TeX, LaTeX and Friends

12:28 AM

@R.Schumacher yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay

@R.Schumacher: I am so happy the duck found its way to your home! Congrats again for winning the contest! :)

@HenriMenke: I am finally online, sorry for the delay. :) How would you like the message format to be? I am a little confused. :( Feel free to poke me by email if it's a better way.

Paulo Cereda

9:57 AM

yo'

@PauloCereda that's mean!

Paulo Cereda

@yo' poor cow :(

Christian Hupfer

@yo' Yes, but very true

David Carlisle

10:26 AM

@egreg oh scratch that, i was looking in the preamble...

egreg

:31000162 \show\cdot gives > \cdot=the character ⋅.

David Carlisle

@egreg it depends where you do it:-)

egreg

@DavidCarlisle After \begin{document}, of course

David Carlisle

@egreg or of course not in my case .... (but using ⊍ is better anyway so I should get the tick)

Emilio Pisanty

1:20 PM

> How to cite in LaTeX without the citation appearing in the bibliography

brianbuccola.com/…

Because your blood wasn't boiling enough.

Candidate for the prize for most bizarre thing to want to do in LaTeX?

yo'

@EmilioPisanty not necessarily bizarre, in the Harvard style for instance.

David Carlisle

@yo' but why all the complication why not write ... see Smith (2016) as plain text?

yo'

@DavidCarlisle that's another point of course

David Carlisle

@EmilioPisanty compared to say, programing a mars rover?

Emilio Pisanty

@yo' But then you never give any details to Johnson (2015). What good does it do to anyone?

If you've got a full citation inline, then sure

David Carlisle

1:29 PM

@EmilioPisanty let the user google for it:-)

Emilio Pisanty

@DavidCarlisle Yeah, I mean, who needs bibliographies anyways, right? It's not like the author went to extra trouble to make it harder (and possibly ambiguous) to find what document they were talking about =P

yo'

@EmilioPisanty In a vast majority of cases, you don't have to. I have a big collection of articles in my research topics, and only handful of them have the same authors and publication year.

Emilio Pisanty

Anyways, quick question: is there a way to get bibtex to print the internal key at the end of a citation?

David Carlisle

@EmilioPisanty not bibtex, but the excellent showkeys package will do that, if you just mean for draft purposes

Emilio Pisanty

@yo' Can be, but depends on the details. If there really is only one relevant Johnson who published in 2015, then sure.

@DavidCarlisle Yeah, it's a draft. Pre-draft, even. Bibliography cheat list, more like.

David Carlisle

1:32 PM

@yo' who wrote that package, can you remember?

yo'

@DavidCarlisle which one?

David Carlisle

1 min ago, by David Carlisle

@EmilioPisanty not bibtex, but the excellent showkeys package will do that, if you just mean for draft purposes

Emilio Pisanty

@DavidCarlisle at least naively, it's not working very well

yo'

@DavidCarlisle well, I have no idea what question or whatsoever you speak about :-)

Emilio Pisanty

I just want the key to be printed at the end of the citation.

David Carlisle

1:34 PM

@EmilioPisanty ah well it puts the keys in the margin and you've got long keys and short margins... (showkeys tries not to change line/page breaking when added)

Emilio Pisanty

yeah

I was just wondering if there's a way to call the internal key from the .bst file

David Carlisle

@EmilioPisanty yes sure there must be, but you'd have to edit every citation type to output the field. Better would be just to change \bibitem : \let\oldbibitem\bibitem\def\bibitem#1{\oldbibitem{#1} #1}

@EmilioPisanty plus some extra stuff to make _ etc safe to print

Emilio Pisanty

Yeah, that could probably work easier. They're all articles anyway, though.

David Carlisle

@EmilioPisanty would put the key at the start not end as bibitems like all latex lists doesn't have an easy way to get the end of an item

Emilio Pisanty

Hmmmm. Let me just try and deal with those _s

David Carlisle

1:42 PM

@EmilioPisanty \detokenize{#1} will be enough

Emilio Pisanty

@DavidCarlisle That turns _ into `

David Carlisle

@EmilioPisanty only if you are using a silly encoding:-) \texttt{\detokenize{#1}} then.

Emilio Pisanty

@DavidCarlisle Yeah, that does it.

I definitely messed with the encoding at some point

don't know if I cut it out for this file or not

anyways

it works now

Not on the bibitem, though

\def\bibAnnoteFile#1{\texttt{\detokenize{#1}}}

Don't particularly care for the annotations, or whatever it is the \bibAnnoteFile actually does.

