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11:00 PM
@fi12 I voted to reopen because that question is absolutely not off-topic. I haven't decided whether the question is POB so if it had been closed as POB I wouldn't have voted to reopen.
 
Now is after one am
Night
 
good night!
 
Goodnight!
 
go to sleep silly hatted sauron
 
11:00 PM
@Mithrandir Didn't you already say goodnight, like, an hour ago? :-)
 
lol literature is pretty addicting
 
1 hour ago, by Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ
@Mithrandir night!
ah, 1 hour
 
@fi12 they edited and it's reopened
 
awkward moment when @Hamlet enters room and sees starboard
 
in RPG General Chat, Jan 10 '13 at 2:49, by BESW
@Lord_Gareth I find it's very easy, once we've gained understanding of a thing, to forget what it was like to not have that understanding --and even more, to not remember what it was like when we didn't know it was a thing at all.
 
11:01 PM
@Randal'Thor lol
 
@DForck42 great, private beta is all about figuring out the scope of the site and closing/reopening is the best way to do that, so it's best to be generous with our close/reopen votes
 
@BESW I recognise that this is a thing, but I don't understand it. I mean, everyone was new once - they should be able to remember what that was like.
 
@Randal'Thor took me a while to get it
 
We want to assume good faith in our querents; a question can be off topic without the querent being lazy/trolling/etc. We've had a recent reminder to avoid personal attacks on people who say or do things we disagree with. That includes people posting questions we don't think are up to snuff.
 
@BESW I don't think I'm in danger of going any further than other sites. E.g., SO has a "show that you've at least worked on the problem" stipulation. I think that an ideal "simple" question as it were would show that the user has thought about it or has at least attempted to think about it (or demonstrate their confusion). What I'm saying is, I don't want simple homework questions on this site.
 
11:04 PM
@fi12 Regarding literature.stackexchange.com/questions/123/… , what translation are you reading? I don't think password is correct. Have you found other places where the translation looks suspicious?
 
@ConorO'Brien Agreed, but it's going to be a happier site if we frame it as "Please [edit] your question to show what you've done and why it hasn't solved your problem" rather than assuming they didn't do the work in the first place.
 
@Gilles no, the rest of the document seems fine. I don't have an actual print copy with me on hand, so I just used the first pdf I found.
 
Something that'd be nice to see here would be more examination of how/why something was written rather than the in-universe explanations that are usually expected on SFF. Mithrandir's answer to the time travel question adds something there, and I wonder if y'all couldn't find a way to emphasize it.
4
 
@BESW I agree wholeheartedly. I'm sorry if it came off as "condescending"
 
@ConorO'Brien No problem, it's a work in progress to make that kind of positive-assumption framing a part of our lives.
 
11:07 PM
@BESW In short, benefit of the doubt.
 
The effect of "Please show your work" on the site is more positive than "Please do your work."
If they haven't done the work, now they know there's an assumption of it. If they have but didn't express it clearly, they've been reminded without having someone assume they're a lazy bum.
 
@Shog9 are you from texas
 
No.
 
^^^ see? I said @BESW would be a great asset for Literature SE :-)
 
Hey guys. Did Literature SE get second chance?
 
11:09 PM
is getting
 
@Randal'Thor If I've policied far, it's because I've been tolerated by awesome mentors.
 
@BESW if you've policed far, it's because you've trodden on the shoulders of giant crowds?
 
@Eugene That's why we're all here :-)
 
@Gilles RPG.SE has been an educational crucible.
 
11:11 PM
What should be emphasized in my answer?
 
One thing I have been wondering about, but didnt feel it would be a good meta question - should you warn people that your posts may contain spoilers?
 
@Mithrandir I think they want to emphasise the answer itself as exemplary. Maybe a bounty.
 
@user159517 You already do implicitly, by asking about the book's content.
 
Can't start bounties yet
 
11
Q: Should we assume that questions about a book spoil that book, or should we use spoiler markup?

EmrakulThe title pretty much sums it up. It seems plausible to me that an assumption that a question about a book is liable to contain spoilers is enough reason to not use spoiler markup. I wanted to ask and be sure, though.

 
11:12 PM
Not until like third day
 
@BESW ah thanks, didnt catch that one.
 
@Mithrandir Why not?
I mean, I get that you don't want to at this point, but you can even with just the association bonus.
 
