English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Kosmonaut

7:04 PM

I guess what is lacking is a proper tag wiki that explains this.

RegDwight

Good point.

Kosmonaut

I'll create one based on @nohat's answer to at least give a starting point.

nohat

When I first created grammaticality a couple weeks ago after the Jeff Atwood debacle I was imagining we might get rid of grammar and usage because they seemed overwhelmingly vacuous.

Robusto

Can we put in a feature request that would allow mods and people above a certain rep level to alter a person's gravatar on a a silly or redundant question to ...

nohat

Now I think there is a definitely place for at least grammar. I'm still on the fence with usage

RegDwight

7:07 PM

Don't forget words.

Kosmonaut

I really have trouble figuring out the use of usage.

Robusto

Only they wouldn't see it themselves.

RegDwight

BTW

1

Q: Which is more correct: well or good? within the context given:

"I work equally well as part of a team or as an independent researcher." or "I work equally good as part of a team or as an independent researcher."

Robusto

@RegDwight — voted to close already.

RegDwight

@Robusto That picture wouldn't work, aren't you familiar with cletus?

cletus, New York City

132k 22 200 416

java php jquery javascript css html regex

All-time SO Top 10.

Kosmonaut

7:13 PM

"HEY MA! GIT OFF THE DANG ROOF!"

RegDwight

@Kosmonaut Um, is that what you've come up with for the usage tag wiki?

Kosmonaut

No, but it should be!

We can just have a link to this for the wiki:

►

No text at all.

RegDwight

Well, that would be a classic case for TL;DW.

Users don't watch!

Kosmonaut

It's really for my own entertainment; I'm not concerned with them.

RegDwight

Ah, sorry, my bad.

"The edit was already approved". Harr.

Kosmonaut

7:17 PM

Should this be killed? My instincts say yes:

0

Q: What is the English word for "jutha" [Hindu]?

From The Encyclopedia Britannica: "Food left on plates after eating is defined as garbage (jutha) because it has been polluted by the eater’s saliva. It may be handled in the family.

vocabulary

RegDwight

Ur in my internets approving edits!

Kosmonaut

I approved AND improved!

But my gut says, "wait on this one"

RegDwight

I actually googled for jutha because my intitial reaction was like "ain't jutha the English word for jutha, especially if it's from the Brittanica?"

Kosmonaut

Isn't it?

RegDwight

Turns out Google thinks I'm looking for some girls called Jutta.

Kosmonaut

7:19 PM

Well, Google is pretty smart.

Isn't this question like asking the English word for Bratwurst?

RegDwight

Anyhow, my second thought would be "hello! aren't you answering your own question?"

I mean, the quote actually reads "garbage (jutha)".

Kosmonaut

If not, isn't this a "translate other languages" question?

RegDwight

I am pretty sure it is. That was my zeroeth thought before even opening the question.

But you never know if @ShreevatsaR will come up with something ingenious.

nohat

On the other hand, maybe it's just a single-word-request

RegDwight

Aye, there's the rub.

Kosmonaut

7:23 PM

Yeah, but I think in order to be that, there has to be some English description of the concept.

If it is just a word in another language, then we are just translating.

RegDwight

Well, there is, isn't there? It's a complete quote with bells and whistles.

Kosmonaut

I can't tell if they are saying that jutha is a word for general garbage or only that specific type of garbage

RegDwight

Unless jutha is just any garbage.

Semi-jinx.

Okay, so to sum it up, if it's any type of garbage, then a) the question is off-topic and b) it answers itself.

And if it's only this specific type of garbage that is referred to as jutha, then...

Then... um... it kind of still answers itself and is still kind of off-topic.

Kosmonaut

Yes, seems that way

RegDwight

I mean, there is no concept of "food contaminated by others' saliva" in AE or BE. And IE would be probably just borrowing jutha...

Kosmonaut

7:30 PM

Right.

RegDwight

Damn, I would still like to hear ShreevatsaR's opinion.))

Ah, I see that you've commented now. Good idea. Why keep guessing.

Kosmonaut

Gah!

He answered but didn't give us any information at all

RegDwight

Hahahaha. Awesome.

Kosmonaut

Okay, he answered more.

