The Periodic Table

orthocresol

15:01

"I fully agree with your analysis of the answer and the question. Nevertheless, I have downvoted this answer." Like, what?

Rubisco

@orthocresol He's an SE veteran. He's referencing the multitude of arguments against the dozen of feature requests on metas about making comments obligatory whenever you downvote. In the end, he concludes that we should just let it go, and stuff the way they are.

orthocresol

No, just the first bit.

Rubisco

He sees no value in repeating the old discussions about this again and again.

orthocresol

Oh, wait

Damn. He meant he was downvoting Jan's answer to the meta question.

Okay, okay, I get it already.

Rubisco

i.imgur.com/gKyQWac.webm

user228700

15:04

@Rubisco That seems like a great way to motivate beginners :/

orthocresol

I mean, if you read it as he downvoted my answer, and then moves on to talk about not caring about downvotes, that's just confusing.

user228700

@DHMO No, we weren't...

Rubisco

@Kaumudi Why the :/, then?

DHMO

43 mins ago, by orthocresol

The usual question that crops up is: is acetic acid or phenol more acidic?

Rubisco

If you're implying that you're not a beginner . . . heh, man. We're all beginners.

user228700

15:05

I was being sarcastic :-P I meant that it actually doesn't motivate beginners.

user228700

And what the hell man, I think it's clear that I'm a beginner. Have u seen the kind of questions I ask? XD

user228700

@DHMO Wasn't my question.

DHMO

@Kaumudi alright

user228700

If u're still interested in that:

Rubisco

@Rubisco I'm fed up of pseudo intellectuals. Are you comparing Questions and Answer votes to elections? Really? I've nothing to say. My last try....which one sounds better? "You are so ugly!" or "Hey Rubisco, I see that you've got some acne? Did you go to the dermatologist? You better take medicine coz these acne are making your face ugly. " As I said. I'm fed up of pseudo-intellectuals. Sigh. In an election we are meant to vote for the person whom we find most suitable. But on a Q/A site the aim is to better the quality of the Q/A by pointing out the mistakes of the user. — ZOZ 4 mins ago

user228700

15:08

4

Q: Why does having equivalent resonating structure give more stability?

If we take a phenolate ion ($\ce{C6H5O-}$) and an acetate ion ($\ce{CH3COO-}$) which one would be more stable? Although the Phenolate ion has more(4) resonating structure compared to acetate ion(2), acetate is more stable because it has two equivalent resonating structure of same energy. My ques...

user228700

@DHMO

orthocresol

@Kaumudi chemistry.stackexchange.com/questions/6155/… This answer is what I was talking about.

DHMO

@Kaumudi thanks

orthocresol

Quality > quantity here.

user228700

@orthocresol Yeah, I understand, thanks :-) @DHMO: U're welcome.

orthocresol

15:11

@Rubisco I think sometimes you have to phrase what you say carefully.

Rubisco

@orthocresol Me?

He SAID IT. Pointing at ZOZ, sobbing

orthocresol

No, no.

I'll come back in a while

Rubisco

@orthocresol O.O

Well, I double-checked what I wrote.

It was blunt, but it wasn't rude.

But calling me a 'pseudo-intellectual' prolly deserves at least one non-constructive flag.

orthocresol

No, no. I think he misinterpreted what you wrote. That's all.

Not your fault

Rubisco

Eh, not his fault either

orthocresol

15:15

I mean, it's good if people do leave a comment. Just like how it's good if we edit stuff

Rubisco

Language barrier causes people with some difficulty in the communication medium to become a bit more aggressive and defensive.

orthocresol

But to expect it is different

Rubisco

I say that by experience.

orthocresol

Or to... make it compulsory

Rubisco

@orthocresol Precisely.

Well, whatever I say here will be no different from what's already there on meta.SO and meta.SE.

It's all over the place.

We even had something on our own meta.

orthocresol

15:17

I think he got upset because you and Klaus sound (to him) like you're saying, "you should not leave a comment".

Yeah, it's been discussed to death

Rubisco

I have a meta post that Jonsca has commented under and said 'Covered pretty well!' about this very issue on meta.Chem.

It's weird why I remember it like that, but it's gotta be there somewhere.

I don't feel like searching anything right now.

user228700

@orthocresol: Oh shit, I was supposed to ask u about Bent's rule!

user228700

Are u busy now?

Rubisco

@Kaumudi There are a couple of good posts on chem with a couple of good links in each about Bent's rule.

user228700

(I read that post and there were a coupla things I didn't understand)

user228700

15:22

@Rubisco Ik, but there are some points I didn't understand even after reading the answer like 10 times :/

Rubisco

Usually, you can ask any question you want. People might come and answer it whenever they get the time.