Questions a debt eligible iirc
 
@BESW That's not about warnings, though, but about downright hiding.
 
Oh right.
 
11:14 PM
@NapoleonWilson Same philosophy behind it.
 
@user159517 you should tag your questions properly, so that folks who are hoping to avoid learning about various topics can successfully do so.
 
it'd be cool to have a "this page has spoilers" transit page for questions that are all spoilers
 
but annoying
 
akin to how explicit material is blocked
 
what if you've finished the book
 
11:15 PM
there could be an option to disable it
 
eh I like option to enable it better
 
This really is addictive...
 
@Mithrandir really addictive...
 
Default to assuming that folks are here to learn. Respect the others so far as you are able, but don't make the experience worse for those who are on account of those who are not.
 
@Mithrandir I was supposed to be doing work but I got the email for private beta two hours ago and have barely done anything else since.
 
11:17 PM
It's after one in the birding beta
I need to sleep
Hey in not
 
go to sleep silly
 
@Randal'Thor great
 
@Shog9 hm about tagging questions properly: do you mean just to include the title of the book? Because the meta question seems to suggest that people dont like the idea of a spoiler-tag
 
@user159517 title of the book, author, potentially series if one exists (not sure if that's been discussed here yet, y'all might decide they're a bad idea, same goes for characters if those happen)
Essentially, any/all tags needed to describe where the question "fits"
No, a "spoiler" tag isn't necessary / useful - you're just guessing at what others won't want to know.
 
Aren't the two of you talking at cross purposes here? Spoiler'tagging' isn't the same as tags in the SE sense.
@ConorO'Brien Inline spoilers would also be great.
 
11:22 PM
Inline spoilers are the only way to avoid onebox spoilers.
 
If you don't want a book / author / series spoiled, then you don't read about it. How do you avoid reading about it without reading about it? You don't read questions whose tags suggest they may be about the topics you're hoping to avoid.
3
Hence, the importance of proper tagging.
 
@Shog9 genre and body would be useful, if they could be used consistently
 
But yeah, again, tag filtering is Definitely A Thing.
 
@Gilles yeah...
 
but I fear that this isn't sustainable
I would favorite and if those tags existed and meant what they should mean.
 
11:23 PM
@Shog9 just out of curiosity, do you also have all review privs/delete vote privs/etc. since you're an admin for SE?
 
Yeah, no. Tags need to be organic or we'll spend all our time re-tagging stuff to follow our non-intuitive rules.
 
@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ sure
 
cool, just wondering
 
(I've seen other sites try it.)
 
@Randal'Thor That's the confusion that happens when you say "tag" instead of "markup" or "block".
 
11:24 PM
@BESW Organic tags doesn't always happen.
 
@Gilles What?
 
@Gilles Obviously not. But inorganic tags never happen enough to make 'em worth it except in the most extreme cases.
 
Organically, people tag all their questions [linux] on Unix & Linux and on every language site, but those aren't useful classifications.
 
@Shog9 Could you take a look at some of my tag wikis?
 
well I'll think I'll just try to go with no spoilers in title if thats possible without mutilating the original meaning and try to tag properly. In the beginning that might be difficult though because it seems I can't create tags yet.
 
11:25 PM
The point of tagging is to get users to self-sort content as they create it.
 
@Benjamin The problem is to get people to use the right tags.
 
@Gilles Small post hoc corrections can be applied, but it's unlikely that an artificial tag will be used if the majority of people didn't find it to be intuitive.
 
If people spontaneously get it right 80% of the time, it's fine. If people spontaneously get it right 20% of the time, it's a problem.
 
@Gilles That seems impossible to maintain consistenly, though.
 
@NapoleonWilson unfortunately, yes
 
11:26 PM
@Benjamin you sure you want that?
 
@Shog9 I really do not understand spoiler and book combo. So what if someone tells one what book is about. It is in words of this person. I'm usually not buffaloed by something like this.
 
@Shog9 Yes, I think so.
 
@Eugene To be fair, that's a very personal preference. There are a lot of people who don't feel that way.
 
I agree. Just expressed my opinion on that matter.
 
@Eugene I don't "get" spoiler-fear in any context, but some folks are very serious about it and so I try to respect that as long as it doesn't get in the way of what we're here for.
 
11:28 PM
Right on.
 
@Shog9 Same thing for me.
 
'nneed.
 
