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00:26
@Hamlet Lots of interesting things, but only touching the surface of each (it was a half-hour presentation).
It started by adopting George McFadden's concept of literature as "a canon which consists of those works in language by which a community defines itself throughout the course of its history" and then talked about the language of Yapese dance and its role in the community as a method of memory, negotiation, instruction, commemoration, and commentary.
It also talked about how the different elements of a dance's structure (including but not limited to chant, gestures, attire, and context/permission) can be analysed in ways similar to analysing the structural elements of Western written works, and how the "genres" of dance differ from each other and influence each other over time.
@BESW I see.
There were some especially interesting bits at the end about how dance-as-commentary is used to face challenging subjects which otherwise have no conversational space, but that it's also used to normalise subjects by reducing serious topics to less controversial stylised representations of themselves.
@b_jonas Hazard of being a freelance print-media graphic designer who works with low-budget niche projects; I get lassoed into doing anything adjacent to my specialty that nobody else wants to do.
So, yanno. Doing the layout for a literary magazine? Come sit with the editors as we go over submissions! Designing a poster for a theater performance? Write a page of program copy explaining the cultural context and influence of Ryūnosuke Akutagawa on Akira Kurosawa!
00:43
@BESW I'm suddenly thinking of candy colored ponies & aliens with silly hats.
@doppelgreener Not unlike, though in the context of a society with much more rigorous rules and taboos about who can say what where and how.
Instead of just making a conversation easier to digest, like Star Trek's contemporary social commentary via planets of hats, churu can make a conversation possible where it'd otherwise be completely impossible.
That sounds very healthy and important
But it's also possible to make a horrible thing feel okay by how we frame it, and some deep-rooted struggles in Yapese society are more difficult to address because of how popular churu presents them as less problematic than they really are.
And since there's not really any space except churu to talk about these things...
One cool thing about churu, though, is that its different genres allow for different kinds of communication. So some are mostly about history and traditional practices and don't change much over time, while others are created and revised to talk about contemporary issues. There's even dances which are the equivalent of the town crier or a local newspaper, used to share news!
01:33
Could we rethink not having a sandbox? I know that I would find it helpful.
Now my Wonka question is waaayyy too popular; it's making me feel self-conscious :-S
I know, I'm weird like that...
Any thoughts on why this question has been so poorly received?
Is it my statement that the Red is portrayed as the 'bad Ajah' (not counting the Black)? Because that's not strictly required for the question, so I can just cut it out if so.
@Randal'Thor I kinda wondered that, but since I know nothing about Ajahs, I'm afraid I can't be much help there.
Maybe people just don't like the Blue Raja's pseudo-British attitude.
01:49
Googles Blue Raja
 
2 hours later…
04:13
@Benjamin ping me when you post questions in chat so I know to respond
But I'm not sure what this is about: your question about the poem "first they came for the ..." seems reasonably well recieved
@BESW pretty cool.
 
2 hours later…
06:47
I can't help wondering, in light of the statements that one doesn't even need to read a book to ask questions about it, what sort of questions one could ask about a book they hadn't read?
I mean, one could ask something like "how did The Pilgrim's Progress influence the allegory genre?", but IIRC, previous similar questions were not well-received.
But maybe that was because the previous questions were about an author's influence on language, and not about any particular book... I dunno. Just pondering my navel in the middle of the night...
07:03
@kristan The most obvious kind of question is one about how to read it.
eg, "Do I need to read this series in order?" or "Which translation is considered definitive?" or "Can I read House of Leaves as an ebook without losing too much of the text?"
07:31
...I should ask that.
07:45
1
Q: Is House of Leaves' ergodicity preserved as a digital text?

BESWI've been trying to read House of Leaves for a couple years now, but don't have the opportunity to sit down with a big physical book for long stretches of time. I do, however, have much more time available to read ebooks. How does the experience of House of Leaves change or diminish as an ebook?...

TIL it's "ergodicity," not "ergodicy."
@BESW there goes my future taxonomist badge ;)
08:01
2
Q: Could we use an [ergodic-literature] tag?

Martin EnderI was wondering whether it might be a good idea to have a tag for works of ergodic literature. Wikipedia uses the following definition: In ergodic literature, nontrivial effort is required to allow the reader to traverse the text. If ergodic literature is to make sense as a concept, there mus...