@Kaumudi Like?

user228700

@Rubisco I'd actually asked like 12 hours ago.

Rubisco

@Kaumudi Linky

user228700

13 hours ago, by Kaumudi

user228700

13 hours ago, by Kaumudi

Rubisco

15:26

Thank you for such a nostalgic two minutes.

Now, what's the source of confusion?

user228700

Check comments 2 and 3. One second, they were saying that the s character would be more for the bond b/w the central atom and the electro positive and then, the next:

user228700

What the heck?

orthocresol

Comments are never really a good place to learn stuff.

user228700

@Rubisco U're...welcome? :-P

user228700

15:30

@orthocresol :-P Yes, alright, so that's wrong, then?

Rubisco

@Kaumudi Oh well, we're missing context I guess

The only thing you should know is that electronegativity affects s electrons more than p electrons.

user228700

@Rubisco OK..?

Rubisco

@Kaumudi Compare with the VSEPR equivalent that said 'lone pairs take up more space'.

user228700

OK..?

orthocresol

s-character goes around the more electropositive atom

Or to be precise

the bond to the more electropositive atom has greater s-character

Rubisco

15:33

If it has greater s-character, what will the bond angle deviations be?

user228700

@orthocresol 'Cause...s orbitals are more effective at attracting electrons, yeah?

Rubisco

That's the thing we want to answer.

@orthocresol IKR, the word is so long you lose the science in the middle of typing it

user228700

Yeah, see, I'm still very confused about the whole s orbital p orbital thing and which one dominates in which situation :/

user228700

Is what I said correct?

user228700

1 min ago, by Kaumudi

@orthocresol 'Cause...s orbitals are more effective at attracting electrons, yeah?

orthocresol

15:35

I don't know the justification behind the rule.

I didn't learn it.

user228700

Ohh :/ I didn't understand the justification given in those answers completely, 'cause the comments were so confusing.

Rubisco

@ZOZ Oh well, we're good then. What me and Klaus were saying wasn't that we shouldn't explain our downvotes. Just that we're not expected to. Explaining downvotes is a good thing, but if you don't do it, you won't become the villain. That's our point, and that's the point echoed in that question and the numerous duplicates linked to it. — Rubisco 18 secs ago

Heh, what a quick change of heart.

user228700

I think I'm correct in stating that s-orbitals do a better job of attracting the electrons.

Rubisco

Happy ending I guess

user228700

They're more electronegative, since they're closer to the nucleus.

DHMO

15:38

@Kaumudi I second that.

@Kaumudi not sure if electronegative is used that way

Rubisco

@Kaumudi Except for the fact that orbitals don't attract electrons last I checked.

user228700

@DHMO I've seen it used like that in some places...

Rubisco

They're not even real. They're just functions.

DHMO

@Rubisco if the potential energy is lowered, isn't that the same as attracting?

orthocresol

No.

Rubisco

15:39

No.

pentavalentcarbon

No.

DHMO

No.

user228700

Pretty sure no :-P

user228700

@Rubisco OK, I worded that wrongly.

DHMO

How does a positive particle attract a negative particle, in terms of quantum field theory?

user228700

15:40

I meant that they hold the electrons more effectively. Now please don't beat me with the "They're just functions" thing again 🙏

orthocresol

@Kaumudi Did you see this? chemistry.stackexchange.com/a/18544/16683

DHMO

Doesn't the positive particle attract the negative particle by lowering its potential energy?

orthocresol

The very last part talks about it.

The orbital isn't a particle.

DHMO

@orthocresol alright

user228700

^That.

user228700

15:44

The axial p-orbital has the lowest s character?

user228700

Where did this come from?

DHMO

@Loong maybe you might want to use the 2013 version to add an answer to my question?

2

Q: What does the prime symbol mean in organic nomenclature (e.g 2')?

I encountered the following compound (courtesy Wikipedia): $\hspace{6cm}$ Its systematic IUPAC name is: 4,4',5,5',6,6'-hexahydroxy-2,2'-biphenyldicarboxylic acid What do the prime symbols in the locants 4', 5', 6', and 2' signify?

organic-chemistry nomenclature

orthocresol

@Kaumudi The equatorial bonds are sp2 bonds, right?

So those have 33% s-character.

And p-orbitals obviously have 0% s-character.

