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1:11 AM
Out of curiosity, what constitutes worship for Muslims? Also, is there a difference between worship and prayer for Muslims?
 
@El'endiaStarman Allah/God has prescribed different forms of worship, for example obeying Allah is worship, and praying/salat is worship. We cannot worship Allah/God in ways that He has not prescribed. The difference between Prayer and worship is prayer falls under worship, but the forms under worship is a part of a whole, anything that is done out of the sincerity of God can be considered Worship. Hope I explained it well Insha'Allah, do you understand?
 
I think you explained it well enough. What does music fall under?
 
@El'endiaStarman It depends on the Music, there are different views on Music, but according to the Hadith falls under Haram
unlawful
@El'endiaStarman see this
17
A: Music in Islam?

ashes999This is an issue on which scholars have differed. The vast majority of scholars throughout time claim that music is haraam, and cite the references in the other answers. Islam QA says: The four Imams, their followers and the vast majority of earlier Muslim scholars are of the view that mus...

 
@AlUmmat Ooh, thanks.
Interesting. Pretty much every Christian denomination uses music as some form of worship, and music as worship in Judaism goes back a long way.
 
@El'endiaStarman I was aware of Music in Christianity, but not Judaism , something new :)
 
1:25 AM
@AlUmmat Many, if not most, of the Psalms are also songs, and you can find Hebrew worship songs on YouTube. I've actually been listening to one of those for the past 40ish minutes.
 
David was traditionally known as a musician of great renown.
there's even a hadith about it, although i believe it refers only to his voice (singing) rather than playing any instruments.
 
@goldPseudo Aye, that too. Also, there's a 24-7 worship/prayer organization that uses as part of their inspiration the fact that David hired 400 musicians to worship Yahweh day and night without ceasing.
 
one can say, with caution, that the Quran is similar but not Music, and hence we do not want anything to replace the love of the Quran, meaning Music has psychological affects, and is very addictive, and so can make one forget Allah really fast, and we do not want that
 
@AlUmmat See, that's really interesting to me because I usually use music as a way to draw closer to God. There have even been a few times where a secular song has prompted me into a mindstate of worship.
 
1:34 AM
@El'endiaStarman that is Good Alhamdulillah, one must understand that Music and Drawing/paintings/pictures are two of the most disputed things, so I am cautious when answering questions on these
 
anasheed are fairly common in Islam; they're basically sung poems, but with zero instrumental accompaniment.
(or accompanied by the duff which is a small drum that's typically considered an exception to the "no instruments" ruling)
 
@AlUmmat I've known for several years that drawings/paintings/pictures are mostly not allowed. It has something to do with not making an image of an image of Allah, right?
 
yes, anasheed, also just to mention, it started out innocently, but those who sing the anasheed is now like rock stars and stuff, and most of the Anasheed have become like rock and role
@El'endiaStarman I think more of imitating the creation of Allah and changing it if I am not mistaken
 
@AlUmmat Ah, that makes more sense.
 
as for the image of Allah, we believe that nothing is like Him
meaning we cannot comprehend what He looks like
and we cannot apply anything from His creation to Him
 
1:43 AM
Aside from Jesus Himself (who certainly wasn't white and blue-eyed), Christians believe much the same thing, except we are more apt to say that God is like a lion, or a lamb, or a young boy, or a warrior king, or fire, or a storm, or etc... - No one thing can describe Him completely, but we will definitely use analogies for whichever attribute we're describing.
 
@El'endiaStarman I see
 
Hmm. What about literature? Fictional stories?
 
@El'endiaStarman I haven't heard anything against fictional stories, as long as it says it is fictional
there are children Books to teach Islam
but of course they are for children
but I must admit they sometimes are quite fun to read :)
 
1:58 AM
related:
13
Q: Spreading fantasy stories about Prophets: what is the rule?

MohayeminSince childhood, I had been hearing many fantasy stories about prophets and other Islamic historical persons. Some examples: Adam (A) was 60 feet cubit tall (Its possible, but is there any evidence by Quran/Hadis reference)? Musa (A) fought an enemy who was extremely tall (say 20 times than a n...