I looked for an ergotic-lit tag and couldn't find it, so went with ergodicity as more precise without losing anyone who'd go looking for ergodic.
(We may have questions of ergodicity which aren't about literature which is itself ergodic.)
How do you define ergodicity in a literary context without being about ergodic literature?
The same way you can have a romance in a book that isn't a romance novel.
ergodic literature isn't really a genre though
I'd say if a text contains ergodic elements it is by definition (to some degree) ergodic literature.
I think it's probably a matter of degree.
I'd be interested in consideration of whether Where's Wally books are ergodic, or Graeme Base books, or Kit Williams' Masquerade.
They certainly each contain at least one definitively ergodic element, but I'm not sure all of them require engagement with that element to the point that they contain rules for their use which "automatically distinguish between successful and unsuccessful users."
08:13
oh, where's that definition from?
(I'm not even sure I'd consider Where's Wally literature in the first place, but I guess you could make an argument for it)
Espen J. Aarseth, quoted by Wikipedia.
oh, must have overlooked that part
the source of that quote is actually on my amazon wishlist
@MartinEnder Certainly each book tells a story with its physical text, enhanced by its visual elements, however much the story exists as an excuse for the visual interaction.
the last time I've seen a Where's Wally book has been so long ago that I didn't even recall they had any text at all
(And the stories often contain crude social commentary, even.)
It's been a very long time for me as well, but I was mildly obsessed for a year or two.
You'd be helping Wally find a wizard who could get him home, or track down his evil brother (cousin? can't recall), or the like.
I'd say that Where's Wally is probably arguably ergodic, and some Graeme Base books (specifically The Eleventh Hour) are as well. But for Base books like The Discovery of Dragons and The Sign of the Seahorse the ergodic element is independent of successful reading--it's a bonus.
And Williams' Masquerade is arguably (though very controversially) an ergodic text which no one has ever successfully read.
"Arguably Ergodic" would be a good name for a publication imprint that specialised in Choose Your Own Adventure books.
08:24
:D
...now I'm thinking about the idea of texts which can't be read successfully.
I think it illuminates one of the weird tensions in the assumption of ergodic literature as a category: that it's possible for a reader to fail to read a text by any metric but her own.
If you read a Wally book and never find Wally, not once, ever, have you failed to read the book?
anyway, my main concern wasn't whether we'll call it ergodicity or ergodic-literature but the fact that I'd been specifically holding off from creating the tag because there's not strong consensus for doing so.
If the answer is "yes, you've failed to read the book," then how many Wallies must you find before you've succeeded?
@MartinEnder Fair enough. I think there's more leeway in creating tags for one's own question than for others', so that was probably the right call at the time.
I found myself writing a question which was going to use the word "ergodic" in the central query, so it felt like the tag was definitively needed.
I'm sorry if you were looking forward to doing that yourself.
don't worry. feel free to add the tag to other four questions then (and maybe create a tag wiki)
user61230
08:47
@BESW Two. Two wally.
Now we're getting somewhere.
09:06
@BESW Ah, I see
Or, going by some of my high school classmates, "Why did Pip shoot Biddy?"
user61230
09:18
[looks at the clock] Dear lord that answer took a while to write.
09:31
@Emrakul lovely answer :)
out of curiosity, have you read any other stuff from Danielewski?
09:42
Speaking of ergodic literature... The Richard Cory Interactive Adventure.
2
Q: What is the reason for this inconsistent highlighting in Neil Gaiman's "Sandman"?

GallifreyanI was just re-reading Preludes and Nocturnes, the first volume of Neil Gaiman's The Sandman. In the story titled The Sound of Her Wings, the following conversation takes place: Death: You are utterly the stupidest, most self-centered, appallingest excuse for an anthropomorphic personificati...

0
Q: Why are haiku usually of 17 syllables?

muruOne of the characteristics of Haiku is that the poems are usually of 17 syllables (5-7-5). Exceptions exist, of course, but 17 is the norm. Why 17? How did the originators of Haiku come to settle on 17? How does it contribute to a haiku's aesthetics?