DHMO

bye

user228700

@orthocresol Hang on, but I thought...

user228700

15:47

OK, I just thought wrong, I guess :/

user228700

@DHMO: Bubye.

orthocresol

You thought there are d-orbitals involved?

Well, don't worry about the specific case of $\ce{PCl4F}$ first. Just focus on the general idea.

user228700

No, wait, I don't think I thought wrong...I thought they were all the same kind of hybridized orbitals? So shouldn't all of them have the same s and p character?

orthocresol

Hybridisation picture is incorrect here.

It fails quite spectacularly for hypervalent compounds, in general.

Rubisco

in SO Close Vote Reviewers on Stack Overflow Chat, 23 hours ago, by Louis

I love explaining the intricacies of flagging on SO. "You should use the "cat" flag when you see a cat. Except when the cat is wearing sunglasses, then you have to use the "walrus" flag. No, not because it is a walrus. That's just what we do: we classify a cat with sunglasses as a walrus."

user228700

15:52

I meant to ask about this the other day... hypervalent compounds?

Rubisco

@Kaumudi Compounds you guys call 'exceptions to octet'.

orthocresol

Anything with more than an octet around the central atom.

Rubisco

By expanding their d orbitals or whatever, which is wrong.

user228700

Ohh, right.

user228700

So which picture is correct?

Rubisco

15:54

Funny thing is, even this inaccurate and incorrect picture of hybridization isn't taught in Iran.

We're basically taught 1950 chemistry.

And not even the fun parts.

orthocresol

@Kaumudi MOT explains it much better.

But if you're taught to use hybridisation, just use it for the time being.

user228700

Just use MO for the time being?

orthocresol

use hybridisation.

Rubisco

-1

Q: How to ascertain with the help of Moelular orbital diagram, the HOMO of cyanide ion has greater contribution from carbon

I am posting this MO diagram of Cyanide ion. Its HOMO is 3sigma orbital. Since we know cyanide ion attack from carbon side as its HOMO has greater contribution from carbon. But How do we know this fact with the help of MO diagram . To me it appears nitrogen is more closer to 3 sigma orbital,so ...

organic-chemistry inorganic-chemistry bond molecular-orbital-theory

This question isn't unclear.

chemistry.stackexchange.com/review/close/44146

Please review Ortho

Oh heck, ye reviewed already.

@ringo why did you VTC that? ʕ ⊃･ ◡ ･ ʔ⊃︵┻━┻

user228700

@orthocresol But then I won't be able to use Bent's rule ugh. We're throwing "equivalent hybrid orbitals" out the window if we use it with hybridization.

user228700

16:07

(Sorry, got caught up. They're having a chat session at The h Bar!).

orthocresol

It can work together with hybridisation

Rubisco

@Kaumudi And throwing things out the window is a metaphor for?

orthocresol

But only in certain contexts

i.e. traditional octet molecules.

Rubisco

@Kaumudi I like physics, but only as much as my exams want me to.

user228700

@Rubisco I'm sorry, I don't understand what u mean...

user228700

16:08

@Rubisco I feel this way about Chemistry :-P

user228700

@orthocresol How..?

Rubisco

@Kaumudi You have that JITEE or whatever exam, right?

We have this Konkur we have to deal with.

orthocresol

@Kaumudi CH2Cl2.

Rubisco

It's hopelessly ridiculous.

user228700

It's IITJEE. Okay...Hang on, aren't u like done with college and all?

Rubisco

16:09

@Kaumudi Well, that's as accurate as I can get about things I don't care about.

@Kaumudi No, I'm in the final year.

orthocresol

Oh, wait, I see what you mean.

user228700

@orthocresol U do? Phew.

orthocresol

Yes. You have to discard the notion that in sp3 hybridisation, all sp3 orbitals are equivalent.

That is not true.

user228700

Wait, that's not true?! WHYYYYYY?!

user228700

😭

orthocresol

16:11

You're the one who brought it up.

Rubisco

@Kaumudi I hate these smileys. I have to zoom in to 500 % to see them well.

user228700

:-P Yeah, but I was hoping u'd have a solution...

user228700

@Rubisco Sorry? :-P I'm on my mobile...

user228700

OK then, I'll go back to my hole and deal with the consequences of being taught theory upon theory that have since been discarded to a certain extent.

user228700

Thanks a LOT, guys! :-)

orthocresol

16:15

@Kaumudi I guess what you could say is that they are nearly equivalent.

The four sp3 hybrids are nearly equivalent, but they are not entirely so. Some have a tiny bit more s and some have a tiny bit more p.

That is much closer to the truth.

