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Bookworm
Bookworm
12:01 AM
0
Q: Novel in which a killer says "There. There." as she or he stabs people

johndiiiI have a vague memory of a book in which a killer (perhaps a serial killer) says "There. There." as they stab someone. I think the killer is female, but I am not certain of that. It even might be some means of killing other than stabbing. I think he killing is retribution for some kind of abuse. ...

story-identification
 
BESW
BESW
12:11 AM
@Hamlet I've got a pro-forma comment for this:
> The Stack wants answers which connect all the dots, without leaving anything as an exercise for the reader.
2
 
Shokhet
Shokhet
12:25 AM
@Catija All right. I hope you enjoy your vacation! :)
@Randal'Thor Hi :)
@Ash Makes sense. Will keep that in mind for future tweets. Thanks for the feedback! :)
 
user15026
@Shokhet no problem! :D
 
heather
heather
hello
 
Rand al'Thor
Rand al'Thor
@heather Hi again! :-)
 
heather
heather
@Randal'Thor I cleaned up the summaries and made my reasoning as to why it is a political allegory more specific. I'm doing research about the Populist party right now, and the more I read, the more I think it is likely that the Populist party's merge with the Democratic party could be what's alluded to.
 
Rand al'Thor
Rand al'Thor
@heather Excellent! I was planning to ping you about that answer again, because I think it's close to becoming a really good answer even if it isn't quite there yet - definitely worth putting more time into.
 
Librarian
Librarian
12:38 AM
0
Q: Dealing with questions about comics

heather Are comic-identification questions on-topic? (I asked one, and created a tag for it - should it be tagged story-identification?) When tagging comics, should we have a tag for the writer and a tag for the illustrator and a tag for the title? (What I did when tagging.)

discussion tags scope story-identification
 
Bookworm
Bookworm
0
Q: Finding comic referenced in semi-classic physics problem

heatherA physics problem in my book (and apparently in others, from the hits Google gives) goes Comic-strip hero Superman meets an asteroid in outer space and hurls it at 800 m/s, as fast as a bullet. The asteroid is a thousand times more massive than Superman. In the strip, Superman is seen at rest...

comics comic-identification superman jerry-siegel joe-shuster
 
heather
heather
@Randal'Thor there's another interesting point I just realized -
Oz is a mainly agrarian society, which is what most of the Populists were a part of
most Populists were farmers.
 
Rand al'Thor
Rand al'Thor
Oh, something I meant to say earlier: political plotlines do precede Ozma of Oz. You might want to take a closer look at The Marvellous Land of Oz (I think that's the title) - it starts off being a small-scale story about a farmboy going to the city, and ends up being about the great and the good of Oz finding the lost ruler Ozma to put her on the throne. That story could be the place where the Oz books become more political in plot.
 
heather
heather
> the Wizard brought her the infant Ozma, whom she transformed into ... the boy Tip. At first, Tip is utterly shocked and appalled to learn this, but Glinda and his friends help him to accept his destiny, and Mombi performs her last spell to undo the curse, turning him back into the fairy princess Ozma.

The restored Ozma is established on the throne after defeating Jinjur and her army.
(as per wikipedia)
and yeah, that's the title.
 
Rand al'Thor
Rand al'Thor
Yep, that's the end of the story. The surprise twist is that the girl Ozma they were seeking is actually the boy Tip who's been the hero all along.
 
heather
heather
12:51 AM
right, yeah.
 
Rand al'Thor
Rand al'Thor
And that's book #2.
 
heather
heather
yep.
 
Rand al'Thor
Rand al'Thor
So yes, that is the start of political plotlines in the Oz books.
 
heather
heather
i've read through the stories =)
I'll add that to my answer.
added
 
BESW
BESW
1:24 AM
[amused] The first Oz book is very political.
 