 
@goldPseudo Sweet. Thanks! [starts reading answers]
 
@El'endiaStarman it's more about spreading unverifiable stories (e.g. folklore) than about intentional fiction, but it's a strong parallel.
 
@goldPseudo Man...I wish more people followed the "don't share it if you don't know if it's true" rule...
 
2:15 AM
that's pretty much why the hadith sciences were invented. people were transmitting ahadith willy-nilly and it was getting extremely difficult to tell which ones were true and which ones were fabricated.
 
it was necessary to preserve Islam, a Major science is known as Al jarhu/Ajar wa Ata'deel
 
for the sake of a ridiculous parallel, imagine today trying to decide which gospel accounts to canonize, using only the internet, in this modern age of rampant cut-and-paste, arbitrary textual changes, and pseudo-anonymity.
 
[wince] Ouch. Islam has gone for more than a millennia without canonizing a set of ahadith?
 
well, most of the scholarship in the hadith sciences took place a few generations after the prophet.
but none of them are what you would call "canonized". there's still a lot of scholarship that goes into deciding what is or is not authentic.
but at least detailed chains of narration of who-told-who-told-who are recorded.
(Sunnis do consider the hadith books of Bukhari and Muslim to be as authentic as possible)
in Islam, the only thing that's actually considered full canon would be the Qur'an itself.
(and that's just for the written text; there's still a handful of different ways it can be read, thanks in part to lack of vowels)
 
 
2 hours later…
Ali
4:48 AM
assalamalaikum
 
wa 'alaykum assalaam
 
Ali
Bukhari Muslim can be seen as canonical?
 
depends on your definition of canonical.
 
Ali
@El'endiaStarman do you have any cannonical book af sayings of Jesus alone ?
 
there are no such canonized. just the four gospels.
even a token amount of research would tell you that much.
you'd need to be looking in the apocrypha for such. but anything you find therefrom would be of questionable authenticity.
 
 
10 hours later…
Ali
2:38 PM
assalamaikum @AlUmmat
Hi @Caleb
 
@Ali Wa Alaikum salam
 
Ali
@Caleb did you see the question on Judaism.SE on blasphemy to be judged by pagan courts?
1
Q: Do jews find it blasphemy to be judged by religious laws of the pagan country they live in

AliDoes being judged by non judaic religious law in a non judaic , pagan country considered to fall into the category of Shituff (Associating partners with God) . As jews belive that only God has the power to frame Laws and accepting or participating in the law system of pagan religious laws is like...

 
Salam
@AlU
How are you doing brothers?
@AlUmmat Do you know anything about Talaq?
 
@Noah Very good Alhamdulillah
@Noah not much really, I haven't studied deeply into marriage and divorce
 
Okay. I posted a question about the different types of divorce.
 
2:49 PM
@Noah I saw it
 
I am confused as to how many types of divorce are out there.
 
 
1 hour later…
4:01 PM
سلام
@AlUmmat, today I met a scholar and asked some questions from him
 
@owari Wa Alaikum salam. Masha'Allah, please share :)
 
1. about Imam Ali peace be upon him just born prostrating to Allah in Ka3bah
his explanation was around Makrouh, I already knew that but anyway I ignored it in explanation of that issue
Makrouh (discourage) in worshiping is not like Makrouh in other states
his explanation was around Makrouh, I already knew that but anyway I ignored it in explanation of that issue
Makrouh in worshiping means the worth of the worship being reduced, but anyway stil l worshiping is better than nothing
it is discourage to do that of course but doesn't mean that stop worshiping such is prefered
 
I see
 
if we can equally do the Makrouh and don't then we are expected to not doing that, but Imam when was born the idols were all around, so although it was better if there was no idol at all but his prostration was also better than not prostrating
Still a فضیلة for him
 
I see
 
4:08 PM
2. In Fiqh of Shia we have two things, first praying in the graveyards are Makrouh (again not forbidden and even good if there is no other place to pray therein), but the shrines (except for Baqi3) are not considered as grave yards, they are holy lands
do you think it is Makruh to say prayer at حجل الإسماعیل?
Of course not, although about 70 prophets are buried therein
in a holy land there might be several graves but that would not be called graveyard
Also a comment that also bring into consideration Baqi3 wherein 4 of Imams are buried
 
