V'dibarta Bam

4:42 AM

hi

@IsaacMoses

@IsaacMoses HI

I had real intention to know what faithful devoted followers were called in biblical times

and about Mushalom i did see that connection which is the reason why i asked this question just to know what people here know about this issue

i did not expect it to be taken as offensive at all , which i feel people are, and it was closed!

i took special care and hard work in formulating the question to adhere it to "ontopic" judaism question

and it was closed as "not real question"?

Seth J

@msh210 enjoy. judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/26263

Ali

People here should should keep aside from their mind "muslim \Islam religion" and answer the question without any bias to mine the truth from the torah

as i have not at all refered to "Muhammadan Islam" one can better answer this question if he keeps this out of his mind this fact

Isaac Moses

@Ali Answer: No.

It's really that simple.

Had you posed the question you actually wanted an answer to in the first place, and clearly, you would have gotten the answer to that question in the first place, and it would have been "No."

Ali

4:57 AM

No,

I wanted answer on "What they were called" and NOT "were they called "Muslims"

ALTHOUGH i had the latter question in my mind but that was not i wanted to ask here

Isaac Moses

@Ali That's what you asked in the first place, and you got the answer to that: "Children of Israel" / "Hebrews." Then, you started fishing for some other term that you insist must exist but, in fact, does not.

Ali

and i also clarified the reason for it

Do you say that words like "Mushalom" or its variants dont appear in the hebrew language in the entire tanak?

have you read it and scanned it for this word?

i dont know hebrew thats why i asked this question

Isaac Moses

@Ali Are you asking a) whether the root Sh-L-M appears in the Tanach, b) what the Israelites were called in the time of Moshe, or c) whether the Israelites were called by a conjugation of this word in those days?

Ali

all

Isaac Moses

Answers:
a) Sure. All over the place. It's a basic Hebrew root meaning things like "peace" and "whole."
b) See above.
c) No.

Ali

5:06 AM

ok now irrespective of context does it occur?

Isaac Moses

@Ali That's (a), isn't it?

Ali

simply speaking does the word Mushalim occur?

Mushalom

Mushilim

Isaac Moses

@Ali No. That's not a Hebrew conjugation

Ali

Muaalim

So what you call in hebrew "One who practices Shalom\peace"

?

Isaac Moses

@Ali Ben-Shalom? I'm not aware of that concept, in particular, showing up in the Torah.

Ali

5:12 AM

בן שלום

?

Isaac Moses

Bottom line: If you want to ask a question about what's in the Torah, please feel free to do so. Ask it as clearly and succinctly as you can. If you feel, after you get answers, that what you really want is the answer to a slightly different question about what's in the Torah, go ahead and ask that as a separate question.

@Ali That's how those words would be spelled. Like I said, I don't think a phrase like that is in the Torah.

@Ali, I have to go take care of stuff IRL. Es-salaam aleikhum.

Ali

מושלם

?

Seth J

@Ali there is no such word. The Mem prefix in Hebrew is not the same as the Mem prefix in Arabic.

Ali

מושלם is present?

Seth J

No

Isaac Moses

5:18 AM

@SethJ <tag> Bye.

Ali

מושלם and what does this mean:מושלם does it occur in torah?

Seth J

@IsaacMoses <shakes fist> Regards to all!

@Ali, it is not a Hebrew word.

משלים is to complete. It is a verb. That's about as close as you're going to get.

It also means to pay.

Ali

so does it appear in torah?

@SethJ wikipedia shows it to be hebrew word

Š-L-M

Shin-Lamedh-Mem is the triconsonantal root of many Semitic words, and many of those words are used as names. The root itself translates as "whole, safe, intact". * Š-L-M * S-L-M * Š-L-M * Salam "Peace" Arabic ' (), Maltese Sliem, Hebrew Shalom (), Ge'ez sälam (ሰላም), Syriac šlama (pronounced Shlama, or Shlomo in the Western Syriac dialect) () are cognate Semitic terms for "peace", deriving from a Proto-Semitic '. The word salām is used in a variety of expressions and contexts in Arabic and Islamic speech and writing. "Al-Salam" is one of the 99 names of God in Islam, and also a mal...

Seth J

No, the word you are asking is not Hebrew

Ali

ok so your verb form? how its pronounced?

Seth J

5:26 AM

Mashlim. And no, to the best of my knowledge, it is not in the Torah.

Ali

not even in tankah?

tanak

Seth J

I confess, I do not have the entire TaNa"Ch memorized.

Ali

but you do have digital searchable versions

?

Seth J

It's used a lot in modern commerce.

I don't.

But I can tell you that it's a verb, not a name.

Ali

And so is Muslim, is can also be seen as a verb :One who is submitting his will to Allah

Seth J

5:31 AM

It would not appear as a descriptor, either.

