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12:09 AM
@verbose Touche, though you should probably ask that to Eddie Kal instead ;)
12:26 AM
I mean, if English is the language of the Anglo-Saxons, why just Anglophone sonnets. Why not Saxophone sonnets. 🎷
1:09 AM
@NapoleonWilson He'd like people to stop making assertions about him or his opinions that he can neither confirm nor deny. He said he hasn't posted anything in two years, and only viewed the site because of a conversation with someone. He is not interested in participating on the site at this point.
3 hours later…
4:06 AM
At some point during the n-th revision of my "Caged Bird" answer, part of me started wondering why I'm spending so much time working on content for a literature site. English is honestly one of the subjects I like the least. But I like how here I can only deal with works that I enjoy, which is I think why I am, again, spending an hour re-writing this answer.
3 hours later…
6:50 AM
@EddieKal Noted.
2 hours later…
9:16 AM
@PrinceNorthLæraðr "Some myriad of these, with deliberate rhymes, if not metre or reason, perpetrated facts, have established that a copy of verses, consisting of exactly fourteen lines, is an English Sonnet."
9:55 AM
@bobble It's a good answer! But it really needs some commentary on the metaphor of the "caged bird"
10:31 AM
@verbose Because the saxophone was a Belgian invention :-P
10:47 AM
@Tsundoku aw, phooey.
Hey people!
@technastic_tc 👋🏽
A user wrote a brilliant answer to my question. But unfortunately, that user's account is no more.
If I recall correctly, it was Brahadeesh...
Does anyone have any idea what happened to that user?
@technastic_tc link to the q, please?
Q: Why does Khushwant Singh's grandmother consider music as a 'monopoly of harlots and beggars and not meant for gentlefolk'?

technastic_tcIn the story The Portrait of a Lady, written by Khushwant Singh, there are sentences which I couldn't understand properly (highlighted bold in the following excerpt): One day I announced that we were being given music lessons. She was very disturbed. To her music had lewd associations. It was th...

10:54 AM
welcome :)
Am I allowed to say "nobody the fuck knows" as part of my answer to a question?
Or would @Tsundoku et al. boot me off the site for unparliamentary language if I did?
@verbose Is your statement a response to my question or am I mistaken?
Oh no, it's an actual answer I'm writing to an actual question on the site. Though I suppose it might apply to yours in this chat as well.
@verbose The British want to be ignored by the EU, so I, as a Belgian will ignore them too :-P
11:04 AM
haha @Tsundoku
@technastic_tc Brahadeesh deleted their account because spending time on Stack Exchange took away too much time from his PhD work.
@Tsundoku Did he write any goodbye post?
Sadness. More people should be like me and just quit PhD programs in order to spend time on SE.
@technastic_tc If you mean a meta post, no.
@Tsundoku So Brahadeesh informed you?
11:08 AM
@technastic_tc See his message from 26 September.
It's sad to see him go :(
I hope he will return some day!
Thanks for the info @Tsundoku
See also S September: "I've been getting a bit stressed out with my PhD and SE had become a great way to procrastinate and not think about the problems I need to deal with :P So, I just decided to step away for a small while to sort things out."
Yes, I hope he will be back.
@Tsundoku oh..
@verbose haha..
Bye people!
11:24 AM
@verbose I assume the f-word will be ruthlessly edited out.
(My last comment used the same passive form as "mistakes were made".)
11:37 AM
haha @Tsundoku. I've settled on "nobody tf knows." hamevin yavin.
12:06 PM
Hoping for a well-researched answer by verbose, Gareth Rees or Peter Shor: Who coined the term ‘Shakespearean sonnet’?
Or anybody else who wishes to do the research :-)
British Literature to 1800: online textbook, freely accessible.
12:26 PM
Q: Who coined the term ‘Shakespearean sonnet’?

TsundokuSo far, we have had at least two questions about the early history of the English sonnet: Who introduced the sonnet to English literature? Wyatt or Shakespeare? Why are Shakespearean sonnets called Shakespearean sonnets? While researching and writing answers to both questions, I found that many...