I see
 
We have similarly that praying Allah next to Imams is encouraged, now what if we do something Makrouh (as Makrouh in worshiping) but then something Mustahab with much a greater weight? The answer in Shia Fiqh is that such praying is far good even if it is in the grave yards
However, the worship only include worshiping of Allah not anyone else, they are Wasilah not the target
I do not expect you will approve these, but anyway, his answers to me and as far as I have read about the issues in Shia Fiqh they go well with other issues and Ahadeeth that we have, that is, no contradiction
 
@owari this is Good information, Alhamdulillah
 
Hope that Allah will guide me correct what I have said wrong here and there
 
Ameen
 
4:15 PM
@owari What exactly differentiates a holy land from a graveyard, if God has not explicitly designated it thus?
 
recall us in your prayer,
 
@owari oh and another question, how can a land be called holy if it was not mentioned as such in the Quran? I mean do the shia have a criteria on how to call a land holy?
 
@goldPseudo in a graveyard everyone (Muslim) may bury the body of his/her dead relative or friend or etc. but in the holy land people will be buried there only for Tabarrul, like in Mashhad in Iran or in Karbala people are not buried just like the other lands, they want to be buried there to be in much more blessings of Allah
@AlUmmat for example بین قبری و منبری روضة من ریاض الجنة is not in Qur'aan as far as I have read
We have several Ahadeeth that describes some specific lands as the holy lands, like the land between two mountains in Tus, or Karbala, ...
 
@owari Yes, but is there a criteria for the shia on how to call a land holy? especially if the land hasn't been called such in the Quran, and the sunnah
@owari I see
 
In Hadeeth we have been given te names of some of them, but I am not sure if there is a Hadeeth or not for that near every pious servant of Allah (the prophets and etc) the land is somewhat holy
 
4:22 PM
ok
 
In a Hadeeth I read someone was hesitating to go to some mosques, Imam thus asked him: don't you know there is no mosque build unless at least a droplet of blood of a prophet (or a believer) has been fallen there? This was to encourage the man to not hesitate going to some mosques
Also see for example in a Hadeeth holy Mosque of Kuffa is described for its worth near Allah, it was the place of living of Noah, Idris and etc ...
All these lands can be considered holy at least to some extent, not all the lands are the same in the view of Allah
 
ok
 
Also in another Hadeeth interpreting Qur'aan verses I saw بارکنا حوله around بیت المقدس is indeed Karbala and if I am right it is also the place that the Virgin Mary went when Qur'aan says مکانا شرقیا
everything is seemingly in Qur'aan but only encrypted
 
can you give example?
 
@AlUmmat example for what?
 
4:30 PM
@owari you said that the Quran is encrypted, I mean who can un-encrypt it?
sorry I didn't mean give me an example, my bad
 
the describers of Qur'aan are Ahlul Bayt, according to [3:7] (those firmly grounded in knowledge) and Hadeeth Thaqaleyn.
Shia belief though, you might not agree
 
@owari that verse can be made to mean many other knowledgeable people, are you sure it doesn't reference all knowledgeable?
 
That mosque is not really a mosque, like the belief of a hypocrite not being a true belief. The Hadeeth is talking about true mosques. Something to mention here, like Qur'aan verses have شأن نزول and cannot be used in every arbitrary situations, the Ahadeeth are said to have شأن صدور, that is, Imaam is specifically talking with a specific person regarding some specific situation, it might be or not generalizable to the other cases, but here that Imam himself addresses a general rule
it is understood that only true mosques must be implied. Even in a Hadeeth we have the WC of the mosques are place where the blood of the disbelievers have been fallen, though I am not sure if it was also a general rule, I guess not
@AlUmmat Yes they might include others as well, but any such people know some clarifications about Qur'aan not all of it obviously, but they are the only ones who know all about Qur'aan and thus are most reliable in interpretation of Qur'aan
 
@owari I see
 
5:28 PM
Hello
 
@Noah Hello/wa Alaikum salam ?
 