Ali

@HodofHod i missed the link

!

Seth J

It's an active verb. Like "I am paying now."

Ali

The Quran specifically mentions the term "muslim" for those before prophet Muhammad, including: Noah, Abraham, Ishmael, Jacob, and the companions of Jesus. [see 2:128, 2:131, 3:67, 3:52, 5:111, 10:72]. Thus, the prophet Muhammad was not the founder of islam/submission, but simply continued this universal message as one of many messengers of God.

HodofHod

Wait. It appears that search is unreliable.

Seth J

@Ali I get that that's where you're coming from, but it's not a biblical concept. Not that word, nor that form.

Nor is submission (in the Muslim sense) ever mentioned in TaNa"Ch.

Ali

5:36 AM

Its very much a biblical concept :The word "islam" can be translated as "surrender/submission" (to God). A "muslim" can be translated as "one who surrenders/submits" (to God).

According to The Quran, everything in the universe, willingly or unwillingly has ultimately surrendered to God, thus the basic concept of islam/surrender/submission is as old as the universe itself:

Do they seek other than the system of God, when all things in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly have surrendered to Him, and to Him they will be returned. [3:83]

HodofHod

@Ali If you vowelize the word differently (מֹשְׁלִים) then it does appear, it's meaning is different though. It means "They rule"

Seth J

Yeah, that's not the Bible. That's the Qur'an.

Ali

Say: "We believe in God and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit. [3:84]

Seth J

@hod say what? Ok, <tag> your turn.

Ali

מֹשְׁלִים?

thanks @HodofHod

HodofHod

5:40 AM

@Ali Yes. "Moishlim" rather than "Mashlim". It has a different meaning. It appears in Judges 15:11. Another way of vowelizing those letters is "מְשָׁלִים". This means "parables". It appears in Ezekiel 21.

Ali

מֹשְׁלִים so can you list down verses where it appears and the meaning?

Seth J

ooboy.

@Ali, don't get excited.

Different root. Moshel means to rule. Im is the plural ending.

It's the root m-sh-l not the root sh-l-m

Ali

isnt it m-sh-l-m

Seth J

It looks the same only because one has a Mem prefix and one has a Mem suffix.

HodofHod

@Ali What Seth said. The words have different roots.

Ali

5:44 AM

coz it also appears there is also מְשָׁלִים

Seth J

No. there are only 3 letter roots.

Ali

google.com/…

Seth J

I can't tell what that is. It's appearing backwards for me. I need transliteration.

HodofHod

@Ali Those are all "מֹשְׁלִים". As @SethJ said, that word has a different root (משל). The word you're looking for has the root (שלמ)

Ali

google.com/…

HodofHod

5:52 AM

@Ali Words using that root appear frequently in Torah. Not in the form you want though.

Ali

ז כֹּה אָמַר-יְהוָה גֹּאֵל יִשְׂרָאֵל קְדוֹשׁוֹ, לִבְזֹה-נֶפֶשׁ לִמְתָעֵב גּוֹי לְעֶבֶד מֹשְׁלִים, מְלָכִים יִרְאוּ וָקָמוּ, שָׂרִים וְיִשְׁתַּחֲווּ--לְמַעַן יְהוָה אֲשֶׁר נֶאֱמָן, קְדֹשׁ יִשְׂרָאֵל וַיִּבְחָרֶךָּ. {ס} 7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, his Holy One, to him who is despised of men, to him who is abhorred of nations, to a servant of rulers: kings shall see and arise, princes, and they shall prostrate themselves; because of the LORD that is faithful, even the Holy One of Israel, who hath chosen thee. {S}

mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1049.htm

Seth J

@Ali, that is rulers. Wrong root. m-sh-l (it's "moshel" written in plural)

Ali

so it can be possible that word muslim also has the root m-sh-l

coz prefix m is added

Seth J

No. Muslim, in Arabic, has the root s-l-m.

Hebrew cognate is sh-l-m.

Same root as Shalom.

Ali

and root itself means different in different languages

some may have trigrammatic roots

some may not

so the rules of deriving from roots cannot be the same in all languages

Seth J

6:04 AM

No. And I can't keep this discussion going.

msh210

7:28 AM

@SethJ Thanks. :-)

@SethJ It should in theory be the passive counterpart to mashlim. That said, I don't know whether it exists in fact.

Seth J

2:44 PM

Can someone explain this to me?

judaism.stackexchange.com/badges/44/necromancer?userid=5

I thought I had to answer the question after idleness. Not get upvoted after idleness.

Isaac Moses

@SethJ You did answer the question after idleness: About 84 days after it was asked, which beats the threshold of 60. You only just got the badge because it only just earned its fifth upvote.

