Why downvotes shouldn't be obligatory; side comments

Anonymous

Oct 18, 2016 16:49

Well Hi @Rubisco :-P Yeah we are back to square 1.

Rubisco

Hey @ZOZ, welcome to chat

I can't be sure if you were here before, but whatever.

See, there are a few strong arguments against making downvote comments mandatory.

Lemme find a post

Anonymous

Well we had a long chat once upon a time =)

Anonymous

Sure

Anonymous

Maybe we can conduct a vote session for all the members of Chem SE in meta

Rubisco

10

A: Reasoning or commenting before downvoting

This is literally the most asked question on the meta history of SE. Almost every per site meta gets it and the mother meta – meta.SE – well. Just as I said in my comment: Votes are meant to be anonymized and you shouldn't be to find out who voted how on what. People would post useless comment...

Anonymous

Oct 18, 2016 16:53

That one problem of bypassing the system by bogus comments can definitely be solved. The bogus comment can be reported to the moderator who should be given the power of nullifying the downvote

Rubisco

@ZOZ Did you give my post a read?

And my first comment below the question.

Anonymous

Yes I read it

Anonymous

See^

Rubisco

@ZOZ A thousand downvotes are given everyday. Less than 50 are commented on. How do you expect the moderators to catch up with the mess that the other 950 leave?

And a lot of downvotes are on obviously stupid questions.

Anonymous

No.We do not report all comments.We report only the down-voters who made stupid comments...that will amount to max 50 in a day.

Rubisco

Oct 18, 2016 16:55

I don't ever want to be made to explain my downvote when I downvote a blatant homework dump with no cooperation from the OP's side even after I comment and notify them of the policy.

@ZOZ You just guesstimate that

And that's only the case in a site like Chem.

SO will get million of unnecessary comments.

Anonymous

Yes...can you prove my guess wrong? Bigger sites have more moderators to handle the task!

Rubisco

@ZOZ SO has only 17 moderators.

@ZOZ I can't. But you're the one making a proposition. You should prove it first.

Look at this excuse of a question

-3

Q: Determining equilibrium concentration

Using the value of Kc you experimentally found determine the concentration of SCN- at equilibrium if 150 mL of 0.24 M Fe3+ is added to 50mL of SCN- solution and the equilibrium concentration of FeSCN2+ is 2.5x10-7 M Kc= 63.217

Were each of the downvoters to add their reasoning, we'd at best have three redundant comments.

Anonymous

Ok another solution.... few community members among us can downvote stupid comments justifying downvotes ... say if 3 community members decide to downvote the stupid comment then their downvote gets nullified

Rubisco

And you're missing the primary point of why we downvote things.

The primary purpose of voting is to signal quality.

When Mr. Expert McExpert visits, he sees the question with the -3 and already thinks that it's not worth his time.

Anonymous

No the primary point of voting is to signal quality as well as give a feedback to users...

orthocresol

Oct 18, 2016 17:02

@Rubisco Nope, it is worth my time.

Rubisco

Thus the questions that do deserve that answer, the ones with effort, clear grammar and formatting, and interesting concepts behind them get the answer.

orthocresol

Worth my time to open it and downvote it one more time.

Anonymous

@Rubisco did you read this " Ok another solution.... few community members among us can downvote stupid comments justifying downvotes ... say if 3 community members decide to downvote the stupid comment then their downvote gets nullified "

orthocresol

Too much clutter.

Rubisco

@ZOZ You're adding complexity to a system that doesn't to improve in the way you want it to.

Anonymous

Oct 18, 2016 17:03

Well how doesn't it improve? Can you please explain ?

Anonymous

It's already a complex system...much complexity won't increase

Rubisco

Right now, the only problem we might call as real is a LACK of downvotes.

Not the downvotes out of spite. Not the serial downvoting.

Those get a lot of whining dedicated to them on metas.

Anonymous

No.The real problem is we do not have many users

Rubisco

But the fact is, 0.00001 percent of the votes are cast out of spite.