BESW
BESW
1:45 AM
OhdearGodIthoughtIwasgonnablowagasketholdingthisin. Big news re THE FIFTH SEASON! http://deadline.com/2017/08/nk-jemisin-the-fifth-season-book-developed-tv-series-tnt-1202150542/
Tweeted by nkjemisin on August 16, 2017 at 11:44 PM
 
 
5 hours later…
Hamlet
Hamlet
7:05 AM
@Randal'Thor yikes, that's very very incorrect.
2
@Randal'Thor ??? Where did i say anything about reputable sources. The only requirement is backing claims up, and explaining why and how
@Randal'Thor no, it's not. Post notice + deletion is the tool to use here.
 
 
6 hours later…
skullpatrol
skullpatrol
1:07 PM
No hard feelings @Mithrandir
 
Mithrandir
Mithrandir
well that's good
 
skullpatrol
skullpatrol
:-)
I just felt semi-responsible for leading him into the convo
If you notice, that was his only remark.
 
 
5 hours later…
Shokhet
Shokhet
6:21 PM
Got excited when I saw that #askalibrarian was trending, but I don't think there's a good way for our Twitter to use that tag. Seems to be entirely book recommendations:
Need ideas for what to read next? Tweet with #AskALibrarian for the next hour to get reading suggestions from real… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/898211624712122368
Tweeted by fvrl on August 17, 2017 at 3:55 PM
Either, way, if y'all are on Twitter and want book recs, you can ask for one on Twitter right now:
@BESW Something about gold vs silver currency, right?
 
Gallifreyan
Gallifreyan
 
 
1 hour later…
Gilles
Gilles
7:40 PM
 
Gallifreyan
Gallifreyan
> To clarify, spiders are not on-topic here. Ever
Aww
@Gilles Would I get kicked for posting spiders?
 
Gilles
Gilles
@Gallifreyan yes
 
Mithrandir
Mithrandir
 
Gallifreyan
Gallifreyan
7:56 PM
@Gilles That's racist.
 
Gilles
Gilles
@Gallifreyan no, it applies to all races of spiders
 
Mithrandir
Mithrandir
That's speciesism. What about sentient dogs, cats, and hemaphroditic extra-planetary aliens? — Michael Meadows Jul 9 '09 at 14:30
 
Gallifreyan
Gallifreyan
@Gilles ^ What Mith said.
 
Gilles
Gilles
@Gallifreyan it's classist, actually
possibly even phylumist
 
BESW
BESW
8:33 PM
@Shokhet The allegory depends on who you ask, but you don't have to dig at all to find a cynical story about a political charlatan who exploits an innocent person's distress in order to take down a rival.
 
BESW
BESW
8:55 PM
Personally I'm not convinced there's a specific one-to-one correspondence allegory, and there doesn't need to be for a story to contain political commentary or satire.

Terrifying Nightmare Monsters

Because the meanies in the Aww! room hate spiders (chat.stacke...
 
Rand al'Thor
Rand al'Thor
@Hamlet I only said political plotlines, not political allegory. I.e. up until then the story revolves around ordinary simple people rather than rulers and coups and power play. (Also, why ping me? @heather is the one who's written an answer on the main site based on this conclusion!)
@Hamlet Well, what if an answer makes a claim and backs it up by linking to Shmoop?
 
BESW
BESW
@Randal'Thor Well then, the middle arc in Wonderful Wizard of Oz is absolutely a political story. As soon as Dorothy hits the city of Oz, she's embroiled in some rather scary political machinations that end with the Wizard using her to assassinate his main rival.
Our protagonist doesn't care about the politics, but that doesn't make it less political (cf Remains of the Day).
 
Rand al'Thor
Rand al'Thor
But after a certain point, the protagonists do care about the politics, and it becomes a "we need to get/keep So-and-so in power" story rather than "I just want to get home" or even "oops, I've got tangled up in some power play I don't really understand".
 
BESW
BESW
9:10 PM
That's a good distinction to make, which is not implied solely in "political plotlines."
 
Gallifreyan
Gallifreyan
I KNEW IT!!!
Sorry.
I knew I've heard Avasarala's voice before! And now I know where - Mass Effect, the Quarian general.
 