Does anyone know what happened to the Islamonline.net English version?
Salam Alikum @AlUmmat
 
@Noah Wa Alaikum salam
@Noah I do not
 
But you know the webiste?
I mean you have difinintly heard about it?
 
@Noah I believe I have hear do it, yes
I found many Islamic websites online, so I vaguely remember coming across this
 
5:32 PM
This one is I think owned by Sheikh Yusuf Al Qardawi
At least, that's what the wiki page says about it.
Back in the old days, it used to have a lot of content in English. But suddenly everything disappeared. I dont know what happened. It's Wikipedia page still says that it's a bilingual website, publishing stuff in Arabic and English.
 
@Noah I am not that familiar with that website, but I recall the name
 
Alright. I thought it was quite popular.
But you speak Arabic right?
 
@Noah yes
 
Then it's not a problem for you. They still have that version.
 
@Noah nope, Alhamdulillah
 
5:44 PM
I think I posted the link in the chat box.
If you havent seen it, you can do so by scrolling up a little bit.
 
yes i got the link :)
I see it
 
When did you become a mod?
 
@Noah a few days ago
 
And how?
 
@Noah I believe Aarthi enabled me with mod permissions, not sure how one becomes a mod
 
5:49 PM
Umm, who is Aarthi?
 
@Noah a stackexchange employee
Aarthi ♦, New York, United States
101 1 5
 
Okay. I think I remember her.
 
@AlUmmat In Beta, the SE team chooses the mods. After graduation, it's via elections.
 
So can I become a MOD?
 
@Noah They'd have to pick you, and considering that Islam already has 4 mods, I'd say that's pretty unlikely.
 
5:54 PM
Umm, I just want to hammer people down. Just for a few days. They can revoke my privileges after that.
:)
 
@Noah Ah...the mod hammer...
 
@El'endiaStarman I think you come from the same camp. Have you tried it?
 
@Noah El'endia is moderator on Christianity.SE
 
@AlUmmat But he still has a hammer.
 
@Noah I believe what is meant by the hammer is suspension
suspending someone
 
5:59 PM
We have kicked out a couple people on C.SE. Every time for particularly bad behavior.
 
@AlUmmat That's one. You can actually mow people down. Man, it's a great job. I wish I had that power.
 
Also, if I recall correctly, I think there was one person that we suspended for a week, and after that period, his participation on the site was much better.
Ironically, when you do have a powerful mod hammer in your hands, you're a lot more careful and picky about how and when you use it.
 
@El'endiaStarman Omm, so you are one of those officious guys.
:)
@El'endiaStarman Trust me man, you just give it to me and I will try it on you first :)
 
@Noah No thanks, I'd rather not have to face a Hammer Bros...
More seriously, I don't want a Hammer War either 'cause my fellow mods would then turn their hammers on you.
A bit more seriously, I once considered deleting Jeff Atwood's account from C.SE. Needless to say, I never actually followed through with it, but I was definitely curious.
Actually seriously.....no.
 
@El'endiaStarman Lol. That's funny.
You should have done so. He no longer works for SE anyway.
I thought of adding that little diamond shape into my profile, but the system seems to be much clever than I thought.
 
6:11 PM
@Noah Well, I considered it over a year ago, when he was still in charge.
 
Actually brought up this issue of diamond over at EL&U; everyone tried it- even the mods treid to help me, but none worked.
 
@Noah Yeah, the SE team is clever. :P
 
They do suck at certain things, specially when you pop over to the ServerFault chatroom and ask for live support. Everyone will start screaming at you, THIS PLACE IS NOT FOR LIVE SUPPORT.
 
6:26 PM
@Noah Well, that's your fault for going there and expecting live support... :P
 
Ali
@goldPseudo assalaamalaikum , Asking question does generate learning , even the Quran asks questions to promote learning and the Sahabas too. Hadith of Not asking many questions is about unncessary questions like say "how many times to do hajj"
 
@Ali depends on the question.
 
Ali
Ya even questions like what is the birth date of "Moses" or how tall Adam was!
Can i ask this question?
 
and often the point of questions is to generate wisdom rather than knowledge.
 
Ali
on the hadith
?
 
6:36 PM
@goldPseudo What's the difference?
 