@Randal'Thor true! it's annoying to do "Because it was really (linebreak) >! snape (linebreak) who killed Trinity with rosebud" ("Spoiler alert")
 
@Shog9 Thank you!
 
@ConorO'Brien and then it turns out that they're all Keyser Söze
 
11:30 PM
It's kind of fun for me to learn people's view about what makes a good question here, because I'm mainly active on math.SE. Some aspects are quite similar, others are really different.
 
as just a kind of fun activity thing, what're all of your favorite authors? Personally, I myself do like Orwell and Bradbury. Steinbeck is nice as well.
 
@user159517 And I'm coming from RPG.SE, which is a crucible mix of many different sorts of questions.
 
I like jkr and jrrt and Rick Riordan etx
 
@fi12 Leckie, Bujold, Allingham, Weizenbaum, Ueland, Ley...
 
yeah, I quite like Tolkien as well
 
11:33 PM
I find Tolkien fascinating as a worldbuilder, but rather tedious as an author.
 
@fi12 I really like Camus and Hemingway, though thats more because of particular books ('The Stranger') than as authors in general.
 
@fi12 I like anything related to philosophy tbh, but also Tolkien, Dashner, oc Riordan, Lewis (for his non-fiction; his fiction is fun but inferior to his non-fiction), and I love Poe(try)
 
Read Sophie's world?
 
For "traditional" epic British fantasy I'd rather go for Lloyd Alexander's Welsh-mythos-inspired Prydain Chronicles.
Sophie's World was a bit of a slog--a little too much whiplash between action and lecture, I guess? It's been a very long time.
 
It's a bit long
 
11:36 PM
I liked the conceit of it, though.
...I think Fforde may have done it better.
 
Hope, that no one will crucify for saying, that my favorite author is Stephen King pun intended :)
 
Good night
 
@Eugene How DARE you have reading preferences different than my own!
 
King has some great, compelling ideas. I just wish he'd polish a bit more.
 
@Mithrandir o/
 
11:38 PM
@Mithrandir ttfn
 
@Eugene I don't get the pun
 
@fi12 How about Douglas Adams? I've recently turned 42 so it's the age of the answer for me :)
 
Heh. I liked a lot of Adams's work with Doctor Who.
 
@BESW Stephen King is a wonderful short-story writer, who for some reason has written a bunch of novels.
 
a bunch of very lengthy novels. >_>
 
11:41 PM
On his own Adams tends to get a bit... repetitive. If you like the setup-punchline format he uses, you're golden. If not, you're in for a slog.
 
@Shog9 I guess you didn't like the Dark Towers series very much
 
@user159517 I very much enjoyed reading excerpts from many of them.
 
@user159517 if I will explain, then it won't be a pun ;)
 
@Shog9 I can get behind that, I suppose.
 
@Eugene I don't get your logic...
 
11:42 PM
?
 
I see we're following the SFF chat starring policy... Star early and star often...
@Eugene Explaining a pun doesn't make it not a pun...
3
 
it'll still be a pun, it just won't be funny. Which it already may be not
 
King just doesn't do much voyage back, and that bugs me because some of my favourite authors are folks like Allingham, who said:
> I write every paragraph four times - once to get my meaning down, once to put in anything I have left out, once to take out anything that seems unnecessary, and once to make the whole thing sound as if I had only just thought of it.
 
@Catija But it does make it less punny.
 
@fi12 I'm mainly a fantasy guy (as you can tell from my main site): Jordan, Tolkien, that kind of thing. But I'm also a fan of various more classical works like Shakespeare, Poe, Borges, Thomas Hardy, ...
 
11:44 PM
The generally-accepted way of making a pun funny is to explain it while simulating the jabbing of your audience in the ribs by writing, "eh? EH?" until they give up and laugh heartily
 
@Emrakul Well, if you have to explain a pun, it's already not much of a pun to start with. But perhaps it relies on some sort of inside Steven King knowledge... or any, for that matter... I've never read any of his work, so I'm clearly not getting this pun.
 
@Shog9 I can't see how a pun could not be funny.
 
@BESW In some ways I think nobody comes close to touching Tolkien as a worldbuilder.
 
@Catija well prepare yourself then :) In my case I tried to play with words crucify and the point, that author in context is Stephen King. Horror. But pun is meant to be a part of joke and if joke is explained, then it is not a joke anymore.
So there you go.
 