I think I can update his question with a real question.

May not have an answer but it will be on-topic I think.

RegDwight

Go ahead.

Kosmonaut

7:37 PM

Done

RegDwight

In the mean time, Orbling happened.

Kosmonaut

Yup.

Robusto

@RegDwight — Aww, shucks.

RegDwight

So, Kosmonaut, if you can spare a minute or two, I would like to ask you a question that's been bothering me for quite some time but that wouldn't be a good fit for the main site.

Kosmonaut

Ok.

Sure.

I will try to answer.

Robusto

7:40 PM

Umm, should the rest of us leave?

RegDwight

So far we have Old, Middle, Early Modern, and Modern English. What linguistic rules govern at what point we will have "moved on to the next phase"? Is there a conveniently defined amount of change — say, a vowel shift, a new case or tense, borrowing of 42,000+ words from Chinese or Klingon — that would automatically indicate to a linguist that he's looking at a new language form that deserves its own term?

Or is it as prosaic as "some future linguist proposes a new term/classification whenever he sees fit, and it is either embraced by other linguists or not"?

Robusto

Wow, get a room, you two.

Kosmonaut

There is no single rule or set of rules that definitively make this distinction.

We often can't agree on whether something should be called a language or a dialect either.

So the line gets fuzzy in the middle.

RegDwight

It's just that it's bothering me — and I'm not sure how this is related at all to the previous question, but anyhow — it's bothering me that when that new form of English arrives, the term Modern English, referring to the language we speak today, will start causing problems.

I mean, I suppose Old English, Middle English, and even Early Modern English will still make sense ten thousand years down the line; in fact, we can probably keep them forever. The term Modern English, on the other hand, will most certainly become misleading as time passes.

Kosmonaut

Certainly it won't keep this name forever.

RegDwight

7:46 PM

Have any alternative terms been proposed (not that I am volunteering) that make more sense in the long run?

I mean, the longer we keep it, the more it gets set in stone.

Kosmonaut

Who knows, maybe it will keep the name Modern English, but the current English will be called "English 2.0"

nohat

well, modern architecture and art are now distinct from contemporary architecture and art

not to mention postmodern

Kosmonaut

So maybe up next is Postmodern English? I like the sound of that.

RegDwight

Yeah, actually, what I've been contemplating is that there might be a shift in meaning, so that the word modern in 2500 will not mean contemporary, but rather that's so 2010.

Nohat is spot on with the architecture thing, I haven't thought of that.

Robusto

8:06 PM

Well, might we not even be talking about English at some point?

Kosmonaut

We'll be talking about American.

Robusto

Modern English may be viewed as a proto-Something language from which many other languages will be derived.

Kosmonaut

If you look far enough ahead, then eventually, it will be looked at as a rudimentary method of communication that our less developed ancestor species used...

RegDwight

Or 2012 will happen and prove Kosmonaut so awfully wrong it won't be funny.

Robusto

Well, I wouldn't want to be anywhere in the vicinity when someone proves Kosmonaut wrong. It would be worse than a Mayan-predicted catastrophe, you can be sure of that.

BTW, @Kosmonaut, do you recommend The Man Who Mistook His Wife For a Hat?

It gets good reviews on Amazon.

RegDwight

8:15 PM

Yeah, the problem with Kosmonaut is that he's speaking in universal truths. You take any of his sentences out of context, it still makes sense.

Kosmonaut

@Robusto: Oh, it's fascinating.

And it's so easy to read.

RegDwight

See? I told you.

17 secs ago, by Kosmonaut

And it's so easy to read.

Still works out of context.

Robusto

36 secs ago, by RegDwight

Still works out of context.

That one works out of context too.

RegDwight

Don't let me get paradoxal.

Also, I'm a bit sad that another universal truth is not starred more:

17 hours ago, by Kosmonaut

At parties, I find that if you locate a nearby lampshade, put it on your head, and yell "woo!", people will respect you.

The universe will still be laughing at this one in 2013.

Kosmonaut

I take my party hijinks very seriously.