Ali
Its like Socratic questioning method or inquiry based learning in pedagogy
 
@Noah a good rhetorical question is less about the actual answer as prompting the questionee to think about the answer.
 
Ali
-1
Q: What Did Moshe (Moses) and his followers call themselves in the torah?

AliWanted to know how the word "Jew" or "Yehudim" came to be used for people following prophet Moshe in the Torah, did he coin the term and does it bear a geographic relevance? And if Moshe did not call himself a Jew then what he described himself and his followers in the Torah? Update(On why it is...

does anybody out here know the answer? but first read the question!
 
6:53 PM
i think they were just referred to as Hebrews, or as the "children of Israel".
 
Ali
I had read somewhere that the word "Mushalam" ="Mu"+ "Shalom" came in the biblical texts
Fi amanallah
 
mushalam?
 
7:54 PM
@owari The Hadith in your answer here islam.stackexchange.com/questions/5988/… is inauthentic, even according to the (sunni)
 
8:19 PM
@AlUmmat, I added the references, that's not enough? There are not one or two such Ahadeeth seemingly saying almost the same thing, and that's what Shia Ahadeeh say as well.
 
@owari They are all Inauthentic. You have edited so now it is too long for it to be useful. Why don't you just put a shia Hadith?
 
@I have read Bukhari's mentioning the issue, although it only passes over the details and say Imam Ali was sad for not being given a share in his rulership but he knew Abu Bakr was better than him, that's like falling in Love in Dunya and that's far from the personality of Imam Ali, you don't agree?
for two reasons:
1. The Shia Hadeeth have words that would be considered as leading edge words to this website and users and would cause in nothing but disasters
2. It is interesting to know that even some Sunni scholars have admitted in what the Shia scholars believe in, isn't it?
If Shia scholars were saying such they were accused for being rude at the first two Caliphs but now these are the ideas of the Sunni scholars
 
@owari yes, there is only one Hadith in there that is authentic, but the rest, the story of her rib breaking, the threat of burning, and attack on the house are all inauthentic
 
If Shia scholars were saying such they were accused for being rude at the first two Caliphs but now these are the ideas of the Sunni scholars
 
@owari then the ideas are deviant and based on inauthentic Ahadith
 
8:25 PM
Do you have details in authentic Ahadeeth?
 
@owari the story is just that, a story, there is no authentic Hadith that supports it
 
Well, now consider my answer as this:
 
@owari and when you say Sunni scholars, are you refering to Ibn Taymyyah?
 
this is a Shia answer through wordings of some Sunni scholars. Is it ok?
@AlUmmat No, not at all
those cited in the references
 
@owari ok, because I know many who have taken his sayings out of context and said that "even He agrees that this happened".
 
8:28 PM
1 min ago, by owari
this is a Shia answer through wordings of some Sunni scholars. Is it ok?
 
@owari if you do that, then be ready to get a bunch of down-votes
 
God willing I will not care DVs :)
Already I have received a lot of them!
 
@owari ok but it is still wrong, if you want to quote something from a book of Hadith, make sure it is authentic
 
At least Shia will not be accused for being impolite
 
-1: We expect posts to be clearly focussed so that the actual answer is apparent. I can't even tell how much (if any) of this post is even relevant to the question asked. — goldPseudo 8 mins ago
 
8:31 PM
@owari i posit that you have received a lot of downvotes less for the content of your posts than for the fact that they're typically too long and rambling to be useful.
 
What would you think be the result if I write all that I know around that issue from a Shia perspective?
 
@owari that would be fine of course
 
@owari What do you mean?
 
posts are expected, above all else, to be useful.
 
Don't you cover the Shia jurisprudence already?
 
8:33 PM
@Noah I think the result will be somethink like what happened to Ahmadi
@Noah our belief about the first 3 Caliph is quite different than the Fiqh of Shia
 
I dont know what happened to him, but I think you have the rights to express your views here on the site. Doesn't matter if they are Shia or Sunni- as long as mutual respect is taken into consideration.
 