Isaac Moses

3:02 PM

@Ali This whole [M-]Sh-L-M hunt is an exercise in futility. If there was something significant in the Torah that signified that the people in it were actually Muslims, it would be conceptual, not some word that happens to look like a different word that would later develop in Arabic. Even if there was such a word in the Torah describing the Israelites, it would be irrelevant if it didn't mean the same thing. ...

3

... Searching for that conceptual resonance would be off-topic comparative religion here (and best pursued On Islam, where I presume it would be on-topic). Searching for formal resonance is just cloud gazing.

Seth J

@IsaacMoses Ah, thanks. How do you see stats like that?

Isaac Moses

@SethJ Oh, wait. I got the number wrong. The correct calculation is simply the date you posted the answer (Mar 4, '11) minus the date the question was posted (Nov 23, '10), which is something like 100 days.

Seth J

@Ali I have to agree with @IsaacMoses (which, I admit, is not terribly uncommon). The languages are similar enough to have similar roots with similar meanings, but the concepts developed within the respective religions that utilize the languages are significantly different. Take, for example, my favorite Hebrew-Arabic linguistic puzzler....

לחם is Hebrew cognate to لحم.

Yet لحم = meat, whereas לחם = bread.

Isaac Moses

@SethJ לחם also = food, e.g. in korbanot. (Also war)

Seth J

There must be some significance there, right? Or maybe not.

@IsaacMoses 'splain?

Or maybe later. My point to @Ali is that there are stark similarities but also very important differences.

Isaac Moses

3:16 PM

@SethJ e.g. Lev. 21:6

Seth J

@Ali, I know you're not here now, but I assume you'll read this later, and this is important: your religion believes that we had the truth but lost our way, and you've picked it up where we lost it. I understand that. What you must understand is that you're not going to find any evidence of that in our scriptures.

Isaac Moses

@SethJ People can and do find evidence for all kinds of stuff they want to in our scriptures. It just may require interpretations that are contrary to (or irrelevant to) our tradition and therefore off-topic here.

Seth J

@IsaacMoses Well, ok, but @Ali's trying to find real evidence, not pseudo-evidence that needs to be distorted beyond any reasonable interpretation. I think that much is clear.

@IsaacMoses Gotcha. That's true. But I don't think that explains or adds to my puzzler. It's just sort of ... there. I think it just means nourishment in some allegorical sense there, like in English I can refer to any sustenance as "bread", even money. My puzzler is why the primary translation of the word is bread in one language and meat in the other.

Isaac Moses

@SethJ Suppose I founded a post-Judaism religion whose central dictate was to [yearn to] live in the Holy Land. I could find all kinds of real evidence that the people in the Torah subscribed to this dictate. I could even give my religion a name like "Eretz" and find that word associated with their activites. And that would be a fine and intellectually consistent use of the Torah for me. Discussion of whether the people in the Torah were adherents of my religion would still be off-topic here.

@SethJ Is that really that hard? It sounds like something that could easily happen in the natural course of language evolution.

@Izzy, Erev Shabbat Shalom

Seth J

4:05 PM

@IsaacMoses Right, I should have specified evidence of what in my comment. He's looking for linguistic evidence to support the idea that the ancient followers of Moshe were Muslims. It's off-topic and futile.

@IsaacMoses It could totally happen. I just can't figure out how it happened. I haven't even come up with a half-baked reason. Anything a quarter-baked I've thought of just sounds ridiculous (to me).

Isaac Moses

@SethJ I guess you're not Ben Drusa-i

@SethJ Yes.

Seth J

@IsaacMoses :)

msh210

9:30 PM

All: Thoughts on the recommendation I quote in my next post here?

@Daniel, determining whether Judaism and another religion match up is off-topic here. (See the FAQ.) This question, as it is now, should probably be deleted. — Isaac Moses 5 hours ago

My opinion: The rule we're working with (from the FAQ list) is "Questions that are extremely off topic, or of very low quality, may be removed at the discretion of the community and moderators". I think the current state of the question qualifies as "very low quality", though IMO the initial state did not.

Ping @IsaacMoses @DoubleAA @ba, all of whom are listed as here at the moment.

Moreover, I don't see a way to improve the post except by reverting it to its initial version, in which state I suspect it won't remain if the OP can still edit it.

Seth J

@msh210 I felt the original question was on-topic (though a near dupe), but it doesn't seem to be what he wanted to know.

msh210

@SethJ Right, yeah.

Monica Cellio

@msh210 I agree that in its current form it's off-topic. In its original form it's on-topic but weak, and it's unfortunate that in helping him edit it we ended up where we are. The original doesn't seem to be what he intended to ask, alas. Between the question (comments, answers) and the extended discussion in chat I think he's got his answer, so we won't be hurting him by deleting. In its current form it doesn't seem likely to be helpful to future visitors.

msh210

9:59 PM

Have a good Shabas, all.

Seth J

10:30 PM

Ditto

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