A chat about bypassing arbitration clauses

lyxal

Aug 20, 2024 12:18

~~finally SE doing something right (updating the mod agreement)~~

mousetail

Add a binding arbitration clause to the agreement

lyxal

require re-signing or demodding :p

Themoonisacheese

how will i ever sue SE if my wife dies in a SE-owned restaurant in the future if they do that?:(

The Empty String Photographer

Aug 20, 2024 12:36

@Themoonisacheese Create a shell company and sue them acting as the company? (You signed the contract but the company did not)

mousetail

The company must have damages against it, a new company can't sue anybody till someone damages it

Themoonisacheese

^

disney dropped that btw

i guess they're afraid of setting the precedent

The Empty String Photographer

@mousetail Employ the wife as CFO

mousetail

Can you employ a dead person?

Themoonisacheese

to law.SE!

The Empty String Photographer

Aug 20, 2024 12:40

You employed the wife earlier

mousetail

I don't think you could sue in any case for the death of someone who was already dead when you hired them

Themoonisacheese

could a company even sue for damages created by the death of an employee?

The Empty String Photographer

You employed the wife before they died

Themoonisacheese

yes but that would require foresight

The Empty String Photographer

@Themoonisacheese maybe if the employee was an important one

mousetail

Aug 20, 2024 12:41

@Themoonisacheese I don't see why not, if you can prove it hurt the company

The Empty String Photographer

Well there is no CFO anymore

Themoonisacheese

i mean yes if you're able to show damages you can sue for them but i find it wierd that i've never hear about this happening

mousetail

I guess most companies don't care about their employees that much

Themoonisacheese

this sounds like exactly the kind of things that would happen in the Land Of The Free

The Empty String Photographer

So I guess the company’s finances are now wrecked

(Not like they have any)

Themoonisacheese

Aug 20, 2024 12:42

@mousetail fair enough

The Empty String Photographer

Would Microsoft sue the restaurant if they killed Bill Gates? Quite likely.

Themoonisacheese

i mean

would they?

The Empty String Photographer

Bill Gates is quite an important person

mousetail

I don't think they would

Themoonisacheese

microsoft has quite clearly been able to do without him for decades at this point

mousetail

Aug 20, 2024 12:45

Bill Gates family is plenty equipped to do that themselves

Microsoft as a company wouldn't really be effected as ^^

The Empty String Photographer

How about CFO of Microsoft?

mousetail

I don't think they would

Themoonisacheese

is the CFO of MS so important there that them leaving (even just resigning) would create such damages?

mousetail

Anyone important enough at MS is wealthy enough to take care of those things themselves

Themoonisacheese

having a bus factor of 1 on your CFO is insane

The Empty String Photographer

Aug 20, 2024 12:46

Who is gonna manage the company’s finance now?

Themoonisacheese

chatGPT, clearly

The Empty String Photographer

…

No

mousetail

I assume they have plenty of financial experts ready to jump at the oppertunity

Themoonisacheese

more seriously, a new one who has experience managing a gigantic finance department

for the same reason that if the current CFO resigns effective immediately, MS isn't going to lose billions

mousetail

They have entire detailed protocols written in advance for what to do if someone important dies/goes missing/resigns/goes rogue/etc.

The Empty String Photographer

Aug 20, 2024 12:52

You won’t if you’re just a tiny company with you as CEO and your wife as CFO

*probably

Themoonisacheese

huh

so apparently

key person insurance exists and is a thing

Key person insurance

Key person insurance, also called keyman insurance, is an important form of business insurance. There is no legal definition of "key person insurance". In general, it can be described as an insurance policy taken out by a business to compensate that business for financial losses that would arise from the death or extended incapacity of an important member of the business. To put it simply, key person insurance is a standard life insurance or trauma insurance policy that is used for business succession or business protection purposes. The policy's term does not extend beyond the period of the key...

(but also if your bus factor is such that this is useful to your company you should really just spend that money on increasing the bus factor in the first place)

The Empty String Photographer

@Themoonisacheese but the whole point of making that company is so that you can sue SE

Themoonisacheese

still would have to show damages

The Empty String Photographer

Well you lost your employee with bus factor 1

Themoonisacheese

yes, but the shell company that does nothing will not be able to show that they lost money because of that

not a significant amount anyway

what i got from the disney thing was that the husband would still be allowed to sue as her estate for wrongful death, but not as himself for pain and suffering

provided that a court agreed that the arbitration clause was enforceable to begin with of course

The Empty String Photographer

Aug 20, 2024 13:08

Well, all your money is in the company (you use the company’s credit/debit/charge card) and your wife is “responsible” for the management of the finances (just making sure nobody fraudulently takes the money away). If your wife dies then you “can’t” monitor the bank account for fraud as you are not the CFO.

And that would be “very bad”

Themoonisacheese

i mean sure

The Empty String Photographer

They’ve probably already thought of that though…

Themoonisacheese

but i'm pretty sure attempting this is both tax fraud and will get you laughed out of a court room

The Empty String Photographer

Tax fraud?

Themoonisacheese

companies typically don't require buying groceries, for example

The Empty String Photographer

Aug 20, 2024 13:10

I thought [shell] companies were a legal way of reducing tax

Themoonisacheese

i mean, they are, but the cost of doing so in a way that's not tax fraud makes this only viable if you own billions

The Empty String Photographer

@Themoonisacheese what about “restocking the cafeteria in the office”?

Themoonisacheese

lying about the purpose of company expenses is also tax fraud i'm pretty sure

mousetail

@TheEmptyStringPhotographer There are really strict rules about how much you are allowed to spend on cafeteria food for example. My company provides lunch, it's "free" but we need to pay tax over it since it goes over the tax-free limit

The Empty String Photographer

The company is fine paying tax though

Themoonisacheese

Aug 20, 2024 13:17

yes, but companies don't get to buy everything for their employees

because then the companies can just only pay no tax (since their profits are 0, they're spending all the money they get) -> tax fraud

they could pay salaries to the emplyees but then you're paying double tax (since in this scenario the income for the companies is your paycheeck after taxes)

and tbh if you're doing this hypothetical to be able to get compensation for a loved one's death, life insurance already exists

lyxal

Are we talking about tax evasion? Good stuff that

The Empty String Photographer

@Themoonisacheese yeah I knoe

*know

but you could get some extra money by doing that as well

Themoonisacheese

@lyxal taxfraud.SE when

The Empty String Photographer

@Themoonisacheese The company is fine paying taxes

the company

will give the money

if the relevant tax agency asks for it

Themoonisacheese

@TheEmptyStringPhotographer

oops mb

you told someone "welcome on chat.se" on puzzling :)

lyxal

Aug 20, 2024 13:32

@Themoonisacheese you know for sure I'd be running to be mod on that site

Themoonisacheese

first of all, not how that works at all but sure, let's say that the CFO has perfect knowledge of corporate tax law.
there are many things a company can't buy for its employees, not because it doesn't pay tax on it, but because it can't pay tax on it

mousetail

You'd end up on so many watch lists the various tax agency's agents would cause a traffic jam

Themoonisacheese

ultimately the reality is the same thing that happens to world citizens/"i am not driving i am traveling" types

lyxal

can't catch me for fraud if you can't catch me

Themoonisacheese

the government, who has a monopoly on violence, sees you do things it disagrees with and will drag you to court. the law is decided by the government in the first place, and any "clever" schemes you can think of have already been exploited by people before you, and if they haven't, any judge will see right through your scheme and you're going to prison

especially with tax law, in any given country, the amount of laws is so large and their scope so vague that any citizen could be construed to be committing tax fraud at any given point in time

The Nineteenth Byte

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