Thanks a bunch =)

Nicola Talbot

2:45 PM

@egreg Would you mind testing texosquery.jar from github.com/nlct/texosquery/tree/master/src/bin? @Paulo has recompiled it for Java5. I'm sorry I forgot to add the -target and -source switches when compiling it.

egreg

3:07 PM

@NicolaTalbot Seems good (running 1.7.0_45-b18)

@NicolaTalbot Maybe just supporting 1.6 is enough; but it seems that also supporting 1.5 is no big deal.

egreg

3:19 PM

@NicolaTalbot By the way, \TeXOSQueryNow returns a category code 11 D, so its result cannot really be fed to datetime, that expects a category code 12 D.

wipet

3:56 PM

@Manuel Essentially "the knowledge about the problems of \scantokens comes from experiences."
I don't know about such "experiences", IMHO it is clear: suppose the file aa.tex with one line:
`foo\noexpand`. Then `\edef\test{\input aa \empty xx}` does exactly the same work like
`\edef\test{\scantokens{foo\noexpand}\empty xx}`. The only difference is that the first example is possible in classical TeX too. And the result `\test` is a macro with body `foo\empty xx`. Note, that
`\empty` is not expanded despite inside `\edef`.

And why the internal file is closed without "file ended" error? Because `\noexpand` touches next
token without checking to "file ended" event. But side effect occurs: this next token is
no-expanded! So, this is very dirty trick with bad side effect.

Joseph Wright

@wipet True, but in practice \scantokens is used almost always \edef\test{\scantokens\expandafter{\test}} or \protected\long\def\test#1{\edef\test{#1}}, i.e. rescanning all of the tokens inside the \edef

@wipet Experience suggests \scantokens was not a great plan

David Carlisle

@wipet but you start off your explanation by comparing to a file usage. If you know the implementation is basically just re-using the file reading internals then the fact that you can get end-of-file errors from \edef\test{\scantokens{foo}} isn't a surprise, but it's the fact that it works like a file that is the surprising feature. the end of file error isn't that useful for files, and for scantokens it's just weird.

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Indeed: \scantextokens addresses this (personally I think LuaTeX should simply have changed the nature of \scantoken, given the fact other much more important stuff has been altered)

wipet

Of course, \scantokens is bad implemented. But it is documented exactly as it is implemented.

David Carlisle

@wipet if people read documentation, this site wouldn't be needed:-)

6

Joseph Wright

4:06 PM

@wipet We all agree on the first part :-)

@DavidCarlisle Good luck finding detailed documentation for a lot of XeTeX!

David Carlisle

@JosephWright weave xetex.web ?

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle Don't forget % at end of lines.

Christian Hupfer

A short question on English usage: Is there a verb to backup (and if so, is the past tense form backed up?)

Joseph Wright

@ChristianHupfer Yes

Christian Hupfer

@JosephWright Thanks!

David Carlisle

4:16 PM

@ChristianHupfer yes but relatively new computer-specific use unlike the older verb phrase back up (which means offer support to, more or less)

Paulo Cereda

@ChristianHupfer Probably. Some people just like to create new verbs, like getting a bunch of words and human-centipeding them together.

^^ oh the irony :)

Christian Hupfer

@DavidCarlisle It's meant in sense of computer usage. I don't provide support for my package ;-)

@PauloCereda Just a few words for you: Spot the looney :-P

Paulo Cereda

@ChristianHupfer you naughty German.

Christian Hupfer

@PauloCereda Naughty Germanness is strong in me :-P

Johannes_B

Take a look at the user name: latex-community.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=95040#p95040

egreg

4:28 PM

@Johannes_B Sono Pazzi Questi Romani

Christian Hupfer

@Johannes_B Definitely as old as @egreg ;-)

egreg

@Johannes_B That's the Italian translation of “Ils sont fous ces Romains” you find in Astérix

Alan Munn

@ChristianHupfer I would prefer the spelling with the space for the verbal form and keep the spelling backup for the noun and adjective forms. So You should back up your computer but I will perform a backup now.

Christian Hupfer

@AlanMunn: Well, yes -- I was only unsure, especially in using the passive form, i.e. 'determined to be backed up' etc.

@Johannes_B:

You are trying to use a really up to date package with your very old distribution. A complete update to 2016 would be in order.