user61230
@MartinEnder Thanks :]
user61230
I haven't, actually! I've been considering picking up... one of his other works, whose name escapes me. But I haven't done it yet.
Ah okay. I've got everything up to Familiar Vol. 2 on the shelf, but I haven't read Only Revolutions or Familiar Vol. 2 (the former because I feel like my English vocabulary doesn't suffice to actually understand it, and the latter because I don't know I had other stuff to read)
The Fifty Year Sword a nice short read
but HoL is definitely the best I've read so far
user61230
Gootcha, yeah. I've been wondering whether The Fifty Year Sword is worth reading. You think so?
09:50
yeah, I quite liked it.
user61230
I'll put it on my list, then.
I feel like one of the reasons I've been putting off continuing with The Familiar is that if I read a series while it's still being written, I tend to forget what I already read during months waiting for the next book. So maybe I'll just see if he ever finishes all 27 of them and then start from scratch.
user61230
Maybe he'll pull a House of Leaves and make the remaining ones exhibits to be filled in by the reader ;)
well so far he's still publishing them quite frequently
(one every 7 or 8 months or so)
user61230
What'd you think of Familiar 1?
user61230
09:56
I've read a lot of mixed thoughts on it, but I've never laid hands on a copy.
I liked it. I guess it helps going into it without expecting another HoL. There's the weird typesetting and stuff, some of which is really cool, but there's none of the crazy hunting for cross references. I had a bit of trouble with a couple of narrators whose slang is really strong or English is really broken, but that would likely not be a problem for a native speaker.
user61230
(Oh, whoa, I had no idea you weren't a native speaker.)
I guess one complaint might be that it doesn't get very far storywise with most of the narrators, but then again what would you expect from part 1 of 27. It mostly just sets up the individual story arcs. But there are some really interesting characters.
user61230
That makes sense. I'd imagine it's a novel that needs to distinguish itself from House of Leaves in some way.
user61230
If it didn't, it'd be endlessly contrasted with it by people who'd lunge at intertextuality in Leaves.
10:02
Yeah definitely. The first part of The Familiar did make me want to know how most of the story arcs continue, so I guess that's good :)
user61230
Makes sense! Incidentally, that's a lot like some of the criticism I've heard for it. Which I think is kind of funny.
One thing about The Fifty Year Sword that I'm not sure about is how it's split over 5 different narrators. I personally haven't really noticed any influence of this on how the story is told, but maybe I just didn't pick up on it. On the flip side, it's a nice fairy-tale-ish story, and the artwork is gorgeous (and ties in with the story quite nicely).
might be worth a question here, whether the five narrators are just a gimmick or actually affect the meaning of the text
user61230
I'd be curious to read an answer to it!
Hm, just found this in a review:
> [...] its use in this case does not contribute to any especially visible form of harmony or dissonance (apart from certain halting rhythms) among the narrators—none of whom, in any case, ever emerges sufficiently characterized so as to permit a mode of distinction other than by autumnal color.
> What’s worse, sometimes the narrators alternate so rapidly—e.g., every couple of words—that the reader must elide the quotation marks intended to set off their respective contributions. This unavoidable contingency converts Mr. Danielewski’s scheme into a dead letter by making invisible the very n
"The Autumnal Quotation Marks" would be a good name for a barbershop quartet.
10:11
:D
(Their first album, of course, is Certain Halting Rhythms with the single "Narrative Sutures.")
user61230
(Closing piece: "In Which We All Try to Sing At the Same Time, and Only Sort Of Make It Work.")
10:28
TIL, markdown can handle *interleaved **emphasis* delimiters**
*you can use asterisks without code formatting*
*example*
that too, but that's quite different
anyway, I've posted the question
user61230
I can't believe I literally spent three hours writing answers tonight.
@Emrakul the second symbol in your haiku answer doesn't match up between the two code blocks. is that intentional?
user61230
@MartinEnder Fixed, whoops. I manually typed that one in.
10:47
3
Q: Are the five narrators in The Fifty Year Sword just a gimmick?

Martin EnderMark Z. Danielewski's The Fifty Year Sword is told by five narrators whose parts were ostensibly collected in interviews and tightly interleaved. Quoting the first page: Maybe because the history of any ghost story is a ghost story unto itself, which is to say another story completely, assumi...