Rand al'Thor
Rand al'Thor
Hmm, @Hamlet, I'm beginning to see what you mean about un-backed-up answers ... :-/
Still, some more downvotes would sort those out. (None of the linked answers had any downvotes until just now.)
I'm not convinced that post notices and deletion are the way to go, because it takes too much of the moderation out of the hands of the community.
Although, even Emrakul's answer to that mechanical hound question isn't very well supported. @Emrakul Any chance you could expand on this a bit? :-)
 
Hamlet
Hamlet
9:26 PM
@Randal'Thor there's two parts to the test. Is the answer backed up? And does the answer explain why. Most, if not all, of the answers that cite schmoop fail the second test.
@Randal'Thor why? People can still flag things. We could do something like well only add a post notice if it gets x flags.
 
BESW
BESW
 
Hamlet
Hamlet
@Randal'Thor downvotes should be used to evaluate whether an argument is compelling. If an answer doesn't have an argument...
 
Rand al'Thor
Rand al'Thor
@Hamlet Another question then is, what counts as backing up? Clearly we won't always require links or citations (because close reading); sometimes explaining why is enough on its own.
@Hamlet People can still flag things, but only moderators can add post notices (or delete upvoted answers, but hopefully that's a finite bounded problem). And if you rely on an answer getting x flags, why not rely on it getting x downvotes?
 
Hamlet
Hamlet
Then it's impossible for votes to work, because you can't vote on whether an argument is convincing if there is no argument.
@Randal'Thor experience, arguments, quotes, and citations all count.
 
Rand al'Thor
Rand al'Thor
@Hamlet No, downvotes should be used to evaluate the quality of an answer, whatever that may mean to the voter. Answers with no argument, or a poor argument, would both be bad answers and deserve downvotes.
 
BESW
BESW
9:32 PM
While a student in Oxford, writer #DianaWynneJones attended lectures by #CSLewis ("a superb lecturer") & #JRRTolkien ("almost inaudible").
Tweeted by DrPnygard on August 16, 2017 at 7:57 PM
 
Hamlet
Hamlet
Essentially, you need to explain where you get your info/beliefs from.
@Randal'Thor ok, here's my response.
When it comes to questions, there are two tools. There are votes, and there are close votes.
Votes are, in practice, whatever you want them to be. In theory, votes measure a subjective quality: whether a question is good or bad.
Close votes are used when questions can not be answered, because the question is outside the sites area of expertise, or is too broad, etc.
A question can be both closed and highly upvoted.
When it comes to answers, we have one tool: votes, which measure a subjective good or bad quality about each answer.
 
Rand al'Thor
Rand al'Thor
Agreed on all points so far. (I've also written about this elsewhere.)
 
Hamlet
Hamlet
However, what we are finding is that some people are posting answers that aren't answers at all.
Sometimes these non answers get downvoted. A lot of the time they get upvoted.
 
Rand al'Thor
Rand al'Thor
If it's not an answer at all, it can be flagged as such and deleted.
 
Hamlet
Hamlet
But what is missing from the equation is that these answers don't even qualify as answers, and that normal voting is not the tool to use here.
@Randal'Thor let me explain what I mean by non answer.
What we are finding on this site, which is about a subjective topic, is that there is no such thing as a correct answer. There is only a well argued answer.
We are beginning to see that a question can receive two answers that completely contradict each other, and that both answers can be "right"
 
user15026
9:44 PM
Well, sometimes there are (story-id, for one)
 
Hamlet
Hamlet
There are two ways we can go from here.
We can have answers that consist of a statement, e.g. "X represents a." "X represents b."
If These two contradictory answers are posted on the same question, everything about the Stack Exchange model breaks down
How can we judge which answer is better. In an objective field, there is one answer.
 
Rand al'Thor
Rand al'Thor
Downvote both and wait for someone to post a well-argued answer.
We talked about this with reading order questions at the very beginning.
> Well, clearly an answer should be more than just "read the books in this order" or "here's the order I read them in" - such minimalist answers should be downvoted. A really good answer should not only give a suggested reading order but also some objective supporting evidence for why that particular order is recommended.
Same goes for analysis questions. No support? Downvote. Well argued? Probably worth an upvote whether or not you agree with the conclusion.
 
