beam a vampire into a house she didn’t have permission to enter?

There's this article on io9.com asking this exact question, and I thought that scifi.SE would be the ultimate place to have the matter settled. I present to you: This is a serious question that has been bothering me. We all know that in most vampire lore, a vampire cannot enter a house withou...

star-trek vampire

^ score of 110, closed and locked

Score of 81, closed and deleted

@VicAche A question based on a false premise isn't necessarily unclear. You might be able to put together a good answer which explains and picks apart the imperfections in the question, and covers the topic well regardless of what exactly the OP meant or what they misunderstood.

b_jonas

@VicAche That doesn't look unclear to me though.

VicAche

Having a tough time figure out a way to do so without editing the question to modify OP intent

@Randal'Thor See my comments on this question, but as it stands, I can't see them as an answer to the question

b_jonas

10:34 PM

Even if there isn't a "Homer's version", it can make sense to ask if there are different written versions, even fragmented.

And I think that's what the question is trying to ask for.

VicAche

@b_jonas "Are there different copies "

this is what's confusing me a lot in answering

b_jonas

I suggest you ignore the title.

The question title that is.

VicAche

And the content?

b_jonas

But of course you can wait for Emrakul to clarify the question.

VicAche

I have a bad history of answering questions based on false premises on this website

b_jonas

10:37 PM

@VicAche I think that's the real answerable part of the question.

Rand al'Thor

@VicAche If the question is based on the assumption that there is a "Homer's version" and you can show that there isn't, then you can turn that into a good answer by saying what versions there are and comparing them.

VicAche

@Randal'Thor Actually that wouldn't be the way I would answer

Rand al'Thor

@Emrakul ^ see above discussion

(pinging since I just got a comment from Emrak on the site, so they are online)

VicAche

I think what's interesting (and there is a consensus among historians on that) is that we have only "one" version of a text that we know was very varied orally. What's striking is more the unicity of what we have (although as a scholar you could show we have variations), and it is quite explainable

user61230

Will have to check in a bit. Walking to print and turn in a couple dozen pages of lab report.

b_jonas

10:40 PM

This kind of thing gets way easier for writings that didn't get popular and get copied already in ancient times, like the Beowulf, which survived in a sole written copy with some damaged parts; or in writings between 1950 and 2000 where there's no oral tradition and we can trace all the published editions.

user61230

But I think closing it as unclear is misplaced. It doesn't seem like the question I asked is unclear, it seems like it's misinformed, if what you're saying is true, @VicAche.

Rand al'Thor

@Emrakul Yeah, that was my thought too.

user61230

You know exactly what I'm asking, but have identified a framing and knowledge base problem with the question. That's a valuable thing to include in an answer, not as a reason to close as unclear.

VicAche

I'm looking for a reliable English-language source

user61230

So I'd encourage you to write an answer! I'm interested to hear what you have to say. For now, brb!

VicAche

10:42 PM

Wikipedia will agree with my assessment but is very poorly sourced on this

French source would, however acceptable, be quite difficult for you to check...

Shokhet

@Randal'Thor Oh my.

Rand al'Thor

This picture will give you acrophobia.