... 3 ... 2 ... 1 ... 0 Thank you very much.

(Insert just before the previous line: 20 hours later...)

@IsaacMoses yasher koach! Where did you share it?

@MonicaCellio Berucha tihyi. My normal two places - FB and reddit

@IsaacMoses ah, reddit. I must pay more attention there.

@MonicaCellio It seemed a good forum in which to showcase zombie content

@IsaacMoses yes, now that you point it out it makes perfect sense. Well-done!

@MonicaCellio Well-done were the answers to that question! :)

@IsaacMoses there are some real gems there.

judaism.stackexchange.com/q/19129 has always struck me as soapboxing disguised as a question.

@msh210 If it was intended that way, it was quite successful at making me pay more attention.

@msh210 Meh.

@DoubleAA Can you point me in the direction of that Mordechai?

Can someone with the available privilege please merge swear-oath into nedarim-vows ?

@HodofHod I don't think they should be. Different things.

Perhaps both can be merged into a more general formulation.

@DoubleAA shevuot is already synonymized

@HodofHod Moed 574 compare with Bavli Shabbat 15b

@HodofHod I can change that :)

@DoubleAA Ok. I agree that it should be generalized.

@HodofHod @DoubleAA perhaps nedarim-shevuot?

@DoubleAA Not really. I mean, 'promise' and 'vow' are usually used as translations of 'neder'/'nadar', and 'oath' and 'swear' of 'sh'vua'/'nishba', but I see no good reason for that distinction: the English words don't lie on opposite sides of the halachic demarcation AFAIK.

@msh210 I agree. Also, is someone interested in finding questions related to any particular neder question going to also be interested in shevua' questions? I think so. If they're not aware of the halachic distinction, then definitely. If they are, the concepts are still close enough that if you're interested in questions about one, you're probably interested in questions about the other.

@msh210 With words like "vows," "promises," and "oaths" as synonyms?

@IsaacMoses Yes, precisely. They already are (of one or the other of the existent tags).

@msh210 Sounds good to me.

@IsaacMoses Right, especially about those oblivious to the distinction, which is most people.

Done.

But I've now removed 'nedarim' from that list since it can mean the maseches. Now, someone typing 'nedarim' will be offered two options and if he doesn't choosebetween them then the software won't choose for him.

@msh210 Y"K

@msh210 thanks for making the changes. So what happens to nedarim-vows now if they meant that? (I think "vows" will be a pretty common entry point for this concept, especially from people who don't know the difference.)

... This reads like an invention in the purim-torah-in-jest department (although the cognate here, unlike the chronology, is real)

@MonicaCellio Sorry. I don't understand your question. Specifically, I don't know what you mean by "they meant that" (who meant what?), by "now" (now that...?), or by "what happens" (what happens under what circumstances?).

... or should I just pop up in that chat room?

@IsaacMoses Definitely.

@IsaacMoses Well, yeah, or that. Something though: encourage (as you so often do) inclusion of motivation in a question. Especially here, where we have the XY problem: Ali wants to know whether we've been called mushlamim, and asks only what we've been called.

@msh210 Good point. I'll do that here on the question. Thanks.

@IsaacMoses Thank you.

@msh210 Done. Please let me know (or edit it) if you think it's too harsh.

@IsaacMoses I don't think so, at all. I've commented further there, q.v.

@SethJ, you may find the above interesting.

@msh210 Saw. Thanks.

@msh210, could you please s/your/you're/ in my comment? It's hurting my eyes, and it's too late for me to fix it.

@msh210 Thanks

@IsaacMoses Mine, too, but I don't edit comments, since no history is available: it's attributing to the commenter something he didn't say. Now that you've authorized it, though... you're welcome.

@msh210 I'm sorryl; that made more sense in my head than in writing apparently. It sounded like you were going to alias a bunch of things to a common nedarim-shevuot tag but decided not to include nedarim-vows. Is that right? If so, I'm wondering how someone who types "vows" into the tags list gets to nedarim-shevuot. Maybe I misunderstood?

@IsaacMoses oh my. So he's really fishing for proof-texting "muslim" in torah? I wish he had just said so...

@MonicaCellio I included nedarim-vows, but not nedarim. (Hence my confusion. :-))

@IsaacMoses thank you!

@MonicaCellio Yup. Would have been a legitimate question (albeit disappointing to the asker) if phrased as such.

@msh210 oh! Ok, all is fine. :-)

@IsaacMoses indeed. I suspect he thought we wouldn't be open to it, but we would have been. (Not that we would have helped him much, as you say...)

@MonicaCellio Happy to do it.

@MonicaCellio Or he might have thought that we wouldn't own up to it if we were asked straight-out, but that if he came at it indirectly, someone would accidentally spill the beans.

@IsaacMoses Proving a negative is hard, but in this case he could check a concordance if he doesn't believe a "no" from us. (Of course, he could do that to start too.)

@MonicaCellio Or Google. Or ask as he did and just accept it when he gets the answer "Children of Israel or Hebrews"

... or ask on Islam or Biblical Hermeneutics instead if he doesn't trust this community to say all we know.

@IsaacMoses I didn't actually check to see if he tried Islam first. He didn't ask on BH. (Or if he did, he asked and it was deleted in a span of less than a day, but that's unlikely. BH isn't a deleting crowd.)