1 hour later…
1:33 PM
Well @Tsundoku in deference to your Victorian sensibilities I went with "[nobody tf knows how to pronounce, let alone scan, Wyatt](https://literature.stackexchange.com/a/16439/289)". I hope yer happy.
@Randal'Thor I hope yer happy as well, coz you asked a [great q](https://literature.stackexchange.com/q/9024/289) that I've been meanin' to answer for, like, 2 fooken years and I finally got around to it.
H'm I wonder why the links aren't rendering as expected in those.
Like, I thought [foo](bar) where bar is a link turns foo into a link to bar, but that didn't happen
@verbose Markdown is disabled for multi-line messages -- see this answer on meta.
that's ... silly.
Why does that answer have so many downvotes?
It's not silly if people are mostly discussing programming, as they were in the early days of Stack Overflow (note that the linked answer is from 2010).
It's silly for chat rooms for other subjects (like Literature), but these other subjects didn't exist in 2010
I expect the downvotes are from people who got caught out by the "feature"
Ah. Thanks!
@verbose My "Victorian sensibilities"? LOL.
1:50 PM
@verbose Your answer is great, but I want to take issue with the idea that we don't know how to pronounce and scan Middle English -- we have the Ormulum to guide us
Wyatt isn't middle english
The whole point of Wyatt is that he's not middle english
He's clearly, definitely modern english right in the fucking middle of the Great Vowel Shift
and nobody knows how he pronounced words
as a result
i will die on this hill
We know how to pronounce Chaucer. We know how to pronounce Surrey.
Ok, fair enough
Wyatt? No effin clue
Wyatt wouldn't need to exist if he weren't modern English
you get the point :-)
@verbose So you assume that Wyatt's pronunciation differed significantly from Shakespeare's (as described, e.g. by Kökeritz) because of the effects of the Great Vowel Shift. (Not that I'm claiming that Shakespeare's pronunciation can be reconstructed beyond doubt.)
I don't assume. I know.
Like, John Thompson says the same thing.
The Founding of English Meter guy
1:56 PM
I guess I should put that book on my wish list :-)
It's only $9 or so (used hardcover) on amazon.com. What it would be in amazon.be of course I've no clue
but don't you have access to a research library?
I don't buy from Amazon as a matter of principle.
Good man
@verbose I work at a German "Fachhochschule", not at a proper university. Access to a research library? I wish.
oh me too man. I used to work at the university up the road. (Maybe you've heard of it, it's called Stanford)
1:59 PM
The Founding of English Metre is available for loan from the Internet Archive
The only thing I miss is the research library
Like, I worked in the damn library
at Stanford
The library at Stanford? At what time period were you there (if that's not too inquisitive a question)?
Just curious because René Girard was also at Stanford but he died in 2015.
Never met him, sadly. The one prof I worked with reasonably closely (barring those who were my friends) was Roland Greene
2:02 PM
I see; "a scholar of the early modern literature and culture of England, (...)"
yup. I took a class with him on 16th C poetics, which was also what my dissertation would have been on if I ever completed my PhD (not at Stanford, that was decades earlier)
I can't say that I have ever heard of Roland Greene, but he was apparently a student of Barabra Lewalski, whose name I have come across before.
yeah, she wrote Protestant Poetics. nice book
Q: Why did Halle have butter all over his face

Amarylis VaselaarIn Toni Morrison's novel Beloved, Sethe's husband Halle ,never came back to Baby Suggs' house after planning to run away from Sweet Home. After Paul D arrives ,he later blurts out to Sethe of what he saw of Halle, who had butter in his mouth Here are some screenshots of relevant paragraphs: S...