And which ones have more s and which ones have more p are determined by Bent's rule.

user228700

Yeah, alright, this makes sense :-)

user228700

Again, thanks for my being my teachers! (I don't have anybody apart from all of u wonderful people here :/)

Rubisco

I'm not really wonderful. I mean, RuBisCO's structure has been identified.

ringo

@Rubisco It was much less clear when I voted. It looks a lot better now

Rubisco

@ringo Retract your vote then please.

user228700

16:19

:-P IDC. As long as whatever the hell RuBisCO is, is willing to help me :-D

Rubisco

I don't wanna go and ask people to be more careful with voting as unclear on meta.

I'm not your baby-sitter.

I might be in four hours, but that's besides the point.

orthocresol

Tbh, it's still unclear.

"To me it appears nitrogen is closer to 3 sigma orbital,"

This is talking about in terms of energy.

Rubisco

@orthocresol Splitting hairs are we?

The main question is clear.

orthocresol

It's still unclear.

Whether it's unclear enough to vtc is another matter.

Hence my -1.

!!flip/hairs

Chemobot

(╯°ਊ°)╯︵ɥɐᴉɹs

ringo

16:28

@Rubisco How am I to help it that an unclear post was edited to be more clear after I voted?

Rubisco

@ringo You can retract your close vote.

orthocresol

Just pay attention to the main page and retract the CV.

That's easier said than done sometimes, but yeah.

ringo

I already have.

Rubisco

Let's celebrate.

orthocresol

Meh. I'll edit it.

Rubisco

16:30

If we celebrate before the election ends, we'll be celebrating more.

And we'll celebrate no matter who wins, so let's just do it.

orthocresol

OK, here we go. This is much better. Those pictures of the MOs were not needed.

Todd Minehardt

@Rubisco - my feelings got hurt once when i was downvoted. can you provide therapy? :)

Rubisco

@ToddMinehardt I can massage your brain

I can't guarantee that you'll keep your vision though.

Human brain is too soft.

Todd Minehardt

@Rubisco I just had to pop by to see if any of that meta silliness was gonna make it into the room :)

Rubisco

One can only hope

Speaking of pinging Jan, do y'all remember when I mass pinged him once?

That was so much fun, so much fun.

Anonymous

16:49

Well Hi @Rubisco :-P Yeah we are back to square 1.

Rubisco

Hey @ZOZ, welcome to chat

I can't be sure if you were here before, but whatever.

See, there are a few strong arguments against making downvote comments mandatory.

Lemme find a post

Anonymous

Well we had a long chat once upon a time =)

Anonymous

Sure

Anonymous

Maybe we can conduct a vote session for all the members of Chem SE in meta

Rubisco

10

A: Reasoning or commenting before downvoting

This is literally the most asked question on the meta history of SE. Almost every per site meta gets it and the mother meta – meta.SE – well. Just as I said in my comment: Votes are meant to be anonymized and you shouldn't be to find out who voted how on what. People would post useless comment...

Anonymous

16:53

That one problem of bypassing the system by bogus comments can definitely be solved. The bogus comment can be reported to the moderator who should be given the power of nullifying the downvote

Rubisco

@ZOZ Did you give my post a read?

And my first comment below the question.

Anonymous

Yes I read it

Anonymous

See^

Rubisco

@ZOZ A thousand downvotes are given everyday. Less than 50 are commented on. How do you expect the moderators to catch up with the mess that the other 950 leave?

And a lot of downvotes are on obviously stupid questions.

Anonymous

No.We do not report all comments.We report only the down-voters who made stupid comments...that will amount to max 50 in a day.

Rubisco

16:55

I don't ever want to be made to explain my downvote when I downvote a blatant homework dump with no cooperation from the OP's side even after I comment and notify them of the policy.

@ZOZ You just guesstimate that

And that's only the case in a site like Chem.

SO will get million of unnecessary comments.

Anonymous

Yes...can you prove my guess wrong? Bigger sites have more moderators to handle the task!

Rubisco

@ZOZ SO has only 17 moderators.

@ZOZ I can't. But you're the one making a proposition. You should prove it first.

Look at this excuse of a question

-3

Q: Determining equilibrium concentration

Using the value of Kc you experimentally found determine the concentration of SCN- at equilibrium if 150 mL of 0.24 M Fe3+ is added to 50mL of SCN- solution and the equilibrium concentration of FeSCN2+ is 2.5x10-7 M Kc= 63.217

equilibrium concentration

Were each of the downvoters to add their reasoning, we'd at best have three redundant comments.

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