Anonymous

As users increase downvotes increase

Vedant

Oct 18, 2016 17:05

hi

Rubisco

@ZOZ That's not a problem. That's a reflection of where in the site's evolution we stand.

@Vedant Howdy

@ZOZ But not proportionally. SO suffers a lack of downvotes way more than us.

We're evolving.

Thus our problems are soft.

Much softer than theirs.

Vedant

whoa heated arguement??

wat r we talkin about

Rubisco

The site will evolve the way we wanted it to.

@Vedant Hot, but not heated.

Anonymous

SO suffers from lack of downvotes! Please prove it

Anonymous

I don't believe SO lacks downvotes

Rubisco

Oct 18, 2016 17:07

@ZOZ Go to SEDE, find a query, and see the number of upvotes versus the number of downvotes, and then take a look at how many good users have already left SO because of the overflow of the crappy homework questions that get answers, not downvotes.

Vedant

whats SO

noobie look

Rubisco

@Vedant Stack Overflow, the biggest beast of this land

I've been here almost everyday for two years @ZOZ. I know what I'm talking about. Right now, only perhaps one out of a thousand new SO posts is high quality.

Anonymous

Obviously upvotes>>>downvotes...no one likes negativity! That's true even in real life.....no idea why you vouch for downvotes.... -3 is sufficient to nullify any question/answer

Vedant

oooohhhhhhh! sorry for the dumb question

Rubisco

@ZOZ You still haven't understood what downvotes are for. Let me find more posts for you.

Anonymous

Oct 18, 2016 17:09

Even I've been there for 2 years there...more questions implies more dumb questions obvioulsy

Vedant

so u on SO too @Rubisco

Anonymous

*obviously

Vedant

@Rubisco who doesnt know what downvotes are for????

Rubisco

@Vedant I've never posted there. I only help moderate.

@ZOZ But not necessarily a larger ratio of dumber questions.

@Vedant I bet you don't either.

10

A: What is the purpose of downvotes on questions?

Closure and downvotes are meant to be very different things for very different purposes. Closure is the process that stops some questions from getting answers. Closing is the official "sorry, this doesn't fit our model and hence we refrain from answering it" response. It's not related to how use...

This is philosophical.

Vedant

@Rubisco i do

Rubisco

Oct 18, 2016 17:11

@Vedant Yay. The problem is, most users don't. Or they won't bash downvotes so much.

Anonymous

Necessarily a larger ratio of dumb questions because average people do not care much for quality

Anonymous

and we have huge number of average users

Anonymous

>>>>quality users

Anonymous

in number

Rubisco

@ZOZ Let's define average people.

It's users that only care about themselves.

Sometimes, they think they're above the rules.

Vedant

Oct 18, 2016 17:12

stackoverflow.com/help/privileges/vote-down @Rubisco @ZOZ

srry if its alreadt mentioned

Rubisco

Sometimes, they've been lied to too much, they think they're the next genius the world will bow to.

Vedant

*already

Rubisco

No, it's okay.

Anonymous

Yeah number of such people in the world is huge...more than you can imagine

Anonymous

that justifies lack of quality

Rubisco

Oct 18, 2016 17:13

And lack of quality justifies downvotes.

You're rating the post, not the person.

You're not saying 'you're ugly', but 'your post is ugly'.

You're not insulting anyone.

Vedant

@Rubisco hahaha

Rubisco

You're not attacking anyone.

You're just indicating the quality.

Anonymous

and when it is downvoted one must also point out why they are downvoting

Rubisco

See, @ZOZ?

Vedant

@Rubisco thats correct

Anonymous

Oct 18, 2016 17:14

so that we can improve the quality of average users

Anonymous

I was an average user once

Rubisco

@ZOZ Why?

Why would a signal need extra explanation?

Vedant

@ZOZ that is how it should bedone

it should be compulsice actually

Rubisco

When someone is honking, do they need to add a comment on why they honked?

Don't get me wrong, ZOZ.