Hamlet
Hamlet
How can we judge which answer is better. In an objective field, there is one answer. So in a Stack about an objective topic, you can vote for the answer that is correct.
But as this example illustrates, in a subjective Stack, without an argument it's not that the answer is bad. The answer is useless.
1) you can't evaluate the answer based on its argument because there is no argument.
2) to anyone doing research and arriving through Google, the answer isn't helpful because there is no argument that they could include in their research
3) philosophically, its not an answer.
 
user15026
9:59 PM
Watching this extended conversation, I mostly find myself wondering how you're going to enforce whatever you are coming up with
 
Hamlet
Hamlet
Again, there is no such thing as an answer without an argument in a subjective field.
 
user15026
Because a lot of what you seem to want to do veers well away from the general SE stances on how to use votes etc.
 
Hamlet
Hamlet
@Ash post notice, delete within a month if not edited.
 
Rand al'Thor
Rand al'Thor
@Ash Well, Hamlet is proposing slapping post notices on, and eventually deleting, any answer which doesn't meet the criteria.
(ninja'd)
 
Hamlet
Hamlet
@Ash yes. But the general stance comes from Stack Overflow, which is as objective as it can get.
We have a different set of challenges and need different tools.
 
user15026
10:02 PM
@Hamlet Oh, I realize that, I just am pointing out that the network as a whole has a general sort of idea on how things should work, so you're working well outside that, which means you're going to have to be really willing to educate people and work with them
 
Rand al'Thor
Rand al'Thor
@Hamlet So, downvote it. (Also, if you can make a good enough argument for 3), we don't need any special tooling for this - but I don't think we can make a case that unsupported answers are NaA in Stack Exchange terms.)
 
Hamlet
Hamlet
An answer without an argument is noise. It's not useful to anyone. It's not worth keeping around.
 
user15026
It kiiiinda feels like you are bashing SE-the-platform into something that kinda sorta works with your vision, but it's not really how it was designed to work. Not saying it can't (because this is not the first subjective site ever), but I'm not sure how well this will.
 
Hamlet
Hamlet
A bad argument is worth keeping around, because you can evaluate it, learn from it, maybe it has sources to follow up on.
8
A: Can post notices on the hard-science tag actually do something?

Shog9This is one of those areas where a topic breaks the model a bit. For questions, we have essentially two axes for voting: Closing a question - possible even if highly upvoted - makes it eligible for deletion and prevents answers from being posted, providing strong encouragement for improvemen...

 
Rand al'Thor
Rand al'Thor
Look at it this way: answers can be measured according to how well they support their arguments. A really well-argued and backed-up answer scores highly on that scale; a shorter answer with less support would have a lower score; and an answer with no argument at all scores zero. But they can all be measured on the same scale.
 
user15026
10:05 PM
@Hamlet oh, I know.
 
Hamlet
Hamlet
@Randal'Thor it's not worth keeping around. It's not an answer. It should be deleted.
@Randal'Thor no.
 
user15026
You have a very rigid view of what an answer is.
 
user15026
@Randal'Thor I can agree with that.
 
Hamlet
Hamlet
@Randal'Thor in practice, what we see is that people aren't voting that way.
People are voting as if this was an objective topic. As if answers can be correct. This is why people upvoted stuff that is poorly argued but makes sense to them personally.
 
Rand al'Thor
Rand al'Thor
@Hamlet Aren't or weren't? I think people are mostly voting more sensibly now.
 
Hamlet
Hamlet
10:09 PM
@Randal'Thor are and were.
But answers can't be correct, only well argued.
 
user15026
@Hamlet by that logic there should never be an accepted answer...
 
Hamlet
Hamlet
@Ash yes, that is right.
We shouldn't have accepted answers on this site.
 
user15026
....that goes against the system, that's not workable
 
Hamlet
Hamlet
@Ash it goes against the software
 
user15026
@Hamlet well, yes
 
Rand al'Thor
Rand al'Thor
10:13 PM
@Ash You're talking to the guy who posted this ;-)
 
Hamlet
Hamlet
Philosophically, q&A without accepted answers works just fine.
Anyway...
 
user15026
You seem to want some sort of discussion platform, not actual strong Q&A
 
Hamlet
Hamlet
@Ash no
Anyway...
 