Robusto

8:19 PM

1

Q: Explain this pickup line

I was at an Model UN conference and often notes like the following get passed. As I'm not a native speaker, I assume that this has to do with some pronunciational issue. Can you please explain what's so funny about this sentence? (Djibouti seemed to be often used in such context.) If Bangkok ...

pronunciation pun joke

I answered, but now I'm wondering if this is a troll ...

Kosmonaut

Oh come on.

RegDwight

Heh, going by the title I thought this was another vehomzzzz, err, Anderson Silva question.

Robusto

Did someone take advantage of my helpful nature?

Kosmonaut

Well... it's impossible to know.

Robusto

Ah, and thanked me in comment without an uptick or a check. The bastid ...

Kosmonaut

8:22 PM

But come on.

RegDwight

Hahaha.

This is so funny.

Robusto

Yeah, really. Feigning non-native status can get me to lower my guard.

Kosmonaut

Well, maybe the person is non-native.

RegDwight

Just hanging out on this site, stalking Robusto is like two times funnier than Will & Grace.

Kosmonaut

@RegDwight: Could you imagine a typical German asking this question?

i.e. not realizing what this might mean?

RegDwight

8:24 PM

@Robusto BTW, he cannot uptick at 6 rep. Takes 15.

I think Djibouti is tricky. In fact, Greece probably even more so.

Kosmonaut

I'm going to give this person the benefit of the doubt.

RegDwight

I was just going to say that I would like to see what his second question will be.

Kosmonaut

My real question is: why would a city invade a country?

RegDwight

WHY NOT???

Robusto

Well, Rome was a city ...

Kosmonaut

8:26 PM

City-state!

RegDwight

My Vatican is in ur Italiz

Robusto

... and it invaded plenty of countries.

RegDwight

Vatikan, now that is a joke for Germans.

Robusto

City, state ... what's the difference among friends?

RegDwight

Vati kann. Mutti auch.

Kosmonaut

8:27 PM

ha ha

Robusto

Und die Kinder?

RegDwight

Die sind das Ergebnis von Vatis und Muttis Können.

Robusto

Das ist selbstverstaendlich.

kiamlaluno

(When in Rome, do like Romans do.)

Kosmonaut

Rome if you want to, rome around the world.

RegDwight

8:28 PM

While we're at it, what is the name of the Chinese minister of traffic? Um lei tung!

And what is the name of the Swedish sex minister? Lasse Samström.

Kosmonaut

Haha

Robusto

Haha.

RegDwight

While the Russian sex minister is - obviously! - called Olga Machslochoff

kiamlaluno

Furgoncin (Chinese track).

It's a shame I know those jokes in Italian.

Robusto

I don't get Russian puns, sorry.

RegDwight

8:30 PM

It's a German pun.

All three of them.

kiamlaluno

I did know the name of the Russian dancer.

Robusto

Oooohh.

RegDwight

Olga, mache das Loch auf.

kiamlaluno

C'ho l'anca sbilenca.

Kosmonaut

cartalk.com/content/about/credits/credits.html

2

Robusto

8:31 PM

And she replies, "Es ist doch auf, du bist zu klein."

Hmm, I think I mean Es ist schon auf.

Kosmonaut

Can't be

She's Russian.

RegDwight

"Daylight Savings Time Manager - Konrad Adenauer"

This list is pure gold.

Robusto

Konrad Adenauer ... didn't he used to have Angela Merkel's job?

Kosmonaut

Staff Groper - Manny Bumsfeldt

RegDwight

Just looking for the corresponding stuff in German...

Robusto

8:38 PM

I see what you did there.

RegDwight

Sportminister: Ping Pong
Pressesprecher: Zei Tung
Jungfrau: Z'Jung Zum-Fick
Dieb: Long Fing
Polizist: Long Fing Fang
Polizeihund: Long Fing Fang Wau
Verkehrsminister: Um Lei-Tung
Oma: Kann Kaum-Kaun

Robusto

Elvis Costello said it best:

But for his private wife and kids somehow
Real life becomes a rumour
Days of Dutch courage, just three French letters
And a German sense of humor

— From "Man Out of Time"

RegDwight

Haha, this is for you, @Kosmonaut:
" **Arabisch**
Glatze: War da mal Haar da?
Fotograph: Alle mal lach'n
Kuhstall: Muh barack
Schwimmen gehen: Alle Mann in die Hallabad
Freibad: Ahallabadohnedach
Schwimmbadbauer: Machamalahalabad
Befehl eines Bäckers an seinen Lehrling: Bagdad
Aufforderung zum Schlafengehen: Gebet
Tontechniker: Machmahall"

Robusto

Feb 11 at 15:10, by Robusto

This chat will self-destruct in 5 minutes. You have 5 minutes to get clear of the chat room.