@goldPseudo Why not useful? That's the Shia perspective with wordings of some Sunni scholars (who loved Abu Bakr and Umar)
 
@Noah @owari we are not going against this, but Owari isn't giving a all shia perspective in his answer, He is also adding inauthentic Ahadith not frm the shia books
 
@goldPseudo, @AlUmmat, do you agree with Noah?
 
@owari but is it true? authentic? actually accepted by any sunni scholars?
where's the use in couching facts in somebody else's words?
is the question even asking for a Sunni-only perspective?
 
8:38 PM
now maybe not but in the past who knows? At least according to Shia scholars at the very first decades everyone knew the fact
 
if shia scholars know this fact, and it is recorded in shia books, where is the use in only quoting sunni scholars?
 
@goldPseudo is it equal that a mother blame her son or a stranger blame again her son?
@goldPseudo No indeed, I communicated with Saber not to post such topics to this website, as it would trouble the calm sea here if we really want to answer them fron our firm perspective
TO bring you an example we know the first three Caliphs like the Paul in the Christianity, denying them for the Sunni brothers may imply denying Islam!
 
@owari why would you even do that? what's even the point of being on a Q&A site if you're discouraging questions?
what do you even think we're trying to build here?
 
I think one thing should be cleared up: Everything, Sunni or Shia, should be authentic. Since we preach the religion of Allah in this forum, I think we should pay more attention to the content that we publish. Internet is a big jumble so we have to be careful where we copy stuff from.
 
@goldPseudo this website is distinguished from its other alike of it for being calm and in peace, such issues will activate more the biased people on two sides and you would only watch the war at the fronts, the truth would be lost in that war
 
8:44 PM
@owari do you see any downvotes on his question? any close votes? anything to even suggest that it was not welcome?
 
@Noah agreed
 
I see Ahmadi indeed and what happened to him, and the atmosphere against him to be honest
I prefer to remain here, share and learn
@Noah The Ahadeeth are at least authentic according to Shia, isn't it enough?
 
@owari What happened to Ahmadi was he was not able to share constructively. Do you believe that one should teach yes, but also teach and speak with wisdom?
 
@owari of course it is. why don't you at least quote a shia book then and at least try to demonstrate that? quoting "sunni resources" that are not even considered authentic by sunnis is the opposite of useful.
 
Ahmadi was straight in stating in what he believed, I am trying only to pass over the troubles
 
8:47 PM
@owari then put the shia ahadeeth
 
Well, ok, I choose to yield, I will then put the Shia Ahadeeth although I preferred not to. Hope that it does nothing in destroying the union of the Muslims.
Let me think, however, either to only delete my answer or also to put our own Hadeeth regarding that issue
 
@owari you just have to quote them, quote the book they came from
you don't have to put the whole hadith
 
Sorry it didn't allow me to delete my answer, since it is the accepted one
 
if it's not changing the fundamental point of the post, just edit it.
 
@AlUmmat that's a good idea I believe, thanks
Now meanwhile, what do you think about the update I have put in that Hadeeth? Doesn't that mean Ijmaa3 of the Ummah? Some scholars from both Sects agree upon the same story, why the others do not rely on this coincidence?
 
8:53 PM
@owari also, we do not want you thinking this is sectarianism and stuff, this is not the case, so if it is in your head, please get it out
 
I dont want to take sides here. All I am saying is that we shouldn't misquote things. @owari I think @goldPseudo is right about that. How would you feel if someone copied something from an unreliable Shia source and submitted it as something authentic?
 
@owari I have not heard of any sunni scholar agreeing upon this story, either teh scholar was a Mu'tazili or from the Rawfidh, or sayings of scholars like Ibn Tamyyah's were taken out of context
 
Ok, thanks, convinced to change that post, God Willing
 
I hope you guys come to an understanding. I am outa here.
Salam Alikum.
 
@owari just because a hadith is quoted in a sunni source doesn't mean it's authentic (or even that the author believes it).
 
8:56 PM
@Noah Wa Alaikum salam
 
و علیکم السلام
 
@owari that would be fine, but try to not make answers too long
because if it is too long or short, it reduces it's usefulness
 
if it's long, even a summary of the hadith is fine. verbatim quoting is rarely the best, and never the only way to reference something.
what matters is that enough is quoted/summarized that its relevance to the question is apparent.
 

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