Anonymous

To point out the mistake they are making

Rubisco

Oct 18, 2016 17:15

It's very nice if people explain their downvotes.

Vedant

@Rubisco but on SO you lose rep

Rubisco

That's clear to everyone.

Anonymous

To correct them

Anonymous

To teach them

Anonymous

I was an average user once and because of the feedbacks i'm improving

Rubisco

Oct 18, 2016 17:16

People that risk getting revenge downvoted and comment on their downvote are heroes, ZOZ.

But not everyone is a hero.

Sometimes, people are just normal.

Vedant

@Rubisco That will also help the person answer or the the asker

Rubisco

@ZOZ Yes, and this is very nice. But why should nice be obligatory?

That's more like a dictatorship, ZOZ. You MAKE people nice.

Vedant

Rubisco

@Vedant We're not fighting.

Anonymous

Just to force them to improve! One must improve! Call it dictatorship or whatever but everyone loves to become a hero and everyone realizes that being nice is rewarding(after they transform)

Rubisco

Oct 18, 2016 17:19

I am enjoying this conversation.

Vedant

http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/252677/when-is-it-justifiable-to-downvote-a-question THIS SOLVES IT PEOPLE
@Rubisco @ZOZ

Rubisco

@ZOZ Well then I have to disappoint you. SE is a democracy, as much as that could mean online. We don't dictate things.

People go away, and your site fails, if you dictate.

@Vedant I've read all of those posts more than ten times. :)

Vedant

@Rubisco whoa somebodys gettting angry

Rubisco

@Vedant No, the 'you' is generic.

You might pick it up in your future English lessons.

Vedant

@Rubisco dude i aint a kid

Anonymous

Oct 18, 2016 17:21

Anyways those who post low quality content go away after sometime...Well in a democracy we should have an election then whether to have silent downvotes or not!

Vedant

stop acting bossy @Rubisco

Rubisco

@Vedant ? What does learning English have to do with being a kid?

Anonymous

Those people who leave...leave anyway...but we must help those improve who linger on

Vedant

future English lessons. @Rubisco who are they for

Anonymous

We must help them by feedbacks

Rubisco

Oct 18, 2016 17:22

@ZOZ Let's clear something up here first.

We're NOT here to spoonfeed homework answers to people.

@Vedant For learners of English, like you and I.

This site is meant to help people.

But how will it do it?

Anonymous

Of course not...homeworks deserve a downvote and a comment

Rubisco

By becoming a source of knowledge.

Anonymous

Not a silent downvote

ringo

Good job @orthocresol

Rubisco

@ZOZ A silent downvote is not that useful to the asker but it's certainly useful to others visiting the question.

Vedant

Oct 18, 2016 17:24

@ringo hi and what>>

*??

Anonymous

No...a commented downvote is even more useful to both asker and viewer

Anonymous

EVEN MORE helpful

Rubisco

@ZOZ Homework vampires are the ones that linger on, man. This system is designed to attract experts. The ones that flee, the ones that MATTER, are experts.

@ZOZ Again, why would we want to dictate this?

It's like a hellish heaven.

Anonymous

No man...i was a homework vampires once converted to a better user now

Anonymous

We are not dictating

Anonymous

Oct 18, 2016 17:26

Even a democracy has rules man

Rubisco

A heaven you didn't opt for.

A heaven you're not free in.

@ZOZ But we are, if I don't want to comment and you make me.

@ZOZ But there is no oppression.

Vedant

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oops i didnt mean to do that

Rubisco

@Vedant Where do I click 'accept' and move on?

Anonymous

Telling someone to comment for their downvote is oppression ?

Anonymous

Ridiculous

Rubisco

Oct 18, 2016 17:28

@ZOZ Making them is.

Vedant

@Rubisco down right corner you have to click show more

Rubisco

@Vedant I know, I was kidding

Vedant

@Rubisco i know that too, you playful *****

Anonymous

I do not believe that is oppression...I live in the world's largest democracy....but still I am forced to vote for elections...is that oppression?