RegDwight

Yeah, I'm supposed to be playing that game Martha recommended.

Kosmonaut

8:43 PM

Bagdad, ha

RegDwight

I've registered and everything but still haven't managed to read the rules.

Robusto

@Kosmonaut — So, you finally admit it:

yesterday, by Robusto

@Kosmonaut — No points for Car Talk references.

Kosmonaut

I still object to that so-called rule.

RegDwight

I still don't understand Pikop Andropov.

Kosmonaut

Pick up and drop off

RegDwight

8:47 PM

Ah, FFS, drop!

I kept wondering, what the heck is "rop off"????

Kosmonaut

haha

Statistician: Marge Innovera

RegDwight

It kept reminding me of "lip my stockings" from Lost in Translation, but that got me nowhere.

Kosmonaut

Haha

I really enjoyed that movie

RegDwight

Yeah. Nothing to add, really. One of my all-time favorites.

Robusto

It's funny to hear the shit the Japanese photographer says to Bill Murray.

Kosmonaut

8:51 PM

I think I read a translation of that somewhere.

RegDwight

I can only understand like 3% of it.

Kosmonaut

Each time I have seen that movie I really feel like going to visit Japan.

RegDwight

But that's the deal, it's still funny whether or not you have any idea what he's saying.

Robusto

Bill Murray is always funny.

I told you about the time I met him, didn't I?

RegDwight

Feb 8 at 15:26, by RegDwight

Now that is the best movie of all times!

Kosmonaut

8:53 PM

Did you?

RegDwight

You only told me about Roger Ebert.

Robusto

Well, I'll save this one for when I'm not so frickin' busy. Too many people buzzing around here, trying to get a release out. Don't they realize I'm trying to chat here?

RegDwight

Feb 15 at 16:05, by Robusto

Yeah. Sucks how work interferes with chat.

Robusto

Word.

Kosmonaut

2 days ago, by FX_

I've had some spurious clicks with the new Apple touch-sensitive mouse

Just throwing a non-sequitur out there.

Robusto

8:57 PM

Good thing you warned us.

RegDwight

Feb 11 at 15:45, by kiamlaluno

I had to fight against this "mighty mouse". I hate when the batteries get low; it's like to fight against a washbasin with a plunger.

Kosmonaut

That reminds me... I found out something about our apartment. It is central air controlled by an electronic thermostat

Apparently the thermostat device runs on two AA batteries.

I discovered this morning that, if the batteries run out, the thermostat doesn't tell the heat to run and you just don't get heat anymore

Robusto

Status-by-design

You're supposed to intuit when batteries are about to fail.

Kosmonaut

It actually had a low batt message at the bottom

It had enough power to still stay that. But there was no low batt message before it was too late!

Robusto

My favorite UI horror is how Outlook will fail to warn you that your password for the Exchange server needs to be changed. You just suddenly notice that all your mail is 3 days old and you're not getting anything new.

RegDwight

9:04 PM

I was going to say that his looks more like a new question than an answer, but then I think I kind of saved it with my comment. At least I would like to think so.

0

A: Suffixes to create adjectives from nouns

I stumbled on this because of the use of -able as far as turning nouns into adjectives. I'm aware that normally -able should be attached only to verbs... but I submit to you: palatable Hmm. I've been chewing on this for a bit and the only thing I can come up with is perhaps a backformation from...

Then again, some of the other answers already mention -able/-ible.

No idea. Thoughts?

Kosmonaut

The heck? Shouldn't this be its own question?

RegDwight

That was my thinking too.

So I submit it here.

Feb 9 at 11:10, by kiamlaluno

Are there words ending in able that are not built from "[verb] + [able]"?

Some related chat discussion.

Kosmonaut

There are a number of words ending in -able that don't come from verbs.

actionable

affable

Robusto

viable :)

RegDwight

Yup, plus table and fable, see above link.