Johannes_B

@egreg Never read those comics. I first thought of Sebastian.

Christian Hupfer

4:32 PM

@Johannes_B: Says the man who still has TL 2013 on his old ubuntu distro

Johannes_B

@ChristianHupfer Yes?

egreg

@Johannes_B I too!

Paulo Cereda

@Johannes_B The crab from Ariel?

Alan Munn

@ChristianHupfer Ok (because in your original query you asked about the verb to backup (no space)).

Johannes_B

@ChristianHupfer TL2015 to be correct.

Christian Hupfer

4:32 PM

@AlanMunn Oh, ok, yes, a typo ;-)

Johannes_B

@PauloCereda No, author of graphicx and other stuff.

Christian Hupfer

@Johannes_B TL2015, how comes? When did that happen? ;-)

Paulo Cereda

@Johannes_B Oh. I thought we were all going to sing Under the sea. :(

Johannes_B

@ChristianHupfer About a year ago. ;-)

Alan Munn

@ChristianHupfer In English we like our separable affixes separated. :)

Christian Hupfer

4:33 PM

@Johannes_B SPQR ... never heard of this? ;-)

Johannes_B

@PauloCereda Oh no, no the sond is in my head. :-)

Paulo Cereda

The Little Mermaid - Under the Sea

@ChristianHupfer No.

S.P.Q.R. (auch: SPQR) ist die Abkürzung für das lateinische Senatus Populusque Romanus („Senat und Volk von Rom“ oder „der (römische) Senat und das römische Volk“). Dieser Schriftzug war das Hoheitszeichen des antiken Rom und ist heute immer noch als Leitspruch im Wappen der Stadt zu finden. Die Legionen des Römischen Reiches führten es auf ihren Standarten. In Rom sind viele Schrifttafeln, Kanaldeckel, Mülleimer und öffentliche Einrichtungen mit diesen vier Buchstaben versehen. == Übersetzung == Wörtlich übersetzt bedeutet Senatus Populusque Romanus eigentlich Der (römische) Senat und die Gesamtheit…

Alan Munn

@PauloCereda This was not at all the song that was in my head.

Paulo Cereda

4:35 PM

@AlanMunn Which one?

Johannes_B

@ChristianHupfer I am not really a person with a wide horizon.

Christian Hupfer

@AlanMunn Believe me, @PauloCereda knows worse songs ;-)

Paulo Cereda

@ChristianHupfer > no I don't <

Alan Munn

@PauloCereda It involved an octopus's garden.

Paulo Cereda

@AlanMunn oooooh in the shade

Christian Hupfer

4:39 PM

@PauloCereda I don't click on that link, it's scratched

Paulo Cereda

@ChristianHupfer do it :)

Christian Hupfer

@PauloCereda No, I don't trust you ;-)

barbara beeton

5:28 PM

@Johannes_B -- oh, my! well, the spqr i knew wouldn't have had to ask questions like that. (brief memorial in tugboat 37:1; much nicer one in the komödie 2016/2; and an interview with himself in the tug interview pages.) greatly missed and lamented.

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda I have evidential proof: 1 < 0 < 201 < 200

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle ooh is it home? :)

Nicola Talbot

5:53 PM

@egreg Thank you :-)

Also, thanks for flagging up the D catcode. I've fixed it on github. Will upload v1.1 soon.

I originally intended writing it in Lua. It was originally just for fetching the locale information. Windows unfortunately stores the locale in the registry not through environment variables. The results from reg are too fiddly to parse in TeX and reg can modify the register so it's not safe to use in restricted mode. Lua's setlocale(nil) returned C for me both on Linux and Windows, which wasn't useful, so I decided to write it in Java.

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda we'd better keep it a secret, don't want people calling foul play and demanding a re-run of the referendum

Nicola Talbot

@DavidCarlisle and @JosephWright Barbara suggested I ask you. Do you think texosquery is safe for restricted mode? I can't think of a way in which it can be abused, but maybe I don't have a devious enough mind ;-)

Hello @PauloCereda! :-)

Paulo Cereda

@NicolaTalbot Hi! <3

@DavidCarlisle Brexit 2: Brexit harder

Nicola Talbot

@PauloCereda Thank you for your email :-)

Paulo Cereda

@NicolaTalbot aww <3

David Carlisle

6:01 PM

@NicolaTalbot when they last added something to the restricted shell list for the gregorio thing they had to answer a lot of queries about safety against buffer overruns etc but probably java is anyway safer for that sort of thing than C

Nicola Talbot

@PauloCereda What do you think? Your Java knowledge is greater than mine.