Gallifreyan
Gallifreyan
OPA! OPA! OPA! OPA!
 
Hamlet
Hamlet
Whether an argument is good or bad is a subjective question.
It's something that votes can and should evaluate.
Whether an argument exists is an objective question.
 
Gallifreyan
Gallifreyan
10:16 PM
@Hamlet That would imply voters knew what they're voting on, this isn't always the case.
 
Hamlet
Hamlet
Furthermore, an answer without an argument isn't an answer. It is useless to everyone.
Someone reading the question from Google with limited knowledge of the topic can't decide if the argument is persuasive enough for them to use/believe in the answer.
 
Rand al'Thor
Rand al'Thor
@Hamlet In theory yes, but in practice we don't seem to agree on which answers count as having no argument whatsoever.
 
Hamlet
Hamlet
Answers without arguments don't allow people to follow up on the research (e.g. investigate the sources cited), because there is no research.
Etc etc.
@Randal'Thor in practice we would arrive at a consensus, just like all sites arrive at a consensus for how to use close votes.
 
user15026
Also, if you're going to make massive changes to how people should approach the site, and the post notices and stuff, you should probably bring this to meta so people who don't participate in chat still get a voice.
 
Rand al'Thor
Rand al'Thor
When you linked that General Washington answer as an example, I lost a lot of faith in your proposal. It seems you were interpreting the question differently from everyone else, and therefore seeing the answer as NaA because of what exactly it was answering.
@Ash I don't think anyone's proposing putting any policy into practice without a long meta discussion first ...
 
user15026
10:21 PM
Just checking :)
 
Hamlet
Hamlet
@Ash i won't bring this to meta. My plan is to persuade Rand. Rand, if persuaded, would make the meta post.
 
Rand al'Thor
Rand al'Thor
:-O
 
Gallifreyan
Gallifreyan
Eeeeevil.
 
Rand al'Thor
Rand al'Thor
You should change your username to Macchiavelli! :-D
 
user15026
@Hamlet And if you can't persuade Rand?
 
Hamlet
Hamlet
10:22 PM
@Ash then it doesn't happen. (And the site is ruined, etc etc)
 
user15026
hmm, okay.....
 
Rand al'Thor
Rand al'Thor
@Hamlet Oh, another important point to bear in mind: by proposing deletion rather than just downvoting for unexplained answers, you may cause more people to defend such answers even against their better judgement. There's a lot of answers on any site which I would downvote and condemn but which I don't think are worthy of deletion and would defend if that were suggested.
You don't want to turn people from "these answers are bad, we should downvote them" to "these answers don't deserve deletion, now we have to defend them".
 
Hamlet
Hamlet
(If I post it, people won't listen, bc I leave all sorts of comments on answers, and it would be seen as me trying to push my personal standards on the site. Also, if I can't persuade Rand, then I won't be able to persuade the community. You need to start with one person. Rand was interested in the idea, so I'm starting with Rand).
 
Rand al'Thor
Rand al'Thor
In terms of community attitude, it may actually be better to leave these answers as they are. Right now, we see it as a problem that crap has got upvotes, and enough downvotes will solve that problem. If their deletion became a major discussion point, then that (perceived overmoderation) would be a problem in many people's eyes, and they'd then subconsciously think of those answers more positively.
 
Hamlet
Hamlet
@Randal'Thor it would be like close votes. No action would be taken unless an answer received a certain amount of flags. Which I think should address the problem of having one mod disagree with the rest of the community.
@Randal'Thor maybe. I think it depends on how it's presented.
Which is one reason why I'm trying to persuade you to get on board; youre a lot better at that.
 
Rand al'Thor
Rand al'Thor
10:31 PM
@Hamlet For sure. Just wanted to make sure we're aware of this issue (though I guess you already were).
 
Hamlet
Hamlet
Anyway, I think I've made my case, and I have to go.
 
 
1 hour later…
Rand al'Thor
Rand al'Thor
11:52 PM
Controversial question with an even more controversial title. If it gets a good answer quick, it could go HNQ and bring traffic to the site!
 

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