Robusto

9:09 PM

table

cable

sable

RegDwight

Jinx!

Robusto

stable

Kosmonaut

Oh don't go down that road.

Robusto

And the winner is: able itself!

Kosmonaut

acreable

RegDwight

9:10 PM

But anyhow, what about seasonable, reasonable, fashionable?

Robusto

formidable

RegDwight

Feb 9 at 11:12, by RegDwight

There's fashionable and seasonable. I don't think they were derived from "to fashion" and "to season".))

Kosmonaut

reason can be a verb

Robusto

but not "formid"

RegDwight

Hence my question.

Robusto

9:11 PM

liable

And let's not forget constable.

RegDwight

Feb 18 at 11:59, by RegDwight

That's not X-Men, that's called constables.

But anyhow, what should we do with the drunken sailor? I mean, the well-meaning newbie?

Robusto

yesterday, by Robusto

Is there medication you can take for Googlitis?

Kosmonaut

It just isn't an answer.

RegDwight

yesterday, by RegDwight

Let me google for it.

Kosmonaut

It has to go.

RegDwight

9:14 PM

@Kosmonaut I think we should comment to that extent first. But the question is, and I have never found that out, will she be able to see the comment if we delete it right away?

Robusto

yesterday, by Robusto

@RegDwight — I already did. Turns out it's a topical lotion.

RegDwight

18 hours ago, by RegDwight

I'm so tired, I can only quote.

Kosmonaut

@RegDwight I think so. Can you see something of yours that was deleted?

RegDwight

I guess so...

Robusto

Whenever I delete an answer I always put in a comment as to why I'm deleting.

So that those who can see it will understand.

Kosmonaut

9:15 PM

Yes, a comment would most certainly be included

Robusto

But it remains a mystery to everyone else.

RegDwight

"Deleted answers can be viewed, edited, and undeleted by their original authors, however deleted questions cannot be seen by their authors (unless they have a reputation >= 10K or happen to be moderators)."

13

A: What can cause a post to be deleted, and what does that actually mean?

How can a post be deleted? You can delete your own posts Moderators can delete any post Users with a reputation >= 10K can vote to delete a question after it has been closed for 48 hours. At >= 20K, users can vote to delete as soon as it is closed. It takes 3 votes to delete... more if the ques...

Kosmonaut

Okay, so we're golden

Martha

Can you make her answer into a comment?

RegDwight

Too long, I'm afraid.

Robusto

9:16 PM

0

Q: Please help me pinpoint several British accents.

Hello everyone. I'm a complete newbie on this website, so I apologize in advance if this question is off-topic (even though I did read — well, skim — the FAQ, I'm still not sure). I'm Russian and so is my first language, but I'm a big English enthusiast. For a long time now, I've been practicing...

pronunciation british-english learning accent

RegDwight

Plus I would rather make it into a question.

It would be a good question, actually.

Robusto

Are we supposed to give non-textual questions credence?

"Listen to the tape" kind of questions?

Feels off topic to me.

RegDwight

Yet another Russian... Hm. Must read carefully. Brb.

Oh well. I think (I think!) the key part is this: "but I would really want to learn to also speak several British accents as perfectly as possible". Which would make it a "how to improve my English" question.

Martha

I think it can be edited into an "identify that accent" question.

Kosmonaut

I personally don't think "identify the accent" should be off-topic.

RegDwight

9:20 PM

Um. Yeah. I think I concur.

Kosmonaut

It would be nice if we could embed the audio files (since the question is useless without them), but we can't.

RegDwight

So okay, if we're gonna keep this, we must help him with the links first. He's only allowed to post one, as a new user.

Kosmonaut

Fixed it up.

RegDwight

Argh, midair collision.

Kosmonaut

Hey wait, did I cross wires with someone?

RegDwight

9:24 PM

Can you rollback my crap plz

Kosmonaut

haha, ok

RegDwight

Why can't I rollback my own crap?

Kosmonaut

I dunno

But I think that is my first rollback

RegDwight

Shiny BAAAAADGE!

Kosmonaut

Okay, now it's good.