Paulo Cereda

@NicolaTalbot I think we could run the code against a lot of those convergence tests in order to ensure good practices and lack of potential traps. I can take a closer look. :)

Nicola Talbot

@PauloCereda Thank you!

@DavidCarlisle Thanks.

@PauloCereda Should I just upload v1.1 now or shall I defer it?

Paulo Cereda

@NicolaTalbot Gimme five minutes. :)

@NicolaTalbot: I need more minutes, my connection is slow. :)

Nicola Talbot

6:17 PM

@PauloCereda That's okay. The oven timer's beeping, so I've got to go for a bit as well :-)

egreg

@NicolaTalbot Thank you

Paulo Cereda

@NicolaTalbot ooh cake

Nicola Talbot

6:29 PM

@PauloCereda No, fish :-)

Paulo Cereda

@NicolaTalbot :)

@Nicola: I am running PMD. Most of the rules are covered, maybe we could try to implement some suggestions in order to have a higher overall score. :)

Nicola Talbot

@PauloCereda Sounds good :-)

Paulo Cereda

6:54 PM

@NicolaTalbot I will update the code later on tonight, leave it to me. :)

Nicola Talbot

@PauloCereda Thank you! :-) You're a ~~duck~~ star!

Paulo Cereda

7:20 PM

@NicolaTalbot /blushes

egreg

8:09 PM

@PauloCereda On a scale from 1 to 10, how much do I dislike Wagner?

barbara beeton

8:25 PM

@egreg -- i'm not paulo, and i'm guessing ... how about 12? (i suspect you don't like stravinsky either, but would you please make an exception for pulcinella?)

Christian Hupfer

@egreg Robert Wagner? Cool actor! ;-)

egreg

@barbarabeeton No exception, sorry. The grade is, at least, 20. The radio had the Tannhäuser Ouverture: after hearing this extremely boring piece of sh… er, music, how can people survive several hours in a theater?

barbara beeton

@egreg -- well, wagner did do better than tannhäuser, for example meistersinger. (and anna russell does a really fine job of cutting the ring cycle down to proper size.) but you won't accept pulcinella? the themes and songs are allegedly cribbed from pergolesi, and it's about as non-20th century as one could imagine, and they're just lovely. i'm desolate!

egreg

@barbarabeeton I much prefer the original. ;-)

@barbarabeeton The proper size of the Ring? Well, I have an idea…

barbara beeton

8:43 PM

@egreg -- if you have never experienced it, the whole thing is on youtube. i think you'd find her views very close to your own.

egreg

@barbarabeeton Zero minutes?

@barbarabeeton youtube.com/watch?v=cf8uyUtK3fA

barbara beeton

@egreg -- yes, i know that. borge presented something very like that at the newport music festival a few years before his death (he was a good friend of the festival impresario) -- lots of fun. actually, i'd been familiar with this since high school; another legacy from my sister.

@egreg -- a little longer, but wagner distinctly comes off much diminished.

ahorn

9:30 PM

Is there anything wrong with defining a new environment with a number in the name, such as "2cols"?

David Carlisle

@ahorn no, although it's rather uncommon

ahorn

Why should I not do it?

@DavidCarlisle

egreg

@ahorn It's just uncommon, not wrong by any means

David Carlisle

@ahorn as I say it's not wrong, just uncommon so people may be surprised and of course it does make it harder to use the sometimes useful \foo, \endfoo form, although that is also true of * forms like tabular*

ahorn

@DavidCarlisle thank you, I didn't know about the \foo \endfoo form. Is it uncommon because other computer languages tend to steer away from numerals in names?

David Carlisle

9:43 PM

@ahorn no, simply I think because tex doesn't allow them in command names normally so you can't have \2col you can have \begin{2col} because it constructs \csname 2col\endcsname which would be the same as \2col if 2 was a letter (catcode 11)

ahorn

@DavidCarlisle alright, thanks for the advice.

Johannes_B

@StefanKottwitz Delete if you want to. Had to got it out of my head golatex.de/viewtopic,p,85256.html#85256

@ChristianHupfer ^^^^

Paulo Cereda

11:54 PM

@egreg 9. :)

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$TeX - LaTeX$ TeX, LaTeX and Friends