@Emrakul I can. You've been after me to read House for years.
user61230
You mean to tell me you haven't read it!? ;)
See question above.
urdu poetry is so beautiful https://t.co/uTGMZ9HfTn
It appears to be by the Sufi mystic Amīr Khusrow, who lived in India during the 13th and 14th centuries AD.
11:07
@Emrakul that Leaves answer makes me want to read it :P
user61230
@Mithrandir Mwahahahaha...
Unfortunately, it's currently a little hard for me to get new books, so it may end up waiting years. I have a list of books that I've been wanting, and it was literally at three thousand last time I wrote it out. I don't get new books often, and with what's going on right now, it's going to be difficult to get a copy... But I'll try.
It's... a challenging read.
I usually read things in bits and pieces, a few minutes at a time many times a day. House can't support that.
user61230
It's a... dense book, fair warning. And fairly consuming. I had a hard time with it. But it was valuable.
I can tell, by Emrak's answer...
11:13
I remember devouring House of Leaves within a week.
@BESW I often sit for a couple hours with a book, so...
The book requires actual effort, but it's worth it.
@Mithrandir [sigh] I remember those days.
user61230
It took me a lot longer than I've heard it taking most people, though. It was... a fairly emotional read for me, though it's hard to pinpoint why.
I remember that.
I suspect it's related to your RPG/LARP playstyle idiosyncrasies.
You take immersive fiction very seriously.
And House can be read as a single-person LARP focused on a very well-realised prop.
user61230
11:19
Yeah, I suspect that has something to do with it.
user61230
I had to take quite a bit of time to pause and process as I read it. But, largely for personal reasons. My SO read it in a fifth/sixth the time it took me.
@Emrakul Is it a bad sign that I read this as Stack Overflow at first?
I'm glad it's not just me...
user61230
Snrt. Fair enough.
o_o I did too...
We're all SE geeks.
user61230
11:27
@Mithrandir time for "standard error" to become a thing
@Emrakul We've just made a fairly standard error in misreading SO.
user61230
@Randal'Thor That joke is SO thirty seconds ago.
*the room suddenly is entirely blue*
@Mithrandir BESW is still here.
@Randal'Thor I can't see a non-blue message on my screen anymore o_o
user61230
11:31
But BESW is in italics, and if House of Leaves taught me anything, it's that italics means blue, and blue means italics.
A few minutes ago there were only six users in Mos :-o
I guess everyone who's anyone has come over here instead :-P Right, Mith?
Of course....
11:49
Oh, this has hit HNQs. That could be interesting ...
oh wow, that got a lot of answers
user61230
user61230
(I edited this. I lie. Don't listen to me.)
:P
I was like WHAT and checked. Phew.
This is still on the HNQ, also.
@Mithrandir ...
11:55
in Mos Eisley, 6 mins ago, by Mithrandir
*facepalm*
@Mithrandir Not rolling back?
I mean, as a suggested edit that would be rejected outright.
Considering it...
 
3 hours later…
14:35
@Mithrandir I'm not really that involved in SFF, but that sounds like a good idea for meta...or chat:
@Shokhet whaddya mean?
I really don't have time to talk now though (almost shabbat!), so...
14:55
@Mithrandir That answer you linked to belongs to a meta SFF suggestion for a main SFF series of book recs
That project could work on meta, or less formally, in chat
@Mithrandir TZT, and Shabbat shalom!
@Shokhet ohh. Okay, then. I was trying to figure out what you might mean talking about my facepalm :P
@Shokhet Shabbat shalom!
@Mithrandir Oh, I see how that could be confusing
@Mithrandir שבת שלום :)
 
2 hours later…
16:33
2
Q: Is the haiku in "You Only Live Twice" by Bashō?

muruIan Fleming's Bond novel You Only Love Twice has one of my favourite poems: You only live twice Once when you're born And once when you look death in the face. According to the Wikipedia article, this is merely "in the style of ... Bashō." There are claims that this haiku is actually b...

user61230
17:24
Rep caps... shakes fist
Okay. I am coming in here to see if I can stay on topic and try to pretend that I know what y'all talk about in here ;)
It's all @Randal'Thor's fault. Blame him for luring me back here again ;)
user61230
17:54
How could you, @Rand. :]
user61230
Hello!
@Emrakul Hello stranger! How is it going over here?
user61230
Not too shabby! Not enough sleep, fault of this annoying site about Literature, if you've heard of it.
user61230
How 'bout you?
18:19
I'm good! I need to contribute more over here. Just reading meta and stuff :)
user61230
Yeah, I get that. It can be hard to find questions that aren't already answered well, too. But reading meta's still worthwhile! ('course, I would say that...)
Hehehe! I have just been out of the loop around here lately. I just want to see what's policy and on topic around here and if anything has changed :)
user61230
19:13
Oh, yeah! There's been a fair bit of discussion! Pretty dang lively, which is a good sign.
19:48
I see that ;)
I guess it's better than belfry bats...;)
 
3 hours later…
23:50
@Mithrandir @Shokhet it's a little late, but Shabbat shalom!
Also, I'm very pleased with the quality of the answers on the site today.
user61230
First of all, congratulations on writing quite possibly the most thorough answer I've ever seen on Stack Exchange. I'm genuinely astonished, and you've certainly more than convinced me. Even if I disagree on a point or two here or there, there are enough that I do agree with to be wholly persuasive. I'm still thinking and re-reading. — Emrakul ♦ 5 mins ago
user61230
Occasionally, an answer genuinely blows me away with its thoroughness and attention to detail.

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