@MonicaCellio He asked in Islam's chat and referred to the question here, so presumably, he didn't ask on Islam

@IsaacMoses makes sense.

@IsaacMoses Ali, the one who asked that question, found that the torah has a word, "Mushalm", and he hypothesis that this means Muslim, because they both look alike, so I suspect that this is one of the resons behind the question

I see you read the Islam transcript, so you probably already know

@AlUmmat I think that was a Christian Bible word he found, but in any case, if that's what's motivating the question and what he wants to know about, that's what the question should say

@IsaacMoses agreed

@AlUmmat For the record, the root Sh-L-M is indeed all over Jewish Biblical and Rabbinic literature in various conjugations, meaning things like "peace" or "whole" in both Hebrew and Aramaic. I can't think of anything particularly like "Mu-shalom" as a title, and I can't think of any use of this root in naming the Israelites.

@IsaacMoses I do not believe He mistrusts this community, actually He has said that He likes that there are many people here who know their stuff/knowledgeable. He called it "Sharp". In Islam we know them as Bani Isra'eel, or Children of Israel

... It's used in the name of the Biblical town of Shalem, which may have been the same location as what was later called "Yerushalayim," (Jerusalem) which also uses this root.

@AlUmmat That's essentially the same as the term used most frequently in the Torah

@IsaacMoses I am aware of that, yes. We also believe that all previous prophet's brought the message of Islam, and that their followers were Muslim, so this may also be another reason behind the question

but I am sure it was not asked right out like that for fear of causing trouble

@IsaacMoses You are most welcome to come to the Islam chatroom to discuss, ask questions and clarification, everyone is welcome .

@AlUmmat Well, asking something like "According to Islam, Moshe and his followers were actually Muslims. Is there a word in the Torah that backs this up?" wouldn't be terribly appreciated, since it would sound like it's mainly off-topic teaching. (Though, phrased carefully, it could possibly be accepted as a fine on-topic question with an outside motivation.)

... However, "I've heard that there's a word in the Torah to describe Moshe and his followers that sounds like 'Mushalom." Is this true? If not, what were they called?" would, as I've indicated above, be fine.

@AlUmmat Thanks very much. Same here. :)

:)

@MonicaCellio Ohhh! I still didn't get it, even after reading the chat transcript!

Duh!

@MonicaCellio I would have vociferously objected that it was off-topic, FYI.

@IsaacMoses, see above.

@SethJ It could have been phrased in an on-topic way, I think.

@SethJ I think @IsaacMoses's formulation (just before your comment) would have worked.

@MonicaCellio @IsaacMoses, that formulation would still not satisfy me. I don't think our purpose here is to justify (or debunk) other religions' assumptions about our traditions.

@SethJ In that case, it would be about a rumor about our words, not an assumption about our traditions

@SethJ Compare judaism.stackexchange.com/q/8175/2

@IsaacMoses More like conspiracy theory. That rumor has been around a while, and it is used often to "prove" that we've covered up the belief that @AlUmmat mentioned. Essentially that we've scrubbed the revealed Word of G-d to hide the fact that our ancestors were Muslim and that we've deviated. Or something.

@IsaacMoses Note my comments there. Also, I did not up(or, to be honest, down)vote the question.

@IsaacMoses I also don't really see it as a true "I'm trying to find out if my religion is correct about you guys" question, which I think Ali's question is doing.

@SethJ I hadn't heard that rumor/claim/whatever before today.

Remember Maxood, too? He's tried a bit of that before. I've usually tried to keep him on topic or else objected when he's crossed a line with which I wasn't comfortable. Same with Ali. I generally try to help him get to an on-topic point (as I did with this question).

@SethJ no, Most Muslims try to ask questions to make people, not just Jews, think. It has nothing to do about "I'm trying to find out if my religion is correct about you guys". In other words Questions are formed to do Da'wah

@SethJ I appreciate your efforts.

@AlUmmat I understand that. I was just pointing out that it seems that that is the goal here.

@SethJ ok, i see

@MonicaCellio There's some wacko stuff on YouTube.

@AlUmmat correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't da'wah objectively the same thing as proselytizing?

@yoel No, The objective of Da'wah is to deliver clearly the message (of Islam), the rest is between that person and God. The objective of Da'wah is not to attempt or convert anyone

a simple, but accurate translation for the word is "to invite" or "invitation"

@AlUmmat Please don't attempt to deliver the message of Islam or invite people to consider it on Mi Yodeya.

@IsaacMoses don't worry, I won't, just to let you know I am not really like that, going to another religion room and or site and doing such

I do not like looking for trouble I try to be cautious

@AlUmmat No problem. And I appreciate the insight about how Muslims value asking questions. It's good for us to all be able to converse rationally; just in the context of Mi Yodeya, the objective of questions has to be to ask for information about Judaism, and the objective of answers has to be to provide same.

@IsaacMoses Same with Islam.SE, and probably all SE sites

@AlUmmat Absolutely.

Congratulations to @MonicaCellio, our Chai-th user with 10k rep!

@DoubleAA ooh, chai! Thanks!

(gotta run so I can get to Kosher Mart in time; back later)