Rubisco

Nom nom curses

Anonymous

Oct 18, 2016 17:29

No

Anonymous

Everyone has some duties

Rubisco

@ZOZ If you're forced to vote in the elections, that's oppression.

@ZOZ But it's NOT my duty to explain my downvote.

Vedant

@Rubisco what??

orthocresol

@ringo Meh. A lot of questions can be cleaned up, I just can't be bothered most of the time.

Anonymous

Then India is not a democracy? Well I just cannot agree with you. Sorry

Rubisco

Oct 18, 2016 17:30

@ZOZ Is anyone forced to vote in the elections in America?

No.

In Iran? No.

In a zillion countries around the world? No.

So if you are forced, and we're not, I guess that makes us a superdemocracy-freedom-giant thing.

Anonymous

Well you can see the America situation. Meh :-P

Anonymous

Okay lets agree to disagree as I said.

Rubisco

Heh, I wondered when he suddenly disappeared.

Anonymous

yep

Vedant

@Rubisco you indian too

Rubisco

Oct 18, 2016 17:34

@Vedant No.

@ZOZ Let's rethink about what you were proposing.

Anonymous

He is Iranese :-)

Anonymous

Yeah

Anonymous

sure

Vedant

@ZOZ :)

Rubisco

Imagine what happened if you had to pick up an injured bird whenever you saw it on the ground @ZOZ.

You were made to do it.

Vedant

Oct 18, 2016 17:35

@Rubisco CASED

Rubisco

You were made to fix the birdie's wing every time.

Anonymous

Well you know...such a stupid rule will never be approved in a democracy

Anonymous

in a democracy people fix the rules

Anonymous

so lets conduct an election

Rubisco

What election?

You want a poll on meta?

Anonymous

Oct 18, 2016 17:37

yeah poll

Rubisco

Well, you have to write the post I'm afraid.

Anonymous

sorry for the wrong word

Anonymous

ok i will

Rubisco

Since I don't want a -5 post on my record.

10

A: Reasoning or commenting before downvoting

This is literally the most asked question on the meta history of SE. Almost every per site meta gets it and the mother meta – meta.SE – well. Just as I said in my comment: Votes are meant to be anonymized and you shouldn't be to find out who voted how on what. People would post useless comment...

Anonymous

hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Rubisco

Oct 18, 2016 17:38

This one is -5 FYI ZOZ

And arguably, it doesn't have many downvotes.

This idea comes up every now and then on meta.SE.

Every time bang shut, with a score worse than -15.

Anonymous

that was not a poll

Rubisco

It is a feature request.

Votes on feature-requests indicate agreement/disagreement.

Consider also, that it was posted at a time when we thought we were being too harsh on the askers on the main site.

Anonymous

ok i will take the downvotes

Rubisco

The atmosphere on the meta was like that.

Now it's much different, and we're much more focused.

So you might break a -10 record. ;)

@ZOZ I see. You want to be heard. Fair enough. But I don't think you will be thrown any other arguments than I already did.

Anonymous

Maybe someone somewhere will be inspired and start commenting on downvotes

Anonymous

Oct 18, 2016 17:42

Rest wont

Rubisco

I've been doing this for so many times, I already predict the outcome of meta posts ZOZ. When you get to be the top meta participant for such a long time, you get to pick up a few things.

@ZOZ The ones that will, do already.

See Mart, for instance.

He won't comment on a homework crap with 0.0001 percent chance of turning into something salvageable.

But he will comment when he downvotes ron.

True story. You can ask @Mart

Sometimes, posts just CAN'T improve and you have to accept that.

Anonymous

There is close option for them

Anonymous

which cant improve

Rubisco

Not everything is closable, and you didn't give what I wrote on meta a good read.

Anonymous

yeah i did'nt...i'm bored now

Anonymous

Oct 18, 2016 17:45

maybe i'll just accept things as they are

Anonymous

and just do my job

Rubisco

The Periodic Table

Participants