And I got my badge

Robusto

9:28 PM

Welcome to the Age of Bronze.

RegDwight

For some strange reason I misread that as "Welcome to the Ape of Bronze". Which left me scratching my head for a while.

How do you make that backwards p?

Robusto

Wait, you're not the Ape of Bronze?

The descender on your g is obviously getting truncated.

kiamlaluno

@RegDwight Other answers include -able because I included that suffix, but I then removed it after the comment from @Kosmonaut that made me notice it is not used with nouns.

RegDwight

@Robusto I am, (hence the scratching) but I am not welcoming anyone (hence some more scratching).

Kosmonaut

Yeah, and I should say "pretty much" not used with nouns, but as we discussed, it is not cut and dried. Though it never is

RegDwight

9:31 PM

@kiamlaluno Wait, what? It is not being used with nouns? What have we been listing here for the last half an hour or so?

@Kosmonaut Ah.

Robusto

What have we been listing? To port, good sir.

Does the elections page order the contestants by number of votes received to date?

Oh, never mind. It puts your 1st choice first, 2nd choice 2nd, and 3rd 3rd. Duh.

RegDwight

@Robusto No, it's random.

The order is different each time I reload.

Robusto

Ah, you're right. Must have been a strange coincidence.

RegDwight

BTW, where's our system message gone? I suppose Rebecca killed it by temporarily announcing the THC. @Kosmonaut, can you put it back up?

Kosmonaut

Yeah.

It closes March 1?

Robusto

9:39 PM

Yeah, you should be used to the custodial chores by now, @Kosmonaut. @RegDwight, you are going to be issued a mop and a bucket soon, I'd wager.

Hey, do you guys have to wear blue-collar shirts with your first name over the pocket?

Kosmonaut

No, but I should.

RegDwight

@Robusto I thought I was going to be issued a (broken) John Deere something?

Robusto

I think it should be required.

RegDwight

@Kosmonaut Yeah, way better than GDR.

Robusto

@RegDwight — Got my John Deere 3310 Snow Thrower back with a brand-new engine.

Sorry, wrong number

deere.com/en_US/ProductCatalog/HO/servlet/…

RegDwight

9:42 PM

Damn you @michael, you alway emerge out of Complete Nowhere™ and scare the hell out of me.

1330SE

haha

"If you're close enough to read this name tag you are already dead."

RegDwight

Now I understand what Kosmonaut has been hinting at the whole time with his avatar.

Blue-collar gravatar.

Kosmonaut

9:44 PM

Robusto

@MichaelMyers — And thanks for The Princess Bride reference.

RegDwight

@Kosmonaut Ever seen Goodbye, Lenin?

Absolutely

Thank ThinkGeek.

Great movie.

9:45 PM

Damn, now I'm singing the GDR anthem.

Robusto

And "princess" in that title is a goddamn NOUN!

Don't get me started.

Kosmonaut

Nah.

RegDwight

Plötzlich... Prinzessin!

Plötzlich Prinzessin

Plötzlich Prinzessin (Originaltitel: The Princess Diaries) ist eine Filmkomödie von Regisseur Garry Marshall aus dem Jahr 2001 mit Anne Hathaway und Julie Andrews in den Hauptrollen. Die Handlung erzählt eine moderne Aschenputtel-Variante und basiert auf dem gleichnamigen Buch von Meg Cabot. Eine Fortsetzung folgte 2004 mit dem Film Plötzlich Prinzessin 2. Handlung Mia, ein junges Mädchen mit Kraushaaren, welches am liebsten unsichtbar sein würde und nur einen geringen Beliebtheitsgrad in der Schule hat, erfährt mit 15 Jahren, dass sie Kronprinzessin des Königreichs Tasnovien ist. Nac...

Kosmonaut

@Robusto... in seriousness, it's really not clear-cut.

►

Time for to go!

Spousal birthday celebrations are calling

RegDwight

Feiert schön. Liebe Grüße.

Robusto

9:49 PM

HAVE FUN!

RegDwight

10:23 PM

Okay gals, I suppose I should be sleeping by now. So I'm logging out of chat, for starters, and probably out of the main site in a few minutes. Night.

kiamlaluno

10:35 PM

@RegDwight: Good night.

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…