@NapoleonWilson You haven't watched enough tapes from the O. Henry Pun off ... Even the people who do well have puns that fail.
 
11:46 PM
@BESW I read the HHGTTG series, and it seemed to be a case of sacrificing plot for the sake of frequent laughs.
I've heard the Dirk Gently series has more of a plot though. I should give that a try some time.
 
@Eugene You have a very indirect sense of humor. Thanks for the explanation.
 
@Randal'Thor Or the Xanth books.
 
@Randal'Thor it does
 
@Randal'Thor HHGTTG definitely does that.
 
@Eugene, whoops, wanted to say you have a very indirect sense of humor.
 
11:47 PM
@user159517 first time was right ;)
 
@user159517 Better?
 
@Eugene ah, so for example rand might just as well say, "I hope you folks don't kill me and hide my body under the floor for admitting this, but my favorite author is Poe"
 
Without edit :)
 
@Randal'Thor I dunno. He's fascinating as a worldbuilder, but most of it is salad-bar appropriation of mythos and the rest is stuff that gets in the way of the stories he wound up trying to tell. Tolkien started from language and real-world myth, built a world out of that, and then started telling stories in it. That means his world is complex but not very original, and obstructs the stories as much as it supports them.
 
@Shog9 something like that.
 
11:48 PM
@Catija ah, didnt know one could edit chat messages.
 
Not that you have to be totally original to be creative, nor have to make worlds with stories in mind.
 
have we established story id asoff topic?
 
@user159517 You have about... four minutes to edit them yourself... down arrow on the left side of the post... after that, you have to be a mod. Also, only mods can edit other people's posts.
 
But his reputation doesn't, in my opinion, match his reality.
 
@Shog9 cc @steelersquirrel
@bleh No.
 
11:49 PM
@bleh Not exactly, but it's been discussed heavily. Napoleon has been biting his tongue all day, I fear he may bite it off.
 
@Catija Urrrgh, let's not get into Xanth again.
 
@Randal'Thor Her favourite author isn't Poe, though.
 
@BESW What, you're unhappy with the magical Florida analogue? :P
 
@Catija did not know, that mods here like to edit other people messages. Even with misspelling. By editing @user159517 first message sent to me, you've created a paradox.
 
I'm the first user to get the "Good question" badge on main or Meta! :D
 
11:50 PM
@Shog9 No, I'm actually glad I for once don't have to care that much aobut that discussion.
 
@Catija I'm unhappy with the seriously creepy endorsement of underage sex.
 
@Eugene I don't know that we "like to"... I did it to try and help... I can change it back if @user159517 wishes it.
 
@bleh Meta discussion is here. Top answer essentially says "They might be OK, as long as there aren't too many of them"; second answer essentially says "They're really good, let's give them a try".
 
And Xanth is some of the tamer of Anthony's works.
 
@NapoleonWilson No, but she likes puns and her sister likes Poe, so I thought she might appreciate that.
 
11:51 PM
@Catija no thanks, that's definitely not necessary
 
@Catija try to read messages from the one you changed. Logic got broken.
 
@Randal'Thor She also might like the thought of killing her sister and hiding her under the floor.
 
@Catija so as it is written - "with great power comes great responsibility".
 
@BESW I guess it depends on what you consider "underage"... if you really want to read something that hits the underage bar a little low for my taste, read Men, Women, and Children by Kultgen.
 
@Catija Anthony's works aren't exactly toeing the line. (link is text, but seriously not safe)
 
11:53 PM
o_o
 
He's more coy in Xanth, but no less portraying similar scenarios in similar positive terms.
 
TL;DR: don't read xanth if you don't want porn
 
@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ Also poorly vetted reader-submitted puns so he doesn't have to actually think of anything clever anymore.
 
@NapoleonWilson If you say so ;-)
@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ Thanks, I won't then.
 
11:58 PM
@BESW damn, that's really creepy.
 
@Randal'Thor ?
 
@BESW . . . That's effed.
 
Brrr, looks like voting has quieted down.
I guess nobody has any votes to use any more.
 
@Randal'Thor Probably because everyone ran out
 
@Randal'Thor It should go back up again in 2 minutes.
 
11:58 PM
Though, I haven't voted at all on Main because I'm busy at work...
 
@user159517 Anthony's like an everlasting font of creepy and/or spiteful.
 

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