Oh, my wish list is growing again. This must stop :-P
2:05 PM
Just come visit me, Christophe, and hang out and read all those books off my bookshelf
California is nice and we even have a sane prez now
I need almost a lifetime to finish the unread books on my own shelves, let alone those of others...
@verbose Well, almost. Just a few more weeks.
true 'nuff. I worked my Ossoff to get him elected
2:25 PM
Speaking of Marlowe, I wanna establish a topless restaurant called Towers of Ilium
@verbose I wonder what sort of ships that launched.
And how many customers get the allusion.
@Bookworm Now THIS could be a nice candidate for HNQship, if the Q&A get enough upvotes in the next 6 hours.
(hint hint)
@Tsundoku Gravy boats, mostly
@Randal'Thor m, I'll upvote but it's been eons since I read Beloved. It's a bit outside my period
@Randal'Thor Indeed, it has the sort of answer we would want to showcase.
And the question is an interesting "literary" one (whatever that means) rather than something like "why didn't this character do this thing in LotR?"
(Poor LotR. It is a great piece of literature, but it's getting singled out as the poster child of undesirable HNQs.)
2:36 PM
Based on who the Lord of the Rings was, I wouldn't call him poor, though ;-)
@Randal'Thor See now I've been planning to ask How many children had Lady Macbeth?
@Randal'Thor Well, it could be HP. ;-)
@verbose Well, it's a question touched by various questions and answers on various SE sites already. Maybe just asking it straight up for once isn't the worst idea.
@Tsundoku I'm not altogether happy with that answer, because 1873 seems rather late and a school textbook an unlikely first use. But I did try eight different spellings of "Shaksperian"! I might try again at some point with more corpora.
@verbose And then invite L. C. Knights to answer it?
... he's dead?
2:43 PM
@verbose He lives on in his writings.
3:04 PM
@GarethRees I was trying to keep it more tightly focused on that line specifically - do you think that detouring to a general metaphor would improve my explanation of that line?
3:16 PM
@bobble Anecdotally, a lot of people seem to dislike literature because their school made them study something that didn't interest them. Especially Shakespeare, at least in the British school system. This site doesn't have that problem :-)
@technastic_tc Brahadeesh wrote a lot of nice answers, especially during the Narayan topic challenge. It was sad to lose him from the site.
@Tsundoku I once got away with "shit" in a meta post. But that was in response to the death of a respected user.
@verbose Thank you for the answer! I can already see it's a great answer, but it's going to take me a while to find time to read it in full.
@verbose The answer is from someone who was at that time an employee/spokesperson of SE, so probably the downvoters were holding her responsible for the disliked feature.
4:04 PM
@bobble If you're happy with the answer, then don't put yourself out on my account!
But what I have in mind is that in an extended metaphor, every part can be read two ways. So it's not so much a case of the poem being about a bird in a cage, and then a separate metaphor where the bird stands for African-Americans; but rather, every line is simultaneously about both subjects.
See this question and its answer for an example of taking a simile and trying to figure out how each part of it can be read both ways.
2 hours later…
5:52 PM
@Randal'Thor Let's hope that he will come back some day 🤞
2 hours later…
7:25 PM
in The Restaurant at the End of the Universe, 5 hours ago, by DavidW
Huh. If someone wants a project less daunting than "enter image description here" I just noticed there are well over a hundred posts that misspell "Millennium Falcon." :)
Q: What did George Orwell try to communicate with "Animal Farm"?

Anirban SahaWhat exactly is the message that George Orwell tried to communicate through Animal Farm. What exactly did he mean by The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again: but already it was impossible to say which was which. Or with how the name "Manor Farm"

3 hours later…
10:16 PM
@Bookworm The question about the term "Shakespearean sonnet" became HNQ two hours ago.
10:42 PM
German Language SE currently has a moderator election, or rather, the election period would have started already if they had had sufficient candidates. The nomination phase has been extended until Sunday evening.
11:30 PM
@GarethRees slight problem with this approach: I don't see any metaphor. I guess I could try to look harder, but the straightforward interpretation in my answer is the one that I saw, and it makes sense to me.

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